Steam Service Providers, and some how needing to clarify the Nexus stance again

[Thandal]

I would welcome an easy way to pay for mods if the said mods are priced fairly...

 

Define "fairly". Fair for whom? Fair according to whom? Fair by what standard?

 

And tell me how Valve (or anyone else) is going to deal with unscrupulous people who upload mods made partially, or entirely, by others but the revenue now goes to the thief.

 

Tell me how they're going to deal with mods that break a player's game because they're poorly written, or conflict with other mods already installed.

 

Tell me how they will deal with claims of copyright infringement through the use of assets from other games.

 

These are just a few of the questions Valve has left unanswered. And so far their half-assed answers have been abysmal, (e.g. a legitimate author has had his free-to-all mod removed from the Steam Workshop because a thief copied it, then added it to the "pay site" and filed a copyright claim regarding the original.)

[UberSmaug]

In response to post #24698319.

Thandal wrote:

This is from the Steam FAQ

"Q. Can I sell a mod that contains artwork or content from another game or movie?
A. You must have the necessary rights to post any content that you post to the Steam Workshop, whether it is for sale or not. If you upload copyrighted content that you or your contributors do not have the rights to distribute, then you may forfeit all earned revenue from the item, may be liable for damages and compensation, and may be banned from future participation in this Workshop or the Steam Community in general.

Q. What if I see someone posting content I've created?
A. If someone has copied your work, please use the DMCA takedown notice."

Q. What happens if a mod I bought breaks?
A. Sometimes one mod may modify the same files as another mod, or a particular combination of mods may cause unexpected outcomes. If you find that mod has broken or is behaving unexpectedly, it is best to post politely on the Workshop item's page and let the mod author know the details of what you are seeing."

Modders will have to cover their own asses in some aspects but you should be doing that anyway. Edited April 27, 2015 by UberSmaug

[SilverNirvash]

In response to post #24695344. #24697599 is also a reply to the same post.

OnHolyServiceBound wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: I agree that you should be able to set the range to 0. However you would then also need a way for users to go back and "donate" retroactively if they wish to do so. That is how this should have been implemented. Essentially that's what the Nexus has been doing all along with donations. Except as a modder you would be setting a MSRP (Modders Suggested Retail Price)

If you have previously been offering a mod for free I don't think it is right to cut it and then start charging for it unless you have made sure the paid version is offering new content, not just bug fixes. Still hiding the free version you have previously given is wrong. As a modder you must understand that as soon as you upload your file there is no going back. You are making a commitment to keep your mod up to date and provide technical support as needed. Also I don't remember the exact verbiage but I seem to remember something in the modding agreement that all mods, even free mods are technically the property of Bethesda once they are uploaded. And that was a few years back when I read it.

If your are selling a mod it should be for a fair price and the content should be 100% original, of a high quality and properly integrated into the game. Ideally through a small quest, not something you need to use the console to get. The mod should be stand alone, if not you must get permission and pay out your contributors. If you are working as team your uploader should be someone you trust to allocate the funds appropriately (Steam is right not to get involved in that.) For this to work there needs to be a code of conduct that is honest and respectful to all parties. If your mod dose not meet that criteria than it should remain free. I think there is more than enough room for paid and free mods to exist together.

aside from the idea that lowering the price minimum to 0 the workshop in of itself has massive issues and limitations because of that. For starters when you download a mod it doesn't download it in the form of a FOMOD or even as a RAR or EXE, it downloads it in the form of loose files or BSA files like a normal DLC would through steam. So if a mod like, lets say Book of Silence which comes with a FOMOD installer by default through MO or NMM were to be uploaded to the workshop and sold there, how would you go about selecting your features for the mod? which armors would be installed, any texture options, weapon options if it includes any, etc. In a standard DLC there are no feature choices, it installs everything, modding on the other hand comes with far more complexity. So, before valve even thought that this idea was smart to implement they should have had a hard look at their workshop system, compare it to the tools and resources given to the modders and mod authors here on the nexus, and then revamp their system to reflect what the community as a whole would need to make it even seem logical to use.

