What do you want in a new overhaul mod?

[Mattiewagg]

Matthias, isn't vanilla sneak like that? Most enemies will die in one sneak attack - you just need to get really high sneak in order to kill groups without first drawing people away. Am I missing something?

 

Grog, I still don't really understand what your perk tree is trying to address. It seems to me that every dedicated archer is going to want all of these perks, whereas a dilettante isn't going to see much advantage in getting anything other than sway reduction. At that point, why are force/speed on different branches, if anyone who's going to take one branch is going to take the other one also?

 

What's your goal here? Like, what failings in the vanilla archery tree makes you want to redesign it? What sort of improvements are you trying to effect?

I don't know. Maybe a bit more challenging? For example, when you first start the game, even if I'm a scrawny Breton guy, I can one-hit kill a draugr with a knife at level 2. I understand why that would make sense, kind of, but my character has no experience. It's unlikely he'd know exactly how to wield the knife and stay so quiet. I feel like in the vanilla game if you stay in the shadows and sneak-walk, nobody can hear you even if you suck at sneak. I feel like your one-handed skills should factor more into how you can sneak attack people, even more than in the vanilla game, so it seems like your character really has to know how to assassinate people and such. It's not just about stabbing them. It's about attacking them in a certain way that will kill them quickly and quietly.

 

Also, I can't remember if this is part of the vanilla game, but power attacks should be louder, and depending on what type of weapon you're wielding it should make more noise (this is probably part of the base game, but I can't remember, I haven't played in forever - just been modding and playtesting).

[Arrogancy]

deRusset, I believe I've mentioned in this thread that specific perk tree suggestions are not helpful unless they include the reasons for the changes. If you could offer me the reasons that are motivating these changes, that would be much more helpful.

 

About the only way I would use an entirely new tree without justification is if you specified every single perk in the new tree, and I liked it better than the ones I have now.

 

Matthias, you raise a good point - sneaking in vanilla was super easy, and sneak attacking is pretty great right out of the box. We'd like to keep sneak attacking really great out of the box, but we'll be making it quite a lot harder to sneak.

[Mofakin]

Problem with a new Overhaul is, ohers are so far away in development, it's hard to keep up with them. Apart from that I wouldn't want any other Overhaul then mine. Overhauling is a two edged sword, there's a high chance that even the best Overhaul will have things that you don't want. MCM is godsend in that matter, as it allows for a huge range of customization options.

 

For a name, how's about:

 

Skysome Overhaul

Beyond Skyrim

Skyrim Improved (well, technically this name's already gone)

42

Skyrim and the SOns of Burden...whatever...:D

[deRusett]

deRusset, I believe I've mentioned in this thread that specific perk tree suggestions are not helpful unless they include the reasons for the changes. If you could offer me the reasons that are motivating these changes, that would be much more helpful.

 

About the only way I would use an entirely new tree without justification is if you specified every single perk in the new tree, and I liked it better than the ones I have now.

 

Matthias, you raise a good point - sneaking in vanilla was super easy, and sneak attacking is pretty great right out of the box. We'd like to keep sneak attacking really great out of the box, but we'll be making it quite a lot harder to sneak.

 

Fair point, I am working on a spread sheet now since my ideas last night to share with you

I'll include more detailed reasons for each skill tree and why I merged them.

The over all goal I had with my skill tree change was to open up more play styles for players

I enjoy being a smith but find it far to easy to level it up and make anything I want really early in the game the changes I'm proposing would make me have to commit far more perk points, and thus have a much greater level before I can start making dragon armor

 

I have wanted to play an Alchemist but really it isn't possible, it is boring and really just a money farming game. So my proposal ads more elements to Alchemy giving risks to being one, even as a money farmer.

 

I've never liked that I can be a master in 1 magic skill and know absolutely nothing about another. While I majored in Software & Electrical Engineering in University, I shared many courses with the Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers and Computer Science majors. so I want to merge the magic schools while still having specialization I merged 6 Magic related items (Enchanting included) into 2 trees. Crazy number of perk points to use in those 2 trees. but The basics are shared as you grow your skills.

 

I Wanted to Breakdown Weapon skills based on the way you use the weapon, not how many hands you use, Ones skills with a Claymore are more related to the skills with a Cutlass than that of a Battle Axe.

 

I want Cloaks, and robes to have their own skill perk category, The material the robe or cloak is made from can have buffs when perks are learned to maximize them make robes worth while as right now a cloak and light armor is the go to for a mage really.

