What do you want in a new overhaul mod?

[ArtMurder]

I've actually been working on the idea of merging Skyrim Redone and Requiem for a while, I got permission from both modders/mod teams, and made some progress, but kinda stopped after i lost all my work do to using a faulty 3rd party program to do it. >_>

 

I've recently made a quick concept mod to get a feel for perks, and have been strongly considering diving back into this project.

 

I personally agree with you on the comparison, as I see skyrim redone as "funner" but requiem as "incredibly immersive" and really making skyrim feel... alive. So my goal, was to transplant Skyrim Redone's perks into Requiem. Basically, SkyRe gameplay, but with the requiem, hard core gritty world feel. Leaving requiem intact enough for you to still be able to manually control the difficulty from the MCM, but being able to use Reproccer to balance in new items. That, or just use a different method of re-balancing armor and weapons then either of them that doesn't require a patch, something I've already experimented with.

[Arrogancy]

So, the problem I had with SkyRe's perks is they really seemed to break immersion for me. Like, Florentine Combat making you invincible for a short period. It felt more like I was playing DoTA than an RPG. I can definitely understand why someone might want to combine them, but for me I think it would break the immersion a lot.

 

mrnexusmods27, don't apologize! I had linked to the page only to show you that I'd thought about the problem in detail. By all means keep the suggestions coming.

 

And grogthenailer, I really appreciate your praise - I'm sorry that I didn't mention that in my earlier response. It means a lot!

Edited August 23, 2014 by Arrogancy

[Kestrellius]

Hm...I'm thinking it might be a good idea to merge certain skills, to make room for other skills -- things like mining, or other things. (This is assuming that it's still impossible to change the number of skills.) For example, I feel like you could safely merge one-handed, two-handed, and block into one "melee" skill. Now, hear me out. It would be nice if there were ways to have, say, two-handed skill increases also increase one-handed slightly, since it's a reasonably similar skill, but I'm not sure that's possible. So instead, it might be good just to merge those related skills into one, and use perks to specialize. Same with heavy and light armor -- sure, they're not the same thing, but learning to use light armor would give you a better understanding of how armor works overall. So, you could just use the perk system to create a sense of different skills, while leaving room for new skills.

 

Speaking of which. Does anyone actually use Pickpocket? It seems like its only use is basically as an exploit, almost, to get things that you can't otherwise get in-game, like unique items, despite the fact that you should probably be able to just offer the guy twenty thousand gold and get it from him. I find it far too unreliable to use on a regular basis. (Plus I don't play thieves much, so there's that.) I'm just thinking that instead of going Skyre's route and merging lockpicking and pickpocketing (but if you do, can you not name it "fingersmith"? Seriously, whose idea was that?), you could just remove both of them. Lockpicking is so irrelevant that you could just replace it with a flat chance, or a quasi-skill in an MCM. And, well, I just talked about pickpocketing, so that would really depend on whether anyone else uses it more than I do.

[Arrogancy]

I've actually already merged Pickpocket and Lockpicking into a new skill called "Thievery". Lockpicking is more relevant. You need to invest a perk point to be able to pick locks at all. Expert and Master locks will require further perks.

 

Not going to merge block, two-handed and one-handed together. That would create a hole larger than I could actually plug with new stuff. Also, one and two handed are very different combat styles. Merging them would not be productive.

[Mattiewagg]

I've actually already merged Pickpocket and Lockpicking into a new skill called "Thievery". Lockpicking is more relevant. You need to invest a perk point to be able to pick locks at all. Expert and Master locks will require further perks.

 

Not going to merge block, two-handed and one-handed together. That would create a hole larger than I could actually plug with new stuff. Also, one and two handed are very different combat styles. Merging them would not be productive.

Pickpocketing definitely needs some more relevance.

I'd say stealth might need to be a bit different - you should be able to play the game as a thief using a dagger, but it would definitely be challenging. A viable option, but difficult, and yet, as you grow in skill, it would become slightly easier. In the sense that you have to work hard to use it, but it definitely pays off in the end.

[Grogthenailer]

 

Grogthenailer, regarding perk trees, it’s not very helpful to just read that there should be three branches in archery that do A, B and C. What if someone else says there should be two branches that do X and Y? Or four branches? I can’t do very much with that. What really is valuable is if you tell me what you value, and what goals you’d like me to try to achieve. Your statement that combat should be “tough but fair” is a great example of this - that’s information that I can really use. Advice about specific perk trees is still welcome, but for it to help, it really needs to be presented with a goal that justifies it, or a problem that it solves.

