Pardon me, I Apoligize!

[dpgillam]

How to put this.....

As a former member of the US military, I was sworn to protect the US constitution, which guarantees citizens the right to keep arms. The is an organization within the US military that has sworn to treat the government as an enemy should it attempt to order the disarming of the public. That bis how seriously we take our oath to protect the Constitution.

 

Was the cop in danger?

Within 5 punches, a 300lb (that'd be 21+ stones for you Brits) man can cause permenant brain damage or death from a basic "ground and pound", that is knocking someone flat to the ground and punching repeatedly in the head; in Brazilian Jiujitsu, its known as a "full mount" and punches.

 

Facts are that the moron, known to be wanted for a crime, attacked the cop, ran away, and then charged back. Of course the cop shot; having already been attacked once, he expected to be attacked again by someone who's bare hands are deadly weapons, simply due to size and bulk. The cop simply did as he was trained. Why? Because 300 pound morons hopped up on drugs do stupid things, and are big enough to maim or kill, even without weapons.

 

The thug comes from a society where for the last 30 years, they've been singing songs about how great it is to kill cops, with such classics as "F%&K da Po-lice", and brainwashing each other to hate anything wearing what resembles a uniform. There's a reason its mandatory for officers to wear body armor while on duty.

 

Starting with Zimmerman, and going to Baltimore just recently, there have been 6 dead black men that caused riots. And only the one in SC seems odd. The rest? All evidence, from the start of the story on through, shows criminals in the process of being arrested fought cops. the only wrong-doing of the cops keeps turning out to be lies of the media or "witnesses" who later admit to lying. And I dont see anger from the animal torching their own neighborhoods; they laugh and party as they loot, kill, and burn in front of national news the same blocks they live on. Rabid animals, and stupid to boot.

 

You dont shoot a rabid animal to punish it. You shoot it to protect the rest of society. No matter how many legs it walks on.

[Daedthr]

How to put this.....

As a former member of the US military, I was sworn to protect the US constitution, which guarantees citizens the right to keep arms. The is an organization within the US military that has sworn to treat the government as an enemy should it attempt to order the disarming of the public. That bis how seriously we take our oath to protect the Constitution.

 

Was the cop in danger?

Within 5 punches, a 300lb (that'd be 21+ stones for you Brits) man can cause permenant brain damage or death from a basic "ground and pound", that is knocking someone flat to the ground and punching repeatedly in the head; in Brazilian Jiujitsu, its known as a "full mount" and punches.

 

Facts are that the moron, known to be wanted for a crime, attacked the cop, ran away, and then charged back. Of course the cop shot; having already been attacked once, he expected to be attacked again by someone who's bare hands are deadly weapons, simply due to size and bulk. The cop simply did as he was trained. Why? Because 300 pound morons hopped up on drugs do stupid things, and are big enough to maim or kill, even without weapons.

 

The thug comes from a society where for the last 30 years, they've been singing songs about how great it is to kill cops, with such classics as "F%&K da Po-lice", and brainwashing each other to hate anything wearing what resembles a uniform. There's a reason its mandatory for officers to wear body armor while on duty.

 

Starting with Zimmerman, and going to Baltimore just recently, there have been 6 dead black men that caused riots. And only the one in SC seems odd. The rest? All evidence, from the start of the story on through, shows criminals in the process of being arrested fought cops. the only wrong-doing of the cops keeps turning out to be lies of the media or "witnesses" who later admit to lying. And I dont see anger from the animal torching their own neighborhoods; they laugh and party as they loot, kill, and burn in front of national news the same blocks they live on. Rabid animals, and stupid to boot.

 

You dont shoot a rabid animal to punish it. You shoot it to protect the rest of society. No matter how many legs it walks on.

 

As I have said many times, I don't blame Wilson for acting in the way he did, what he did was completely understandable considering the situation and his training. I was merely stating that it would be an improvement for policing if lethal weaponry was not used, because having power generally escalates conflict (e.e.g Cold War) and because any conflict that will occur with such weaponry will have more extreme results. However due to private armament in the States removing firearms from the police force is not an option, but ideally you would get rid of both private armament and then could remove lethal weapons from the police force eventually. I also understand that the nature of your country will ensure that this will never happen, but this doesn't mean that lethal weaponry in the police isn't still a problem, it is simply a problem caused by another problem which will never be solved.

