Paid mods for skyrim workshop on steam

[sayjimwoo]

Modders have started to put the latest mod versions only on Steam (behind a pay wall). If the majority of modders do this, does this mean the slow downfall of Nexus?

Edited April 26, 2015 by sayjimwoo

[SpeedFreak1972]

Well probably not for instance Isoku said he will upload the new versions after 30-60 days to the Nexus. Also keep in mind older version doesn't need to be bad ... they will work often just as good if not better however with less options.

[stoaty6666]

also its going both ways,better vampires has closed their steam mod and will only be avilable on nexus

[pandachan90]

I'd even like to vouch for modders to use that delayed style of releasing, as I think that at this point that is the most favorable and perhaps only outcome that doesn't completely destroy modding.

 

A lot of damage is being done to the scene, let's hope that the best of the modders set a good example.

[daede]

Please forgive the long post but if you bear with it I believe you will find it worth your time reading.

 

Seeing as more and more people appear to be highlighting the 25% split that Modder’s, from here on called 'Unofficial Content Developers' (UCD's), are getting as the single biggest problem with this whole debacle I feel it needs to be pointed out once again that 25% is on the extreme high side of what any actual original game Development team would get paid. Steam has essentially since it's inception and certainly since it's popularisation always taken a 30% cut as the Distributer. Publishers of any reasonable size have always taken the larger cut of what remains after the Distributer got theirs. Developers have always and most likely will always get the shortest possible end of the stick even more so when the Developer staff is in house to the Publisher. It is not fair; It is not right; it is, however, how it is and always has been and the direct result of and fundamental principal of the capitalist system whose altar all those pro paid Modder’s are worshipping at.

 

Many people seem to be confusing the difference between an App store like Apple's 'iCrap' or whatever *censored* it's called and the 75% they give and an Add On store like Steam Workshop. Apple only take 25% because they are acting as Distributer and Distributer alone, that most Developers choose to act as both Publisher and Developer thereby taking home the entire remaining 75% is because those Developer are not under any obligation to an existing Publisher. An Add On store is a completely different beast, it is entirely liable to the initial Publisher of whatever it is Adding On to. In this case that Publisher is, of course, choosing to take the lion’s share which they feel entitled to given that without their investment there wouldn't be anything to Add On to in the first place. Even so they are still leaving a higher than industry standard 25% for the Developer (in this case Unofficial Content Developer).

 

Again I say by all means lament the injustice of it, not for the sake of Modder’s but for the sake of the actual original game Developers who did all the work in creating the game and got far far less than 25% but please do not for a second be so ignorant as to forget those actual Developers. It is certainly not impossible that should everyone cry loud enough about this 25% it may, in the case of the Steam workshop, be increased; but given the magnitude of threat such an outcome would pose to the Publisher, and the entire structure of the industry they have worked so hard to manipulate into being, it is extremely unlikely.

 

So assuming this Distribution of Monies does not change let's break it down in a more comprehensive manner that I have yet seen posted anywhere and see where it ends up.

 

 

There seems to be a significant amount of misinformation and miscomprehension about this distribution so I will first list the FACTS as they have been outlined by STEAM.

 

30% goes to 'Steam' as the Distributor.

Should an 'Unofficial Content Developer' (UCD) elect to do so 16.65% of Steam's share can be paid to a so called 'Service Provider' elected from a Steam approved list of such. In the case of multiple chosen 'Service Providers' the 16.65% of Steam's share would be divided equally amongst them.

 

45% goes to 'Bethesda' as the Publisher.

An undisclosed amount of the Publisher's share, though almost certainly 0%, goes to the 'Original Development Team'.

 

25% goes to the 'Unofficial Content Developer' (UCD) as the Developer.

A variable amount up to 30% of UCD's share goes to the 'Internal Revenue Service' of the 'United States Federal Government' as Taxation.

 

 

Or to put it in brief...

 

$1.00 Listed Price

$0.25 Steam

$0.05 Service Provider

$0.45 Bethesda

$0.17 Unofficial Content Developer

$0.08 United States of America Internal Revenue Service.