For example, this would be bad:

“You should have an extra branch in Alteration devoted to Mage Armor.”

Whereas this would be excellent:

“In Vanilla, Mage Armor isn’t really a realistic alternative to heavy or light armor, even though there are perks that make mage armor better when you aren’t wearing armor. Ebonyflesh cast with all the perks is just 300. This is much lower than what roughly the same perk and skill investment in, say, light armor, would get you, and it both starts off worse and never gets better. I’d really like you to make Mage Armor better so that it’s a realistic alternative to the other armor options.”

Point taken, I was a bit vague eh, I will try to explain one tree (Archery) where I believe many players love to use bow/xbows and like that part of the gameplay. What you have with current archery is that you really do not have a good clear accuracy range. You have things like zoom in but does that really help with accuracy? (looks cool though). I also tend to lean towards realism in combat so that is very important to me.

Ok so archery:

Archery: I would like to see 3 branches – Force - Speed - Accuracy.

Force: The amount of damage done on hit, force of the blow. Things you would have in this branch of it, It would flow like this part of the tree:

1. A)Stamina Used to draw string (adding points here means you can hold string back longer and not tire as fast) EG - 0 points here means you will tire very quickly drawing string, 1 point means you will not drain stamina as fast (25% less), this would go to 75% or so, (you would always use some stamina to pull back) last part might be ability to use heavy bows

B) Above this in the same branch is damage. 1st part: Chance to stagger+damage - 2nd part: an increase over part 1 - 3rd part: same -4th part: damage + knockdown - 5th part: damage + knockdown+heavy armor piercing

Speed: The speed you draw an arrow (or load xbow). The speed you move with drawn bow, distance arrow flies:

A) 1st part: Draw arrow 10% faster to ready (able to shoot) (can never fire an arrow unless it is in ready position) - 2nd part: Draw arrow 25% faster to ready - 3rd part: Draw arrow 50% faster to ready. Of course you could in differences between light and heavy bows (and consider Xbows). Now add how fast you can move with bow sets of points. Finally the distance+speed arrow can fly

Accuracy:

A) Sway of bow: How much bows sways when aiming - 3-5 points - each points lesson sway

B) Aiming recticle - think of a circle, or like a modern shooter. It expands while moving and lessons while standing still. It never goes to a pin point. The arrow within this circle can go any where within this circle(random) but it has to go with the circle. So the smaller the circle, the better the chances of a good and solid hit. Points added will decrease circle

 

[Arrogancy]

Matthias, isn't vanilla sneak like that? Most enemies will die in one sneak attack - you just need to get really high sneak in order to kill groups without first drawing people away. Am I missing something?

 

Grog, I still don't really understand what your perk tree is trying to address. It seems to me that every dedicated archer is going to want all of these perks, whereas a dilettante isn't going to see much advantage in getting anything other than sway reduction. At that point, why are force/speed on different branches, if anyone who's going to take one branch is going to take the other one also?

 

What's your goal here? Like, what failings in the vanilla archery tree makes you want to redesign it? What sort of improvements are you trying to effect?

[Grogthenailer]

Hmmm ok. I guess I am addressing that archery does not address aiming that well really. Which is the meat of archery. It tends to have very little to do with aiming and many other considerations of archery. I guess I wanted to address some aspects of it, strength/stamina part, accuracy and arrow dynamics.

[Arrogancy]

Ok, that makes sense.

 

So, with regards to aiming, drift is definitely an option, but it has some trouble - it's hard to apply to NPCs, and if you throw a lot of drift at players without letting them get rid of it really quickly, they'll just ignore archery, or sort of resent it as a perk tax. So it's something that you see briefly before you perk up archery, and then never again for the rest of the game.

 

There are other mechanics available though. The current archery tree I've got on the design doc uses crit chance, armor penetration and skill-based damage increases to represent the gains from better aiming. Do you find that addresses the problem?

[deRusett]

This is a Great topic. I'll have to visit back a few times as I put more thought into it.

