Elder scrolls 6, 5 things you want to see.

[Boombro]

 

"only the highest enchantment counts" or "only 2 enchantments of that type add up, everything else gets ignored

Bad idea, just having a cap like armor cap is simple.

 

for the armor, I'm thinking of dark souls 2 and grim dawn.

 

They have the same armor types. Caster/light-mid/heavy.

 

Dark souls has equipment load system. It simple, the tanker the set, the heavier it is. The heavier you are, the slower you roll and the slower your stamina regen. The load can be leveled up since it has it own stat, but it has it own stat.

There is nothing to improve armor using your own abilities and stats. Items you find will improve you armor rating though.

 

PS: We need a roll or dodge feature btw.

 

Grim dawn has a simple system. The gear is locked via your main three stats Phy, Cunning and spirit and not class. AKA tank, assassin, caster. Want that heavy armor? To bad, you have low Phy, want that dagger? Low cunning etc.

 

No armor skill whatsoever, but it still tied to your build greatly and you can make use of them.

[blattgeist]

Yeah Dark Souls' armor system is pretty good.

 

 

Bad idea, just having a cap like armor cap is simple.

How come? What don't you like about it? I think having an enchantment amount cap like max 2-3x magicka boost or only the highest enchantment of that type count leads to more build diversity than having an overall cap that i.ex. caps magicka cost decrease by 90%.

Edited December 14, 2015 by blattgeist

[Boombro]

Sorry, I meant simpler as in a better option.

 

Come when I think about it, I think I disagreed about what I agree with. Well, dame.

[Lachdonin]

 

 

Hope Beth will come up with something better in TES 6, but merging all armor in 1 skilltree still isn't best idea IMO.

 

Merging armor is no good imo. It takes away from variation and player choice. I want to have at least 2 different armor types.. 3 would be way better if they are balanced properly.

Ah, but you see, the divided skills in fact take away more choice than they offer. They limit damage forms, homogenize defensive approaches, and impose on other Skills. Armour should be about Mitigation, that's all. And having 2-3 Mitigation skills with only superficial differences isn't really adding to variety. It's just the difference between Vanilla, French Vanilla, and Original Vanilla.

 

Admitedly, this is part of a much wider vision. Once I have a keyboard in hand, I'll try to make it clear...

 

Yeah Dark Souls' armor system is pretty good.

 

Like most things in Dark Souls, I found it to be rubbish. Not TES rubbish, but pretty darn close.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Lachdonin

[blattgeist]

 

Yeah Dark Souls' armor system is pretty good.

Like most things in Dark Souls, I found it to be rubbish. Not TES rubbish, but pretty darn close.

 

 

To each their own. I'm not trying to convince you.

 

 

Ah, but you see, the divided skills in fact take away more choice than they offer. They limit damage forms, homogenize defensive approaches, and impose on other Skills. Armour should be about Mitigation, that's all. And having 2-3 Mitigation skills with only superficial differences isn't really adding to variety. It's just the difference between Vanilla, French Vanilla, and Original Vanilla.

 

They limit damage forms? Why do you think people in the middle ages used different armor types? We read stories about sneaky thieves, heavily armored knights and monks in robes. They have roots. I can imagine the elements playing a bigger role in future TES games, like fire and ice having a greater effect on lightly armored players, swimming through water or trying to run having a bigger impact on heavily armored ones. It's not all about damage mitigation imo. Ofc. the impact of a weapon is weaker against someone with a strong helmet and chest armor, but it also takes away his stamina and thus making weapon swings slower. The thief on the other hand can move quicker in his leather armor and score more critical hits that way.

 

 

PS: We need a roll or dodge feature btw.

Yeah. I would like to see that, but not for heavy armor users.

[Lachdonin]

 

They limit damage forms? Why do you think people in the middle ages used different armor types? We read stories about sneaky thieves, heavily armored knights and monks in robes. They have roots. I can imagine the elements playing a bigger role in future TES games, like fire and ice having a greater effect on lightly armored players, swimming through water or trying to run having a bigger impact on heavily armored ones. It's not all about damage mitigation imo. Ofc. the impact of a weapon is weaker against someone with a strong helmet and chest armor, but it also takes away his stamina and thus making weapon swings slower. The thief on the other hand can move quicker in his leather armor and score more critical hits that way.

 

Historically, the only reason not to wear plate armour is cost. Beyond a fleet of ships, or a castle, there wasn't much that was more expensive in the Medieval Period. In fact, because of its riveted structure and articulation later plate armours were far less restrictive than, say, Leather or Mail. All other forms of armour are part of gradual process of developing techniques and economy. Mail almost entirely replaced Leather, and was almost entirely replaced by Plate, simply because the new technology was better. It was like the change from vacuum tubes to transistors. Not to mention that, the weight scaling isn't that dramatic. Wearing enough leather to protect you in any reasonable way is still going to come out between 30 and 50 pounds.

 

The issue with how it's typically handled in Fantasy is... Well, because it tends to arbitrarily divide the Armour based on fictitious weight-classes or totally wrong protection-vs-restriction values, you end up with an inability to represent the advantages each type of armour represents. Each type of armouring technology behaves in a particular way, offering protection against certain types of damage, with Plate basically covering every angle at once. At the same time, no matter what type of armour you use, they follow the same encumberance rules... The more you wear, the more they restrict movement. So a full, head to toe covering of Leather is going to impair you the same as a full plate harness.

 

Now, as I said, in the real world there is no reason beyond cost to not go for Plate. It's simply more resistant to cuts, piercing and Blunt force than the alternatives. Yes, boiled (hardened) leathter is decent against blunt impact, and Maille was virtually impervious to cutting, but nothing offered the full protection of a solid sheet of tempered steel. But, in the real world, you only had to contend with physical sources of harm, since.. well... Magic doesn't exist. The presence of Magic in Fantasy allows you to make other armours relevant in a world with easy access to plate armours. Basically, the more metal you wear, the more vulnerable you are to Magic, eliminating the flat superiority of Plate as an armour.

 

But by keeping the Light-Medium-Heavy divide, you basically create a situation where you need to maintain competitive equilibrium between them or you risk totally invallidating options. You can't make Light protect you from Magic, Heavy protect you from Physical attacks, and Medium do both, because it creates an obvious choice and heavily impairs the other two. So to keep them ballanced, games resort to simplistic AC models for protection, and tack superficial mobility bonuses onto 'lighter' types of armour, instead of being able to represent that range of techniques that go into the Armour it's self, and what they are designed to protect against. And, to make the issue worse, it just makes 2-3 defensive paradigms that function exactly the same.

 

 

 

 

PS: We need a roll or dodge feature btw.

 

Yeah. I would like to see that, but not for heavy armor users.

We absolutely should see a dodge feature for heavier armours. And lighter armours. And no armour. The only thing that should impair dodging (not rolls, rolls are incredibly stupid) is total encumberance, which again shouldn't be based on an arbitrary weight class. Edited December 15, 2015 by Lachdonin

[blattgeist]

Lachdonin

 

We absolutely should see a dodge feature for heavier armours. And lighter armours. And no armour. The only thing that should impair dodging (not rolls, rolls are incredibly stupid) is total encumberance, which again shouldn't be based on an arbitrary weight class.

I was referring to rolls too, when talking about not implementing for heavier armors. Dodge is fine with all.

 

Lachdonin

 

Wearing enough leather to protect you in any reasonable way is still going to come out between 30 and 50 pounds.

 

Well a full plate armor (with helmet, greaves, gauntlets, chest piece) should weight considerably more than 30-50 pounds.

 

Lachdonin

 

The more you wear, the more they restrict movement. So a full, head to toe covering of Leather is going to impair you the same as a full plate harness.

 

With the exception of plate still being heavier and more restraining because it's made out of metal.

