Is America becoming Socialist ?

[Lisnpuppy]

I for one do NOT think America is becoming socialist but perhaps may be adopting some more socialist-like programs. I believe that "pure" Socialism/Communism or Capitalist economic/political systems can NOT exist. The socialist/communist would rely on a completely non-corrupt government to make that even remotely feasible and a Capitalist one would rely on the generosity of the business community to make up charitable donations and run programs to take over social programs that must exist in any government. Also as we know from the U.S. there must still be government control over capitalism (ie..regulations of business, protection of workers, anti-monopoly legislation.)

 

Theoretically you're right, and I agree. Technically though...

 

Burnagirl asked "Is America becoming Socialist?" The word "socialist" is a noun, and describes somebody who believes in or supports socialism, or a socialist party. Since America is not an individual, it cannot become a "socialist".

You made the mistake that the rest of made by answering the question that you wanted, "Is America becoming socialized?", and not the one that was posed; "Is America becoming socialist?" But I think it's threading needles. We should be more lighthearted about the whole thing. We're all passionate about our beliefs, and there's nothing wrong with that. I like everybody here, and enjoy debating in these forums because by and large, everyone maintains a proper level of civility even when in disagreement.

 

 

 

Thank you and I agree that things can be taken too personally and some light-heartedness...when properly placed is good for when things get too heated. However one must be careful that he/she doesn't come off as being flighty or as if the topic is not one that is being taken seriously.

 

Now as to the hairs you are splitting. I disagree with your definition as it were. Perhaps the topic question could have been phrased more clearly....but the word socialist can also be an adjective. For example..a "socialist state"....so if the topic read....Is America becoming a socialist state, perhaps it may have been more clear. However I stand by my statement that many of you have gotten off topic. The debate HAS turned to the viability of socialism more than answering and providing examples of how or how not America is turning to a socialist state or practicing socialism. Yes one must go beyond the limited parameters of this topic at times to prove a point..(however how well socialism works or not is really irrelevant...as examples of HOW America may be becoming so or not so are all that is technically needed) by showing examples of socialism at work in other nations, yet as I said the debate and questions you are asking each other and points you are trying to prove and disprove have meandered from the topic.

 

I also believe that the continuation of name calling needs to end. If you believe a person is acting rude or in an incorrect manner then go with the proper procedures....and yes Ginny I am refering to you though you are not the only guilty one (and I am not trying to pick on you as it were...you were just the one that popped into my head so please do not think it otherwise.) I find that you are well read and usually well spoken but the thoughtful arguments you (or anyone that does this) present lose their effectiveness when personal comments are made. If you feel you are being baited then be the bigger person and simply ignore this and present your argument in the precise and educated way I have seen you do.

 

Now as this is also off topic I will say no more of these subjects and if I have more comments I will keep them to what I believe is the one presented from this topics heading. Though I would be happy to answer questions or clarify via PM.

 

Thank you all...this has been a most enlightening debate to witness. It does my heart good to see folks be able to put together well-thought out arguments.

[MetalDragon]

I am with Lisnpuppy on this.

 

I also would like to note that I am the only one who did not get their ass handed to them in species version of these events, however much I may disagree with her interpretation.

 

HA HA HA

 

Of course i would have done some MMA style stuff and put you in a master lock or the anaconda, but hey. (I once put my friend in a triangle lock :) )

 

 

On a side note, I need to pimp out my profile, any suggestions? LOL

[grannywils]

Although I have attempted to leave this thread on more than one occasion, I have continued to follow it, as the subject matter is of interest to me. Unfortunately I have watched with dismay as for post after post the debate has continued to be over who knows best whether socialism works or doesn't work?. Will capitalism eventually kill us all?. Where does real communism actually exist?. Who has his or her facts straight about when socialism actually began? Is someone going to come and take away all my hard earned money or eat my babies? Who hates which nationality and why? Who has suffered longer? Blah, blah, blah, blah....

 

A very dear friend of mine recently called to my attention that I had been sitting on the sidelines lately and just making the occasional comment, and that it was time for me to put up or shut up...

