Mods and TES6

[zzazzman]

I've started a blog called "Elder Scrolls 6 Requests" and I've started a line of stories that look at Skyrim Mods and how they have good ideas that would help make a better Elder Scrolls 6 game. Check it out here:

 

http://tes6requests.blogspot.com/

 

I also discuss other things from past Elder Scrolls games and how the lessons for what makes a good and bad game can be used for a new TES6.

 

Let me know what you think and what other Skyrim mods I should include as lessons for TES6.

Edited November 10, 2014 by zzazzman

[Lachdonin]

I agree with some of your statements, and disagree with others.

 

For one, i don't think Morrowind was the best TES. It was inferior in absolutely every way to Daggerfall. In particular, it's important to note that Oblivion wasn't the first TES with Fast Travel, but Morrowind was the ONLY TES without it. Likewise, Morrowind lacked the interesting factions, reputation and allegiances of Daggerfall, along with the complex skills, advantage/disadvantage system, totally unleveled world (Morrowind's world was, in fact, leveled, just to a lesser degree than Oblivion and Skyrim). Everything Morrowind did was Daggerfall-lite, which is why it was so successful and is so fondly remembered. It is action-y enough to keep people interested, but RPG-y enough to feel like you're having an impact.

 

Which you are not. Morrowind had even less world-impact than Skyrim. Aside from everyone stammering at you once you complete the main quest, your actions have almost no effect on the world around you. Many NPC's de-spawn once you've finished their quests, everyone else just stands there staring into space, and with the exception of the Ghost Gate shutting down and the manor you build (all 3 get built, you just get to live in one) there are no visible changes to the landscape of population based on your actions.

 

It is still better than Arena and Oblivion, mind you. God damn Oblivion was bad... Here's an idea, lets get rid of everything good about Morrowind, like decent story telling and an interesting world, and throw it out the window, creating a generic landscape and a boring demonic invasion! Then let's break barely functional mechanics and totally strip the franchise of anything interesting! Yay Oblivion!... Well, i suppose it at least implemented a better combat mechanic...

 

Also, on the topic of puzzles... Puzzles are incredibly difficult to pull off. By this i mean you run afoul of both game styles at the same time, taking away Character-Skill and infuriating Players at the same time. Puzzles are entirely dependant on the players puzzle solving skills, and are thus out of place in an RPG (though common in action games). So long as the player is smart, his bumbling Nord with the IQ of a turnip can figure out the 30 line riddle with 500 possible answers. How is that RPG like? At the opposite end of the scale, straight up skill/attribute checks remove agency and involvement, and the game just becomes a line of skill-milestones and goalposts, rather than an adventure. The only way one can really implement puzzles without falling to either side of the equation is to make them extremely simplistic, like in Skyrim.

 

 

Anyway... as for mods... I hate SkyUI. It's ugly, it's clunky, and it's just... ugh. I understand that they had to work within the limitations of Skyrim's setup, but it is just garbage. Slightly less smelly garbage than the vanilla system, but garbage none the less. It should be taken as a lesson on why you need to really consider how an interface is designed, and less as inspiration on what the next one should be like.

 

I'm also not fond of a map with roads... If you're going to go that route, make it look like a map and not a birds eye-view. You can't see roads from that altitude, and anyone who thinks you can probably still thinks the Great Wall can be seen from orbit...

Edited November 11, 2014 by Lachdonin

[Matth85]

I.... You.... but....

I came here with a reply, but Lachdonin kind of summed it up nicely.

I feel the Morrowind praise is too much. Daggerfall was a superior game as a RPG.I willp never forget that one dungeon I spent 4 hours in. Yes, I mean 4 hours. The min/Max potential, the feel of adventure and the scope of the world was.. immense and magnificent.

 

I know Morrowind managed to hit s generstion of gamers, and people still claim it as the best. But that\s all subjective. I know Oblivion was a bad game, looking at it without my nostalgic glasses. At the same time it is my faovurite. Just as Morrowind hit the nostalgic button of many: The game didn`t offer anything remarkable other than going from 2d to 3d, and sacrificing the majority of RPG elements from Daggerfall.

[saurusmaximus]

It's funny how one's experiences change their perspective. Oblivion was my intro to the Elder Scrolls universe, and I absolutely loved it. I've never played Morrowind, though I fully intend to; I recently bought the Elder Scrolls Anthology and am starting with Arena and working my way up. Which is harder to do than I thought it would be, primarily because trying to go from a modded-until-it's-almost-photorealistic Skyrim to a DOS-based game from 1993, is well, a big change.

To comment on your some of your ideas:

-I agree that SkyUi was a huge improvement over the vanilla system. I liked 3DNPC too, it's characters had a lot more depth than vanilla. Which was also a negative, there were several characters whose dialogue trees were so long that I got tired of talking to them and ended up walking away.

