Steam Service Providers, and some how needing to clarify the Nexus stance again

[calfurius]

In response to post #24643354. #24643854, #24643949, #24644484, #24645019, #24645409, #24645524, #24646134, #24646729, #24646959 are all replies on the same post.

joz23 wrote:

Qrygg wrote: First of all, no one is forcing you to buy mods, they are a 100% optional part of PC gaming.

Second of all, Nexus is not "in bed" with Valve and Bethesda. Nexus happens to be the largest or one of the largest mod repositories for TESV: Skyrim, and it would be foolish to not have relations with Bethesda, who created the game, and Valve, who distribute the game. If Bethesda got pissed at Nexus, they could issue a Cease and Desist letter for using trademarked/copyrighted material. They support the modding community because, frankly, it means better reviews and more playing of their games on the PC platform; and they don't have to pay a dime of it.

If anything I choose to view the cut from Valve as a thumb-in-cheek move: "Valve is allowing modders to charge money for their mods? Well let's take a piece of the pie, no need for Valve to grow rich off modders hard work!"

PharCry wrote: Qrygg is right, no one is forcing you to download and install content that is not included with the game itself.

But the cut Valve is asking, is a bit absurd... 75% for something they never even touched as far as the game goes? That seems a bit shady IMO...

sh0d4n wrote:

First of all, no one is forcing you to buy mods, they are a 100% optional part of PC gaming.

100% optional FREE part of PC gaming.. Until yesterday.

Second of all, Nexus is not "in bed" with Valve and Bethesda. Nexus happens to be the largest or one of the largest mod repositories for TESV: Skyrim, and it would be foolish to not have relations with Bethesda, who created the game, and Valve, who distribute the game. If Bethesda got pissed at Nexus, they could issue a Cease and Desist letter for using trademarked/copyrighted material. They support the modding community because, frankly, it means better reviews and more playing of their games on the PC platform; and they don't have to pay a dime of it.

So its better to sponge as the community slowly dies?

We are talking a slow death here. May as well take what I can as the ship goes down?

I honestly dont know what to believe. All I know for sure is that this is not good for the modding freedom we have all come love. I dont understand why so many are blind to where it is clearly going to end up. Its like they resigned themselve to the fact that its going to happen no matter what, so the'll just position themselves to benefit from it while they can.

People really are selfish. They are only thinking about the now, not the future generations of modders.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The truth in this is painful to read. Look what Apple did to Linux. Fight the good fight people!

Paragon777 wrote: He's not wrong..
Its not about just complaining or being as simple as "not having to buy" hes talking the truth about how it's heading and what it means. He is simply saying the natural cause and effect of things that WILL 100% happen unless this is reversed.
Its just business and statistics. It will dmg modding.
Sure it will still be around; because it was always a tight nit community however that's IF they don't find a way to eliminate non sanctioned modding as it could be made non sanctioned modding under this coarse in order to protect themselves with this model.
This entire model can be used as a way to profit off modders and at the same time turn all non financial generating contributions to be labeled as some form of piracy..
Since the Publisher is not getting their chunk and or it distracts from their sales.. Do you understand for example a nexus mod could conflict with a well known steam sold mod this would cause conflict that would require actions.
He came up with a valid point; in order to control quality and content because this has opened a mass tear in space of potential lawsuits they will force it to be workshop bound. Let alone by nature with current systems it encourages low quality and sloppy work or then the fact that mods in general brake your game unless you're a master at it lol. Let alone no possible way to even CHECK the quality of a mod yet your still charging for it?
IF MORE control was given to modders via better software tools this could be lessened. OR if Beth took the mods in then looked over them and made sure they worked; by then releasing their own version then giving you your cut.
Its 101 stuff.
Its great to be hopeful and all but this is the agenda. Its was not Val/Beth saying boy gee wiz lets give back to our community... Matter of fact its more like well lets get this "blank" storm over with before the next games come in. This will net them double profits when it does.. Its about Profit...
This is nickle and dimming after a slew of a yr plus now of this kind of thing escalating by companies. At the same time it is literally almost like setting p a sweat shoo lol.