anyone who's been with this community long enough knows that modding a game like skyrim takes more than a simple click of the subscribe button. Mods sometimes need cleaning, load orders need adjusting, INI files need tweaking, resource files need to be moved and placed in the correct location, hell even SkyPROC Patches need to be run. None of these things can be provided with the current system the workshop uses as they do not have the legal rights to host such modding tools like TES5Edit and LOOT and the like on their servers. They don't own them and they'd need the people who made them to agree to having them uploaded to the tools section of steam's library to make sure the modding community had everything they needed there before hand. Otherwise we'd still need third party programs downloaded and installed through external sites. iNEED by Isoku requires SKSE and SKYui by default to fully function yet they provide no external links to where you can find them directly, instead Isoku proves a link to his FAQ page, which if you dig into it and go to the starting up section contains the links you were looking for. But he can't legally provide a link on the workshop page can he? I doubt it.

There are just so many issues with the workshop in regards to third party content for a game like Skyrim that it just doesn't make sense to even bother with using a paid service yet, not a legit one at least. I'm sticking with donating to the content creators directly when i can afford it.

[Fowldragon]

In response to post #24688489. #24688904, #24690914, #24691034, #24691269, #24691774 are all replies on the same post.

Fowldragon wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: The compensation will be going to (mostly) the wrong people. What Pay Mods will do is give the wrong incentive for future modders... modders who do not know and are not part of the long history of game devlopment and pushing the boundaries. If it all goes pear shaped it will bite Valvesda in the ass.

Shame is it will also hurt the "ethical" gamers out there. That being said there will always be new games and new platforms.

Fowldragon wrote: How can it go to the wrong people?

I have no clue how compensation works, but I bet it will be "GAMED"..say, a mod is compensated on the basis of FAVES and SUBs...I know of multiple mods that have major support but never amounted to much or even got finished...One I know of had 500+ faves and 1500 subscriptions. It was to become a new world in the spirit of another FALSKAAR..it was on STEAM's hot list and yet it never grew more than .123Mbytes. It was suggested that the whole thing was a scam to see how many people would endorse a project that was NEVER intended to be Started...much less finished.

Even if it worked one time, it won't work again.."Fool me once, shame on you.Fool me twice, shame on me.". OTOH, not everyone's first try is a success. I imagine some of my favorite modders made a right mess of it their first time out.

STEAM recently added BLENDER to its modding tools. It reminded me of a History lesson ... the people who made the MOST MONEY during the 1849 California gold rush...were the people selling tools and supplies.

Lateraliss wrote: Fun fact. Did you know that the Bible isn't referencing the eye of a needle of a sewing needle? There was a gate in Jerusalem called The Eye of the Needle. It was too small for a camel and its baggage to get through, so the people would have to first take all the baggage off the camel and the camel would have to basically crawl through.

It's a good metaphor, as the camel would have to remove all its possessions before passing through the gate.

sunshinenbrick wrote: By "wrong people" I mean if someone free loads off other people's hard work and then goes to make loads of money selling it to unsuspecting people.

diyeath wrote: Principal and conviction are only luxuries when you surround yourself with an environment that's counter intuitive to those concepts.

@lateraliss..That IS a fun fact!! I honestly thought it was literally a needle.

@sunshinenbrick...Money always changes the game...and it always attracts the people who want to get something for nothing...but the net is a collective that has innumerable sets of eyes. My Best friends Mom used to always say, " What is concocted in the Dark, will always be revealed in the light of Day.
My greatest fear, is not of the few Toads that will MUCK it up...Rather, it will be the Stroti's Tamiras, Elianoras and literally Everyone who has ever given their work away for nothing more than the courtesy of being attributed for their work... who are forced to revoke that GOOD WILL

@diyeath People have to pay bills, a man/woman of Good Character and Conscience is no exception. I won't debate this. Life is full of examples of ordinary people who dealing with extraordinary circumstances make difficult but pragmatic decisions...Not every fight.

