Lets all chill out

[evermore]

The issue I am talking about concerns the discussion on many threads and files on the nexus where some people have trouble installing a mod or file of some type. People who are not very experienced with doing some tasks with their computer often have trouble installing mods because even excellent read-me's often assume common knowledge that some people don't have. What happens is a result is that people end up messing up mod installations and post complaints on the file discussion thread or sending angry, distraught PMs to the file author/uploader. As a result modders get annoyed and angry as well, leaving everyone disillusioned and pissed off.

Effort on both sides of the technical ability chasm is required to keep everyone happy and constructive.

 

People new to downloading and installing files need to realize that:

 

-If your mod installation goes wrong is it very possible that the mistake is on your end, and not necessarily the fault of the mod.

-Mods usually have readmes: read it!

-If your having trouble, read the comments on the mod, chances are your not the only one that has had a certain problem, most likely someone else has asked and had answered whatever question you have had.

-If you don't find an answer to your problem don't immediately PM the author of the mod, if your problem is a general installation issue anyone can answer your question, first try the comment area.

-Realize modders are doing a lot of work for free, remain polite!

 

Modders and technical adepts need to realize that:

 

-Some people don't know some things you might assume to be common knowledge.

-Technical issues are very maddening to people not adept at solving such problems, so people will get agitated even with excellent mod support. This doesn't justify flaming mods obviously, just don't take it personally!

-If people are asking general knowledge questions in comments to your file don't feel obliged to answer them all, if you do its great, but there are many people at the nexus who can help with such things.

-Try to avoid overuse of acronyms in readmes.

[grannywils]

Evermore, I just want to thank you for that excellent post. I have been so fortunate to find a group of people here on the Nexus who have helped me out right from the beginning individually when I started to add mods. However, if I had needed to use the system exclusively I'm know it would have been somewhat overwhelming at first. As it is, I'm already driving my friends crazy.

 

Your suggestions could not have been more "on point" for both sides. There is never any reason for a person to be rude to a modder or person who has uploaded his or her work to this site for free and taken the time to try and do something to enhance our gaming experience. It is very easy to ask polite carefuly phrased questions.

 

By the same token, it would be most helpful if those writing the read me's and/or descriptions could bear in mind that not all of us understand this stuff nearly as well as they do (which is why they are doing it and we are not). If they would try to use simpler terms when possible, and as you pointed out, fewer acronyms, it might make it easier on all of us and less likely that they will receive unnecessary questions.

 

Thanks again for a great post.

 

 

[chucksteel]

Evermore, I just want to thank you for that excellent post. I have been so fortunate to find a group of people here on the Nexus who have helped me out right from the beginning individually when I started to add mods. However, if I had needed to use the system exclusively I'm know it would have been somewhat overwhelming at first. As it is, I'm already driving my friends crazy.

 

Your suggestions could not have been more "on point" for both sides. There is never any reason for a person to be rude to a modder or person who has uploaded his or her work to this site for free and taken the time to try and do something to enhance our gaming experience. It is very easy to ask polite carefuly phrased questions.

 

By the same token, it would be most helpful if those writing the read me's and/or descriptions could bear in mind that not all of us understand this stuff nearly as well as they do (which is why they are doing it and we are not). If they would try to use simpler terms when possible, and as you pointed out, fewer acronyms, it might make it easier on all of us and less likely that they will receive unnecessary questions.

 

Thanks again for a great post.

 

 

 

I'm going to give my two caps as a modder and, this is my personal opinion only! I would prefer a simple PM stating I'm a "NOOB, I DON'T UNDERSTAND, please help", "Your mod isn't working, what Have I done wrong" or, even a post on the treads saying "I'm having trouble". I'll go out of my way to help you to get my mod to work and, I'm not the most windows savvy person. Yes I'm a computer geek but, I'm a Mac guy, I only use windows for gaming.

 

Out of the 118,000 downloads of my mod, it's likely that only around 5% of users need help installing. I'm hear to help, I'm not doing this to break anyones game, In fact I'm trying to enhance it.