At the same time the current system encourages and rewards fast and sloppy work; it appeals to the get rich quick types; not the modders who work hard and should get something. Even then tech they are using them for cheap content that makes them hundreds and the modders nothing. Again Keep in mind this is LEADING to the next 2 games.
You will get 1000s of greedy people suddenly participating and the slander, he/she stole, used, etc will be impossible to ignore.
The patchiness of making such claims when in these cases people use the same resources; of which none belong to either in the first place is hilarious. But because your being paid this changes that all. Its contradicts to the publishers own stance and IS open to legality.
I mean my god Chesko already got hit day one by a claim; legit or not.. When the get rich YT/twitch wannabe desperadoes join in on this it going to be all hell braking lose. And if they don't start now they will for sure on next release.
At the same time we then have the current debacle going down right now..
SKYui is required for most modders that are new to even intermediate at this stage for MCM capability alone.
Now he has pulled out from nexus (well all future development.) A Core mod needed now for most mods.
At the same time lol even SKyui makes use of SKSE... So SKYui profiting off of not just mod users but modders should be forced to pay SKSE should they not. Im just using this as a small example; but this is the "blank"fest that will be coming.
And you know what who is to say that Beth should not have included their own caked in system like SKui has for modders. Because by not doing so and no controlling profit from both markets they are effectively able to nickle and dime people on a whole 'nother lvl!!!!!
Which is why I said if they are going through with this they are goign to have to give access to much better tools to the communities next time around.

Your not wrong either but you are not at all looking at the reality of the business model nor the effect it will have. The loopholes that will open over this kind of exchange BECAUSE of the BAD people will be so large that if they truly want to keep something functional up they will by nature be required to consolidate their set up; which means the end of nexus and the like.
(Unless of coarse they have something going on behind the scene; which imo is their own business and non of ours.) But you give to much credit to thinking they will just let things stand as is with the way things will go. They might scratch each others back; im not saying its not possible.
But again its the legalities that would by defacto lead to it having to be ended. .ie you cant have your cake and eat it too.
This then leads to a future of companies now getting their content from players at Sweatshop value while they company makes bank. And in order to keep order they would have to lock down any modding not going through official channels as a form of piracy.

Why do you play this down so simple as a god forbid they let modders add an ability to pay.
LOL its an agenda not a handout..

Yes I know English but im bad at it..

shadowslasher410 wrote: You... did read the entire thing right? even the part where it says this:

"I was not under an NDA, I was simply told "we haven’t announced this information publicly yet, so we appreciate you keeping this under wraps for now.". If you believe I should have outed them right there and then and completely destroyed my relationship with Valve and Bethesda then I think you're being naive."

Oh, and by the way, if you think Valve is the first to want to profit off of modders' blood, sweat and tears, you're sorely mistaken. If you Google ANY sufficiently popular mod, I can guarantee you that there's gonna be pirates selling what was supposed to be a FREE MOD for MONEY. And guess what? NONE of that money goes to the mod author, and there are more than a fair few number of morons who will buy it...

sunshinenbrick wrote: How about a model where jobs are offered to the best and most talented modders? Then really will see some inovation in the way companies interact with communities.

PharCry wrote: Modders. Choose. To. Ask. For. Payment.

"He's not wrong..
Its not about just complaining or being as simple as "not having to buy" hes talking the truth about how it's heading and what it means. He is simply saying the natural cause and effect of things that WILL 100% happen unless this is reversed."

And what will happen, "...100% unless this is reversed,"? Steam Workshop and the Nexus are not the only places that host mods, just the most dominant. Not only that, modders ASK FOR WHAT THEY WANT. If you don't want to pay, don't pay, not having a particular mod doesn't give your life less meaning or take away from your gaming experience as it was intended (the old instant gratification issue, which so many seem to feel they are entitled to have).

Hell, as I've said before, if you want something bad enough, go pick up some tutorials on Blender and NifSkope (both free pieces of software, by the way), learn how to use the Creation Kit, and make your own mod! Wow, what a concept! Maybe after you put 100+ hours into a project that you love and enjoy, you might consider releasing it to the Nexus or Steam Workshop, or maybe both, because you think it's fairly well polished. Then you get the messages about bugs, simple issues with textures because XYZ user didn't install it properly, or the download may have just been corrupt, or there was an unexpected conflict with an obscure mod, etc. Do you see where I'm going with this?

We as users, regulate what happens. If we don't want XYZ mod in question (i.e. don't deem it worthy of our money), we don't download it. The modder then either A) does nothing or maybe pulls it down, B) reduces the price or C) increases the quality. How is this so hard to follow? Am I missing something here? Because as far as I can tell I don't think I am...

sunshinenbrick wrote: The problem is that it will turn "free modders" into criminals.

Please see: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/esa-preserving-old-video-game-consoles-museums-tantamount-illegal-hacking-1495805

Comparing preserving retro games is far different then making free modifications. Comparing apples to oranges right there.

Also until they state that "free modding is illegal" that's when you can start raising the red flag. Until then your just doing the slippery slope fallacy.