 

And I want Cooking! So many foodstuffs in the skyrim world, so much potential for Food to be used in an immersion game with a needs module but I've always felt it meh, a Food perk tree could add depth to cooking and make selling to inn keepers something worthy, Quests could be made to make specific meals to gain favour with a Jarl or food used in conjunction with speech could convince guards to eat a sleeping potion. So much depth could be had for a minimal combative player

 

 

The foundation of the mod change would come from the Perk tree change.

by Changing ingredient properties one doesn't have to remove Fortify Smiting and Fortify Enchanting, Just make the ingredients required much harder to find. Adding Ingredients like Soul Gem dust which is needed for Fortify Enchanting, and Ebony Dust for Fortify Smithing, Both can be specially placed items in hard to get chests in high level dungeons as well as random possibilities when mining for Soul Gems or Ebony Ore. Potions so rare can now be either used to fabricate great equipment, or they can be sold because they bring are valuable.

 

For Trading and Bartering http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/34612/? Trade and Barter by kryptopyr is fantastic.

I would like to see the Knowledge section enhanced, And more penalties such as Imperial/Stromcloak camps pay less and sell for more for goods the higher your player level is without picking a side. If you are level 10 maybe the give you -5% for an item, but at level 20 they give you -10% if you've yet to choose a side. at level 50 -25%! they want you to pick a side!

( Bold I added)

 

KNOWLEDGE - It pays to know your merchandise. The more knowledgeable you are about the goods you're selling, the better prices you'll get when dealing with a similarly knowledgeable merchant. When you understand your product, you know it's true worth and you can negotiate better deals.

• Blacksmiths will respect your skill at the forge and give you better prices the higher your Smithing skill.
• Apothecaries recognize your knowledge of alchemical properties and will give you better prices the higher your Alchemy skill.
• Spell merchants respect your knowledge of the arcane and will give you better prices the higher your Magica Knowledge skill.
• Fletchers recognize a fellow marksman and will give you better prices the higher your Archery skill.
• Inn keepers will respect your skills as a cook and give you better prices based on your cooking skills
• General Goods sellers always pay less for Goods

 

I need to get my perk tree written and detailed and address ingredients and changes to them this week if you're open to the ideas I've put down.

[Kestrellius]

Concerning tree merges: okay, fair enough. However, I have to give an emphatic "no" to deRusett's idea of merging the magic trees into two. Magic should be more prevalent, not less; it was overall not nearly as useful as it should have been in the base game. Destruction, primarily. The difference is especially obvious at endgame, but Destruction is never on par with other combat methods at any point in the game. The zero-magicka enchantments really don't matter, because you can still do more damage with basic attacks from an average weapon of equivalent level, which don't use up an attribute even without enchantments. Seriously, it's absolutely nonsensical. At a fairly low one-handed skill level, a swing with a mid-level sword does more damage than an Expert-level Destruction spell, if I recall.

 

And you can boost melee damage nigh-infinitely with smithing, whereas Destruction is capped at 150% of its base damage, forever. Unless you use potions, but seriously. You have to use both heavy enchantments and powerful potions just to make it competitive? No.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Kestrellius

[deRusett]

Concerning tree merges: okay, fair enough. However, I have to give an emphatic "no" to Russell's idea of merging the magic trees into two. Magic should be more prevalent, not less; it was overall not nearly as useful as it should have been in the base game. Destruction, primarily. The difference is especially obvious at endgame, but Destruction is never on par with other combat methods at any point in the game. The zero-magicka enchantments really don't matter, because you can still do more damage with basic attacks from an average weapon of equivalent level, which don't use up an attribute even without enchantments. Seriously, it's absolutely nonsensical. At a fairly low one-handed skill level, a swing with a mid-level sword does more damage than an Expert-level Destruction spell, if I recall.

 

And you can boost melee damage nigh-infinitely with smithing, whereas Destruction is capped at 150% of its base damage, forever. Unless you use potions, but seriously. You have to use both heavy enchantments and powerful potions just to make it competitive? No.

 

I actually agree with you that more emphasis is needed in Magic which is WHY I wanted the tree merger.

I haven't finished conceptualizing the full Magic tree merger yet but to touch on destruction I'll share what I've done, I have never used Alteration magic so I'm doing a play through right now and am investing into it a little to see what I like/hate to finish this tree off.