 

Nothing Miffs me more then when a user comes to me yelling, saying (and, this happened the other day,) I've downloaded this 5 times and, still can't get it to work, WTF, when they didn't bother to read the readme!

 

I can't tell you how many times the simple issue was because, "the want to be user" didn't bother reading the file descriptions or, even the readme. I'll still help them but, come to me as a civilized person! Ask for help and, I'm there, I've put off updates simply to help someone who had no idea of how to extract the files using WinZip! I don't mind helping people that don't understand how computers, file structure really works but, Ranting at mod authors is quite counter productive.

 

Admittedly, I've flamed back at the flamers but, I would prefer a civilized conversation. If you read my file description and, readme and, still can't get your head around it. Well, thats fine and, good! I'll help but, if you come BITC*ing, your on your own!

 

chuck

 

 

 

[grannywils]

Yep, well said. I always tell people I'm new at this, and to please "speak slowly" as it were. When I first came on Nexus and had Dragon Age questions, Dark Wolfe became something of a mentor to me for a little while. I told him I knew nothing, and he was so patient with me. I never tried to pretend I knew anything I didn't. I was never rude. And he could not have been more polite and understanding. By the time I finally got really into using some mods heavily (now on Oblivion) I had a few more friends who were actually helping me by suggesting which ones to download and then helping with suggestions on how to install, etc.

 

It is very scary for a Noob. But you are absolutely right, you need to make it very clear to the modder that you don't have a clue, and then most of you are always willing to help.

 

I know in my business I was always willing to help anyone who asked politely and wanted to learn. No one knows everything when they first start out. There is nothing wrong with asking questions. And manners never did anyone any harm.

[XTR3M368]

As a user and now as a fledgling modder with 2 of my own mods out (one as a partnership), one thing that has always bothered me are a couple of the negative endorsement categories. I will explain starting with...

 

#1 -- "The user couldn't get the file to work"....

I don't personally think people should have this option after the mod has proven itself....especially if the file has 500+ endorsements. How is a thumbs down for that a good thing? I would love it if when a mod gets a certain number of endorsements, like say 50, that option would no longer show up as it is obviously installable and works for a LOT of users....(50+ endorsements probably means thousands of downloads and successful installations). I can see it being available at the start if indeed the the mod is a huge pain to install or only installs part of the time or doesn't work at all.

 

#2 -- "The file did not fit into the user's personal tastes or beliefs, ect." I don't think this should be an option if certain parameters are met with the file, description and images. Most files have at least a decent description and an image or 2, and I am always like "What the heck? You can obviously see what this mod does, there are good images....why the heck did you download it at all if it doesn't fit your personal tastes?" Negative endorsements using this option always seem, at least to me, to be a petty "get back at the author for some reason", rather than actual feedback. I mean, crap, if you don't like Fords, don't go out and buy a Ford and then complain about it....geez....

The only time I think #2 option is remotely acceptable is if the author has blatantly misrepresented their mod, doctored up the images, and/or not posted any meaningful images or readmes so that you have no idea what you are getting into with that download. I personally don't download those kinds at all until I see some positive feedback.

 

I would love to see an option sometime in the future where you as the modder can petition the staff (once some pre-spelled out parameters are met with your mod) to review your mod and request that certain negative feedback options get disabled due to them being not applicable. (maybe even getting some rescinded if applicable) I don't know if all negative feedback needs to be "review-able", but those 2 negative feedback options above have always bothered me....even as a user before I started modding.

[LHammonds]

XTR3M368, those options are there to give certain members a place to vent without the idiotic comments that are sure to be included if commenting was required. If people see a mod that has been downloaded thousands of times and has tons of thumbs up and one or two thumbs down for "this mod did not work", it is obvious the problem is on the user-end of the equation. Again, the options are there for people to vent without requiring comments that would sure lead to fighting and bickering. If you don't want to see any of those negative views regardless if it is justified or not, you need to disable comments/votes. There is NO WAY around this with a means for public opinion. Public opinion comes it 3 flavors: Positive, negative and neutral and giving any means for feedback means you need to expect all 3. The only time moderators need to get involved are when rules are being broken.

 

As for the original post, very nice...however, I'm quite positive that 99.99% of the mod-user community leaving comments that need to see this will never see this. Many of those same people don't even read the description of the mod. hehehe...but always nice to have a posting like this to gently point people towards.

 

I usually point newbies to the Oblivion Mods FAQ.

 

LHammonds

[KDStudios]

I always try to help people having issues with my mod and I'm always calm with them about it.

Even when people are not having issues with my mod but another mod I always go out of my way to assist them in any possible way.

Like Evermore said, I agree we have to work together in order to help eachother.

 

Negative Endorsements shouldn't even have to be used;

If someone doesn't agree with it... Why look at it?

If you can't get it to work... Why not ask for assistance?

High quality standards... Images usually show you the mod so... why?

There were important files missing... Surely this should be reported to the modder and not be classed as a negative endorsement?!

And conflictions? Huh?! All mods conflict with another one somewhere on the nexus...

 

I have to agree with XTR3M368

That happened on my mod when some guy actually reinstalled his game without even asking for help or anything... and gave me my ONLY negative endorsement.

That is not fair.

He didn't read the readme, and he definately didn't get back to me to request help.

 

I don't think users should be allowed to leave negative endorsements like "The user couldn't get the file to work" if they don't even ask for help!

 

He hasn't even said or done anything on the nexus since.

I wish there were a way to get rid of that annoying blemish ¬_¬

[XTR3M368]

LHammonds,

I do completely understand your point. It is well taken. Although.....if someone feels the need to do a crybaby type vent session, isn't that what all of your great moderators are for? :tongue: (kidding)

I know that one little insignificant member like myself is not going to influence change on what I deem to be the best sites for modding Oblivion and Dragon Age on the web. I just needed a place to vent MY idiotic comments lol :biggrin: This just looked like a good place to do it.

 

You and the other staff keep up the good work. In all seriousness, I have always received excellent help/advice from the staff....especially you.

[LadyMilla]

 

#2 -- "The file did not fit into the user's personal tastes or beliefs, ect." I don't think this should be an option if certain parameters are met with the file, description and images. Most files have at least a decent description and an image or 2, and I am always like "What the heck? You can obviously see what this mod does, there are good images....why the heck did you download it at all if it doesn't fit your personal tastes?" Negative endorsements using this option always seem, at least to me, to be a petty "get back at the author for some reason", rather than actual feedback. I mean, crap, if you don't like Fords, don't go out and buy a Ford and then complain about it....geez....

 

If moderators regularly ban people who leave snide or openly hostile remarks in the comment topics of various mods that they don't like, why should a negative endorsement option like "The file did not fit into the user's personal tastes or beliefs, ect." exist at all? Why is 'trolling with words' a bannable offence while 'trolling with negative endorsement' isn't?

 

(In the meantime LHammonds responded to you, however, I must say, those who want to vent their bigotry will vent it, no matter what alternative options you provide. The real bigots/'keepers of the eternal truth'/'the last bastions of reason' will never be content with simply pressing a button, they will almost invariably feel compelled to put their 'infallible opinion' in writing and enlighten the misguided masses.

 

I must say maintaining a negative endorsement option based on personal tastes/beliefs seems to be a double-standard for me: "You cannot openly express your biased views but we allow you to vote for them".)

 

In my opinion the negative endorsement options should be disposed of entirely. They are easily abused. If the author misrepresented his mod, stole content from other authors, abused the site as a personal file dump site, violated copyright or the ToS in any way, you can always report them to the moderators so there is no need for negative endorsements.

 

If the mod is not working, it may be fixed in the future, and if it is not fixed, again you can report it to the mods so they can remove it or hide it from the public (if the author seems to have abandoned the project). So a negative endorsement is pointless again. Also, even when the mod is fixed, those who gave a negative endorsement will seldom come back to reverse it (is it even possible?). Why provide an easy way out of the problem that encourages laziness and hasty judgments? Let them speak their mind in the upload comment threads and if they are trolls, the sooner the moderators weed them out the better.

 

If a user cannot get the file to work, instead of letting them leave an ugly blotch on the otherwise clean record of the mod, wouldn't it be wiser to force the user to communicate with the author, and maybe get those issues sorted out? If he or she is a troll and unable to explain the problem in a civilized manner, his/her posting career will be a short one thanks to the banhammer. The sooner the better.

 

What are the other reasons? "There were important files missing (animations, textures, etc.) that meant the file didn't work properly; the file caused conflicts with the game or other popular files". All of these things are fairly common issues with mods that are a bit more complicated than your run-of-the-mill ubah-pistol dealing one thousand percent damage (even such simple mods can wreak havoc on your game if they replace vanilla weapons and a raider comes wielding that little darling). These are things that should be reported to the authors so they can start fixing them. No mod is ever really finished. It's like watching your neighbor's half-built house and tell him it looks crap without a roof. A mod is not a book that is more or less finished when it goes to press, and won't be revised - maybe for years - until the next edition is released. Huge mods that offer a lot of features, and require sophisticated scripting cannot be tested and debugged properly by a single person or even by a small team. Negative endorsements given to a WIP may even backfire and discourage authors from publishing their WIP projects, even though contributions like bug reports from users would certainly help them clean up the mod.

 

In my opinion, it would be reasonable to phase out the negative endorsement options in favor of a simple bug reporting tool. I believe that the number of endorsements coupled with the number of unresolved outstanding issues would be a better indicator of the mod's quality than a simple display of positive/negative endorsements. Don't get me wrong, I'm not attempting to tell the owner how to run his own site, and I'm definitely not suggesting something so complicated as the bug ticket tracking system on sites like Sourceforge.net, I'm just 'venting' my ideas.

[chucksteel]

I personally don't even worry or, think much about negative endorsements. As stated above, the majority of the time they are given by the trolls, not even having the guts to post there reasons behind the negative endorsement.

 

I've got three myself, I had four but, one was removed.

 

2 The user couldn't get the file to work

 

1 The file caused conflicts with the game or other popular files

 

I was never asked for help or, trouble shooting on their issues. They never told me of the conflicts, which I would have liked to know about, if it was real. I would go out of my way to fix an issue with other popular, well made mods.

 

When I see negatives I just roll my eyes, It would be different it I was interested in a mod that the negatives outweigh the positives by an alarming ratio but, only a few are no big deal. "You can't please everyone, all the time" and, it's impossible to try.

 

I would like to see people being forced to explain there reasons for giving the negative endorsement, not simply giving it in a somewhat anonymous fashion. This would most certainly weed out the trolls because, if someone couldn't or, wouldn't try to explain there reasons in an intelligent, articulate way they would surly face the "banHammer". Although, this would probably turn the moderators into a police force, having to check out every negative endorsement.

 

I myself like criticism, even critical criticism if it's given in a constructive positive manor. People can say "I didn't Like your mod because, "Whatever reason" or, "I don't like this aspect of your mod Because." Followed by a valid explanation, If I do agree with there reasons I may make a change and, If I don't I will come back with an "I understand your point but, I want it this way because.". Over on the beth treads, I've ben having a debate about my mod for some time. The topics range from the fact that some people think I have over cluttered and, it doesn't feel realistic to, Other users feeling that cells shouldn't have lights in them to simulate buildings being off the grid for over 200 years. It's quite fun and, thought provoking, I've even made some changes based on these discussions.

 

I'm fully capable of defending my work and, as I like to say "I'm a big boy". Criticism is important if we want to grow as a person and, as a modder. If your always told what a wonderful job your doing, how are you going to know where you need to improve or, where you've gone wrong.

 

just my thoughts

 

chuck