 

But for me I would love to see a reworked Skill/Perk Tree. I like playing with Skyrim Uncapper, and I like being able to level up, but I wish each tree needed more perks as I leveled and I could level up a bit faster. Right now we have 18 Skills to choose from,

 

Alteration / Conjuration / Destruction / Illusion / Restoration / Enchanting / Archery / Block / Heavy Armor / One-Handed / Two-Handed / Smithing / Alchemy / Light Armor / Lockpicking / Pickpocket / Sneak / Speech

I'd like to see them changed to

 

Combat Magic - A Perk Tree that encompasses Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, The perk tree would be like a Trident with a few common perks then branches to specialize

Knowledge Magic - A Perk Tree that encompasses Illusion, and Restoration, Enchanting This tree should cross over itself needing some Restoration knowledge before being able to Enchant Restoration, needing Illusion knowledge before being able improve armour or something along those lines

 

Now instead of 6 Perk Trees we have 2 main ones for Mages. Though the perk trees should be more involved with multiple improvement options per node of the perk tree

 

 

Smithing - The art of working with Metal, Making Metal Armor and Metal Weapons
Crafting - The art of working with leather, cloth, Bone, Wood.

 

Being a Crafts Person should require more work. Becoming a Master BlackSmith should not make me a master leathersmith or fletcher, I should have to work both the forge and the tanning rack to gain the skills to make the best armours and weapons.

 

Slicing - Using swords and daggers be they 1 handed or 2 handed, you know how to weild a sword, and can specialize in your favourite blade type
Bashing - Hammers, Mace, Clubs, fists. you Like to smash things,
Chopping - an Axe, a Scythe, you can decapitate in a single swing of a 2 handed battle axe or chop through a locked door with furry!
Projectiles - shooting a bandit in the knee just to watch him fall, you are calm and can focus at range. People die before you're even in sight

 

3 Combat skills extended to 4, I've never liked that my skills with a 1 handed sword meant nothing with a 2 handed sword, but I could pick up a 1 handed mace and be a pro. Your weapon type is based on the type of weapon not how you wield it.

 

Elocution - Speech craft, and enhancements to Dragon shouts. make this a tree worth putting points into. (I'd like reading all books to actually improve this tree. some exponential formula would need to be implemented so you don't gain skills to fast but reading improves vocabulary and ability to express oneself)
Alchemy - Traditionally boring, Alchemy needs to have a combat element, a danger element, and a random element. Making explosive vials to throw, acids to drop on the ground causing damage as people walk through them, When mixing potions with unknown ingredients the risk of explosions or self poisoning needs to happen, and even with the exact ingredients there needs to be a chance of failure that is reduced via perks.
Quick hands - An amalgamation of Pick Pocket and LockSmithing, really lock smithing needs 3 perk nodes, Locks are easier to pick 3 levels on this nod, Lock Picks are stronger 2 levels on this node, Craft a key after picking a lock. Pickpocket would have the same perks as vanilla mostly because I've never really put any thought into this.
Blocking - Elemental protection should be applied to total armour number when shield is equipped even if it isn't blocking, Blocking should slow time down earlier and at more gradual rates
Heavy Armour - perks should focus on defensive/strong play making a player more tank like
Light Armour - Perks should focus on stealth/offensive play allowing to run more, sneak better, avoid being hit
Clothing - Perks for Mage armor to give it value over light armour, perks for Cloaks to protect you better in weather,
Stealth - More perks, less powerful! enemies should look for you longer and heavy armor should never be fully silent, perks should enhance Stealth skills such as close combat sneak attacks, long ranged attacks, blending into the surroundings, buffing potions/spells/scrolls that pertain to invisibility, silence.
Cooking - I don't know I just want the cooking element to be more involved and worth more to a needs mod. A basic cook can mix 2 ingredients, a experienced cook can mix a 3rd improving the meal and the buffs associated with it, a Chef can use 4 ingredients again improving the meal and buffs. a 2 ingredient soup might tide you over for 4 hours before you need to eat again, a 4 ingredient soup you can go 8 hours, and it warms you up from the cold quicker. 2 ingredients can give 1 buff, 3 can give 2 buffs, 4 can increase duration of the buffs.
Player - This perk tree is about improving your player in more general ways, increase Carry Weight 25/50/75/100, Increase disease resistance25%/50%/75%/100%, Increase Movement speed 5%/8%/10%/15%, Strong Stomach(eat raw foods/non race foods)

 

Sorry these aren't more fleshed out, Its after midnight and I'm just thinking these through

 

I would want Mods like Piratelords Loot Adjustments http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/17930/? to be baked in, because looting barrels/bags in vanilla skyrim is kinda boring

I want to enjoy being immersed in the game, having so many options of where I could go what I could do, what I could find. I would like some dungeons/caves to be unleveled so I can't just go anywhere and win, but having some leveled especially quest ones makes sure I don't come to one and it be too easy because I got their at level 50 when you expect me to get there at level 25,

 

I'll come back and talk more when I'm not falling asleep