[xaosbob]

In response to post #24644499. #24644919, #24645074, #24645114 are all replies on the same post.

xaosbob wrote:

PharCry wrote: "Remember that, although Valve's pay strategy is patently unfair, it is the mod author's choice to have their work in the curated Workshop in the first place"

Just re-quoting this, as everyone seems to be forgetting that bit... We all choose to pay or not pay for something. People are acting like spoiled brats here, or thinking they are some champions of freedom by declaring nothing have a price tag attached to it...

This will play out one way or another, we just need to be mindful of all sides of the issue before spouting that one of the sides is XYZ. Just my few cents.

Vidicus wrote: Still missing the point. It has nothing to do with there being a choice. But the fact people are taking part in it, which is supporting it.

Vidicus wrote: Sorry.. double post. Wish I could remove it.

Not missing the point. It is ALL about choice.

The current model sucks, yes, but that isn't the argument--everyone involved knows what the pay split is, and if you don't, then you are not involved in that end of it. it is also by no means the last iteration of what curated modding can be, but for argument's sake, let's say it IS.

Why should people not have the choice to support and take part in it? Why shouldn't mod authors be allowed to charge up front for their work if they wish? Why shouldn't they be allowed to donate some of the proceeds to sites and communities that are inspiring, helpful, useful, fun? Why shouldn't those sites and communities not be allowed to accept those donations? What gives any of us the right to make that choice for them?

To clarify, I use the word "donations" because this isn't contractual obligation for the modders, the corps, or the communities, as Dark0ne and the SWS has made clear. It is a voluntary token of appreciation, not actual business-term kickback.

It seems that most of the odd posturing about the idea that "curated mods are bad" (that I have seen) comes from people who have never made and uploaded a single mod, or done a showcase or tutorial video, or otherwise tangibly contributed to the modding community. Even my sad mod offerings took a lot of time and effort from start to finish, and kinda suck, but at least I know what it's like in the mod author's chair, and that gives me insight and perspective enough to understand the good that could potentially come from this development as well as the bad. Edited April 25, 2015 by xaosbob

[Azradun]

In response to post #24645764. #24646449, #24646594, #24646624, #24647849 are all replies on the same post.

volfin wrote:

Azradun wrote: Before, no one had the motivation to scam people, now they will have one.

PharCry wrote: If no one wants to pay for the mod, they don't have to. What are you even talking about Azradun? And the 24 hour policy is there as well. I swear I'm done after this post unless I open my browser again...

sunshinenbrick wrote: Let us also not forget Skyrim was a bugged out mess of a game when it was released. Continuous digs for payment in order to have a finished game will be next.

rotwhip wrote: thats a pretty ignorant thing to say...

think about it, if it were a scam, nobody would buy it, so the "author" wouldn't even get any money....


even the first person who buys the crap mod will see that it is a crap mod, and return it, posting a comment saying that it is a scam mod, and nobody else will get it........


that's the whole point of the return feature.

I actually bought a mod today (Firelink Implements) and refunded it. You can check it in its comments if you don't believe me.

Cash doesn't go to you, but to your SteaM Vallet. And it takes some days to do so. I'm still waiting.

Also the mod was very small so I was able to test and debug all in about 15 minutes. I don't see it happening with large quest mods so much (for obvious reasons).

Also I'm a paying customer for a product now (especially since my cash is locked down at the moment). I think I *can* offer some criticism :P

[WightMage]

In response to post #24648364.

mkess wrote:

We don't. Chesko and Griefmyst are a big boy and girl, respectfully- I think we should let them enjoy their time away from the modding scene for as long as they like.

Honestly, its for the best. Comments that Chesko and Griefmyst were making in the wake of this disaster on reddit were only hurting their reputation. It didn't help that they rudely found out that Valve now owns all of their assets, all of their work for the past few years.

[HadToRegister]

In response to post #24646984. #24647104, #24647439, #24647524, #24647569, #24647954, #24648029, #24648264, #24648309, #24648414, #24648504, #24648519 are all replies on the same post.

Psijonica wrote:

SchwererGustav wrote: This post wwll be deleted in...3...2...1...

You will see ;)

bigdeano89 wrote: Way to sound like an entitled 12 year old man. Dark0ne has been honest from the start. Good luck trying to find another site btw, all the others are either gone or ALSO took the service provider option. That includes AFKmods etc.

Dark0ne is not the only site to do that, so stop making them out to be the bad guys. Nexus has been around for years giving mod authors FREE space for mods big and small.

Dark0ne wrote:

As you paint yourself as the saviour of the free modding community

This post wwll be deleted in...3...2...1...

Why would I delete it? It's a perfect example of the people who don't actually read what I write and, in the process, make themselves look stupid.

SchwererGustav wrote: Because 2 of my comments got delleted befor...

The 1st was a bit aggressive the 2nd not at all.

rotwhip wrote: ooooh someone is angry.

Psijonica wrote: I read what you wrote and I can only giggle that you have lowered yourself to calling me "stupid" LoL

You can fool all the kids here but anyone with real business and life experience sees right through you.

If I am stupid because I don't take your words at face value then so be it... I am a stupid person who drives a Super Snake and I am laughing at how stupid you may think I am.

Basically you are still supporting Pay-for-Mods just that you are calling it by a different name. Many modders like Emma (I guess you think she is stup[id too now eh? Remember her, yoiur old friend who helped you with your uploaded system all thiose years ago?) also believe that this is wrong in every aspect... but I guess we are just stupid.

I can't really tell youwhat I think of you because hey, I'm in an unfair possition where you are able to swing insults but I can't.

Congratulations! *Applause*

benissugger wrote: he said you "make yourself[es] look stupid", not "you are stupid".

JoeyLock wrote: So basically Psijonica, you're saying "Stop asking me for money! Dark0ne just pay the $500,000 to run this community per year and deal with it!" yes? Think about that statement, Endorsements, Permissions and Donations are the very things that keep this community and these mods afloat, if you want 100% free mods, make them all yourself and pay for the site to upload them on.

twhelan wrote: We must excuse those who cannot understand the context of a single sentence.

WightMage wrote: What does Emma, creator of Vilja, have anything to do with this?

Dark0ne wrote: You started with, in response to my article:

As you paint yourself as the saviour of the free modding community

I've already written:

If people are heralding me, specifically, as their champion in the fight against paid modding then they've done that of their own accord, and I certainly haven't agreed to be that champion....Does this sound like a champion of modding being free everywhere? No, it does not. Do not use me as the poster-child for that campaign as I never said I was.

So you either didn't read it, or you read it, and then decided to say I was painting myself as the "saviour of the free modding community" when I've specifically said I neither am or want to have that title. So yes, you look stupid. Even more so, now.

Psijonica

Am I going to close all my account? No, not yet. But as soon as there is an alternative choice you can bet I will choose it.

I'm sure that threatening to close your FREE Nexus account that you pay NOTHING for, has most of the people at The Nexus quaking in their boots.
Edited April 25, 2015 by HadToRegister

[k7avenger]

In response to post #24643869. #24648234 is also a reply to the same post.

PharCry wrote:

PET6235 wrote: "ZERO IMPACT ON YOUR ABILITY TO LIVE."

Which means it has a very limited shelf life, and as expenses such as housing, medical and other necessities have gone up, people are quitting gaming because they can't afford it anymore. I quit gaming for this exact reason. Many others are too. Yes it is a rough area to navigate and it's not like many of us don't understand why the decision is made, but many of us are also aware that the bottom line of this system will be "Fork over more cash," or leave. that is what happens when your bottom line is profit (Which is the case for most large companies) If one must choose between gaming or hospital, most are going to choose hospital.

The people who this will hurt, are the sharers and the hobbyist those that do this stuff for free just because they want to share. I know that in this day in time it's crazy but those people are out their. If history is any marker, Bethesda and Value will find a way to make it to where any form of free modding is considered illegal by act of piracy and if you want to mod, you either mod in the name of the company, or you don't mod at all.

The one upside I see for this is that we may see people start making games, (After all if I'm being forced to start from scratch, I might as well just make my own game.)

sorry for the long rank. Just don't make the mistake of thinking everybody who can't afford to fork over cash is a freeloader that feels that these people are obligated to provide their content for free. Just don't be surprised when some people are hurt that they can no longer support the author they love simply because they can physically not afford to.

You know what steam early access is? You know how the average quality of game on there hovers somewhere right above "complete crap" ? That's what the workshop is going to become.

If you pay for a mod, there are expectations that are going to have to be met, QA standards if you will. For starters, depending on what mods you download, you need to put those mods to load in a certain order. Steam Workshop doesn't do that. If i have to pay for a mod, that better be done for me. I shouldn't have to turn to 3rd party solutions for this problem if I'm paying for it.

What if a mod is released with a bug, and the mod author never gets around to fixing it because hey, they already made their money (just like Early Access). Steam refunds your money not back into your bank, but your steam account. Its money that's only good on Steam. And hell, that's only if you do it within 24 hours. Not all bugs are seen within the first 24 hours.