 

 

How to put this.....

As a former member of the US military, I was sworn to protect the US constitution, which guarantees citizens the right to keep arms. The is an organization within the US military that has sworn to treat the government as an enemy should it attempt to order the disarming of the public. That bis how seriously we take our oath to protect the Constitution.

 

Don't try to appeal to me on the strength of your or others convictions, appeal to me with reason. The conviction within your armed forces that the right to bear arms is a good one literally means nothing for the argument that it is in fact good. Plenty of people have had convictions as extreme as this about other things (I mean just look at Himmler's convictions about Jews), but this doesn't mean their convictions are anywhere near right. The fact that there exists a group within the military that would treat the body that rules your country as an enemy should they attempt to bring lawful (not to mention positive) change to your country is not something to be proud of, it is something to fear. Government authority should always supersede that of the army, the fact that there are people in your army who believe they know better than any potential government on an issue and are also willing to use their government-given power to demonstrate it, is a very serious issue.

 

 

As for Baltimore, the truth is that it was part pure opportunism by some looters, and part an outpouring of decades worth of bad feeling between the police and black communities. Like what happened in my country in the 2011 London riots, something starts out with a legitimate cause and then spirals out of control when violence and opportunism take over.

 

I'm not condoning Baltimore as violent rioting is never the answer, but it is not fair to say that the cause of these riots is purely the responsibility of the black community. Your country (and mine for that matter) has a very troubled, wshistory when it comes to racial equality, and despite what your media will have you believe there are still people alive today that experienced horrific levels of Racism in their past. Furthermore, the idea that the time of Racism is over in your country is a myth, it is simply not true, there is racism everywhere against black communities, and while the vast much of the police force in your country might have no racial leanings what so ever, some of it does.

 

http://-teesa-.tumblr.com/post/118237657050

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/80-per-cent-of-missouri-towns-police-quit-after-election-of-first-black-mayor-10190057.html

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Freddie_Gray (This is heavily related to Baltimore, and while there is still some ambiguity, the fact that 80% of this man's spine at the neck was severed during or whilst being taken into police custody warrants enquiries of Racism).

 

http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/virginia/2015/04/28/natasha-mckenna-death-inmate-taser-mentally-ill/26543601/

 

Again, I'm not criticising your police force as a whole, but I am saying that there have been plenty of events that are cause for concern when it comes to racism, and racism in the police force is never acceptable, as it is meant to be an objective institution created for the benefit of society.

 

Where I live racism against black communities is relatively low, but there is still a fair amount of racism towards middle-eastern communities (though arguably that too is on the down) and some Eastern European people. However the difference between this and the USA is that there is relatively little evidence that the police here are racist, or that racism is in any way institutionalised to the extent that evidence might indicate it is in your country.

 

Your comment about the SC case simply isn't true, there have been numerous 'odd' black deaths related to the police in recent years, just look at the two I posted above. I can get you more links if you would like.

 

As for this "thug culture" that you seem to be implying purveys black communities, let me ask you where you think (if it really exists), it came from?

 

There is anti-police culture in every country in the West, and it is a vicious cycle. Something happens to cause a rift between a community and the police, the community adopts anti-police culture, they are now more likely to cause incidents with the police, the police respond in kind and the cycle begins anew.

 

When it comes to an issue like this, I believe that it is the job of the police and not the community to push hard for change. Why? Because the police force ultimately exists for the good of society and not for itself, therefore one of it's central priorities should be to ensure that it has a healthy rapport with all different groups. The police is built around protecting and accommodating society and should therefore react accordingly, social groups and society is not built around accommodating the police. Also in the case of your country the "something" that started this vicious cycle is a long history of highly institutionalised racism, and preceding that, slavery. This "something" is huge, it is PERFECTLY understandable that there are still many black communities around today that harbour enmity for the police, it is the job of the police to try and react accordingly to defeat this enmity and ingratiate themselves with these communities. It is not the job of these communities to try and accommodate the police, the police should be there for them, not the other way around. Of course this doesn't mean they shouldn't try, but the burden of effort is on the force.

[MajKrAzAm]

In America, if you are black and grow up with no criminal record, and a college degree, then you can do much better than policing the community that produced you. So ghettos tend to be policed by marginal outsiders without a large investment or understanding of the culture. This results in an alienated and hostile police force.

 

I can understand why a cop would feel like an occupying force. Every cop in the country wakes up in the morning and knows his day is going to be filled with nothing but fat, slovenly, dumb, irresponsible, television watching WalMartians and thieving, murderous congenital thugs who will shoot at them for almost no reason. They know that doing their actual job – terminating the violent elements of inner cities - is totally illegal from top to bottom, that they will not only get shot at by these thugs but sued, reprimanded and demoted along with having their town sacked by the only people who are legally allowed to destroy civilization with streets full of fire and blood.

 

Cops are bad-tempered because they are the front line clean-up crew in a vast dystopia, and they aren't even allowed to clean it up.

[Daedthr]

In America, if you are black and grow up with no criminal record, and a college degree, then you can do much better than policing the community that produced you. So ghettos tend to be policed by marginal outsiders without a large investment or understanding of the culture. This results in an alienated and hostile police force.

 

I can understand why a cop would feel like an occupying force. Every cop in the country wakes up in the morning and knows his day is going to be filled with nothing but fat, slovenly, dumb, irresponsible, television watching WalMartians and thieving, murderous congenital thugs who will shoot at them for almost no reason. They know that doing their actual job – terminating the violent elements of inner cities - is totally illegal from top to bottom, that they will not only get shot at by these thugs but sued, reprimanded and demoted along with having their town sacked by the only people who are legally allowed to destroy civilization with streets full of fire and blood.

 

Cops are bad-tempered because they are the front line clean-up crew in a vast dystopia, and they aren't even allowed to clean it up.

 

Yeah, I would not want to be a policemen, they have one of the hardest and most depressing jobs you can find. Understand that I am in no way anti-police, I speak purely from principle rather than practicality, I understand that policemen can find things as hard as the members of the communities that hate them do.

 

I think ultimately the only way these problems will be rectified is with a concerted effort from both groups to understand each other, even though I believe it is more the duty of the police to do so more, it would not be a reasonable expectation for fallible humans.

[Fraklestar]

This topic has been an interesting read, I really enjoyed @Daedthr's posts, full of reason and interesting links. me like.

 

As for myself, I struggle with understanding American police culture. I live in Norway, our police do not carry arms, yet it is estimated that about 1/3 of the population have weapons (I come from an area with a lot of hunting myself, and there pretty much everyone has a rifle or two).

 

Having seen many of the videos that have surfaced in the past few years, I genuinely feel sorry for the US police. It seems that in many states/districts violence towars the perpetrator is not only acceptable, but it is the only way the police know how to deal with them (note: I am basing this on things I have seen and read about online, and have never actually spoken to any US police). In Norway, treating people like this, and I don't mean shooting some man who you feel is threatening you, but beating up or throwing people onto the ground after they have been restrained, it is TOTALLY FRAKING UNACCEPTABLE. Police here are taught several techniques on how to de-escalate a bad situation, and not to react with violence at all.

 

There is a big difference between our two countries here. This link is the most popluar youtube video about Norwegian police: https://youtu.be/Cd8ZTKU8csw

 

Not exactly scary, is it?

[HeyYou]

Trouble is, the racism (the underlying cause of the issues here) is coming from both sides. It isn't just one-way. There are some in both communities that simply don't WANT to understand the other. They want everything 'their way', and anything less is unaccpetable. Impasse.

 

Oh yes, racism is alive and well in the US. No doubt about it. And the mass media is one of the major contributors to the problem. If a white cop shoots a non-white person, it is plastered all over the media. You will rarely, if ever, see anything about a non-white cop shooting a non-white, or a non-white cop shooting a white person. Why? Because that doesn't stir the pot of emotional reaction. You don't see rioting, and whole neighborhoods destroyed in those cases either.

 

Not to mention the 'communities' banding together (intentionally, or not.....) and supporting a story that paints the cop in the worst possible lite. Recently, a cop shot an 18 year old non-white, who had ostenisbly fired HIS weapon at the police first. The community reaction? "The cop planted the gun, and the empty cartridges around the body, to frame the kid.".......

 

And the Micheal Brown case as well. It was demonstrated that a fair few of the witnesses flat out LIED about what happened. Some of them, weren't even near the scene.... yet they saw what happened.....

