Quick updates to the site, money money money edition

[Aahzmandias]

Paid mods are no longer mods.

 

Paid mods aren't any longer "Mods". They are operating on another legal base than free mods. Steam tries to suggest, they are like mods, but you have to honor the authors, by paying them, but that is simple not true.

 

Paid mods are "3rd party DLC"

 

Differences between Mods and "3rd party DLC"

 

 

 

 

"3 Party DLC"

--------------------

 

- Cost money. No donations allowed.

 

- They are not working in a gray area any longer. Because the game owner takes 45% of the income. The 3rd party DLC is legal.

 

- The 3rd party DLC has to work legal correct.

-- This means, the author has to honor all customer protection laws of different countries.

-- He has to honor all copyrights corrctly. Even the ones of mod authors! Very important point.

-- He is responsible for patches.

-- He has to work under industrial standard rules, so that someone else can easy take over his project. -> documentation. This is in his own interest, too.

-- has to take full responsibility for incompabilities with other mods/3rd party DLC. This means even a refund, if the problem does not get solved within a numner of time. In europe 3 tries and 2 weeks time max.

-- has to take responsibility for update his 3rd party DLC after a game patch.

 

- Because he has this responsibilities, he needs to be in contact with the developers, if some bugs prevents the function of his mod. Here has valve to act for his 30 % take. If they do not do this, it's refund time ...

 

- is forced to maintain the 3rd party DLC for the lifetime of the main program. Can be 10 years, depending on country. So documentation is in his own interest, if the author wants to quit.

 

- will be distributed through the steam workshop. 3rd Party DLC author has no longer the rights to remove the content. Or alter the terms of the digital contract he signed his soul to.

 

- will be removed from other sites. This would be only logical consequence. We are only at the beginning of the process Valve tries to install, so wait.

 

- All other free Mod authors are competitors.

-- Think about it, if someone invents the same module, you try to make money with. Because he can, and the 3rd party DLC is no longer a free mod.

-- Even the mod authors, from whom he taken the work, can decide not to give you as 3rd party DLC owner the newest patch of his work, because he uses it in another Mod, or even a competitors 3rd party DLC.

 

- They can usually not use the content of other 3rd party DLC authors.

 

- There will be DRM in the future.

 

- The source code will be hidden and encrypted.

 

 

"Mods"

----------

 

- are free of charge, donations possible.

 

- are in a legal gray are.

 

- take no responsibility for functionality, bugfixing and incompabilities with patches and other mods.

 

- use of mods is always on your own risk.

 

- Author can quit anytime.

 

- all other mod authors can work together, not fearing their work will be exploited by other authors.

 

- "3rd party DLC" will exploit their work. It already happened, with the the acceptance of Valve, saying that all mods on the nexus are "free for the taking". That is NOT true.

 

- They can usually not use the work of 3rd party DLC for mods.

 

 

I hope that will help you to understand the difference between Modding and making 3rd party DLC.

[Impulseman45]

In response to post #24626904.

Nightasy wrote:

Dude, I do not know what to say, but boy do you feel entitled or what. You would not even be the modder you are if were not for all the people that downloaded your mods. You can make all the mods you want, but if they do not get downloaded they are nothing. The people that downloaded your mods are the ones that supported you in your ventures and encouraged you forward. So you couldn't make money on the mods in the past. Well those were the rules that were set down by Bethesda not us. Giving us all attitude over the fact is not going to win you points. Don't get me wrong, I feel that modders that put tons of time and effort into mod making do deserve to get something. It wasn't an option in the past and it is now. But it is just not the time to be jumping the gun. If i were you I would and see how this all shakes out. It could very well blow up in Bethesda's face big time. The whole pay scale is a total ripoff and you are not gong to earn anything really. Wait and see if they restructure the scale of things. The other things to remember that once you go behind that pay-wall all your mods are theirs and you have to all the support work for it for a mere 25% cut.They are not going to let you pull your mods out. Talk to Chesko about it. Is it really worth risking everything just so you feel that you are finally getting what you feel you are due.

[carlocgc]

In response to post #24615349. #24615514, #24615539, #24615594, #24615744, #24615844, #24616559, #24616664, #24616684, #24616839, #24616949, #24617094, #24617659, #24617939, #24617944, #24618744, #24623334, #24624164, #24624429, #24625279, #24626674, #24627199, #24627214, #24628219, #24628379, #24629339, #24629674 are all replies on the same post.

Axeface wrote:

Ventry wrote: Your in the minority.
You do realize this right?

CaptainGame wrote: Not the idea of people asking for money for pay that bugs me - I can easily ignore the "dollar for new sword" nonsense, and there will always be people willing to mod for love of the game... but from what I hear, A. The money split is 30% to Valve, 45% to Bethesda, and 25% to the modder, B. Modder doesn't get a thing until they make $100 (AFTER the pay split) and C. Pay is exclusively in Steam wallet credit.

This is blatantly and obviously an attempt to lure people into making DLC on the cheap.

thestoryteller01 wrote: Most people on Steam are calling Valve greedy for giving the modders only 25%, only a few spoiled brats are actually blaming the modders for anything.

But of course many say that if every contacted modder had flatly refused to participate in the trial run, we wouldn't have this mess.

dechurch wrote: "We will see more quality, better support, and better updates from modders."

You keep telling yourself that.

"very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

Certainly not any modders.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

While I agree with what you are saying, is it not the above that is part of the problem. As a lot of people will be doing a lot of work but not sharing in most of the financial benefits, the benefits that keep a roof over our heads. The point being that it is not only modding that things like this are happening.

Full respect to you, I am just trying to bring up a point because I think this discussion really matters if we (as the consumer/content provider) are going to help Valve avoid exploiting its customers.

Axeface wrote: @Ventry. That doesn't mean I am wrong. Some would argue that it actually means I am right, because I am able to think clearly, and for myself - not just follow the screaming and shouting crowd.

Jupezus wrote: I'm just annoyed by this, Valve is advertising this as " Support the modders",
while they take 75% of the cut. That's just plain disgusting.