 

Lachdonin

 

But by keeping the Light-Medium-Heavy divide, you basically create a situation where you need to maintain competitive equilibrium between them or you risk totally invallidating options. You can't make Light protect you from Magic, Heavy protect you from Physical attacks, and Medium do both, because it creates an obvious choice and heavily impairs the other two.

 

Yes it needs a competitive equilibrium. And one type being inferior to another with regards to magical damage reduction, the ability to avoid physical attacks or reduce them leads to more variation and player choice for different situations depending on the location. I.ex. if you know that you are facing a lot of heavily armed orcs in a fortress with not many casters then you're gearing up in heavy armor yourself. On the other hand if you are going to eradicate a hagraven camp then it would be wise to gear in light armor that protects you from magic, assuming we take on your approach of light armor being more resistant to magic.

 

It does not mean having to carry around different types of armor. Light armor protects to a certain degree too, not as much as heavy armor... although one could argue that the chinese used paper armor that was almost as effective as plate (according to a colleague of me) but light in comparison. You could as well store them in your home. But we have different opinions there. Who knows what Bethesda will do and what not. We will see. :wink:

Edited December 15, 2015 by blattgeist

[Boombro]

 

With the exception of plate still being heavier and more restraining because it's made out of metal.

Nah, heavy armor made of steel and iron are very easy to move in. It weight spread across your body and you hardly feel it. In fact, being fat will hinder your movement way more than an armor of steel. You can run, swim and do back flips in it easily with a bit getting used to. There is also many metal types armors made to be even lighter, like scaled armor and chain metal if I'm not wrong.

 

For the armor types and how to make them different, I have an idea.

 

Caster, they are clothing duh.

 

Light, faster stamina regen, movement speed and faster dodging.

 

Heavy, lower stamina regen, movement speed and instead of a dodge, you get a back step and less stagger/poise from attacks.

[blattgeist]

 

Nah, heavy armor made of steel and iron are very easy to move in. It weight spread across your body and you hardly feel it. In fact, being fat will hinder your movement way more than an armor of steel. You can run, swim and do back flips in it easily with a bit getting used to. There is also many metal types armors made to be even lighter, like scaled armor and chain metal if I'm not wrong.

Fair enough. I must admit that I've never worn a heavy armor so can't speak of experience. I always thought that they must be somewhat restrictive and clunky.. but oh well.

 

 

Heavy, lower stamina regen, movement speed and instead of a dodge, you get a back step and less stagger/poise from attacks.

 

Don't forget spell fizzle chance, if we could bring some D&D rules to the table ;)

[Lachdonin]

 

 

With the exception of plate still being heavier and more restraining because it's made out of metal.

 

Nah, heavy armor made of steel and iron are very easy to move

Exactly. Regardless of the type of armour you're wearing, you're looking at between 30 and 60lbs. The difference in encumberance comes from how the material moves, and how it's carried. More pliable armours, like soft-Leather and Maille, are actually harder to move in pound for pound because if the way they distribute weight. Whereas Plate is partially self-supporting, 'softer' armours rest entirely on the body and limbs, requiring greater effort to move them. This is part of the reason why plate became so popular regardless of where it was developed (it was developed independently in India, China, Japan and Europe).

 

So, the weight thing has never made much sense. A suit of Leather armour (sufficient to protect you, mind you. Most leather is useless for Armour and isn't going to stop squat. Parts of the world with access to heavier hides, particularly elephant, made more use if leather than, say, Europe and Asia) weighs about the same as a suit of Plate. The Pate is just far more protective.

 

In a highly simplified sense, there are 7 types of armour.