Combat Magic tree: 
Novice Combat lvl1 /Skill	0	
Reduction in Magica cost for  Novice Spell casting by 30%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 10%  

Novice Combat lvl2	/Skill 10	
Reduction in Magica cost for Novice Spell casting by 50%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 20%  

Novice Combat lvl3	/Skill 20	
Reduction in Magica cost for Novice Spell casting by 60%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 40%  

Apprentice Combat lvl1	/Skill 20	
Reduction in Magica cost for  Apprentice Spell casting by 30%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 10%  

Apprentice Combat lvl2	/Skill 35	
Reduction in Magica cost for Apprentice Spell casting by 50%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 20%  

Apprentice Combat lvl3	/Skill 50	
Reduction in Magica cost for Apprentice Spell casting by 60%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 40%  

Adept Combat lvl1	/Skill 50	
Reduction in Magica cost for  Adept Spell casting by 30%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 10%  

Adept Combat lvl2	/Skill 60	
Reduction in Magica cost for Adept Spell casting by 50%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 20%  

Adept Combat lvl3	/Skill 70	
Reduction in Magica cost for Adept Spell casting by 60%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 40%  

Expert Combat lvl1	/Skill 70	
Reduction in Magica cost for  Expert Spell casting by 40%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 20%  

Expert Combat lvl2	/Skill 80	
Reduction in Magica cost for Expert Spell casting by 50%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 40%  

Expert Combat lvl3	/Skill 90	
Reduction in Magica cost for Expert Spell casting by 70%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 60%  

Master Combat lvl1	/Skill 90	
Reduction in Magica cost for Master Spell casting by 40%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 20%  

Master Combat lvl2	/Skill 95	
Reduction in Magica cost for Master Spell casting by 50%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 40%  

Master Combat lvl3	/Skill 100	
Reduction in Magica cost for Master Spell casting by 70%  Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration, Increase in Novice spell strength by 60%  

Dual Casting 	/Skill 25	
Dual Casting any of the Destruction, Conjuration, Alteration spells increases effectiveness by 250% and  increases Magica Cost by 200%

Destruction Augmented Flames	/Skill 30	
Fire Spells do more damage based on Player level (1.5 * player level more damage)

Destruction Augmented Frost	/Skill 30	
Frost Spells do more damage based on Player level (1.5 * player level more damage)

Destruction Augmented Shock	/Skill 30	
Shock Spells do more damage based on Player level (1.5 * player level more damage)

Destruction Rune Master	/Skill 40	
Grants caster the ability to place runes 5 times further away

Conjuration Mistic Binding  lvl1	/Skill 30	
Bound weapons do 10% more damage

Conjuration Mistic Binding  lvl2	/Skill 50	
Bound Weapons do more damage based on Player level (1/2 player level more damage)

Conjuration Mistic Binding  lvl3	/Skill 70	
Bound Weapons will banish summoned creatures and turned raised ones

Conjuration Summoner lvl1	/Skill 30	
Can summon Atronachs, raise undead or Dremora lords twice as far away

Conjuration Summoner lvl2	/Skill 70	
Can summon Atronachs, raise undead or Dremora lords three times as far away

Conjuration Concentration lvl1	/Skill 40	
Double duration for conjured Atronachs, Dremora Lords, and Reanimated Undead

Conjuration Concentration lvl2	/Skill 95	
The power to summon two Atronachs, reanimated zombies or Dremora Lords  

Conjuration Concentration lvl3	/Skill 100	
The power to summon Three Atronachs, reanimated zombies or Dremora Lords  

Conjuration Necromancy	/Skill 70	
Reanimated undead have 100 points more health

Conjuration Potency 	/Skill 80	
Conjured Atronachs are 50% more powerful

From the tree you can see that at level level 50 if I had dedicated investments in perks into combat magic

The Novice Flames spell which does. "A gout of fire inflicting a base damage of 8 points of fire damage per second. Targets on fire take extra damage." at 14 magica per second. would now cost 6 Magica per second and do 20 damage per second

That is using 3 Perk points to Novice combat lvl1 - lvl3 and one perk point for Destruction Augmented Flames

Add dual casting and dual cast the spell at 18 Magica per second you're doing 64 per second.

I think that tying the increase to the character level in Destruction Augmented Flames helps keep combat magic spells growing in strength as you level up

 

You'll also notice I buffed Master and Expert level skills a little more to give more of a reason to use those magics at higher levels vs just continuing using Novice and Adept spells

 

So a FireStorm cast by a level 50 with 100 Combat Magic skill points invested in Destruction Fire could cast FireStorm: default 100 point fiery explosion centered on the caster. The closer a target is, the more damage they take for 846 magica , Invested in the perks a 280 point fiery explosion centered on the caster the closer the target is the more damage they take for 257 Magica

 

I believe this helps increase magic strength and usefulness as a Destruction mage you've invested in Alteration and Conjuration at the same time so you can cast those spells with some skill level on your first try later in game.