We got mods for free because there was no guarantee that they would work, be bug free, or even be compatible with each other, not to mention the copyright issues. A free mod has no expectations of a release date, or patches. A paid mod does. As soon as you start asking for payment (which as a content creator you are entitled to do) then there are certain standards of quality that have to be met. Can you guarantee that will happen? No, and that's the problem with the system. Edited April 25, 2015 by k7avenger

[corbaer]

Let me preface this with I'm in the camp that thinks this whole paid mods debacle is going to weaken/damage the modding community as a whole (all games eventually)... without the free sharing of knowledge/assets/etc none of the mods that are better than poor would exist and if people start hording info and restricting shared assets it's all gonna fall on it's head...

 

But, if this is going to happen - and it is - we should be looking at ways to mitigate and prevent that from ruling the roost. With that in mind let me pitch an idea for consideration here at Nexus...

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Instead of allocating funds received through being a Service Provider towards the new forum server (make that upgrade as you would have without the source of revenue) allocate it to the development of a solid donation system wherein, a large percentage of SP revenue is pooled and then donated to mod authors via users allocating points to mod authors that make the mods they love.

 

"Premium" users would get a certain number of points each day/week/month that they could assign to their chosen authors, then at the end of the month/quarter the funds collected through being a service provider would be distributed to the mod authors based on percentage of points received.

 

Allow Premium Users to additionally donate to the pool and instantly receive points to distribute as they see fit. This could increase Premium Users for the site, increase incentive to publish on NEXUS instead of Steam Workshop, allow more modders to receive compensation for their efforts and provide users the ability to make less "purchases" of donation funds to distribute more freely to authors that they feel deserve it (think steam wallet scenario for donations).

 

I think it would also encourage the free sharing of assets/knowledge/etc innately, but could even encourage it if authors could cite contributors, other authors assets used, etc for each mod and then a percentage of the donation could be directed to all contributors.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm aware that this could be a huge undertaking with potential legal/overhead concerns, but it's simply an idea for discussion/consideration.

Edited April 25, 2015 by corbaer

[locomotive1236]

In response to post #24637444. #24637704, #24638489, #24647534, #24647779, #24647944 are all replies on the same post.

Milleuros wrote:

Dark0ne wrote: I completely respect and understand your point of view. For me, it's about the gesture of thanks and support the mod author wants to make to the Nexus. We all rationalise these things in different ways to ourselves, to make it seem bad or make it seem OK. I've rationalised it so that I'm OK with it, and I wanted to share that rationale with all of you.

Kentsui wrote: That first paragraph (from Milleuros) is actually a good way of explaining how I feel about this.

While it not being a secret, I feel coming forward about it in your first post about the paid Workshop opening would certainly have done more good than bad.

Considering how things turned-out between Chesko and Valve they certainly need to make some changes FAST or it'll continue to be a mess for everyone.

That 25/75 split is outrageous though and modders really REALLY should think about it twice.

locomotive1236 wrote: I don't believe in the statement black vs white only. There's always a grey area. It is easy in retrospect to look at a situation and say "You should have done this and I would have done that." That's not how real life works. There are no choices you make that do not have consequences. He made his choices based on what information he has available at the time. The justification he made in this blog justifies his thinking in the benefit of the mod users more than anything. It's not like he's earning money and spend it on himself. He's using the revenue to fund the site for users to download mods for free.

Call me a realist, but the real world cost money and you cannot live by principles alone.

PharCry wrote: Dark0ne, always supporting and get where you're coming from with the scale of a web site.

loco, nothing's ever B&W, it's better to not generalize with statements like that and just take in what there is to offer and decide on it from there (as opposed to, "this is good", "this is bad", "this is grey-ish"). Not bashing, just something a lot fall into. Not only that, it seems pretty obvious *most* protesters are just whining about having to potentially pay for mods, should the creator decide to go that route. I don't think any of us can do anything more than react to this when changes are made, and make a wave if things do start to go sideways. The idea is good, the practice needs a bit of work though, eh?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Please watch a couple of documentaries on the financial crash and see if you still have the stance that money makes the world go round.

@pharcry, I think you might have misunderstood my post. All I meant to say is that everything is a grey area and we cannot judge people based on one side of the argument alone. Whatever the mod authors decide to do ultimately is up on them and that Dark0ne did as he believes is the right way to do.
@sunshineandbrick, Are you referring to my statement about money in the real world? I fail to see how market crashing has anything to do with needing money to live or run the server?

[BlackRabbitFantasyandArt]

Frankly, all I care about is that now, one of the communities most well loved and brilliant modders, is gone. Be it for a time, or forever, Chesko has left.

[SchwererGustav]

In response to post #24648989.

lelouch107 wrote:

Loved his Mods, but i can understand his decition and i think even more highly about him now. Not as a modder but as a human who did the right thing.