[UberSmaug]

In response to post #24695344. #24697599, #24698689 are all replies on the same post.

OnHolyServiceBound wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: I agree that you should be able to set the range to 0. However you would then also need a way for users to go back and "donate" retroactively if they wish to do so. That is how this should have been implemented. Essentially that's what the Nexus has been doing all along with donations. Except as a modder you would be setting a MSRP (Modders Suggested Retail Price)

If you have previously been offering a mod for free I don't think it is right to cut it and then start charging for it unless you have made sure the paid version is offering new content, not just bug fixes. Still hiding the free version you have previously given is wrong. As a modder you must understand that as soon as you upload your file there is no going back. You are making a commitment to keep your mod up to date and provide technical support as needed. Also I don't remember the exact verbiage but I seem to remember something in the modding agreement that all mods, even free mods are technically the property of Bethesda once they are uploaded. And that was a few years back when I read it.

If your are selling a mod it should be for a fair price and the content should be 100% original, of a high quality and properly integrated into the game. Ideally through a small quest, not something you need to use the console to get. The mod should be stand alone, if not you must get permission and pay out your contributors. If you are working as team your uploader should be someone you trust to allocate the funds appropriately (Steam is right not to get involved in that.) For this to work there needs to be a code of conduct that is honest and respectful to all parties. If your mod dose not meet that criteria than it should remain free. I think there is more than enough room for paid and free mods to exist together.

SilverNirvash wrote: aside from the idea that lowering the price minimum to 0 the workshop in of itself has massive issues and limitations because of that. For starters when you download a mod it doesn't download it in the form of a FOMOD or even as a RAR or EXE, it downloads it in the form of loose files or BSA files like a normal DLC would through steam. So if a mod like, lets say Book of Silence which comes with a FOMOD installer by default through MO or NMM were to be uploaded to the workshop and sold there, how would you go about selecting your features for the mod? which armors would be installed, any texture options, weapon options if it includes any, etc. In a standard DLC there are no feature choices, it installs everything, modding on the other hand comes with far more complexity. So, before valve even thought that this idea was smart to implement they should have had a hard look at their workshop system, compare it to the tools and resources given to the modders and mod authors here on the nexus, and then revamp their system to reflect what the community as a whole would need to make it even seem logical to use.

anyone who's been with this community long enough knows that modding a game like skyrim takes more than a simple click of the subscribe button. Mods sometimes need cleaning, load orders need adjusting, INI files need tweaking, resource files need to be moved and placed in the correct location, hell even SkyPROC Patches need to be run. None of these things can be provided with the current system the workshop uses as they do not have the legal rights to host such modding tools like TES5Edit and LOOT and the like on their servers. They don't own them and they'd need the people who made them to agree to having them uploaded to the tools section of steam's library to make sure the modding community had everything they needed there before hand. Otherwise we'd still need third party programs downloaded and installed through external sites. iNEED by Isoku requires SKSE and SKYui by default to fully function yet they provide no external links to where you can find them directly, instead Isoku proves a link to his FAQ page, which if you dig into it and go to the starting up section contains the links you were looking for. But he can't legally provide a link on the workshop page can he? I doubt it.

There are just so many issues with the workshop in regards to third party content for a game like Skyrim that it just doesn't make sense to even bother with using a paid service yet, not a legit one at least. I'm sticking with donating to the content creators directly when i can afford it.

Some mods will just have to remain free if they are unable to jive with the paid format.

[Fowldragon]

In response to post #24688489. #24688904, #24690914, #24691034, #24691269, #24691774, #24698794 are all replies on the same post.

Fowldragon wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: The compensation will be going to (mostly) the wrong people. What Pay Mods will do is give the wrong incentive for future modders... modders who do not know and are not part of the long history of game devlopment and pushing the boundaries. If it all goes pear shaped it will bite Valvesda in the ass.

Shame is it will also hurt the "ethical" gamers out there. That being said there will always be new games and new platforms.