 

Unfortunately, I see this as a problem, that does not have a solution. At least, not something that would be acceptable to all parties concerned. This is a problem we have been poking at for decades, and quite frankly, not much has changed.....

[Daedthr]

Trouble is, the racism (the underlying cause of the issues here) is coming from both sides. It isn't just one-way. There are some in both communities that simply don't WANT to understand the other. They want everything 'their way', and anything less is unaccpetable. Impasse.

 

Oh yes, racism is alive and well in the US. No doubt about it. And the mass media is one of the major contributors to the problem. If a white cop shoots a non-white person, it is plastered all over the media. You will rarely, if ever, see anything about a non-white cop shooting a non-white, or a non-white cop shooting a white person. Why? Because that doesn't stir the pot of emotional reaction. You don't see rioting, and whole neighborhoods destroyed in those cases either.

 

Not to mention the 'communities' banding together (intentionally, or not.....) and supporting a story that paints the cop in the worst possible lite. Recently, a cop shot an 18 year old non-white, who had ostenisbly fired HIS weapon at the police first. The community reaction? "The cop planted the gun, and the empty cartridges around the body, to frame the kid.".......

 

And the Micheal Brown case as well. It was demonstrated that a fair few of the witnesses flat out LIED about what happened. Some of them, weren't even near the scene.... yet they saw what happened.....

 

Unfortunately, I see this as a problem, that does not have a solution. At least, not something that would be acceptable to all parties concerned. This is a problem we have been poking at for decades, and quite frankly, not much has changed.....

 

That's the gist of it, your country's history (and mine as well though perhaps to a lesser extent) has created an environment in which Racism is incredibly hard to deal with, as it is self-perpetuating.

 

The only solutions I could really think of are another World War to unite the country, a revolution of some kind, or possibly an incredibly effective campaign run by some very charismatic people on both sides (think Martin Luther King but bigger, with multiple King's some of which would be white).

 

Sadly, most likely to happen of those is a World War. : /

Edited May 20, 2015 by Daedthr

[MajKrAzAm]

American media is driven by a hysterical narrative that says it’s open season on blacks, but yet ignores the massive black violent crime epidemic. Those who have never lived in the US but use US media get this hackneyed narrative that is the opposite of reality.

One notices this arrogance from Europeans on discussions about crime in America. They present the party line (blacks are being discriminated against by employers, the police, white flight, the educational system and basically everyone for no good reason whatsoever) as obvious truth and hint at the ingrained bigotry of white Americans as the primary cause of black dysfunction. There's not the least bit of interest in investigating the mechanisms that turn black ghettos into civilizational wastelands; I get the feeling that European journalists, as well-travelled and over-educated as they may be, cannot even fathom a reason for persistent racial inequality and strife other than irrational hatred.

That said, most police in major cities and suburbs are worthless. They abuse their authority, are not very smart, and rape taxpayers with their bloated early retirements. Most of them have an "us vs. them" mentality which enables their worst inclinations. They will happily shoot you and your dog. Increasingly it's not the law you need to stay within but a cop's good graces.

[MotoSxorpio]

America, these United States of America, consist of 50 independent states. Each state has its own constitution. Each state has its own laws that conform to the Federal statutes. Disarming USA would take a major shift in values...and a lot of votes.

 

As long as people don't vote, nothing will ever change. Go to the polls...the ballot box awaits. If you don't vote, then you don't have the right to b&@*$ and moan about policy.

 

Both Ferguson and Baltimore riots seemed a lot like a reason to loot than an expression of oppression. Baltimore's community handled it much better, since there are still minor riots and whatnot happening in Ferguson to this day, while Baltimore leaders (church, community, business owners) made an effort to ebb the rioting.

 

 

Increasingly it's not the law you need to stay within but a cop's good graces.

It is probably a better idea to stay in the cops' good graces and just get a lawyer and let the lawyer sort things out. The more you confront a cop, the more reason they have to pull that lethal on you. Sue the cop later, but by all means do not run away from or towards the cop...especially if you are bigger. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner)

[HeyYou]

And for todays "WTF" moment..... we now have Ferguson protesters complaining that they aren't getting PAID! Isn't that novel. :)