SpeedFreak1972 Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Well I thought about it and I must say ... is it really that bad? ... No everybody is on the barricades however paid mods are not new there are for instance mods for flightsims that are also paid and heck more than those mods on the workshop. That said I'm not happy however that valve does this I mean they haven't the best track record with greenlight. Look what's under review now .... bad mods from modders that are in it for the fast bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawoc Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) If anyone is interested, this just showed up in my feed on YouTube. Hopefully it's a good sign: I have to say that I've been sorely disappointed by a lot of Youtubers commenting on this. While I don't deny that they have valid points, some of which I agree with, not once do I feel that they've properly addressed some of the arguments and legitimate concerns brought forward by the opposition, instead sitting on their high horses, attacking strawman arguments - almost to the point of echoing each other - building a narrative that paints the opposition to Valve's system as a bunch of hateful, ungrateful trolls. Oh, and as a side-note, the "You don't complain about people making money off of Youtube videos"-argument, that I've heard some of them use, is nonsense. Youtube videos make money off of ad-revenue, not by each video being put behind an individual paywall, and I can guarantee that a lot of youtubers wouldn't have been half as successful as they are, had that been the case. I'm honestly surprised a lot of youtubers have chosen to adopt this transparently flawed argument. Edited April 27, 2015 by Dawoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RurikNiall Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Snip. You answered your own question there, we can criticise Bethesda precisely because the way they set it up is so bloody horrible. The fact they lie to our faces about it doesn't help either, they're not doing it for us, they're not trying to encourage bigger and better mods, they just wanted to make a quick buck off the hard work of the community. If the split were at least 75/25 in the modders' favour and Valve didn't expect you to make $400 just to get what you're owed I'd wager there'd be a lot less outrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupdragon1234 Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 After having thought hard about this over yet another night, I have come to the following conclusion. We, the modders, initiated this whole thing. We were the ones that created a way to get around the 'mods must be free' clause in the CK's EULA by setting up the donation system. Bethesda didn't do it, Steam didn't do it, WE did it. No modder ever made any significant amount of money out of it, but we made it a thing. WE were the ones that made the original arguments about how modders deserved compensation and how it would inspire new heights of creativity. Once the system was in place there's been constant complaints about how innefective it is. Bethesda is a business from the get go. They are not and never were a charity. They allowed and supported modding for no other reason than it makes good business sense. They made the games to begin with. They provided the Creation Kit, a modified version of the tool that created the game itself and provided it FREE OF CHARGE for modders to use, with only two main caveats. Modders can't steal copyrighted material to make mods and mods have to be free. How can we criticize Bethesda for looking at what we did and saying "Okay, you want to be compensated. We agree with you, here's a system that you can use to get paid for modding if that's what you want to do. BUT, we want OUR cut also." Now, the whole modding community is shaking itself apart because Bethesda did for us what we wanted but could not do for ourselves. WE are the hypocrites in this. EDIT: That said, the Steam model is a horrible model. Personally I believe that Valve/Bethesda's motivation behind this is pure profit and its been coming for some time as they've had their eye on the expansive modding for time else why the expense and inconvenience of establishing the Workshop in the first place? For altruistic reasons? I don't think so. While it may well be true that modders are being hypocritical about this in claiming the moral high ground and simultaneously hoping for a backhander I personally don't believe it has/had any impact on Valthesda's decision honestly it would have come anyway. My only real surprise is how clumsy and heavy handed this whole situation has been handled by Valthesda instead of going for the jugular of impacting the direct revenue stream by introducing a paywall they could have employed the indirect route such as ad-driven free content which is clearly a valid and apparently successful business model and saved themselves the ire and hostility and kept everyone happy (well everyone except Nexus, that is) but instead have come across as inept, remote, heavy handed and oh so very pompous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh0d4n Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) If anyone is interested, this just showed up in my feed on YouTube. Hopefully it's a good sign: I have to say that I've been sorely disappointed by a lot of Youtubers commenting on this. While I don't deny that they have valid points, some of which I agree with, not once do I feel that they've properly addressed some of the arguments and legitimate concerns brought forward by the opposition, instead sitting on their high horses, attacking strawman arguments - almost to the point of echoing each other - building a narrative that paints the opposition to Valve's system as a bunch of hateful, ungrateful trolls. Oh, and as a side-note, the "You don't complain about people making money off of Youtube videos"-argument, that I've heard some of them use, is nonsense. Youtube videos make money off of ad-revenue, not by each video being put behind an individual paywall, and I can guarantee that a lot of youtubers wouldn't have been half as successful as they are, had that been the case. I'm honestly surprised a lot of youtubers have chosen to adopt this transparently flawed argument. Jim (annoying) Sterling supports some of the main arguments against. https://youtu.be/NMZaYuXGYSI But i agree yt'ers like gopher and totalbiscuit come across as if they ain't got time or dont really care that much. They certainly dont seem to have looked at it very indepth. Perhaps because it wont effect them, or maybe because they are incapable of separating what they do with what is happening with the mod paywall. As you stated Davoc, its very different. Ads fund their paychecks, its the players who are being asked to fund this. I'm sure they will get free review copies of paywall mods though. My opinion > if it aint broke, it don't need fixin. Edited April 27, 2015 by sh0d4n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psijonica Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I dont begrudge anyone getting the money they deserve for the things they create. But this whole system Valve and Bethesda has devised is just bad and everyone can see it's destroying the communities, and collaborations. I doubt better larger mod's will be created because of it. I did have a thought and suggestion though, why not Mod Kickstarters instead. People generally dont donate because the mod is free and it's already there so no one feels the need to donate. So why dont Modder's pitch for features to implement ask for money to do so. There should be less liabilities and expectations on either side, the modder's would be obliged to fulfil there promise but they wouldn't necessarily be obliged to go beyond that. The whole idea of paying for mod's isnt safe the whole infrastructure for mod's is almost a hack(well in some cases it really is). The system's Bethesda have in Skyrim for modding arent reliable enough. The only way paid modding should work if it's for creating item's, clothes, model's visual/audio asset's of some kind or a robust safe quest editor. Not this mess that Skyrim has where you can edit all kind of variable's and create new code and come up with all kind's of exceptions and errors. It's ridiculous you cant have the buyer beware with something like that. You can't sell mods and you can't have donations. if there is money involved then Bethesda want s their cut. Do you think if I invited you to sleep over ar my home that I would allow you to invite your friends and let you charge them rent? LMAO Modding is about sharing... it is about fun... it is not about money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RurikNiall Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218 Brothers, sisters, we have won a hard fought victory this day. I thank everyone who yelled and screamed and fought like Hell to make this happen. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woltane Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Victory ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubbermatt Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 What are we supposed to do with all these flaming torches and pitchforks now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RurikNiall Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 There's always EA. :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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