Fowldragon wrote: How can it go to the wrong people?

I have no clue how compensation works, but I bet it will be "GAMED"..say, a mod is compensated on the basis of FAVES and SUBs...I know of multiple mods that have major support but never amounted to much or even got finished...One I know of had 500+ faves and 1500 subscriptions. It was to become a new world in the spirit of another FALSKAAR..it was on STEAM's hot list and yet it never grew more than .123Mbytes. It was suggested that the whole thing was a scam to see how many people would endorse a project that was NEVER intended to be Started...much less finished.

Even if it worked one time, it won't work again.."Fool me once, shame on you.Fool me twice, shame on me.". OTOH, not everyone's first try is a success. I imagine some of my favorite modders made a right mess of it their first time out.

STEAM recently added BLENDER to its modding tools. It reminded me of a History lesson ... the people who made the MOST MONEY during the 1849 California gold rush...were the people selling tools and supplies.

Lateraliss wrote: Fun fact. Did you know that the Bible isn't referencing the eye of a needle of a sewing needle? There was a gate in Jerusalem called The Eye of the Needle. It was too small for a camel and its baggage to get through, so the people would have to first take all the baggage off the camel and the camel would have to basically crawl through.

It's a good metaphor, as the camel would have to remove all its possessions before passing through the gate.

sunshinenbrick wrote: By "wrong people" I mean if someone free loads off other people's hard work and then goes to make loads of money selling it to unsuspecting people.

diyeath wrote: Principal and conviction are only luxuries when you surround yourself with an environment that's counter intuitive to those concepts.

Fowldragon wrote: @lateraliss..That IS a fun fact!! I honestly thought it was literally a needle.

@sunshinenbrick...Money always changes the game...and it always attracts the people who want to get something for nothing...but the net is a collective that has innumerable sets of eyes. My Best friends Mom used to always say, " What is concocted in the Dark, will always be revealed in the light of Day.
My greatest fear, is not of the few Toads that will MUCK it up...Rather, it will be the Stroti's Tamiras, Elianoras and literally Everyone who has ever given their work away for nothing more than the courtesy of being attributed for their work... who are forced to revoke that GOOD WILL

@diyeath People have to pay bills, a man/woman of Good Character and Conscience is no exception. I won't debate this. Life is full of examples of ordinary people who dealing with extraordinary circumstances make difficult but pragmatic decisions...Not every fight.

srry, "Not every fight, is the "GOOD FIGHT"

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24688489. #24688904, #24690914, #24691034, #24691269, #24691774, #24698794, #24698939 are all replies on the same post.

Fowldragon wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: The compensation will be going to (mostly) the wrong people. What Pay Mods will do is give the wrong incentive for future modders... modders who do not know and are not part of the long history of game devlopment and pushing the boundaries. If it all goes pear shaped it will bite Valvesda in the ass.

Shame is it will also hurt the "ethical" gamers out there. That being said there will always be new games and new platforms.

Fowldragon wrote: How can it go to the wrong people?

I have no clue how compensation works, but I bet it will be "GAMED"..say, a mod is compensated on the basis of FAVES and SUBs...I know of multiple mods that have major support but never amounted to much or even got finished...One I know of had 500+ faves and 1500 subscriptions. It was to become a new world in the spirit of another FALSKAAR..it was on STEAM's hot list and yet it never grew more than .123Mbytes. It was suggested that the whole thing was a scam to see how many people would endorse a project that was NEVER intended to be Started...much less finished.

Even if it worked one time, it won't work again.."Fool me once, shame on you.Fool me twice, shame on me.". OTOH, not everyone's first try is a success. I imagine some of my favorite modders made a right mess of it their first time out.

STEAM recently added BLENDER to its modding tools. It reminded me of a History lesson ... the people who made the MOST MONEY during the 1849 California gold rush...were the people selling tools and supplies.