[Arrogancy]

deRusset, I do not agree with your premise that merging the trees emphasizes magic more.

 

Currently we're addressing the problem of "spells never get stronger" in the mod by using a concept called Spellpower. When you choose to improve your magicka at level up, you gain 1 spellpower. Spellpower improves the efficacy of all spells, provided you've gotten the mainline perks in those spells' trees. We like this feature because, in addition to solving the spell scaling problem, it presents a meaningful choice to the player regarding what kind of focus they want to give. (Health and Stamina have similar stats, Brawn and Finesse, which contribute to other skills and abilities). It also preserves the differences between the schools, which we feel are important both for flavor (illusion feels different than destruction) and balance (alteration and destruction shouldn't level together for the same reason two-handed and heavy armor shouldn't level together - it would be too powerful).

 

The perk list you've presented generates far more problems, in terms of balance, flavor and interest, than it solves. It also conflicts directly with one of the core philosophies driving this mod: If you take a perk, you should be able to feel it, and perks which simply increase numbers in spreadsheets should be avoided.

[Mattiewagg]

deRusset, I do not agree with your premise that merging the trees emphasizes magic more.

 

Currently we're addressing the problem of "spells never get stronger" in the mod by using a concept called Spellpower. When you choose to improve your magicka at level up, you gain 1 spellpower. Spellpower improves the efficacy of all spells, provided you've gotten the mainline perks in those spells' trees. We like this feature because, in addition to solving the spell scaling problem, it presents a meaningful choice to the player regarding what kind of focus they want to give. (Health and Stamina have similar stats, Brawn and Finesse, which contribute to other skills and abilities). It also preserves the differences between the schools, which we feel are important both for flavor (illusion feels different than destruction) and balance (alteration and destruction shouldn't level together for the same reason two-handed and heavy armor shouldn't level together - it would be too powerful).

 

The perk list you've presented generates far more problems, in terms of balance, flavor and interest, than it solves. It also conflicts directly with one of the core philosophies driving this mod: If you take a perk, you should be able to feel it, and perks which simply increase numbers in spreadsheets should be avoided.

I like that idea. I might have some more ideas coming in a bit, by the way, especially ways to make the combat feel like there's more impact (implementing a system like TK Recoil?), since, while much better than Oblivion, Skyrim's combat feels like you're slicing through people with a ghost blade (<< Bad analogy), not hitting them with a mace.

 

And what do you mean by "we"? Do you have other members on the team?

 

With your overhaul, are you going to do something like SkyRe where new weapons from another mod are included? I always liked that feature.

[Arrogancy]

Yes, it's not just me. At the moment there are two of us - though we would be more than happy for more assistance. We're both pretty good programmers, but domain-specific knowledge is always appreciated on a new project involving new tools.

 

There will definitely be a ReProccer if we end up radically changing weapon and armor stats. There's a possibility we'll be able to stick to using just perk changes to balance weapons and armor and keep the vanilla skyrim values, which means that any weapon/armor mod that works with vanilla would be automatically compatible with the rules changes. (The way that would work is that the novice perk in each weapon tree would give a large damage boost to the weapons in the tree, bringing them up to our desired values. We're still examining how this would stack with other perks and modifiers to determine whether it would be feasible.)

 

TK Recoil is interesting - but our focus is more on gameplay changes. I'd rather leave the look/sound/feel stuff to other folks. It's not really our strength.

 

I very much look forward to any idea you'd care to offer, Matthiaswagg.

[Mattiewagg]

Yes, it's not just me. At the moment there are two of us - though we would be more than happy for more assistance. We're both pretty good programmers, but domain-specific knowledge is always appreciated on a new project involving new tools.

 

There will definitely be a ReProccer if we end up radically changing weapon and armor stats. There's a possibility we'll be able to stick to using just perk changes to balance weapons and armor and keep the vanilla skyrim values, which means that any weapon/armor mod that works with vanilla would be automatically compatible with the rules changes. (The way that would work is that the novice perk in each weapon tree would give a large damage boost to the weapons in the tree, bringing them up to our desired values. We're still examining how this would stack with other perks and modifiers to determine whether it would be feasible.)

 

TK Recoil is interesting - but our focus is more on gameplay changes. I'd rather leave the look/sound/feel stuff to other folks. It's not really our strength.

 

I very much look forward to any idea you'd care to offer, Matthiaswagg.

Just out of curiousity, who's the other person? I'd help you out, but I'm not great with perks, more of a scripter, and I'm working on my own project, though if you need some scripting help I'd be happy to lend a hand, if I have the time.

 

I'm thinking about the combat tree right now, so I'll get back to you on that in a bit.