 

The original question was, is the U.S. turning to Socialism? In one or two of my earlier posts, I attempted to somewhat succinctly (for me) state unequivocally NO!. This is a capitalist country, and likely ever to remain so.

 

The social programs we have recently attempted to put into place have been labeled SOCIALIST by many of those who fear that somehow they might have to give up something in order for the less fortunate to have a small piece of the pie. We hear lots of shouting about, oh of course everyone deserves decent health care and a place to live and a reasonable education and a job; BUT, don't expect us to be giving any handouts. "They" have to work for their money and not lay around on their lazy butts and expect us to pay for everything. If we do that it disincentiveizes (Don't you just love words like that?)" them" from going to work, and does the same for us. Why should we be busting our butts so that they can be collecting Welfare. How many of you have ever seen what living on Welfare is like. I know, Ginnyfizz, you work with people on the Dole, many of them seem to revel in it. I, however, have known many others who did not. They wanted nothing more than the chance to learn a skill and to get a living wage so that they could earn enough money to never have to depend on the support of the Government again. But enough about that.

 

We were discussing whether or not the U.S. was going Socialist. Why on Earth are we even asking the question? Just because we've talked about implementing a couple of social programs? Just because we have a more liberal leaning president than the buffoon (pardon me, just expressing my personal opinion) that resided in the White House for the last eight years?

 

You've all been talking about what Socialism is for flicking ever on this thread. Haven't you figured it out yet? Does this country even remotely look Socialist? Let's be real here. We couldn't be more capitalist if we got up every morning, painted ourselves dollar green, force marched to the State Houses of every city in the nation and saluted the new flag changed to look like a dollar bill.

 

[MetalDragon]

Dang, I have to say this guy is right. Completely and totally right. Although I don't think doing that would make us any more capitalist, as money is not really a capitalist thing, just a creation of convenience and necessity. After all, it would be bad to be paid in chickens every Friday right?

[Aurielius]

I think that within the bounds of this debate some context should be added for our European readers. The most vocal advocates for a Socialistic State come from the southwest of the United States a region whose core values are extremely conservative and capitalistic. Species whose home state of Arizona has passed the most restrictive illegal immigration law in the country and has more militias than liberals. Grannywils's adopted state of New Mexico runs the most aggressive border patrol operation in all of the southwest. These advocates for a liberal America are not even representative of the states that they reside in, they have as much chance of enacting their agenda within their own states as Wiley Coyote has of catching the Roadrunner. Their views are far more in tune with the urban ultra liberal establishments of California and New York rather than the heartland of the country. The only possibility open to them is imposition of their agenda from above at a federal level, which being that we coming up to mid term elections is unlikely in the extreme. The political pendulum in this country is again swinging and it is not to the left.

 

@Species

Though you have been treated by me with utmost personal respect even to the point of chastising some on my side of the aisle for going overboard on a personal level, you fail to reciprocate the same gravitas that you have been accorded. I found your self laudatory color commentary to be sophomoric and out of place in a debate.

Though some have seen fit to applaud your wit from the sidelines I thought it was simply rude, there is a section for short stories perhaps there they will appreciate your prosaic wit more than I did.

The essence of the Socratic debate is questions asked and answered, something I have yet to see, whenever pinned down you move sideways and respond that socialism is whatever you want it to be, well so is pixie dust and they have equal chances in a real world context. You do not want to acknowledge the experience anyone who has endured socialistic policies and dismiss anything that contradicts your illusory version of reality.

 

@Balagor

You my friend have been the only poster who proposed real world examples of viable socialism, though I disagree with you in principle I respect your advocacy. I still maintain that in small scale examples such as Denmark without global responsibility it is viable, but the United States is not Denmark and her responsibilities cannot be avoided, hence your model is not viable here. But I do agree with you that this debate is cyclic and going no where.

[grannywils]

Thank you, Aurielius, for keeping us all apprised of the politics of my home state and that of my previous home state, which happens to be the current home state of Species. I would absolutely agree that some context should be added for our European readers; and I think you will agree that they have certainly been participating in a most vociferous manner up until now. I hardly think that they are feeling left out.