Ramon1 wrote: Here, aim all those passive aggressive insults towards Chesko that just now realized what's it like to deal with megacorporations like Valve or Bethesda:

I thought discussion was moderated in this place??? Doesn't matter, too few people are remotely attempting at defending this and failing hard at it.

chinkaninka wrote: It's probably Valve's way of trying to get more people to use the steam workshop... But who would actually be stupid enough to spend money on a MOD. Who's actually looked at the paid mods page? Totally not worth it. I've made a couple of crappy mods myself, and they are NOT worth paying for... The "mods" I made are the kind of thing painted all over the steam workshop. I would just download something else, preferably something worth downloading, for FREE. Oh, and to the people who agree with this, are you trolling or did you just make your claim without sufficient evidence to back it up?

Axeface wrote: @Jepezus. Totally agree, I said that at the end of my post. 75% to the corps is wrong, but this applies to basically ANYTHING creative in the world.... the creator getting screwed by the publisher. While I understand that beth made the game, and steam is selling it. The modders are being treated like the 'middle man', as if their content has little value and they are simply adding value to the main product, when they are actually content creators. They need to have a bigger cut. 50% would be acceptable. But, corporations are evil and will try to bleed everyone dry (fact).

Aquilathestne wrote: Instead of forcing eveyrone from some guy with kids to feed and a 13 yearold without a job, perhaps this should simply be a wake up call to show more respect to our mod authors and donate? the donation system would be more effective if we all considered: would i rather be forced to pay a small amount, or give a big donation to mod authors i love? phendrix says he only has had 1 donation. lets flood our favorite authors with donations on nexus. Heck, even the ones who went to steam but still have mods here. show the appreciation for free content.

t1amat wrote: http://www.pcgamer.com/fake-protest-mods-hit-the-steam-workshop/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

Maruun wrote: I am more worried about the general direction.

Every modder that puts his "mod" as a buyable product isnt a modder anymore.
He is a User Generated Content creator, with a pretty bad pay.

Modding was always a community effort, creating, sharing, learning. Now money is involved. This changes everything.

Didnt we had quality mods before? Sure and we had alot of "bad" mods unfinished ect.
But that will NOT change with this paid mod thing....if at all it will get worse.

I cant argue agains modder trying to take some kind of compensation for their hard work, but a paywall?

The next thing leaving the modders aside, i hope it will only be "doom and gloom" but we know how the DLC dilemma started, is there a market they get away with it, and we know what consequences we got from that.

Now they start offering modders to be paid slaves for Beth right now its optionall, but that was of course only logical it would be to hard to DRM mods backwards. Fallout 4 is about to be announced, and its not a coincidence that this shitstorm was started before Fallout 4 was announced.

Do you really think when Beth starts monetising the work of OTHERS they will tolerate any competition? I fear we will see that Beth says again how they will "Support" modding behind a paywall were most of the profit goes to Beth after they released a buggy/shitty console port for a game that will AGAIN depend on modders to get fixed, the best part they dont even pay a single $ for the fixxed noooo even better THEY get paid and DONT even have to work for it, because "modder" no excuse UGC-Programers will push out small "mods" in order to fix a broken game in hope to get some payment...

I stop here...i just get angry when i think about it...

MrRedshark wrote: You're right. Very few people are going to get rich.

But a whole lot more people are going to get poorer.

Vault Tec wrote: Instead of insulting people, you should have spent the time reading into what is going on because from what I've just read, you're not all that clued up.

Many are angry because a lot of modders have just up stick and left the Nexus etc behind, most have also recently promised an updated version to be uploaded here and it appears on the Workshop instead, with the previously supported version being dropped without a word (Wet & Cold). There's also an issue with asset developers not being paid. A great example is the fishing mod which used Fore's idle animations. Fore was not contacted as the author was under an NDA up till yesterday and as such, was not getting paid or had even been asked if it was ok to ask for payment using his assets (there is a PCGamer article on it with screencaps of Fore saying that he was not asked). That mod has since been removed, and refunds being given out to anyone who bought it as Fore mods as a hobby, not for payment.

The "75% rumour" isn't actually a rumour _at all_.

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/about/?appid=72850

"The percentage of revenue an item creator receives from direct sales of their item in this Workshop is 25%, as stipulated in the Supplemental Workshop Terms.."

On top of this, modders will have to meet milestones before being paid.

You mention "More quality mods", actually this has had the *opposite* effect. Now that there's an incentive for making free money, scumbags are stealing mods from the Nexus and uploading them as their own (as mentioned in the above article). It's now a matter of "Is this a mod or a cash grab?". The same story keeps happening with Greenlight, with a large chunk of recently submitted 'games' being blatant rip offs (the recent Hotline Miami clone which somehow got into the store) or are extremely obvious cash grabs with the authors having no intention to support it any further once it's in the store.

Many have used that tired and over-trodden reason "You don't have to buy it" blah blah but as a matter of fact, I may not have to buy it but I sure as hell have to navigate such cash grabs to find any potential mods I would want to buy (this is an example. I refuse to line Bethesda and VALVe's pockets off the back of someone else) which will affect legit mod authors as I will not navigate hundreds of pages of mods if page after page is 75% filled with cash grabs with no guarantee of prolonged support. While we're on the subject, since the workshop is now "unregulated", after the 24 hours guaranteed refund period is up, and I quote here, in order to get a refund I must "Politely ask the mod developer". Right so Mr. Russian who has created a cash grab (which was not obvious at first) and has broken it/been broken by another mod is guaranteed to give me my money back? Pull the other one!

Among other issues, a customer can 'buy' a mod, copy the files out of the Data folder onto another drive or another folder and request a refund. The author is now out of pocket, VALVe/Bethesda are keeping the cash and you've got a free mod with your money back. This was proved when a member of the PCMasterRace subreddit tested this and reported back that it worked. Immoral? Yes, but VALVe/Bethesda taking 75% of the takings is leagues ahead regarding being immoral versus a person copying files for 'mod piracy'.

Yes, mod developers should be given the option to be paid but most definitely not like this. The Nexus method, I feel, will be much more successful. There have been many mods I've downloaded which I've felt were very high quality and have actually donated accordingly (over £5) but a lot of pages don't have a donate option (which this update will fix) so even if I wanted to donate, it's pretty damn hard in some cases. In VALVe's case, I must buy the mod before I can even try it and think of it as being worth while which I disapprove of since a donation/payment should be earned, not given 'just because'.

Joeblivion wrote: @Axeface I have not been on the steam forums to witness, for myself, the extent of the response of the community to the actions of Valve/Beth and while I do not endorse over the top, negative responses, (ie. death threats, etc.) I can say that we cannot discredit the community's response because of the negative feedback.

We are voicing our displeasure at this move by Valve and Beth. The majority of the community supports the FREE distribution of modded content and those modders who decide that they would like to take the 'Valve' approach and try to monetize that content are telling the community of users that they value the dollar over the enjoyment of expressing creativity, dedication and skillful prowess in regards to their modded content.

Your position confuses me because in your first post, you support Valve's decision, claiming it will promote higher quality mods (which is debatable).

Yet later in your responses you go on to claim that corporations are 'evil' and ALWAYS try to suck everyone dry.

Despite this, you still support an 'evil' corporation, that is setting up an easy cash grab, that undermines the creativity of modders, short changes them for their efforts, moves us one step closer to eliminating free modding altogether, perpetuates pirating (now for mods, of all things) and is trying to remove our free exchange of content.

Monetizing modded content will not create better content. People will find ways to maximize the amount of money they make, while putting in the least amount of effort.
Don't believe me? Just follow what Beth and Valve are doing.

Beth makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to pay for a game that they developed 4 years ago and no longer support.

Valve makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to upkeep the workshop and overseeing every transaction/download.

The people actually doing any work get paid only 25% of profits made per download.

This is what happens when you put the importance of the dollar bill above the importance of creativity, community sharing, desire for prestige and passion for supporting something you love.

WightMage wrote: I'm sorry, but the movie, art, publishing, music, and even porn industry disagree with you. A monetary incentive has not, and will NOT guarantee an improvement in quality of products, because frankly, it isn't profitable. Industries are more likely to find something that is relatively stable, appeals to a wide demographic of customers, and isn't too avant garde or too boring, and milk it until they move onto the next big thing.

As an example, take the Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed franchises- these games have not innovated anything in the past few years of their development, and while CoD has become a joke meme to refer to flashy but ultumately substance less entertainment (not unlike Michael Bay's films), the last Assassin's Creed, Unity, was absolutely REAMED by both the press and customers alike for being a clunky, horribly glitched, unfinished piece of crap that was rushed out with next to know beta testing and relied on hype and diehard fans for its sales- which is exactly how it recouped costs. And Ubisoft has absolutely no incentive to make the next game any better, because they don't want to waste money on the chance their mext IP may fail.

Why do so many great and innovative mods get created? Because their authors have no financial incentive- the only incentive they have is their own personal interest to see something realized, made by themselves, for themselves. And by sharing it with other people, fellow modders either ignore it if they think its a bust, or contribute to it, FOR FREE, if they think it has potential, or think it just needs a little push in the right direction. Their incentive? Personal reasons- arguably even selfish ones, but constructive ones nonetheless.

You want to know what will REALLY happen with the paid skyrim mods page? Fancy hats. Porn skin texture mods. New weapon models which don't actually so anything except look cool. Copy and pasted mods from foreign countries that have been conveniently altered just enough that they pass as "not copywrite infringing," or otherwise stolen from unknown or smalltime modders who cannot mount a defense of their work.

Spending egregious amounts of time making massive projects would not only be unlikely, but unprofitable. In the amount of time a single mod author would spend to create such a mod and price it accordingly, they can, and would, be doing something else that makes them far more money in a shorter span of time for less risk. Like the above mentioned shovelware. That is not even considering that even if they formed into groups, dividing the profits up evenly would be a nightmare that would likely destroy inexperienced teams (and lets be honest here, most modders are amateur game developers at best, not people with at least five years experience in the field and experience working on deadlines with other strangers), which is to say, most of them. Look at kickstarter projects for games that have failed, and look at kickstarter projects for games that have succeeded the kickstarter, but failed afterward (Dysfunctional Systems). For most people in it for the money, it is simply not worth the time, or in their best interest, to make anything with a quality level beyond mediocre.

In conclusion, I am actually not against modders receiving compensation of some kind. But what people seem to forget is that they are not Sid Meier, Molyneux, or Gaben- you are not a professional, and if you were, you wouldn't be wringing your hands trying to make a living off of modding games, you would be freelancing, getting contracts, working on some indie title or already in the field. You aren't J.K.Rowling or Stephanie Meyer or Stieg Larsson- you are some kid who wrote a book in looseleaf with a number 2 pencil and think you are entitled to being paid via a vanity publishing company (look up why that's a bad thing). You aren't Christopher Nolan- you are a kid with an expensive camera that made a decent 15 minute demo reel and show some compentence with After Effects, trying to get a Hollywood commission.

You are a person who spends their free time making modifications for a game you already paid for, using tools you are under license to use, not own, using content that is NOT yours, and using other people's content that they have graciously let you have for free. So while you should certainly have some compensation of some kind, remember that ultimately you aren't anywhere near as entitled to things as you believe you are.

Signed, a struggling business owner in a different entertainment field with a similar problem.

digitaltrucker wrote: Funny how few mod authors thought they were 'entitled to compensation' before this paid model came along...seem to be more of them now.

WightMage wrote: No s#*!? That's greed for you, true greed, and not the kind of greed that actually improves things.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: Excuse me sir, and I mean this as respectfully as I can, but you could not be more utterly wrong.

Yes, this is not the end of the world or the end of free modding. But on any other point you made you are so completely wrong that you are likely from a parallel universe where Comcast cares for its customers, EA makes games that intelligent, well-adjusted individuals enjoy, and Islamic State is a humanist, welfare organization that promotes women's rights and protects Christians from persecution.

These are VIDEO GAMES. ENTERTAINMENT. An escape from the daily stress of the world. Mods are open source creative artistic endeavors meant to expand the replayability of that entertainment media.

To endlessly monetize every aspect of video games, to take art and put it behind paywalls, is the antithesis of what video gaming is about.

We have watched video game budgets balloon to support superficial graphical improvements with nearly no improvements to actual gameplay innovation, release content carved from games in development to become paid DLC that subtracts from the value of the game but increases the price, AAA and Indie products released not only in unplayable forms upon official release dates but be complete deceptions of their gameplay demonstration videos, microtransactions that sell away challenge into oblivion....

And now we are to be nickel and dime'd for free, open source creative art that we have enjoyed for years so that content creators can sell stolen collaborative work from our community for a messily 25% cut of the earnings so maybe, just maybe they can pay rent while Bethesda and Valve trample on the communities that built them up to oppose the greedy profiteers like EA, Ubisoft, and Activision?

If the Dark0ne considers this to be abuse in anyway, then he is entitled to permaban me. I will not resent it (much). But while I abhor genuine abuse myself, I also abhor the notion that people would support the absolute, unconditional monetization, copyright, and commodification of joy and imagination. And while I will do my best, in my current state of passionate outrage (my 498 hours of Skyrim is not the most but I am a mod enthusiast at heart and a former beta tester of The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod that brought a game back from unplayability to near-completion), to remain civil, I do not begrudge those who resort to crude, language to lament and protest this most unholy disrespect to the divine spirit of PC video gaming.

I wish you well. Good day. Etc.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: I salute this post.

pigtailsboy wrote: I would say it's a problem for modding when big mods start going to paid DLC like Wet and Cold, like Midas Magic, like iNeed. True those are big mods with authors who feel deserving enough to be compensated for their effort but they're also popular and important to the culture of modding.

I can almost feel my self shying entirely away from the idea of paid functional content. And when something like Wet and Cold has integration with mods that are not purchasable content but from a community standpoint are nearly inseparable I have to side against it.

Another thing is purchasable mods are going to cut off some people from that content. Whatever you think you're wrong. And not because a lot of us have now decided without even discussing it to boycott this content but because some of us can't afford or justify to afford even the cheapest of DLC. There in lies another problem.

Lastly we're not all of the opinion that the mod authors are greedy. That slander is directly pointed at Valve and Bethesda. And it's their entitlement to a larger portion (if suggestions are true) that will drive a higher minimum price tag on the available mods because those mod authors seek to reach that price ceiling so they can break out and start actually earning from their work.

Erinaea wrote: "
It isn't the end of the world. It isnt the end of free modding. And, it is an inevitable change. There is nothing wrong with people being able to charge for their time and talent, mods that are terrible and not worthy will not be purchased. Mods that are, will.

I for one think setting the framework for allowing people to charge for mods is a good thing overall. We will see more quality, better support, and better updates from modders. It is a natural progression and I for one am all for it."

How about this: make an option on Steam profiles for users to tick. If they want to pay for mods, they tick that option. If not, then they can download for free. You want to pay for mods? You have at it. Better yet, just donate to mod authors who have impressed you with their work..like you mentioned at the bottom of your post.

I won't even get in to the fallacious reasoning with your implicit assumptions about mods getting better and such.

People with your opinion are akin to those who are on a sinking ship and decide to grab whoever's closest and drag that person to the depths with them.

danjal wrote: The long and short is, Valve's deal isn't very beneficial for the mod authors.
Even if you ignore the 25% / 75% financial distribution.
Valve provides little to no support to the table.

They expect a mod author to work at the level of a professional game developer and be fully informed already.
They also expect the mod author to solve all issues.
Valve takes a complete hands-off approach and won't even remove a mod if the author requests it "Unless legally forced to."

Lets face it. Would you pay for a mod if you did not have the guarantee that it work work?
Knowing full well that the refund policy isn't the ideal solution and that Valve reserves the right to retract your access to it at any given time should they 'suspect foul play'?

Valve / Steam Workshop also lacks most tools that the average mod user will need once the game gets modded beyond a certain point.
Again, Valve has shown little to no inclination to invest here.
Otherwise they would've gone ahead and provided such support beforehand.

Brasscatcher wrote: "You are a person who spends their free time making modifications for a game you already paid for, using tools you are under license to use, not own, using content that is NOT yours, and using other people's content that they have graciously let you have for free. So while you should certainly have some compensation of some kind, remember that ultimately you aren't anywhere near as entitled to things as you believe you are.

Signed, a struggling business owner in a different entertainment field with a similar problem."

Wight. Just...just DAMN. This whole post is 5-star material. That is one of the strongest closings I've ever had the pleasure of reading. I'm screen-capping this sucker for later dissection. Cheers!

Milleuros wrote: """Funny how few mod authors thought they were 'entitled to compensation' before this paid model came along...seem to be more of them now. """

Indeed.


That's what you get when money get into the equation.

Just for some politic analogy, not wanting to run an argument on that. What we had yesterday was anarchy. No rules at all. Yet people had ethics, modding was fair, the community was supportive.
What we'll have tomorrow is capitalism. You just add money to it, and bam you forget about ethics and fairness.

Realizing this analogy, I find the reaction of the community extremely funny.

Its a massively divisive issue, dividing the modding community and the free spirit of modding will be lost. People will not share their work if its worth money. Just look at the DLC market! do you want to see this happen to modding too?

[Deleted1259044User]

In response to post #24615349. #24615514, #24615539, #24615594, #24615744, #24615844, #24616559, #24616664, #24616684, #24616839, #24616949, #24617094, #24617659, #24617939, #24617944, #24618744, #24623334, #24624164, #24624429, #24625279, #24626674, #24627199, #24627214, #24628219, #24628379, #24629339, #24629674, #24629809 are all replies on the same post.

Axeface wrote:

Ventry wrote: Your in the minority.
You do realize this right?

CaptainGame wrote: Not the idea of people asking for money for pay that bugs me - I can easily ignore the "dollar for new sword" nonsense, and there will always be people willing to mod for love of the game... but from what I hear, A. The money split is 30% to Valve, 45% to Bethesda, and 25% to the modder, B. Modder doesn't get a thing until they make $100 (AFTER the pay split) and C. Pay is exclusively in Steam wallet credit.

This is blatantly and obviously an attempt to lure people into making DLC on the cheap.

thestoryteller01 wrote: Most people on Steam are calling Valve greedy for giving the modders only 25%, only a few spoiled brats are actually blaming the modders for anything.

But of course many say that if every contacted modder had flatly refused to participate in the trial run, we wouldn't have this mess.

dechurch wrote: "We will see more quality, better support, and better updates from modders."

You keep telling yourself that.

"very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

Certainly not any modders.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

While I agree with what you are saying, is it not the above that is part of the problem. As a lot of people will be doing a lot of work but not sharing in most of the financial benefits, the benefits that keep a roof over our heads. The point being that it is not only modding that things like this are happening.

Full respect to you, I am just trying to bring up a point because I think this discussion really matters if we (as the consumer/content provider) are going to help Valve avoid exploiting its customers.

Axeface wrote: @Ventry. That doesn't mean I am wrong. Some would argue that it actually means I am right, because I am able to think clearly, and for myself - not just follow the screaming and shouting crowd.

Jupezus wrote: I'm just annoyed by this, Valve is advertising this as " Support the modders",
while they take 75% of the cut. That's just plain disgusting.

Ramon1 wrote: Here, aim all those passive aggressive insults towards Chesko that just now realized what's it like to deal with megacorporations like Valve or Bethesda:

I thought discussion was moderated in this place??? Doesn't matter, too few people are remotely attempting at defending this and failing hard at it.

chinkaninka wrote: It's probably Valve's way of trying to get more people to use the steam workshop... But who would actually be stupid enough to spend money on a MOD. Who's actually looked at the paid mods page? Totally not worth it. I've made a couple of crappy mods myself, and they are NOT worth paying for... The "mods" I made are the kind of thing painted all over the steam workshop. I would just download something else, preferably something worth downloading, for FREE. Oh, and to the people who agree with this, are you trolling or did you just make your claim without sufficient evidence to back it up?

Axeface wrote: @Jepezus. Totally agree, I said that at the end of my post. 75% to the corps is wrong, but this applies to basically ANYTHING creative in the world.... the creator getting screwed by the publisher. While I understand that beth made the game, and steam is selling it. The modders are being treated like the 'middle man', as if their content has little value and they are simply adding value to the main product, when they are actually content creators. They need to have a bigger cut. 50% would be acceptable. But, corporations are evil and will try to bleed everyone dry (fact).

Aquilathestne wrote: Instead of forcing eveyrone from some guy with kids to feed and a 13 yearold without a job, perhaps this should simply be a wake up call to show more respect to our mod authors and donate? the donation system would be more effective if we all considered: would i rather be forced to pay a small amount, or give a big donation to mod authors i love? phendrix says he only has had 1 donation. lets flood our favorite authors with donations on nexus. Heck, even the ones who went to steam but still have mods here. show the appreciation for free content.

t1amat wrote: http://www.pcgamer.com/fake-protest-mods-hit-the-steam-workshop/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

Maruun wrote: I am more worried about the general direction.

Every modder that puts his "mod" as a buyable product isnt a modder anymore.
He is a User Generated Content creator, with a pretty bad pay.

Modding was always a community effort, creating, sharing, learning. Now money is involved. This changes everything.

Didnt we had quality mods before? Sure and we had alot of "bad" mods unfinished ect.
But that will NOT change with this paid mod thing....if at all it will get worse.

I cant argue agains modder trying to take some kind of compensation for their hard work, but a paywall?

The next thing leaving the modders aside, i hope it will only be "doom and gloom" but we know how the DLC dilemma started, is there a market they get away with it, and we know what consequences we got from that.

Now they start offering modders to be paid slaves for Beth right now its optionall, but that was of course only logical it would be to hard to DRM mods backwards. Fallout 4 is about to be announced, and its not a coincidence that this shitstorm was started before Fallout 4 was announced.

Do you really think when Beth starts monetising the work of OTHERS they will tolerate any competition? I fear we will see that Beth says again how they will "Support" modding behind a paywall were most of the profit goes to Beth after they released a buggy/shitty console port for a game that will AGAIN depend on modders to get fixed, the best part they dont even pay a single $ for the fixxed noooo even better THEY get paid and DONT even have to work for it, because "modder" no excuse UGC-Programers will push out small "mods" in order to fix a broken game in hope to get some payment...

I stop here...i just get angry when i think about it...

MrRedshark wrote: You're right. Very few people are going to get rich.

But a whole lot more people are going to get poorer.

Vault Tec wrote: Instead of insulting people, you should have spent the time reading into what is going on because from what I've just read, you're not all that clued up.

Many are angry because a lot of modders have just up stick and left the Nexus etc behind, most have also recently promised an updated version to be uploaded here and it appears on the Workshop instead, with the previously supported version being dropped without a word (Wet & Cold). There's also an issue with asset developers not being paid. A great example is the fishing mod which used Fore's idle animations. Fore was not contacted as the author was under an NDA up till yesterday and as such, was not getting paid or had even been asked if it was ok to ask for payment using his assets (there is a PCGamer article on it with screencaps of Fore saying that he was not asked). That mod has since been removed, and refunds being given out to anyone who bought it as Fore mods as a hobby, not for payment.

The "75% rumour" isn't actually a rumour _at all_.

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/about/?appid=72850

"The percentage of revenue an item creator receives from direct sales of their item in this Workshop is 25%, as stipulated in the Supplemental Workshop Terms.."

On top of this, modders will have to meet milestones before being paid.

You mention "More quality mods", actually this has had the *opposite* effect. Now that there's an incentive for making free money, scumbags are stealing mods from the Nexus and uploading them as their own (as mentioned in the above article). It's now a matter of "Is this a mod or a cash grab?". The same story keeps happening with Greenlight, with a large chunk of recently submitted 'games' being blatant rip offs (the recent Hotline Miami clone which somehow got into the store) or are extremely obvious cash grabs with the authors having no intention to support it any further once it's in the store.

Many have used that tired and over-trodden reason "You don't have to buy it" blah blah but as a matter of fact, I may not have to buy it but I sure as hell have to navigate such cash grabs to find any potential mods I would want to buy (this is an example. I refuse to line Bethesda and VALVe's pockets off the back of someone else) which will affect legit mod authors as I will not navigate hundreds of pages of mods if page after page is 75% filled with cash grabs with no guarantee of prolonged support. While we're on the subject, since the workshop is now "unregulated", after the 24 hours guaranteed refund period is up, and I quote here, in order to get a refund I must "Politely ask the mod developer". Right so Mr. Russian who has created a cash grab (which was not obvious at first) and has broken it/been broken by another mod is guaranteed to give me my money back? Pull the other one!

Among other issues, a customer can 'buy' a mod, copy the files out of the Data folder onto another drive or another folder and request a refund. The author is now out of pocket, VALVe/Bethesda are keeping the cash and you've got a free mod with your money back. This was proved when a member of the PCMasterRace subreddit tested this and reported back that it worked. Immoral? Yes, but VALVe/Bethesda taking 75% of the takings is leagues ahead regarding being immoral versus a person copying files for 'mod piracy'.

Yes, mod developers should be given the option to be paid but most definitely not like this. The Nexus method, I feel, will be much more successful. There have been many mods I've downloaded which I've felt were very high quality and have actually donated accordingly (over £5) but a lot of pages don't have a donate option (which this update will fix) so even if I wanted to donate, it's pretty damn hard in some cases. In VALVe's case, I must buy the mod before I can even try it and think of it as being worth while which I disapprove of since a donation/payment should be earned, not given 'just because'.

Joeblivion wrote: @Axeface I have not been on the steam forums to witness, for myself, the extent of the response of the community to the actions of Valve/Beth and while I do not endorse over the top, negative responses, (ie. death threats, etc.) I can say that we cannot discredit the community's response because of the negative feedback.

We are voicing our displeasure at this move by Valve and Beth. The majority of the community supports the FREE distribution of modded content and those modders who decide that they would like to take the 'Valve' approach and try to monetize that content are telling the community of users that they value the dollar over the enjoyment of expressing creativity, dedication and skillful prowess in regards to their modded content.

Your position confuses me because in your first post, you support Valve's decision, claiming it will promote higher quality mods (which is debatable).

Yet later in your responses you go on to claim that corporations are 'evil' and ALWAYS try to suck everyone dry.

Despite this, you still support an 'evil' corporation, that is setting up an easy cash grab, that undermines the creativity of modders, short changes them for their efforts, moves us one step closer to eliminating free modding altogether, perpetuates pirating (now for mods, of all things) and is trying to remove our free exchange of content.

Monetizing modded content will not create better content. People will find ways to maximize the amount of money they make, while putting in the least amount of effort.
Don't believe me? Just follow what Beth and Valve are doing.

Beth makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to pay for a game that they developed 4 years ago and no longer support.

Valve makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to upkeep the workshop and overseeing every transaction/download.

The people actually doing any work get paid only 25% of profits made per download.

This is what happens when you put the importance of the dollar bill above the importance of creativity, community sharing, desire for prestige and passion for supporting something you love.

WightMage wrote: I'm sorry, but the movie, art, publishing, music, and even porn industry disagree with you. A monetary incentive has not, and will NOT guarantee an improvement in quality of products, because frankly, it isn't profitable. Industries are more likely to find something that is relatively stable, appeals to a wide demographic of customers, and isn't too avant garde or too boring, and milk it until they move onto the next big thing.

As an example, take the Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed franchises- these games have not innovated anything in the past few years of their development, and while CoD has become a joke meme to refer to flashy but ultumately substance less entertainment (not unlike Michael Bay's films), the last Assassin's Creed, Unity, was absolutely REAMED by both the press and customers alike for being a clunky, horribly glitched, unfinished piece of crap that was rushed out with next to know beta testing and relied on hype and diehard fans for its sales- which is exactly how it recouped costs. And Ubisoft has absolutely no incentive to make the next game any better, because they don't want to waste money on the chance their mext IP may fail.

Why do so many great and innovative mods get created? Because their authors have no financial incentive- the only incentive they have is their own personal interest to see something realized, made by themselves, for themselves. And by sharing it with other people, fellow modders either ignore it if they think its a bust, or contribute to it, FOR FREE, if they think it has potential, or think it just needs a little push in the right direction. Their incentive? Personal reasons- arguably even selfish ones, but constructive ones nonetheless.

You want to know what will REALLY happen with the paid skyrim mods page? Fancy hats. Porn skin texture mods. New weapon models which don't actually so anything except look cool. Copy and pasted mods from foreign countries that have been conveniently altered just enough that they pass as "not copywrite infringing," or otherwise stolen from unknown or smalltime modders who cannot mount a defense of their work.

Spending egregious amounts of time making massive projects would not only be unlikely, but unprofitable. In the amount of time a single mod author would spend to create such a mod and price it accordingly, they can, and would, be doing something else that makes them far more money in a shorter span of time for less risk. Like the above mentioned shovelware. That is not even considering that even if they formed into groups, dividing the profits up evenly would be a nightmare that would likely destroy inexperienced teams (and lets be honest here, most modders are amateur game developers at best, not people with at least five years experience in the field and experience working on deadlines with other strangers), which is to say, most of them. Look at kickstarter projects for games that have failed, and look at kickstarter projects for games that have succeeded the kickstarter, but failed afterward (Dysfunctional Systems). For most people in it for the money, it is simply not worth the time, or in their best interest, to make anything with a quality level beyond mediocre.

In conclusion, I am actually not against modders receiving compensation of some kind. But what people seem to forget is that they are not Sid Meier, Molyneux, or Gaben- you are not a professional, and if you were, you wouldn't be wringing your hands trying to make a living off of modding games, you would be freelancing, getting contracts, working on some indie title or already in the field. You aren't J.K.Rowling or Stephanie Meyer or Stieg Larsson- you are some kid who wrote a book in looseleaf with a number 2 pencil and think you are entitled to being paid via a vanity publishing company (look up why that's a bad thing). You aren't Christopher Nolan- you are a kid with an expensive camera that made a decent 15 minute demo reel and show some compentence with After Effects, trying to get a Hollywood commission.

You are a person who spends their free time making modifications for a game you already paid for, using tools you are under license to use, not own, using content that is NOT yours, and using other people's content that they have graciously let you have for free. So while you should certainly have some compensation of some kind, remember that ultimately you aren't anywhere near as entitled to things as you believe you are.

Signed, a struggling business owner in a different entertainment field with a similar problem.

digitaltrucker wrote: Funny how few mod authors thought they were 'entitled to compensation' before this paid model came along...seem to be more of them now.

WightMage wrote: No s#*!? That's greed for you, true greed, and not the kind of greed that actually improves things.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: Excuse me sir, and I mean this as respectfully as I can, but you could not be more utterly wrong.

Yes, this is not the end of the world or the end of free modding. But on any other point you made you are so completely wrong that you are likely from a parallel universe where Comcast cares for its customers, EA makes games that intelligent, well-adjusted individuals enjoy, and Islamic State is a humanist, welfare organization that promotes women's rights and protects Christians from persecution.

These are VIDEO GAMES. ENTERTAINMENT. An escape from the daily stress of the world. Mods are open source creative artistic endeavors meant to expand the replayability of that entertainment media.

To endlessly monetize every aspect of video games, to take art and put it behind paywalls, is the antithesis of what video gaming is about.

We have watched video game budgets balloon to support superficial graphical improvements with nearly no improvements to actual gameplay innovation, release content carved from games in development to become paid DLC that subtracts from the value of the game but increases the price, AAA and Indie products released not only in unplayable forms upon official release dates but be complete deceptions of their gameplay demonstration videos, microtransactions that sell away challenge into oblivion....

And now we are to be nickel and dime'd for free, open source creative art that we have enjoyed for years so that content creators can sell stolen collaborative work from our community for a messily 25% cut of the earnings so maybe, just maybe they can pay rent while Bethesda and Valve trample on the communities that built them up to oppose the greedy profiteers like EA, Ubisoft, and Activision?

If the Dark0ne considers this to be abuse in anyway, then he is entitled to permaban me. I will not resent it (much). But while I abhor genuine abuse myself, I also abhor the notion that people would support the absolute, unconditional monetization, copyright, and commodification of joy and imagination. And while I will do my best, in my current state of passionate outrage (my 498 hours of Skyrim is not the most but I am a mod enthusiast at heart and a former beta tester of The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod that brought a game back from unplayability to near-completion), to remain civil, I do not begrudge those who resort to crude, language to lament and protest this most unholy disrespect to the divine spirit of PC video gaming.

I wish you well. Good day. Etc.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: I salute this post.

pigtailsboy wrote: I would say it's a problem for modding when big mods start going to paid DLC like Wet and Cold, like Midas Magic, like iNeed. True those are big mods with authors who feel deserving enough to be compensated for their effort but they're also popular and important to the culture of modding.

I can almost feel my self shying entirely away from the idea of paid functional content. And when something like Wet and Cold has integration with mods that are not purchasable content but from a community standpoint are nearly inseparable I have to side against it.

Another thing is purchasable mods are going to cut off some people from that content. Whatever you think you're wrong. And not because a lot of us have now decided without even discussing it to boycott this content but because some of us can't afford or justify to afford even the cheapest of DLC. There in lies another problem.

Lastly we're not all of the opinion that the mod authors are greedy. That slander is directly pointed at Valve and Bethesda. And it's their entitlement to a larger portion (if suggestions are true) that will drive a higher minimum price tag on the available mods because those mod authors seek to reach that price ceiling so they can break out and start actually earning from their work.

Erinaea wrote: "
It isn't the end of the world. It isnt the end of free modding. And, it is an inevitable change. There is nothing wrong with people being able to charge for their time and talent, mods that are terrible and not worthy will not be purchased. Mods that are, will.

I for one think setting the framework for allowing people to charge for mods is a good thing overall. We will see more quality, better support, and better updates from modders. It is a natural progression and I for one am all for it."

How about this: make an option on Steam profiles for users to tick. If they want to pay for mods, they tick that option. If not, then they can download for free. You want to pay for mods? You have at it. Better yet, just donate to mod authors who have impressed you with their work..like you mentioned at the bottom of your post.

I won't even get in to the fallacious reasoning with your implicit assumptions about mods getting better and such.

People with your opinion are akin to those who are on a sinking ship and decide to grab whoever's closest and drag that person to the depths with them.

danjal wrote: The long and short is, Valve's deal isn't very beneficial for the mod authors.
Even if you ignore the 25% / 75% financial distribution.
Valve provides little to no support to the table.

They expect a mod author to work at the level of a professional game developer and be fully informed already.
They also expect the mod author to solve all issues.
Valve takes a complete hands-off approach and won't even remove a mod if the author requests it "Unless legally forced to."

Lets face it. Would you pay for a mod if you did not have the guarantee that it work work?
Knowing full well that the refund policy isn't the ideal solution and that Valve reserves the right to retract your access to it at any given time should they 'suspect foul play'?

Valve / Steam Workshop also lacks most tools that the average mod user will need once the game gets modded beyond a certain point.
Again, Valve has shown little to no inclination to invest here.
Otherwise they would've gone ahead and provided such support beforehand.

Brasscatcher wrote: "You are a person who spends their free time making modifications for a game you already paid for, using tools you are under license to use, not own, using content that is NOT yours, and using other people's content that they have graciously let you have for free. So while you should certainly have some compensation of some kind, remember that ultimately you aren't anywhere near as entitled to things as you believe you are.

Signed, a struggling business owner in a different entertainment field with a similar problem."

Wight. Just...just DAMN. This whole post is 5-star material. That is one of the strongest closings I've ever had the pleasure of reading. I'm screen-capping this sucker for later dissection. Cheers!

Milleuros wrote: """Funny how few mod authors thought they were 'entitled to compensation' before this paid model came along...seem to be more of them now. """

Indeed.


That's what you get when money get into the equation.

Just for some politic analogy, not wanting to run an argument on that. What we had yesterday was anarchy. No rules at all. Yet people had ethics, modding was fair, the community was supportive.
What we'll have tomorrow is capitalism. You just add money to it, and bam you forget about ethics and fairness.

Realizing this analogy, I find the reaction of the community extremely funny.

carlocgc wrote: Its a massively divisive issue, dividing the modding community and the free spirit of modding will be lost. People will not share their work if its worth money. Just look at the DLC market! do you want to see this happen to modding too?

As many ppl here pointed out - if I have to buy the mod, then the author is no longer modder, but a content creator and as he is charging me money, I will have much higher standarts to expect from paid mod. Something like - less buggs, compatibility with other mods, no need to spend 5-10 hours fixing the mods, proper support, not to wait fo patch weeks or months. Can someone do this? no. Becouse the mod framework from bethesda isnt THAT robust and everyone here can tell you that they spent hours just getting these things to work.

Now, try to imagine that you run with 200+ mods. Now, you HAVE TO pay minumum of 1 euro for every mod you have there. so, you spent 60 E on game, another 45 E on DLCs and now 200 E for your mods. I can see you happy as frakk :)

Now, I do think, that modders deserve some money, sure. Its hard work. But as you said, if steam put OPTIONAL, I think ppl would spent more money.

Furthermore - I think its bit*h if someone put most up-to-date version behind pricetag and abandon their work here, on nexus. Thats the behavior users despite and thats why we have 50k+ petition up on internet.

Now, if modder post MAJOR update as time exclusive ( lets say 2-3 weeks, not a whole month) behind price tag, i would be SEMI ok with that. But as right now, am refusing to spend 5 dolars on WET and COLD. That mod isnt worth that much and the author blatantly stated that his fans can go fu*k themselfs, becouse he wont be updating his mod for free anymore. And look at his Nexus and steam page. That rage is just monstrous, and it is deserved.

Howgh :D

[Asyrin]

I would like the option for a subscription-based donation to a specific mod, please, that allows me to automatically donate a specific amount per month.

 

Obviously it wouldn't be a requirement, but would be a nice option. Hopefully paypal can work that way or some other cash transfer method?

 

Thanks!

[Jsmorris14]

In response to post #24629149.

Shurah wrote:

Ill keep a eye out for this. It sounds like a great mod!

[mongbong]

In response to post #24622409. #24622729, #24622874, #24623274, #24629694 are all replies on the same post.

sparkleman wrote:

fgambler wrote: To make a game, then advertise and distribute you need to spend thousands (or even millions) of dollars. Modders don't spend nothing besides time. Do not try to compare both things.

By the way, lots of modders already got jobs in the gaming industry by doing excelent works for free. The closest example here is the Falskaar creator. Team Fortress, Counter Strike and Dota were also mods, and look where their creators are now.

akparkison wrote: I just wanted to say I have a lot of respect right now for the Beyond Skyrim team. That is one exception I would make to paying for a mod. The only exception. Period.

sparkleman wrote: Which is exactly my point they're hard work that they did for free paid off by them getting recognized and into a solid job within the games industry instead of them getting pittance while they're be abused by Valve and Bethesda.

Leash786 wrote: I would happily pay for "Beyond Skyrim," and smile, but is it ever going to come to fruition?

What is worth more, your time or your money. The oldest question in the book and up to personal preference.

Remember: you cant buy time. Not yet anyway.
but I'm sure if ever, Crapthesda will charge you triple for every second.

[Milleuros]

In response to post #24629839.

Asyrin wrote:

I still think even donations are a bad idea. Because there will be jealousy/envy between modders who were lucky enough to get lots of donations and modders with better work yet less donations.

One can imagine "donation bonuses". You donate, you get a bonus.

Money should never have appeared in modding. I was once a modder, I never felt I deserved any kind of reward. I was using a game motor which was not mine, an official tool which was not mine, modding tutorials not written by me and getting the help (as answers to my questions) from many other modders.
The only reward I wanted was a "hey bro, nice mod there, I frankly enjoy it".

[L3st4t]

My opinion , i think there are modders out there that deserve something ,because some mods are awesome ,(questmods and overhauls), more than a donation that sometimes really come not easy to do , i would be glad to pay 1euro or 2euro subscription for 1year to NEXUS ,this subscrition can be use to give something to modders tie to endoursements ,For example ,a modder get 0,10cents or 0,20cents for every endorsments that his mod gets ,in this way the modders can get something for the real value of the mod, if the mod work usually get more endorsements so it's more fair and push also modders to impruve, everyone of us users can spend 1e-2e-5e fee a year, plus this can fight the cartel that Bethesda and valve are trying to impose in Steam

[Milleuros]

In response to post #24626904. #24629779 is also a reply to the same post.

Nightasy wrote:

Impulseman45 wrote: Dude, I do not know what to say, but boy do you feel entitled or what. You would not even be the modder you are if were not for all the people that downloaded your mods. You can make all the mods you want, but if they do not get downloaded they are nothing. The people that downloaded your mods are the ones that supported you in your ventures and encouraged you forward. So you couldn't make money on the mods in the past. Well those were the rules that were set down by Bethesda not us. Giving us all attitude over the fact is not going to win you points. Don't get me wrong, I feel that modders that put tons of time and effort into mod making do deserve to get something. It wasn't an option in the past and it is now. But it is just not the time to be jumping the gun. If i were you I would and see how this all shakes out. It could very well blow up in Bethesda's face big time. The whole pay scale is a total ripoff and you are not gong to earn anything really. Wait and see if they restructure the scale of things. The other things to remember that once you go behind that pay-wall all your mods are theirs and you have to all the support work for it for a mere 25% cut.They are not going to let you pull your mods out. Talk to Chesko about it. Is it really worth risking everything just so you feel that you are finally getting what you feel you are due.

""keep in mind that it is their mods and if they want to sell them that is their choice.""

I stopped there.

They use a game motor which is not yours and they have no right on it. They use the creation kit that they got a free license on it. They rely on community-made tools and read several tutorials from community members to make their mod.

By putting it on the Steam Workshop, they directly agree that all rights from their mod belong to Valve and Bethesda.
If they do not agree, then they forgot to read the conditions.

A modder has no right on its creation. He can just ask people to be honest.