 

 

Now that we have the FACTS and whilst we have these figures in front of us we could have a little fun with them and see just what would be needed for a UCD to earn minimum wage selling a mod for the rather high price of $1.00 USD. In the United States of America the minimum hourly wage rate is currently around $7.25 USD per hour, assuming an average full time working week of 45 hours that is an approximate wage of $325.00 USD per week. So for our hypothetical UCD this means that they would have to sustain a minimum new user purchase rate of 11 per hour up to a total of nearly 2000 new user purchases per week. This would be an absolute best case scenario, if we were to use endorsements as a guide to what people may pay for, almost 99% of all mods currently available at the Nexus have significantly less than 2000 endorsements the overwhelming majority of Mods are barely in the hundreds of endorsements. In short any UCD thinking they can turn to Modding full time is delusional! Even thinking one could receive financial compensation commensurate to the amount of time put into creating a Mod is ridiculous, unless of course you were to put very little time into creating the Mod.

 

In fact there are only five scenarios where this scheme could be of any real financial benefit to a UCD.

 

Scenario 1: Make a must have mod.

This scenario has many issues not least of which is actually conceiving, implementing and popularising such a mod within a timely manner. There is also an issue of replication, as soon as any mod starts to hint at entering this sort of domain you can bet there will be a host of copycat mods just around the corner that will eat into its popularity. In other words probably not going to happen and if it did it wouldn't last for very long.

 

Scenario 2: Make a really quick mod.

This is what most UCD's will try and do, spend as little time and effort as possible making something that is broadly appealing. This also has a host of problems first and foremost of which is competition, everyone else will be trying to do this and the market will quickly be flooded with these kinds of mods. Secondly there is the issue of support, unless your mod is nothing more than a single basic item introduced via console command there will be conflicts and issues come up that must be addressed thereby extending the time and effort spent on the mod. Finally the mod has to be half decent or you will develop low ratings and high refunds eventually leading to little or no existing or future mod sales.

 

Scenario 3: Copy and undercut an existing mod.

Obviously this involves finding a popular mod and either replicating it using original material or just stealing the existing material outright and publishing it for a cheaper price than the copied mod. The success of this strategy will depend on how well the Workshops DMCA takedown system functions and how often a UCD is willing and able to change their banking details and create a new Steam account. Unfortunately we will see quite a bit of this and its occurrence will only increase as more and more mods are uploaded to the Workshop thereby providing greater camouflage through sheer volume of numbers.

 

Scenario 4: Have little to no financial obligations and plenty of free time.

Basically this means either being a young teen or adolescent living under guardians who pay for your every need and wanting only to earn a little extra pocket change or some similar situation. There are so many problems with this scenario that I couldn't possibly list them all but they range from lack of experience heightening the likelihood of poor quality work to complications with taxation to the ramifications of a false perception of growing independence.

 

Scenario 5: Live in a country with a significantly lower minimum wage and high level unemployment.

This is my favourite scenario because of the punch line at the end. Essentially if a UCD was unfortunate enough to live in a region with no available and viable employment alternatives and a cost of living where an income of around $10.00 a week may be sufficient then they could conceivably sustain gainful independent employment making reasonable quality mods in a reasonable time per mod and reasonable quantity of mods per month. An issue here is that most regions where these circumstances could be found are non-English speaking regions and that language barrier would limit both the complexity, quality and publicity of the mod not to mention any technical support. There are other problems too such as a very real limit on the longevity and replayability of the game per individual player and the hard coded limit to the number of mods that each game can be played with as well as the more obvious limit to how much each player would be willing to spend on their game. These limits essentially place a hard cap on the amount of unique mods that could ever be sold, using the number of mods on the Nexus as a guide one would expect that cap to be well under 25,000. This scenario is pretty much the only one which could actually benefit the player being the most likely to produce something that could in some small way be worth buying and here is the punch line... This word turn the Steam Workshop into an actual Sweatshop :wink:

 

 

So what exactly does an average UCD get by charging people for their Mod?

• At best a scrap of pocket change.
• The slim chance of better Mod tools in future Moddable games given the extra revenue Mods will supply to Publishers.

 

And what of the cost a UCD pays by charging people for their Mod?

• Vastly fewer people actually experiencing their work (and as many seem to have forgotten that is why we Modder’s started releasing our Mods in the first place).
• Those few who actually do experience their work being drastically more critical of it (and rightly so).
• Should their work be decent or popular it will be copied, stolen and or pirated.
• Should their work be poor or faulty (and this being the internet even if it isn't) they can also expect spam messages, hate messages, cyber threats and cyber attacks.
• Should their work become outdated or incompatible they will be expected to fix it (and they damn well better understand that for paid work this is an obligation not a generosity).
• They are no longer a Modder but rather a paid Unofficial Content Developer and subject to all the legal obligations of any paid service provider (nobody seems to have comprehended this not so little fact yet and really it needs a post all of its own because the ramifications are truly staggering).