 

However, in keeping with the context of the thread, their experiences with socialism notwithstanding, an opinion on whether or not this country is in the process of turning down that road is neither dependent on how socialized medicine is faring in the United Kingdom nor whether it does or doesn't work in a small northern European country, nor the fact that "these advocates for a liberal America are not even representative of the states in which we live".

 

If anything, your expressed opinion that "our agenda" will not be faring too well in the upcoming elections would seem to further my point made in my previous post; which is to say that there is not a fiddler's chance in Hades that this country is on the verge of turning socialist.

 

As far as your comments to Species, since to the best of my knowledge I was the only one to applaud her attempt at humor from the sidelines, I am going to take a leap here and guess that your comments to her are addressed to both of us. I apologize to those of you who were offended by my applause. I was applauding her attempt to inject some humor into a thread that I felt was becoming a wee bit heavy and turgid. To be perfectly honest, I did not pay that much attention to the actual words she wrote, and I guess I should have done so. I thought that the set up she used was amusing and clever. I am very impressed with this young woman who takes such an interest in the world around her and is willing to stand up and speak up for what she believes. No, I do not think that she always has every single fact absolutely correct. No, she does not always dot every i and cross every t. No, her spelling is not always 100% accurate. And yes, sometimes she is a little bit arrogant. But she is a very young woman who takes an interest, and I applaud her for it. I do not believe that she should ever be rude to anyone; and I truly do not believe that she intended to be rude to you or to Ginnyfizz. But, If she did, I hope that she will be woman enough to not only recognize that she was but to apologize to you both, and to realize that this is not the way to carry on an adult discourse.

 

Although I agree that Balagor did propose real world examples of viable Socialism, I will once again remind you that this thread is not and never was about whether or not the U.S. should turn socialist. The question was whether or not it is turning socialist. My answer, is still a resounding, NO.

 

And, finally we can agree. If you read one of my posts from I don't know maybe 40 pages back, you will note that I said I pretty much thought this debate was going nowhere....

[Balagor]

@Aurielius

Thanks for enlightening the European readers left on this thread. I am probably the only one, and I do not comment anymore, except for now.

 

@granny

I too did applaud @species

 

@ all

True, this topic is running in cycle, and that´s why I have been off. However it looks now that you have come to a conclusion now, that tha topic is in cycle.

What I did see from my sideline, while I was not participating, was that debaters allways want to find the extreem examples.

 

@Aurielius, you are the only one to expres that a certain system can exist nearly flawless in a country, when taken up voluntierly.

 

Otherwise this whole debate has been about finding the must flawed systems around the world, that absolutely do not work, and it has been both cap and soc. Then it has been up to the opponant debater to defend and justify the systems on a flawed and biased foundation.

Were we in a deep crisis, as we as a matter of fact is right now, we would be wasting precious time, by finding all the flaws, instead of looking for what actually works.

[MetalDragon]

I have nothing to add.

 

I would like to wait and see what species has to say about all this though. She may bring about some interesting comments, as she seems pretty good at that. I should have made an account here sooner lol.

 

In any case, it seems stability is beginning to sink in, which means we might get something actually decided in the next couple pages. Then we will go off on another rant about something barely related...

 

See ya then!

[Chaosblade02]

I don't even know what kind of Socialism they are trying to push, but many of the pioneers of Socialism I think would disagree. Hearing quotes like "He who does not work, neither shall he eat", and "To each of their own worth". This is the complete opposite of what they call Socialism today. Even in Socialism, in order to get something. you must give something, there are no free handouts or entitlements.

 

Basically I got no idea what they are trying to do in America, but I do know I don't like the way this is going. I would prefer to stick with the devil I know.

[evilneko]

The devil you know? You mean the one that got us into this mess in the first place?

 

No way. Not a good idea. Besides, look at what "the devil you know" is considering! (which is even more stupid than it looks: it didn't work the last time they tried it and in fact backfired spectacularly!)