 

Cloth- Yes, cloth. Cloth armour was in fact the Armour of choice for the poor, and formed part of the armouring of wealthier individuals typically as a padded undergarment over which useful armour was worn. It typically consisted of layers of padded or quilted cloth sewn on top of a leather jerken and... Well... It sucked. It offered minor benefits against impacts, as it was padded, and could protect you against glancing hits, but it was easy to cut, easy to pierce, and any killing blow was going to hit harder than a few layers if flax and hay could absorb. It was cheap, though, and some protection was better than none. It was commonly worn under a linked set of metal bars that were intended to give better protection to the arms, particularly.

 

Leather- once boiled leather remains pliable and, if thick enough, can offer minor protection against cutting. It was more commonly used by craftsmen and butchers to ward against accedental injury. Unless extremely thick, it's basically useless against piercing and it's soft, pliable nature makes it poor against impact.

 

Hardened Leather- you can submerged leather in boiling oil or water to harden it, forming plates which can mimic proper plate armour, but are far les durable. They are resistant to cutting, piercing and Blunt force, but tend to crack and split easily, making them not particularly useful in a fight. They were very good for decoration, though.

 

Scale Armours- both as hardened leather and metal scales, they basically offer good protection against cuts and, because of a more rigid overlapping structure, blunt force, but are very vulnerable to piercing. It's also not really the bet for protracted use, as the links tend to be easily cut and you regularly lose scales.

 

Maille/Mail- improperly called Chain Mail, Maille is made by interlocking rings of metal, typically iron and steel, forming a flexable coat of metal that is almost impervious to cutting, resistant to piercing, but offers no real protection against force. In fact, broken bones were very common with maille, because it didn't even stop the impact of swords.

 

Brigandine/splint- various sorts of armour consisting if overlapping metal plates, typically riveted to a leather or cloth coat. This is what is commonly misinterpreted as studded leather (which never existed) and basically offered the same protection as later plate, but was mkre difficult to move in. In this category is also the Lorica Segmentatta, a type of Roman Plate typically associated with the Legions, which was something of an emergency development during high-loss periods when they couldn't make Maille fast enough.

 

And finally you have Plate. It's highly resistant to impact and Piercing, almost impervious to cutting, and in later generations was so heavily articulated that it could cover virtually every joint in 4mm of tempered steel. It was so protective that it required the development of highly specialised weapons just to crack, and only fell out of use when firearms rendered it financially unfeasible. The image of a knight being hoisted onto his horse by a crane was a Victorian fabrication, and medieval plate armour in Europe, India, China and Japan was highly mobile, allowed for almost full range of motion and weighed less than modern military Kit.

 

There are some variations to this, of course. We have limited evidence of wooden armours, both from Europe and the Americas, and bamboo armour from parts of Asia. In Japan, there was also a variation of the cloth Gambeson which was made of silk, and offered considerably more protection (though was absurdly expencive and limited exclusively to the Samurai). China also did use layered paper armour, though the protective characteristics are debatable. Korean and Mongol records indicate it was garbage, and the Chinese say it was better than steel. I've never seen any practical tests done with it to say one way or another. Some areas, such as India and parts of Africa made wider use of Leather, due to access to Eyre supplies of heavier hides (most leather used in Europe was useless for armour. Only the shoulders of an adult cow or bull offered a thick enough hide, and it wasn't common to slaughter adult animals). People in the south Pacific used shark and Ray skin as armour, sometimes covered with shells, and there is limited evidence of stone armours being used in Africa. Bone was also sometimes used to make scaled armour, and examples survive from central Africa, Mesoamerica and Greece.

 

Anyway... Representing the actual qualities and capabilities of different types of armour just isn't possible in a simplistic Light-Medium-Heavy dynamic. You could carve it up into 7 skills, but that wouldn't be overly functional either as wearing different tyes of armour isn't that different. It's just moving with extra weight, more of an endurance thing than any special skill. There's also the specialised problem in TES that there are Plate armours in the Light category where they don't belong.

 

It's just easier to totally merge the skills and make Armour about various types of passive damage mitigation. Then you can dedicate the blank skill-spot to strict mobility, allowing people to mix and match as they please in a more diverse and more realistic model.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Lachdonin