 

What then does the player get out of UCD's charging for their Mod?

• A small chance that a handful of very good Mods could come out in the not too distant future.
• A medium chance that a reasonable number of very small but reasonably average mods could come out in the not too distant future.
• A large chance that a vast number of very small poor quality mods some of which may have quirk appeal could come out in the not too distant future.

 

What does the player lose out on by UCD's charging for their Mod?

• A fractured Modding community.
• A far more hostile general community.
• An infinitely more secretive community when it comes to learning how to become a Modder.
• A lack, or eventually even total absence, of compatibility Mods.
• A lack, or eventually even total absence, of unification Mods.
• A smaller number of possible Mods active per game due to the lack of compatibility and unification Mods.
• A significantly increased total cost of ownership to play a Modded game.
• A smaller number of Mods made with any real passion given the UCD's desire to optimise profit by broadening the appeal of their Mods beyond their own interests.
• A smaller number of Mods servicing any specific niches given the UCD's desire to optimise profit by broadening the appeal of their Mod beyond specific niches.
• A smaller number of Mods containing or referencing proprietary intellectual property such as a Film, Television, Novel or other series due to the illegalities of selling such a Mod.
• A flood of garbage Mods making it more and more difficult to find the few Mods that may actually be worth trying.
• A risk albeit slim one that future games designed with Mods in mind may be less than they otherwise could have been due to Publishers limiting Official Developers initial work and or long term support under the assumption that Mods will pick up the slack.

 

I could go on and on but really what is the point? If you have actually read this far and still don't get it I am clearly incapable of explaining in a way that you would understand.

 

P.S.

I really didn't want to nor initially believe it would be necessary to make this post but my briefer comment seemed to be misunderstood to the extent that I felt I should elaborate and this is really kind of only the groundwork for that elaboration. If I can find the strength left in my beaten down soul to go on I will try to explain tomorrow the Ramifications of Modder’s becoming Unofficial Content Provider's and therefore legally obligated service providers which is what my brief comment was actually in regards to. This would seem to be especially important given that even Steam's lawyers seem to have somehow missed the issues that this raises.

 

[Deleted943341User]

I'm sorry for the length of the following text, especially after someone directly before me posted a longer text, but the topic is complicated and I think a shorter text wouldn't live up to this topic.

 

Hello to you all!

I want to share my view on the whole "paid-mod" topic. It's now three days and there was enough time to give the topic some thoughts.

Actually, I'm really sad at the moment. Not only coz of the "paid mods" (who has read my posts on steam forums, knows, I'm not a friend of them), but also coz of the behaviour of the so called community.

To discuss a topic, even with a bit heat is fine. To be against it and protest against it, is also fine. I don't think that petitions change anything (clicktivism has never changed anything), but that's a kind of expression, that's ok.

Even the negative reviews. In my view that's not justified, coz aside from the mod problematic, Skyrim is still one of the best RPG out there. But fine, if you think this will help, feel free.

What I really dislike is this total overreacting. Spamming, insulting and trolling in 1.000.000 Threads and comment sections, even in Topics where Newbies ask for help is not ok.

All this insulting and even threatening is absolutly not ok. Not against people with another opinion of this topic and also not against mod authors, no, not even against those, that set their mods behind the paywall or against Valve / Gabe. Such things are simply a nogo for civilized people.

And another thing, guys, get your facts right. I've read some abstruse arguments, that are more a conspiracy theory than anything other. This doesn't help, not even a bit, in the discussion.

Also: pirating those mods is in no way ok!

So an appeal to people on both sides: Please behave like civilized people, not like a wild Nerd-Rage Kiddy Mob. All those trolling, threatening and insulting helps nobody and only heads a flame war. There are some trolls, that are only there for this, please ignore them simply.

Now, let me continue on the topic itself.

Like mentioned above, I'm not a fan of this paid-mod system Valve introduced. But let me begin on the other side. YES, imho there are modders, that deserve to get something for their mods. There are mods, playing Skyrim isn't even imaginable without them. And I can totally understand, when some of those authors now made a paid version with the wish to get something back. I don't see even problems here on this alone, especially, if there still is a functional free version and the author tells: There may be some extra features from the new paid version missing, but the free version is functional and will stay functional.