-I also agree that the leveling system either needs to go or be severely redone; I hated it in Oblivion, and I hate it in Skryim. What's the point of building up your character if the baddies can keep up? Based on the number of mods that try to change that, it seems a lot of other players think so too.

-I thought the shouts were largely useless, for the amount of power the Thu'um supposed carried, they didn't help that much in a fight. Now I realize they probably had to be that way, otherwise they would be too OP to be balanced, but still. On a related note, magic was also underpowered. I've tried numerous times to play as a straight mage (no melee) character and have come to the conclusion it's impossible. Unless you REALLY enjoy dying all the time.

-My biggest suggestion for TES VI would be to either dump Papyrus or completely overhaul it so it's made from something stronger than the tissue paper and chewing gum it's constructed with currently.

 

This was my two cents for now, my kid needs the computer to do his homework :sad:

[zzazzman]

I agree with some of your statements, and disagree with others.

 

For one, i don't think Morrowind was the best TES. It was inferior in absolutely every way to Daggerfall. In particular, it's important to note that Oblivion wasn't the first TES with Fast Travel, but Morrowind was the ONLY TES without it. Likewise, Morrowind lacked the interesting factions, reputation and allegiances of Daggerfall, along with the complex skills, advantage/disadvantage system, totally unleveled world (Morrowind's world was, in fact, leveled, just to a lesser degree than Oblivion and Skyrim). Everything Morrowind did was Daggerfall-lite, which is why it was so successful and is so fondly remembered. It is action-y enough to keep people interested, but RPG-y enough to feel like you're having an impact.

 

Which you are not. Morrowind had even less world-impact than Skyrim. Aside from everyone stammering at you once you complete the main quest, your actions have almost no effect on the world around you. Many NPC's de-spawn once you've finished their quests, everyone else just stands there staring into space, and with the exception of the Ghost Gate shutting down and the manor you build (all 3 get built, you just get to live in one) there are no visible changes to the landscape of population based on your actions.

 

It is still better than Arena and Oblivion, mind you. God damn Oblivion was bad... Here's an idea, lets get rid of everything good about Morrowind, like decent story telling and an interesting world, and throw it out the window, creating a generic landscape and a boring demonic invasion! Then let's break barely functional mechanics and totally strip the franchise of anything interesting! Yay Oblivion!... Well, i suppose it at least implemented a better combat mechanic...

 

Also, on the topic of puzzles... Puzzles are incredibly difficult to pull off. By this i mean you run afoul of both game styles at the same time, taking away Character-Skill and infuriating Players at the same time. Puzzles are entirely dependant on the players puzzle solving skills, and are thus out of place in an RPG (though common in action games). So long as the player is smart, his bumbling Nord with the IQ of a turnip can figure out the 30 line riddle with 500 possible answers. How is that RPG like? At the opposite end of the scale, straight up skill/attribute checks remove agency and involvement, and the game just becomes a line of skill-milestones and goalposts, rather than an adventure. The only way one can really implement puzzles without falling to either side of the equation is to make them extremely simplistic, like in Skyrim.

 

 

Anyway... as for mods... I hate SkyUI. It's ugly, it's clunky, and it's just... ugh. I understand that they had to work within the limitations of Skyrim's setup, but it is just garbage. Slightly less smelly garbage than the vanilla system, but garbage none the less. It should be taken as a lesson on why you need to really consider how an interface is designed, and less as inspiration on what the next one should be like.

 

I'm also not fond of a map with roads... If you're going to go that route, make it look like a map and not a birds eye-view. You can't see roads from that altitude, and anyone who thinks you can probably still thinks the Great Wall can be seen from orbit...

 

 

Thanks for the reply! As far as Daggerfall - I've pretty much excluded that and Arena in my reviews because I am minimally familiar with them. I should have added it to my "Manifesto" post that I do not intend to include them because I only played each for a couple of hours and I view the more recent three games as influential to what may possibly occur in TES6.

 

As far as there being less world impact in Morrowind - I would say there was a sense of it more than what the game mechanics actually allowed for. Plus, what impact more do you want than being able to kill critical characters and gods? Or feeling like you've actually become powerful?

 

With fast travel, yes, Daggerfall had it. However, my point is more that Morrowind was better for NOT having it. And that a Morrowind type of travel system, if flushed out and introduced to the player, would be superior to the current system.

 

This goes for SkyUI and a better world map - my point isn't so much "these are great mods," but more so "look at these issues that had to be fixed." I think it would be wise to incorporate them as lessons learned for a TES6 game.

 

Nevertheless, you have great input. I recognize that a lot of this is very subjective, but I think you and I probably agree more than disagree.

 

I.... You.... but....
I came here with a reply, but Lachdonin kind of summed it up nicely.
I feel the Morrowind praise is too much. Daggerfall was a superior game as a RPG.I willp never forget that one dungeon I spent 4 hours in. Yes, I mean 4 hours. The min/Max potential, the feel of adventure and the scope of the world was.. immense and magnificent.

I know Morrowind managed to hit s generstion of gamers, and people still claim it as the best. But that\s all subjective. I know Oblivion was a bad game, looking at it without my nostalgic glasses. At the same time it is my faovurite. Just as Morrowind hit the nostalgic button of many: The game didn`t offer anything remarkable other than going from 2d to 3d, and sacrificing the majority of RPG elements from Daggerfall.

 

 

I think far too many people look past arguments and point at nostalgia. I'm nostalgic about Oblivion, too, but it is inferior. Plus, my other points are legitimate arguments for why I think Morrowind is best.

 

But it's all beside the point, in a sense. I think most can agree with what I feel is good about Morrowind, even if you don't think it's the best game. The point that I want to get across is that Bethesda would be wise to try and incorporate the things that made Morrowind magical into TES6. Same goes for my reviews of Oblivion and Skyrim. And my reviews of the mods so far.

 

Again, thank you for your feedback. Are there any other mods I should write about and how they would apply to TES6? Anything else to consider for TES6, learned from Skyrim?

[Boombro]

Requiem?

[LittleFighter]

Elder Scrolls 6 modding will be very minimal. I blame the console peasants for wanting multiplayer with everything.

[Boombro]

Elder Scrolls 6 modding will be very minimal. I blame the console peasants for wanting multiplayer with everything.

I hope there is no multiplayer. TES games are not meant for that. It would be fun, but as you said the modding (which made the game alive to this day.) would be really minimal.

[saurusmaximus]

Elder Scrolls 6 modding will be very minimal. I blame the console peasants for wanting multiplayer with everything.

 

 

 

Elder Scrolls 6 modding will be very minimal. I blame the console peasants for wanting multiplayer with everything.

I hope there is no multiplayer. TES games are not meant for that. It would be fun, but as you said the modding (which made the game alive to this day.) would be really minimal.

 

Hopefully, they (Bethesda)will have gotten the multi-player stuff out of their system with ESO. Let's be honest, the ability to mod these games is a large part of their appeal, not to mention their longevity from a playing standpoint. I'm not a huge gamer, but I can tell you with all certainty that I've never logged the kind of time I have with Skyrim (1,000+ hours and counting) and Oblivion with any other game. Not even close, and the main reason for that is the ability to add to the game either to add content or make the existing content better. Given Bethesda's past timelines for game releases, we got a couple years before we see a new title so hopefully they are reading these posts and at least considering some of what we say. <fingers crossed>

[Lachdonin]

Requiem?

 

Is rubbish. It's little more than pandering to the Dark Souls 'I AM SO LEET! PWN CASUALS!' croud. It is unrealistic, unintuitive and contains mechanics which exist for no reason other than to beat the player down. I know the goal of it is to make the game more challenging, but it does so in the absolute most cumbersome way possible, opting to just beat the hammer of unforgiveness so hard it crushes your skull. The less inspiration taken from it the better...

 

 

As far as there being less world impact in Morrowind - I would say there was a sense of it more than what the game mechanics actually allowed for. Plus, what impact more do you want than being able to kill critical characters and gods? Or feeling like you've actually become powerful?

 

With fast travel, yes, Daggerfall had it. However, my point is more that Morrowind was better for NOT having it. And that a Morrowind type of travel system, if flushed out and introduced to the player, would be superior to the current system.

 

Nevertheless, you have great input. I recognize that a lot of this is very subjective, but I think you and I probably agree more than disagree.

 

Any who, I appreciate your cordial response. Too often when stuff like this appears on the Bethesda Forums, it quickly devolves into rhetoric, or when it comes up around here becomes a load of self congratulation or bickering... It's nice to have actual discussion on something.

 

As far as impact goes, I do think we should he able to kill NPCs again, and there is evidence in Skyrim that Bethesda agrees. The new Protected status is like Essential-Lite, and is used on several characters... However, it didn't work initially and had to be fixed, highlighting why simply reverting to Morrowinds Essential mechanic is too unforgiving. Giving players the ability to literally break their questlines, without any indication they're about to do so, it terrible. As is having wandering NPCs eaten by wolves on the roads.

 

At the same time, Skyrim is a step up in how quests affect the world around you. People praise you for your help, they move from one city to another, business change hands, people die as a consequence of your choices etc... Its certainly not up to Bioware's standards, but the impact of your actions on the world is more pronounced in Skyrim than it has been previously.

 

As far as Fast Travel goes... I think it has a place, and not having it was one of the worst parts of Morrowind. I fast travel, every day I walk to work. I've walked the sake route so many times that I don't even really recognise what I see anymore, and it's all just automatic. The sake basic principle applies in TES, and being forced to walk past the same sign 500 times, while fun for a number of a the immersion crowd, is unappealing to most. Similarly, while having the feature doesn't mean you HAVE to use it, not having the feature means you're unable to use it even if you want to. For the sake of appealing to as many as possible, I think it should stay.