Horses

[HugePinball]

For the sake of clearing my name I just want to be clear about what I mean about Rev-engineering the Oblivion horses. I didnt mean to mislead anyone into thinking I mean to copy or trace the TesIV horses, only to study how they are implemented into the game via their scripts and how they interact with the other game resources. Then with that understanding create original + paid for content that behaves similarly in a Fallout:NV setting. Am I wrong to think this would dodge copyright infringement. please correct me

Sorry scrivener, I meant to reply to this when you posted it.

 

To my mind your name has been clear throughout this entire thread. The only point that hinted otherwise was where you replied, somewhat in agreement, to the post that mentioned "tracing". That other post described a process that would almost certainly be infringement with unlicensed material, or at least highly questionable. In his defense, he asked "would that be legal?", and this is a common misconception and gray-area so I didn't see any ill intent there either.

 

My first response was an attempt to clarify that area, and also the definition and purpose of a license. Actually, I didn't really clarify what you were concerned about, because I think one way to put it is that a common misconception is that there is no gray-area there. You'll notice I didn't say anything until crossfirex flat-out stated, "Ok, copying a horse is not a illegal, so long as you make at least a few minor changes (Maybe a tail stripe or something)", which I think is why the first part of my reply sounded quite definitive. I think crossfire's statement was more a misunderstanding of that particular license (thinking you could only use those models if you modified them), but to anyone casually reading through it looks... different.

 

Back to your question. What you specifically describe - study the script and editor implementation of horses in Oblivion, then use that knowledge to independently implement horses using legal (whether paid or free) assets - in my opinion that's totally fine, and as I understand things, perfectly legal. It might be slightly gray if hypothetically Oblivion modding had never been allowed or encouraged by Bethesda; I think that gets into more legal technicalities, and I'm certainly no expert here so I really can't say. But as Ghogiel said more directly, it's largely pointless looking to Oblivion for understanding of the implementation because that particular support is non-existent in FO3/NV. But again, people have already made ridable vehicles and creatures via other methods, and I'm sure those methods could be improved as well, so by no means is this whole concept impossible.

 

 

 

Most of those horse mods linked used the Bethesda Oblivion Horse base models and anims

I had been waiting for someone to point that out ;). If anyone had picked a specific Oblivion horse mod and said "let's port this", I probably would have mentioned it.

 

EDIT: btw, make that "all of those horse mods". I had checked. And I doubt there would be a horse mod in Oblivion that didn't use any vanilla assets, unless someone was a major horse fanatic and really hated both how the existing horses looked and moved. And they had the skill or resources (that we're talking about in this thread) to get a completely new animated horse model in the game.

 

 

For those of you who have All Roads, Chance has a flashback of the Bitter Springs Massacre and the NCR ride in on horses.

I thought you were talking about a mod at first. It's this, a free download on iTunes. May have to check it out...

Edited December 14, 2010 by HugePinball

[myrmaad]

There is, or was at least one maybe two, that did not use vanilla meshes, but I'm not sure of the anims.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

I have a question I would like to ask, if an Admin is still watching this thread or anyone in the know--or better yet, an Admin in the know-- and I don't want anyone to misconstrue what I'm thinking about as condoning piracy or promoting piracy or anything like that, because I am not. I buy my games, I support Bethesda, and love what they give us...and don't want it to stop! :ohmy:

 

I have my own copy of Oblivion It has horses in it, and I would love to see, like others, horses in FONV. Even those horses, since people have coplained. My Oblivion-with-horses, my pc, in my home. No uploading owned assets. Right? Correct me here, guys, if my line of reasoning goes astray or perhaps more importantly, if it is too grey. :excl:

 

Now, could someone make a FONV esp that lets you use the horse stuff from your own legally-bought and private copy of Oblivion? I'm not talking about sharing assets online or anything, I repeat. And I'm not condoning the sharing of assets. You would have to have your own copy of Oblivion at home from which to use the horse, just using it somehow guided by someone else's created esp so that the stuff would work in FONV?

 

Could someone, an Admin, clarify this for me? Would this constitute piracy or condoning piracy? I thought I ran across a mod that worked this way in these last days, but I'm kind of fevery right now and maybe I'm not thinking straight. :sick: Thank you for your time.

[sagittarius22]

I contacted the man who made this:

 

 

I really hope he could help to make horses in New Vegas!

[Firewoodmix]

How about Giddyup Buttercup from the adverts in Fallout 3 : http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Wilson_Automatoys

[sagittarius22]

I got an answer, here it is:

 

Hi,

 

Yeah, I've played a little (few side quests) but unfortunately I didn't have the time to finish it and had no idea that you can mode it with new characters/monsters.

I'll look into it when I'll have the time.

 

People, if this guy decides working on it, I'm gonna make a statue for him.

[HugePinball]

I got an answer, here it is:

...

Well, he definitely has the modeling & animation skills, and he's at least played the game a little - both big pluses. If anything, I'd only send him the link to the NifTools site (info and tools for producing the required file formats from whatever app he's using), and let him take the next steps: http://niftools.sourceforge.net

 

 

Now, could someone make a FONV esp that lets you use the horse stuff from your own legally-bought and private copy of Oblivion? I'm not talking about sharing assets online or anything, I repeat. And I'm not condoning the sharing of assets. You would have to have your own copy of Oblivion at home from which to use the horse, just using it somehow guided by someone else's created esp so that the stuff would work in FONV?