Most of you have for sure already noticed, I'm talking now about SkyUI. Let's be honest: next to the unofficial Patches, SkyUI is one of the most important mods ever for Skyrim. I think they have totally deserved to get something back and the new paid-mod system gives them the chance for it. He even has vested, the free version will be hold functional. Or lets speak about Wet and Cold. Also there is the old free version still functional and the author wrote, he plans to upload the actual version in a month or two later also for free. Maybe not optimal but imho still ok. Who wants it now, pays, the rest of us waits for the free version or takes the older one. I'm actually fine with it.

If it only were this points, I actually had nothing about paid mods. I can live with them. So, why is it, that I nonetheless didn't like paid mods? This has different reasons and nearly all of them are well known.

- I don't like the way, the workshop works. Autoupdate with no way to go back to a earlier version is fatal for a modded skyrim installation. In the worst case I buy a mod what I can't use due to conflicts (or coz the author broke it). This way, workshop mods are a nogo for me.

- The Cut. I think we don't need to discuss here too much. While a big mod like SkyUI sure will still made a discreet sum, small mods will barely reach the payout limit from $100,- and when, that's for taxes when I'm not wrong, the "normal" modder wouldn't earn much. Sorry Valve + Bethesda, 25% for the modder is far to less. I understand you need your cut for making this possible and steam even has some costs with hosting and administrating, but you'll have to find another share. I say the modder deserves at least 50% of the sum.

- To much insecurity. 24h refund time is a bad joke. Who guarantees me support? Updates (of the game and of the mod) can break a mod, in bigger mods there is no way to come across every game breaking problem in the first 24h.

Who is responsible for the warranty, the law guarantees me, Valve? Bethesda? Or is it in the end the poor modder.

And who gives the modder security? Customer right laws all over the world are a real minefield. As it looks now, I'm fearing if really something happens, the modder is on his own. Neither Valve nor Bethesda would support them in a lawsuit. And yes, I'm positive, such a thing can actually happen.

- Complicated right situations. Many mods are the work of not only one person, but of many. There are assets used from others. The paid mods are only a few days old, but we already had problems in this direction. "Art of the catch" is already gone and ""Wet and Cold"" has an DMCA notice (even if it looks, like this will be clear up soon I think). I think especially here are so many legal tripping hazard, couldn't be fun for the modders.

- And then there are the people who will steal mods of others on purpose, only to try make some money with the work of others. Even with the possibility of DMCA Notices, I think Valve isn't doing enough here, to prevent this. And again, I bet nearly anything I have, if the worst comes, neither Valve nor Bethesda would help.

- A flooding of low quality Mods to rip off people. Some say money draws talent, I say money draws people who came for the money. Until now, the people decided to mod out of passion, maybe the wish for a little fame but never for the money. This will change. Now we get modders that didn't even know the game, before they heard, they can earn money with it. And many of them wouldn't care about things like quality or care for their mods.

Already seen some on the steam forums of that kind. I say: "No! Please! If money is your main motivation, please go, nothing to see here, we don't want you!".

- The fear that many good mods go behind a paywall without an alternative.

Those disadvantages together are far to much and so I come to the conclusion: Those paid-mods are a bad thing we don't need. Not this way.

Now someone may ask, what's the alternative solution? I think, like many others, Donations is a great way to go. Yes, I know the argument against it, they mostly didn't work and I must admit, that's how it looks. But I think we can change that. The main problem until now: Those whole "donations thing" what's already possible on Nexus has a problem: awareness. I'm honest, I haven't donated anything to mods until now. Why not, coz I'm a greedy bastard who doesn't grant anything to others? NO!

Mainly coz I wasn't really aware of this topic. This whole "paid mod" thing was it, what made me aware of the problematic here. This whole thing must be presented more prominent and even a bit more aggressive!

At last, let me talk about my personal consequences out of this.

- It's some time gone, since I've last played skyrim, and I've started a new game. :-)

- I'm more sensitive for this whole topic.

