Is America becoming Socialist ?

[JimboUK]

@ species I do think greed is a major motivator, people like having stuff, just look what happens during the sales. It's what we are and any system that doesn't take that into account will fail. Wealth is redistributed under capitalism, it goes to those who work hard, to those who are willing to take risks, the very people who create employment for everybody else. Under socialism the wealth that isn't squandered on social engineering goes to the party elite instead of the entrepreneur, your average Joe still isn't any better off. Yes people do go without under capitalism but they do also under socialism and communism, the Soviet Union had to rely on cheap imports from Western Europe because it couldn't feed it's people, it wasn't a shortage of land but disinsentivised farmers that were the problem. Look at the terrible state the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe were in when they were finally freed from socialist oppression, it's taken them years to catch up with the west. Capitalism isn't perfect but it does give people a chance to move up and better themselves, socialism denies people that right dragging everyone down to the lowest level.

 

Socialism is full of well meaning lofty ideals that just don't work in practice.

 

@ Balagor you assume that person is happy to stay on $500,000, what if they want to expand and make their lives even better? Maybe by investing and expanding their business and even employing more people. Why should they bother if that money will be taken from them? who loses out? those who would have been employed lose out.

[juderodney]

The bailout was definatly socialist, and I resent it.

 

And it was a Bush thing, too.

 

Do you know how TARP got to President Bush's desk? It went through Congress. As it went through the Senate, guess who voted in favor of it. Yep, it was Senator Barack Obama. And guess who voted in favor of it in both houses? That's right, it was the Democrats.

 

Yes, there were a few Republicans in favor of it (John McCain included), and there were enough Democrats in the House (mostly known as the "Blue Dogs") who resisted it to defeat its first attempt at passage.

 

In short, simply labeling it as a "Bush thing" is way too narrow thinking.

Edited September 10, 2010 by juderodney

[Balagor]

@ Balagor you assume that person is happy to stay on $500,000, what if they want to expand and make their lives even better? Maybe by investing and expanding their business and even employing more people. Why should they bother if that money will be taken from them? who loses out? those who would have been employed lose out.

That was just a figure of example. Anyone can go higher, be taxed more than the average employer, and still have plenty for themselves.

In DK we do have people like Bill Gates, when ever they want to invest further, they do not pay tax of the investments, only the income. It works, but I most admit the state is spending a lot of resources right now, getting fortunes taxed, that have been stashed away in foreing countries. We have had a new law, and so have the foreing countries. Many have had their foreing fortunes taxed voluntiery. Those who fail after Jan 1th 2011, can await large fines or even prison. Now you probably think we are all commies over here, and we are about to confiscate all fortunes. But no. We are NOT socialists here. We have a conservative goverment at the moment. There opinion is, as everybody elses opinion here, we pay tax by income. The average worker payes medium tax, the well off, payes huge tax, and still are millionaires and billionaires, and can do what ever they want. Those who try to cheat from the taxes, are even not well liked amongst their own kind. At least in DK.

[MetalDragon]

After reading all this, i come to the conclusion that this debate is going nowhere.

 

Let it go, it isn't even on topic.

[species5478]

@ species I do think greed is a major motivator, people like having stuff, just look what happens during the sales.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5EU4GRudvc

Yes…just look at what happens at sales…

This is what I mean by "Civilized Barbarism". Capitalism applies a "dog eat dog" philosophy to social interaction. This means, there is no difference between a gorilla fighting for dominance, and that of a human trampling for a TV aside for the manner in which gains are acquired. Superiority by means of abusing another for any reason, is barbaric.

 

It's incredulous to believe in a system based on profit, when there's only a finite amount of money. The two elements are mathematically opposed to one another. There cannot exist for instance, a Billion Bill Gates. Resources won't allow. Capitalism would be wonderfully stable idea if there were infinite resources to drawn upon. Because there isn't…so Capitalism now functions as a tool by which to absorb the world's resources as quickly as possible.

 

And the world is filled with poor people who work hard, (sometimes harder than rich people), and who take risks, (sometimes more than rich people). But they will NEVER attain wealth, because the resources have already been allocated elsewhere. So it doesn't matter how hard they work, or how many risks they take, most of the world will remain poor. And there are many who acquired wealth through inheritance, or by stealing from those who worked for it. Remember Madoff? Wealth alone is not an indicator of a hard worker.

 

Also, consider the richest people in companies around the world. Diamond mines, oil companies, banks…the largest industries in the world are already spoken for. Sure…someone might come along and create the next "Sham Wow", and become a millionaire. But even they won't be able to achieve greater financial success than big business, because people only have so much to spend on extra amenities. So now what we have is a LARGE group of people who will be forever poor, and a small group of people extorting vast amounts of resources until there is nothing left. At that point, the world will most likely disintegrate into war. Are you honestly telling me, that you see nothing wrong with this system? I hardly consider this behavior civilized. The inability to overcome greed is no less primal than a dog in heat.

 

 

Also, you're not explaining the truth when describing the true nature of socialism. You've stated in numerous comments, that people will still go without in a socialist system, or that resources would be, and have been squandered, by using failed socialist systems as examples. A true, working form of socialism would provide for all, while stimulating inventiveness.

 

However...I will admit something about Capitalism...

 

 

I've never argued against the effectiveness of Capitalism, only its existence. This was purposely. To me, the system works. In fact, Capitalism has worked so well…and exhausted the world's finances with such effectiveness…that the economy collapsing was only a sign that the world was drained dry.

 

So this is the end result of a functioning Capitalist system; a "collapsed" economy where the world's richest, after having absorbed most of the excess wealth, sit on their golden thrones, watching everyone else struggling for survival. This is why America is not, nor will not be, socialized. Greed has, since America's inception, reigned supreme.

[MetalDragon]

Well, I have been bated. Crap. I like this site already.

 

Yes, a fully functional socialistic system would be a great and wonderful thing, but history teaches us that it simply doesn't work. Full socialism is exactly the same as full communism, go loot at some pictures of east and west Berlin before they tore down the wall. The difference is astonishing.

 

Also, just because some people abuse a capitalistic system, does not make it savage or barbaric. I could argue that the borderline slavery of socialistic and communist (THEY ARE THE SAME) systems is barbaric. You would simply tell me they do not enslave people. Do you understand that in communist (and eventually in full socialist, I have no doubt) they tell you what you are going to do all your life? I think that assigned labor is pretty close to slavery.

 

The difference between socialism and communism is only this: Communists shoot up the place and take over, socialists sneak in slowly with stuff that sounds good, but will eventually tear away all your social liberties.

 

And as for the topic of the thread: No, because if it does I will be making a trip up to the District of Columbia, and I will rectify it. There is a reason they gave us the second amendment.

 

I would honestly hate to live in a socialist society, It is just something i want to avoid.

 

On a side note, go look up stuff about Wal Mart, They are an absolutely perfect example of people abusing the system, and why there should be government regulations on capitalism. A lot of what they do is illegal, but they have so much money they can pay any lawsuit, any time.

[Aurielius]

 

And as for the topic of the thread: No, because if it does I will be making a trip up to the District of Columbia, and I will rectify it. There is a reason they gave us the second amendment.

I would honestly hate to live in a socialist society, It is just something i want to avoid.

Well anyone who loves the 2nd Amendment and understands why we won't tolerate socialist government can't be all bad.. :thumbsup:

[grannywils]

Ok, here I am once again, where I said I would no longer tread. Are either one of you fine gentlemen suggesting that if the government were to turn socialist (which I will once again state emphatically I do not believe will ever happen) it would then become "ok" to shoot it up because we have the right to keep and bear arms under the U.S. Constitution. Aurielius, as a strict Constitutionalist,can you really mean to say that you believe that was what was meant by those words?

[species5478]

 

Also, just because some people abuse a capitalistic system, does not make it savage or barbaric. I could argue that the borderline slavery of socialistic and communist (THEY ARE THE SAME) systems is barbaric. You would simply tell me they do not enslave people. Do you understand that in communist (and eventually in full socialist, I have no doubt) they tell you what you are going to do all your life? I think that assigned labor is pretty close to slavery.

 

I think this is closer to actual slavery....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVuScVCF1Ws

 

The arguments aren’t compelling enough to me. History is showing us right now, the faults in Capitalism.

 

You speak of slavery, but that’s exactly what’s happening right now, under our Capitalist system. Millions “slave” all across the world to make cheap goods for Americans. Children in Indonesia work in sweatshops making clothing. The Chinese toil laboriously creating a myriad of gadgets so that we can have greater selection. Here in my home state of Arizona, Mexican are made to do backbreaking jobs literally for next to nothing. All of these people don’t work these jobs because it’s what they “prefer” to do. They’re forced into a survival situation and have no other means of attaining a livelihood.

 

Indentured labor is no better than forced.

 

It is of course, easy to defend a system of abuse, when you are the abuser. Rapists tend to enjoy the act of violating their victims, because they derive enjoyment from satisfying primal needs through superiority.

 

This is what America had become. A nation of civilized rapists.

 

The negatives that I’ve read from an established socialist system, and that of the Capitalism system, do not compare. Socialism, even through its worst examples, pleases and helps more people than Capitalism. And let us not forget, that our resources are finite. There seems to be this assumption that we can continue like this forever. I think we all know this isn’t the case. Capitalism by design, is not a permanent solution to governing people. It works only as long as there are people, and resources to exploit. We’re running out of both.

 

The difference between socialism and communism is only this: Communists shoot up the place and take over, socialists sneak in slowly with stuff that sounds good, but will eventually tear away all your social liberties.

 

Capitalism uses both methods, actually. Did you forget how America was born? Or the current wars that are going on? Or the political negotiations on behalf of establishing Capitalism in places like the Middle East? Trying to force Iran or North Korea by way of imposing sanctions, is only one example.

Nothing is more nefarious than Capitalism.

[MetalDragon]

I will protect my liberty as i protect my life. For they are both given to me by God, and it is in no man's power to go against Him. What I sow I will reap, and what I say i shall stand behind. I live by my word, and I shall back my word with all that I can do.

 

If you fall, I will offer my hand, if you are hungry I will share my bread, but when your feet are tired I will not carry you, for mine are blistered too.

 

It is the responsibility of the strong to protect the weak, of their own free will. To force a man to use his strength, unless in reparation of past wrongs, is criminal, and a theft of time and life. If one does not help where they can then they fail the gifts they have been given, but that is their choice, and their failure, and it is the place of none to force one to do right, for each must bear the consequences of their own actions.

 

 

Socialism works fine, until they run out of other people's money to spend.

 

Remember that those Chinese people are slaving under a communist regime.

 

I in no way support such abuse, i believe the government should stop such things, however in regard to Mexicans, many are illegal, however that is no excuse to abuse them. Also, the U.S. was started because we got tired of being told what to do by a king across an ocean, we were being mistreated by our then government. We had all rights to tell them we did not want to listen to them, and I believe the whole declaration of independence thing gave them plenty of opportunity to let us go peacefully, any fool can tell you it is hard to hold something so far away from your troop base. I also do not agree with what we are doing in foreign country's, let's keep our nose in our own business.