Lateraliss wrote: Fun fact. Did you know that the Bible isn't referencing the eye of a needle of a sewing needle? There was a gate in Jerusalem called The Eye of the Needle. It was too small for a camel and its baggage to get through, so the people would have to first take all the baggage off the camel and the camel would have to basically crawl through.

It's a good metaphor, as the camel would have to remove all its possessions before passing through the gate.

sunshinenbrick wrote: By "wrong people" I mean if someone free loads off other people's hard work and then goes to make loads of money selling it to unsuspecting people.

diyeath wrote: Principal and conviction are only luxuries when you surround yourself with an environment that's counter intuitive to those concepts.

Fowldragon wrote: @lateraliss..That IS a fun fact!! I honestly thought it was literally a needle.

@sunshinenbrick...Money always changes the game...and it always attracts the people who want to get something for nothing...but the net is a collective that has innumerable sets of eyes. My Best friends Mom used to always say, " What is concocted in the Dark, will always be revealed in the light of Day.
My greatest fear, is not of the few Toads that will MUCK it up...Rather, it will be the Stroti's Tamiras, Elianoras and literally Everyone who has ever given their work away for nothing more than the courtesy of being attributed for their work... who are forced to revoke that GOOD WILL

@diyeath People have to pay bills, a man/woman of Good Character and Conscience is no exception. I won't debate this. Life is full of examples of ordinary people who dealing with extraordinary circumstances make difficult but pragmatic decisions...Not every fight.

Fowldragon wrote: srry, "Not every fight, is the "GOOD FIGHT"

@ diyeath

Man, that is deep... That's got me thinking every which way! Love it :D

[Deleted3507349User]

The REAL reason most of us got into modding (even if it was long before this video actually came out). The sentiment behind it says it all...

 

[backwardsws]

You're really cool.

 

 

 

 

nuf said.

[Chesko]

Robin,

 

I would like to apologize.

 

I keep saying "I want to leave for a while", but I think it's important that I say this now instead of waiting several months.

 

Over the past few days, I have been involved in something with greater magnitude than anything I have ever been involved in before. When I speak, I'm not used to my words carrying as much weight, or for the signal to travel as far. In short, I am not used to having to choose my words with precision.

 

Regarding precision, in particular, I mentioned being involved in an NDA. I used this term off-handedly and only meant to say that "a multi-billion dollar company's representative told me not to say something, and I agreed not to". I should not have used the term "NDA". But (as you summarized) the outcome would of course had been the same. Destruction of trust at best; legal action due to harming another company's business interests at worst.

 

In the 24 hours following the launch of the curated Workshop for Skyrim, I was assaulted on all sides with a constant stream of abuse, attacks, and threats. I have never had to cope with this before in any setting, online or off. I was prepared to simply weather it on Steam Workshop, where I could put that "in a box", not check those messages, and forget about it for a time until things "cooled off".

 

When PC Gamer, Destructoid, Kotaku, and even Forbes (though mercifully not by name) began writing articles about me and the current situation with varying levels of truthfulness, it was at this point that I began to believe that things were spinning completely out of control, and that it was time to leave.

 

Before I did so, I wrote a strongly-worded message on Reddit that provided some details into the situation, as well as having some harsh things about the Nexus. In that moment, I was backed into a corner; I felt very defeated. I lashed out at Valve and Bethesda for throwing me in front of a bus, and for not providing the human-factor support I needed when the bus backed up and ran me over again, and again, and again. They did not do what you would have done, which is protect the member of the community in question.

 

And then I lashed out at you and the Nexus. I did this because, at the time, I needed things to blame for what had happened to me. The Nexus accepting money from a program that was clearly not in the community's best interest (in the community's eyes) seemed like a clear conflict of interest at the time. But like always, it's more complex than that, as you laid out in your response to me, and as you laid out in this article.

 

I apologize for saying what I said, and for any damage or grief it may have caused you. I was angry, confused, and very, very tired. Working 20 hours a day for weeks to finish several projects on a deadline for a company that might change your life will do that to you.

 

I would now like to simply be forgotten for now. I no longer to be a part of this conversation.