- I actually plan to make donations, at least to some mods. Unfortunately it's impossible to donate to everyone I think, at least at once. This said, there is a also another problem: Like I said, SkyUI deserves something for sure (regardless of "Omg they going behind the paywall", whats, how I showed, only partial true), but they don't have (anymore?) a donation button and, like I said, I dislike aside from paid-mods, workshop-mods in general plus I don't want spent money to valve / Bethesda. So it looks like there is actually no way to give them something back (left aside that a donation wouldn't give me access to Ver.5). So yes, dear authors of SkyUI: While I can understand your step, it prevents me somehow from rewarding you for your great mod.

This is a complicated topic and I've for sure forgotten some aspects but I think this wall of text is already long enough. Sorry for that!

And coz I'm not a native speaker, I've for sure done some cruelties to the English language, also sorry for that.

Now feel free to look up the photo of a nice potato for yourself (Imgurians and 9gaggers would understand, for the rest: don't think to hard over it, it isn't wort it. :wink: )

[RurikNiall]

 

 

Snip.

 

 

Just because it is the norm for people creating content for existing IP's to get screwed over and paid a pittance while whatever corporation holds the rights to that IP takes the lion's share doesn't make it right. If you ask me it just highlights a larger problem that exists outside of this that needs to be corrected.

[calabi]

I dont begrudge anyone getting the money they deserve for the things they create. But this whole system Valve and Bethesda has devised is just bad and everyone can see it's destroying the communities, and collaborations. I doubt better larger mod's will be created because of it.

 

I did have a thought and suggestion though, why not Mod Kickstarters instead. People generally dont donate because the mod is free and it's already there so no one feels the need to donate. So why dont Modder's pitch for features to implement ask for money to do so. There should be less liabilities and expectations on either side, the modder's would be obliged to fulfil there promise but they wouldn't necessarily be obliged to go beyond that.

 

The whole idea of paying for mod's isnt safe the whole infrastructure for mod's is almost a hack(well in some cases it really is). The system's Bethesda have in Skyrim for modding arent reliable enough.

 

The only way paid modding should work if it's for creating item's, clothes, model's visual/audio asset's of some kind or a robust safe quest editor. Not this mess that Skyrim has where you can edit all kind of variable's and create new code and come up with all kind's of exceptions and errors. It's ridiculous you cant have the buyer beware with something like that.

[Levantinium]

I dont begrudge anyone getting the money they deserve for the things they create. But this whole system Valve and Bethesda has devised is just bad and everyone can see it's destroying the communities, and collaborations. I doubt better larger mod's will be created because of it.

 

I did have a thought and suggestion though, why not Mod Kickstarters instead. People generally dont donate because the mod is free and it's already there so no one feels the need to donate. So why dont Modder's pitch for features to implement ask for money to do so. There should be less liabilities and expectations on either side, the modder's would be obliged to fulfil there promise but they wouldn't necessarily be obliged to go beyond that.

 

The whole idea of paying for mod's isnt safe the whole infrastructure for mod's is almost a hack(well in some cases it really is). The system's Bethesda have in Skyrim for modding arent reliable enough.

 

The only way paid modding should work if it's for creating item's, clothes, model's visual/audio asset's of some kind or a robust safe quest editor. Not this mess that Skyrim has where you can edit all kind of variable's and create new code and come up with all kind's of exceptions and errors. It's ridiculous you cant have the buyer beware with something like that.

 

The current paywall system needs a lot of work. It CAN be improved to make sense, unfortunately like project greenlight and early access, Valve just abandons it soon as it becomes a problem. At best, Paywall can be like third-party sellers on Amazon. Still risky, but only as an annoyance.

[Deleted31005User]

 

• An infinitely more secretive community when it comes to learning how to become a Modder.
• A lack, or eventually even total absence, of compatibility Mods.
• A lack, or eventually even total absence, of unification Mods.

Your post is absolutely spot on Daede, and those 3 things you mentioned are my biggest concerns as well, especially the first one.

This modding community thrives on open information flying around all over the internet, simply because there is no reason to keep it to yourself.

With money involved you need to make sure you have less competition or you actually lose money, so it the eyes of a "paid modder" its in hes best interest to not help anyone else.

So if less and less new modders are being supported and nourished with free tutorials and people actively helping them, how will this help the modding community or provide users with better or more mods?

People saying that this monetizing system of Steam could improve the quality of mods really need to look a bit further than the length of their own nose, true it might be an incentive for popular mod authors to make their mods better, but all the smaller modders are going to be pushed out simply because there is nothing to support them.

If there is no new blood learning the ropes then modding will slowly come to a crumble.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Guest