 

Could someone, an Admin, clarify this for me? Would this constitute piracy or condoning piracy? I thought I ran across a mod that worked this way in these last days, but I'm kind of fevery right now and maybe I'm not thinking straight. :sick: Thank you for your time.

First a technical note, your particular example wouldn't be practical because the NIF format changed enough between Oblivion and FO3 where any models made in the Oblivion format would have to be manually converted to work and look right in FO3/NV. Even if someone provided detailed, step-by-step instructions for that process the average mod-user wouldn't be able to do it.

 

But putting any compatibility issues aside, no it's not piracy and as I understand things, not illegal as you describe it. The problem is that Bethesda does not approve of the use of assets in this way (using content from one game in another). In fact, they may not have any legal right to approve even if they wanted to. This is the same situation as Morroblivion, which attempted to incorporate all of Morrowind into Oblivion, but required the user to supply all the original game content (legally, one hopes), and so did not distribute any game assets. The issue was that Bethesda did not hold the copyright on all the assets in Morrowind; some were licensed for use in Morrowind from a third party. This is not at all uncommon. So they would have no legal say over the use of those assets in anywhere but the original game.

 

You might ask, why does that matter since Bethesda was not producing or distributing Morroblivion? I assume it works out like this: Bethesda supports and encourages modding Oblivion (and FO3 and F:NV) by providing modding tools and updates, forums specifically for discussion of modding, and information about the tools and games, as well as directly praising and promoting modding. If a project comes along that intends to use game assets in a way Bethesda could not themselves legally approve (like Morroblivion), especially with discussion about it taking place in their own forums, if they say nothing about it but let it continue, that could be seen as their tacit approval of that project and its use of assets. If they consulted a lawyer my guess is they'd be told to make at least some minimum efforts to curb such a project, at least in the domain where they have some influence, that is, their sites and the modding community around those games. So they state not to use assets from other games in mods, do not allow discussion of mods that do so on their forums, and in the case of Morroblivion, directly asked the Nexus and other large, legitimate sites not to support it as well.

 

EDIT: here is the TL;DR answer :blush:

So in a nutshell, a F:NV mod like you describe would not be allowed to be discussed or advertised in the Bethesda forums, and because the Nexus sites have maintained a good relationship with Bethesda, and would like it to continue, it most likely would not be allowed here either.

 

 

Now before you say all that is ridiculous, look at the equivalent situation from a modder's perspective. Say you're making a big mod (or even a not-so-big mod) and you find some cool new models you want to use in it. You contact the author and he gives you permission to use them in your mod. That permission is essentially an informal license, and unless stated otherwise by that author should be assumed to apply only to use within that particular mod. Meaning when you release your mod, you don't have the right to tell anyone they may use the assets created by that author which they downloaded in your mod for other purposes. I know many authors release their own work as free-to-use or "no permission needed", which is great; even in those cases it's a good idea to refer people to those authors' permissions statements.

 

So basically, the concepts behind copyright and licensing are exactly the same that allow a modder to require permission (or not) for use of their work, and for sites like the Nexus to require that you have that permission in order to upload and host their content.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry for the long post, but it's still related to issues brought up previously in this thread. In the interest of the "horses in FO3/NV" topic, I'd suggest if anyone wants to further discuss copyright/licensing issues make a new topic, or someone particularly interested in the horse topic make a new one summarizing any of the important things mentioned so far. The legal issues could be adequately summarized by just saying "you can't use Oblivion assets (or mod assets based on them)", and if that's not enough for anyone, point them back to this thread.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

This is the same situation as Morroblivion

Ah, you are totally correct. That's what I get for trying to think when feverish and the neurons aren't sparkling all together.

 

A long (but appreciated) answer that sums it up perfectly, thank you.

[Ghogiel]

BTW imo tracing a new mesh as a cage around another persons mesh is not infringment in anyway. technically that's what I often do when I model anyway. cept instead of someones mesh I use a front and profile image to trace against. well most of the time I have one or the other, front or side views and just go from there.

 

granted tracing someone elses mesh is totally boring and crap. And I'd never do it. I would probably do a better job.

 

As for that dude with the horse, tell him to hit me up if he gets stuck, I can export the mesh, skeleton, and animations to F3 workable assets. well sort of. I imagine I would have to prep the whole damn thing and do some animating to make sequences f3 understands...second thought, no don't hit me up, I have like 4 projects on the go right now. all of them are rather big... :S

[scrivener07]

BTW imo tracing a new mesh as a cage around another persons mesh is not infringment in anyway. technically that's what I often do when I model anyway. cept instead of someones mesh I use a front and profile image to trace against. well most of the time I have one or the other, front or side views and just go from there.

 

granted tracing someone elses mesh is totally boring and crap. And I'd never do it. I would probably do a better job.

 

As for that dude with the horse, tell him to hit me up if he gets stuck, I can export the mesh, skeleton, and animations to F3 workable assets. well sort of. I imagine I would have to prep the whole damn thing and do some animating to make sequences f3 understands...second thought, no don't hit me up, I have like 4 projects on the go right now. all of them are rather big... :S

 

what a tease :no: