Valve/Bethesda announce paid modding for Skyrim, more games to follow

[AKcelsior]

In response to post #24579484. #24579559, #24579659, #24579729, #24579749, #24579769, #24579849, #24579884, #24579969, #24580074, #24580224, #24580304 are all replies on the same post.

Nichoice wrote:

akkalat85 wrote: wow...

Nichoice wrote: => http://i.imgur.com/DItmsFn.jpg

OP has since been banned from Steam, and this was 6mins ago

Brasscatcher wrote: Holy s#*!. This is getting entirely out of hand. and it's freakin' DAY ONE!

I don't know whether I should grab popcorn and settle in to watch the fireworks(I suffer from acute schadenfreude), or go cry in the corner.

akkalat85 wrote: I wonder why Linear was banned though? The claim seems legit as fore openly said chesko didn't ask permission... something strange going on.

Jsmorris14 wrote: Just proof that this is what it will be like if this continues. I saved the picture

ValtielCurse wrote: Wow indeed. Fore my man!

akkalat85 wrote: It seems, at least on the surface, that Valve doesn't want the negative press from being caught letting users upload and profit off of other's free content. It's sad they would ban a user with a legit claim... This reeks of manipulation by Valve.

akkalat85 wrote: To add more controversy, the post has been deleted by mods now... I still have the picture saved though.

Ban users with legit claims backed by evidence and then delete all threads exposing it. Why Valve why?

Jsmorris14 wrote: I have a feeling valve will try to clean up any negative comments as fast as they come.
I have a week long ban for saying don't support them in monetizing mods lol

akkalat85 wrote: Someone had a thread with pictures of all the users banned for speaking up in threads. I could almost laugh, but this is serious. Censoring negative views. Freedom of speech? Only if your thread is positive and your speech skill > 99

Thank god the Nexus allows us to speak freely about this issue without fear of being banned for simply saying "this sucks".

WightMage wrote: Thanks for letting me know that they deleted the thread- I still have the page up and haven't refreshed/moved it yet. Print screening everything naow.

Oh and by the way, I loved your "Insignificant Object Remover" mod! Would you be interested in creating another one?

Thanks Wight! No, I'm more interested in creating other things. I've got a c# app that's due for Fallout 4. It will be free and has taken a lot of hours to code. I'll never charge, even if it's a big app like what I'm talking about. I don't even have a donate button. I believe in giving back to a community that has been a special part of my gaming life since Morrowind. It's the circle of life :)

I just updated the object remover mod today though (removing thickets because...). It will continue getting small updates removing anything I find that's worthless while I play.

[twisted630]

Hey guys, remember that $5 horse armor dlc which was a retexture that we all laughed at and made fun of? well put on yer boots and get out ye torches because it will make a return sooner or later and i feel its time to strike back is close..

 

 

 

[zanity]

In response to post #24579774. #24580049, #24580149 are all replies on the same post.

WightMage wrote:

marthgun wrote: its legit, i took my own personal screencaps of that. both of fore's reply saying he didn't authorize it and Chesko saying steam told him it was "fair game"

broke my heart. I hate to s#*! all over Chesko, maybe he has another side to this story, but that did not look good. It's not just Fore either, there are tons of people that worked on what i would call 'essential' utilities. without which modding your game or creating mods would be very difficult.

Jsmorris14 wrote: Its real. I was following it when he posted it.

Chesko should NOT be trying to sell versions of mods previously published on Nexus, plain and simple- but in his favour is the fact that Bethesda and Valve are actively encouraging such dishonest behaviour. To be legal, Chesko MUST create mods that have ZERO prior input from people expecting the mod to remain FREE. And bug finding and feature suggestions from emails and Nexus forum posts count as input that MUST be paid for - this is a simple fact of Law.

Chesko MUST create what is known as clean-room code and content- uncontaminated from the days when assistance was provided FOR FREE by people expecting the resultant mod would be free.

It does NOT matter how many people here liked his mods, or appreciated the work he did for free. To be LEGAL, Chesko must obey the Law. And that means new work 100% (one hundred percent) of his own ownership. I would imagine 99% of all significant mod authors at Nexus are lucky if their current mod would even count as 25% of their own work when all forms of derivation and unpaid assistance are taken into account.

Bethesda and Valve are literally saying "modding is the new Wild West, so scr*w the Law, and join the goldrush"- but given that these two get the lions share of the profits, we should not be surprised- but we most certainly should be saddened.

[marthgun]

In response to post #24580299.

spydar59 wrote:

If a mod author chooses to do this, they are ruining their rep. They brought that upon themselves. I'm more worried about what steam / beth decide to do with those rights. What about mods that change similar things hosted on the nexus, will those mods violate their copywrite ownership?

Nexus won't be able to fight that, they'll be deleting things left and right, there will be riots.

[popcorn71]

In response to post #24580299. #24580459 is also a reply to the same post.

spydar59 wrote:

marthgun wrote: If a mod author chooses to do this, they are ruining their rep. They brought that upon themselves. I'm more worried about what steam / beth decide to do with those rights. What about mods that change similar things hosted on the nexus, will those mods violate their copywrite ownership?

Nexus won't be able to fight that, they'll be deleting things left and right, there will be riots.

Thats part of releasing a mod. You do it knowing full well that Beth can lay claim to your work but you do it anyway to make your gaming experience better.
Its something else entirely when some other modder comes along and steals your work then turns around and sells it.

[xwydz]

In response to post #24578504. #24579089 is also a reply to the same post.

Erinaea wrote:

WightMage wrote: Wish I could see the vid- having youtube problems at the moment. Thanks for the summary though.

That statement is not entirely true.
Tb stated that Modders should be able to make money from their mods, as it is real work and he thinks that people should be payed for their work, one way or another.
But he suggested a more encouraged-donations based model (comparable to patreon)

[WightMage]

In response to post #24579484. #24579559, #24579659, #24579729, #24579749, #24579769, #24579849, #24579884, #24579969, #24580074, #24580224, #24580304, #24580369 are all replies on the same post.

Nichoice wrote:

akkalat85 wrote: wow...

Nichoice wrote: => http://i.imgur.com/DItmsFn.jpg

OP has since been banned from Steam, and this was 6mins ago

Brasscatcher wrote: Holy s#*!. This is getting entirely out of hand. and it's freakin' DAY ONE!

I don't know whether I should grab popcorn and settle in to watch the fireworks(I suffer from acute schadenfreude), or go cry in the corner.

akkalat85 wrote: I wonder why Linear was banned though? The claim seems legit as fore openly said chesko didn't ask permission... something strange going on.

Jsmorris14 wrote: Just proof that this is what it will be like if this continues. I saved the picture

ValtielCurse wrote: Wow indeed. Fore my man!

akkalat85 wrote: It seems, at least on the surface, that Valve doesn't want the negative press from being caught letting users upload and profit off of other's free content. It's sad they would ban a user with a legit claim... This reeks of manipulation by Valve.

akkalat85 wrote: To add more controversy, the post has been deleted by mods now... I still have the picture saved though.

Ban users with legit claims backed by evidence and then delete all threads exposing it. Why Valve why?

Jsmorris14 wrote: I have a feeling valve will try to clean up any negative comments as fast as they come.
I have a week long ban for saying don't support them in monetizing mods lol

akkalat85 wrote: Someone had a thread with pictures of all the users banned for speaking up in threads. I could almost laugh, but this is serious. Censoring negative views. Freedom of speech? Only if your thread is positive and your speech skill > 99

Thank god the Nexus allows us to speak freely about this issue without fear of being banned for simply saying "this sucks".

WightMage wrote: Thanks for letting me know that they deleted the thread- I still have the page up and haven't refreshed/moved it yet. Print screening everything naow.

Oh and by the way, I loved your "Insignificant Object Remover" mod! Would you be interested in creating another one?

akkalat85 wrote: Thanks Wight! No, I'm more interested in creating other things. I've got a c# app that's due for Fallout 4. It will be free and has taken a lot of hours to code. I'll never charge, even if it's a big app like what I'm talking about. I don't even have a donate button. I believe in giving back to a community that has been a special part of my gaming life since Morrowind. It's the circle of life :)

I just updated the object remover mod today though (removing thickets because...). It will continue getting small updates removing anything I find that's worthless while I play.

Coolio, stay classy mate. :3

[Nichoice]

In response to post #24579484. #24579559, #24579659, #24579729, #24579749, #24579769, #24579849, #24579884, #24579969, #24580074, #24580224, #24580304, #24580369, #24580559 are all replies on the same post.

Nichoice wrote:

akkalat85 wrote: wow...

Nichoice wrote: => http://i.imgur.com/DItmsFn.jpg

OP has since been banned from Steam, and this was 6mins ago

Brasscatcher wrote: Holy s#*!. This is getting entirely out of hand. and it's freakin' DAY ONE!

I don't know whether I should grab popcorn and settle in to watch the fireworks(I suffer from acute schadenfreude), or go cry in the corner.

akkalat85 wrote: I wonder why Linear was banned though? The claim seems legit as fore openly said chesko didn't ask permission... something strange going on.

Jsmorris14 wrote: Just proof that this is what it will be like if this continues. I saved the picture

ValtielCurse wrote: Wow indeed. Fore my man!

akkalat85 wrote: It seems, at least on the surface, that Valve doesn't want the negative press from being caught letting users upload and profit off of other's free content. It's sad they would ban a user with a legit claim... This reeks of manipulation by Valve.

akkalat85 wrote: To add more controversy, the post has been deleted by mods now... I still have the picture saved though.

Ban users with legit claims backed by evidence and then delete all threads exposing it. Why Valve why?

Jsmorris14 wrote: I have a feeling valve will try to clean up any negative comments as fast as they come.
I have a week long ban for saying don't support them in monetizing mods lol

akkalat85 wrote: Someone had a thread with pictures of all the users banned for speaking up in threads. I could almost laugh, but this is serious. Censoring negative views. Freedom of speech? Only if your thread is positive and your speech skill > 99

Thank god the Nexus allows us to speak freely about this issue without fear of being banned for simply saying "this sucks".

WightMage wrote: Thanks for letting me know that they deleted the thread- I still have the page up and haven't refreshed/moved it yet. Print screening everything naow.

Oh and by the way, I loved your "Insignificant Object Remover" mod! Would you be interested in creating another one?

akkalat85 wrote: Thanks Wight! No, I'm more interested in creating other things. I've got a c# app that's due for Fallout 4. It will be free and has taken a lot of hours to code. I'll never charge, even if it's a big app like what I'm talking about. I don't even have a donate button. I believe in giving back to a community that has been a special part of my gaming life since Morrowind. It's the circle of life :)

I just updated the object remover mod today though (removing thickets because...). It will continue getting small updates removing anything I find that's worthless while I play.

WightMage wrote: Coolio, stay classy mate. :3

I have sent the following message to Chesko:

"Hi Chesko,

In light of the recent events, I wanted to send you a message.

Please note that this is not a hate mail, nor am I flaming you for your recent actions.

I truely appreciate your efforts in your Mods as Arissa have brought me hours of joy in-game.

I wanted you to know that right now I believe you are in a position to make a statement of the recent events.

I am of the firm believe that modders should be given proper appreciation of their work, however I do not agree with the model that Valve has introduced.

You can find my full post here if you wish => http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12449/?page=1&sort=DESC&pid=0&thread_id=2793304&pUp=1

I believe that if Valve is to take a 75% profit form you then they should have an active responsibility in verifying, authenticating and to provide technical support for the mods.

Modders in general do not have a responsibility to update or provide support for their mods as they are distributed to the world at large as is because there is no vendor and consumer relationship created. Contrary to donations which are in part largely voluntary, do not create such a relationship.

However once money is involved, there is now a very real vendor and consumer relationship. This inherently imposes responsibilities on all parties, such as using the mod for its intended purpose, ensuring the mod is in working order etc. Analogous to purchasing a product from a store.

Nevertheless, on behalf of the community I am requesting that you sign this petition => https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop

And make a post telling the community at large that you have done so.

Please forward this to any other prominent modders of whom you know have taken up the offer from Valve.

Again I would like to make it clear I am not judging anyone for their actions of late, I only want whats fair and reasonable for all parties.

If any modders are unsatisfied with the appreciation in which they are receiving, marthgun in his post suggested that advertisements be introduced in downloading similar to Youtube which will allow all modders to have monetary gains for their work and effort and also not create any form of consumer vendor relationship.

I trust you can see the injustice in this and will do the right thing."

I trust anyone who reads this post and my OP above will appreciate what has happened and understand that this model introduced by Valve is not only unjust but entirely unilateral in that they take no responsibility for the mod itself yet have gained a 75% profit from the work and effort of modders.

Please do the right thing, sign the petition and lets all keep our fingers crossed!

[Smith099]

In response to post #24578554. #24578854, #24579349, #24579589, #24579674, #24579854, #24579929, #24580014, #24580089, #24580159, #24580169, #24580349, #24580769 are all replies on the same post.

Lillysdad2009 wrote:

WightMage wrote: Here here!

Lillysdad2009 wrote: I know if I had the money to donate I absolutely would. But for me personally at this point. Gaming isn't my first priority, I have a family to think of as many of the mod authors do. This is not exactly a hobby ya know this stuff takes real time. In today's world time is money, bruthas (and SISTAS) gotta eat. People keep mentioning Skywind and Beyond Skyrim I would honestly be disapointed if they finish...... Which I am starting to have my doubts about btw, but that's another forum all together. I would be extremely disappointed if they didn't get the monetary funds to compensate them for all the work that that is going to take to finish. Donations are just not a sure thing.

Nichoice wrote: => https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704730313333429/

When I posted this 6 mins ago OP wasn't banned, and now he is.

I have no problem with modders getting paid for their work, because they should be! But being paid comes with responsibilities which no body seems to want to uphold.

AineoftheSidhe wrote: Mods should be donationware. Corporations can't send DMCA's and/or Cease and Desist letters to someone who happens to make mods and who also happens to accept charity from "benevolent onlookers." (:D)

I don't have much money. And I feel that having mods behind a paywall will encourage piracy. Which is ironic because:

"We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem," - Gabe Newell 2011

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114391-Valves-Gabe-Newell-Says-Piracy-Is-a-Service-Problem

And this is just the start of the problem.

Did Valve/Bethesda even think about the implications or issues? If they have then I don't know what to think about them anymore?

But I think they didn't.

WightMage wrote: Maybe they just dun goofed?

Or maybe they just rushed this out the door without proper preparation. Maybe we'll find out in the coming days.

zanity wrote: The user input that helped him add features or find bugs is also INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. He has NOT paid for these services, even though the Law requires that he does so, or informs people BEFORE they offer their input that he may exploit it for commercial gain without offering payment.

Here's how it works in the grown-up world of legally correct software houses. The people who find bugs are PAID employees. The people who make design effecting suggestions are PAIN employees. If the software house runs a forum where user input may be used to improve the product, the software house if legally obliged to state this in the terms and conditions of the forum.

Almost every significant mod on Nexus that has had more than one version has benefited from the unpaid input of those who used it and commented- and this was NOT a legal problem when future versions of the mod were to be offered for free.

I am NOT stating an opinion- I am stating a fact of LAW.

If Chesko wanted to make money from his modding, he should have created brand-new, clean-room mods that were 100% of his invention, or ownership if he started paying others for their assistance.

Too many here think that modders are somehow beyond the law, or operate in a universe where the law doesn't apply to them, simply because of the tradition of modding. Well guess what, people- when you chose to go 'commercial' , the rules change whether you like that or not.

And as with most things in life- the more complex and 'interesting' the mod, the more difficult the legal problems become.

Lillysdad2009 wrote: What really bothers me the most is that I feel like Steam and also Bethesda are doing this under the false pretense that they are helping the modding community. But what they are really doing is being greedy bastards. I mean that's the only thing I can think to say about it. I mean look at the people that are hating on Chesko right now. When all he is doing is taking advantage of an opportunity that he was offered. He didn't come up with the idea. I don't see this doing any thing for the modding community or Bethesda in the long run. It is really just tearing apart both parties. When all you can see are dollar signs as a corporation, you might as well close up shop. I guess it depends on what one considers "Success"

Lillysdad2009 wrote: I won't lie and pretend like I understood all of that. But I do agree that is another really strong point. When they go and offer their downloads on steam they work for them, there will be contracts even if only electronically there will be agreements that are going to have to be made. Therefore a lot of the "Freedom" that an uploader has here. That won't carry over to this new arrangement being offered by the workshop.

Lillysdad2009 wrote: It likely was a mistake, I have seen a few people mention that they are probably just testing the waters on a game that isn't "New" but is also still relevant to see what parts of it they could implement in the future with other releases. I really think that sounds spot on.

WightMage wrote: How much longer before the lawsuits start flinging and mod authors start issuing C&D's? Some authors have already gone into hibernation, started changing their handles, and in the case of Chesko have even had a mod taken down because Fore reported it for using his assets.

Lillysdad2009 wrote: It is all just really over reaching on the parts of Steam and Bethesda, you would think they would know enough about mods and the system to know that really all modders share the same resources. There will continue to be and exponential rise in those cases. Some false claims and also some very real very fair cases. Because even "Original" things come from somewhere. Even if the uploaders are making original content they have to use someones tool to make them with. Then the people responsible for the tools will have claims on them also etc.. etc... It just seems like a never ending loop of a really bad idea to me. Because the most important part of a copyright infringement policy is the part that states "Used for profit." Because they might let slip usage, but once they see the money coming in from their product they are going to want some. IE the mess that youtube has going on right now, the corporations didn't care about usage of songs and clips until they saw how much money these people were bringing in and they saw an easy way to get a cut.

Lillysdad2009 wrote: Absolutely 25% pay for 95% of the work. I mean not only are they doing the users unfairly but the authors as well. It is good to hear an experienced mod authors view on this as well. I hope that others will read that post and let it sink in what is really going on. I actually only recently saw this, so I am already stunned to hear that this is happening. But to hear Cheskos thoughts on the idea that he can go ahead and get paid for his mod then not have the concern of caring whether or not the people that paid for it actually enjoy it. That is just really disheartening for me. I hope others don't follow that same mentality. Kudos Smith!

Lilly,

As a professional programmer I am insulted by the low opinion that BethSoft and Valve seem to have of the various modding communities. (Let's not kid ourselves, Nexus isn't the only modding site.) Yes, BethSoft has provided many assets within Skyrim, but for many modders who go out of their way and put in the amount of time and effort required to create totally new assets...I am sorry but 25% is insulting.

One of the things that, as Dark0ne alludes to in his previous post, is a potential problem is the use of these modder created assets. Chinese users (and others, not picking on anyone specific here) have for many years outright stolen mods and started selling them on their own websites with no attempt made to attribute the mods to their authors. This happened earlier this year with SkyUI. What is to stop someone from taking a bunch of mods here on the Nexus and uploading them to Steam and selling them there? Yes, Steam might pull the plug on the mods and ban that user if the author(s) complain to them about the theft, but they won't be giving the actual author the money, or refunding it to the people who paid for the mods.

Regarding Chesko, yes he is very polite and very talented and I have and continue to wish him nothing but success. His comment on Steam about how now that the mod there require payment before the download does not entitle people to make demands is rather silly, save for regarding updates or new features, in my opinion. He, and the other authors, have now put, as Dark0ne described it, a "pay wall" between their mods and the community. That makes them a business as far as I am concerned. They need to prove, both with quality of content and quality of support, that they deserve to be paid. And if their customers find that quality lacking, it does entitle the customer to demand either restitution for what they see as poor service or an improvement of the service.

Having been a modder for Oblivion and Morrowind, I had several mods that were never fleshed out or finished for various reasons. How will Valve react to mods like this? What kind of system, if any, will they put in place to keep people from uploading "Imperial Guard Armor Playable" style mods? (For those that don't know what that means, it is about the simplest possible mod you can make for Oblivion and there was a point where at least one of those was popping up in the Oblivion Latest Files page per day.) Furthermore, what are BethSoft and Valve going to do when people start buying the pay mods and then posting them on other sites for free?

And to direct this back to the Nexus and to Dark0ne, what are YOU going to do when people start trying it here? Because it will happen eventually.
Edited April 24, 2015 by Smith099

[Jerros]

In response to post #24580299. #24580459, #24580464 are all replies on the same post.

spydar59 wrote:

marthgun wrote: If a mod author chooses to do this, they are ruining their rep. They brought that upon themselves. I'm more worried about what steam / beth decide to do with those rights. What about mods that change similar things hosted on the nexus, will those mods violate their copywrite ownership?

Nexus won't be able to fight that, they'll be deleting things left and right, there will be riots.

popcorn71 wrote: Thats part of releasing a mod. You do it knowing full well that Beth can lay claim to your work but you do it anyway to make your gaming experience better.
Its something else entirely when some other modder comes along and steals your work then turns around and sells it.

I'm a mod author and I refuse to participate in this. This was not why I started modding but looks like a good time to retire from it. Sad day indeed.