Steam Service Providers, and some how needing to clarify the Nexus stance again

[DaVincix]

In response to post #24677494. #24677549, #24677769, #24677774, #24680864, #24681269 are all replies on the same post.

digitaltrucker wrote:

bigdeano89 wrote: Now you are just scaremongering, take the tinfoil hat off for the love of God.

sunshinenbrick wrote: If we just sit by and don't do anything I fear he will be right. Google: Nouriel Roubini

digitaltrucker wrote: Not at all, what I stated is exactly what has happened in PC gaming and software as a whole in the past decade.

Mods will be absolutely no different than any other software.

The only reason this hasn't happened in modding before now is that until the last few years modding was largely under the radar.

The only way my above scenario will not play out is if the game manufacturers themselves choose not to make it happen. The games are ultimately their product.

Psijonica wrote: Funny video but Nexus is not the good guy in this situation. But if you want to say that they Knights represent the community in general I am ok with that. At least I can still laugh ;D

I'm so happy to see this because these kids today don't understand the real world and how the corporations are just waiting to pounce. Once they see that there is money in mods the sharks will come. The consequences and ramifications of this are going to ripple and it will take a few years but eveybody in the gaming business is watching what happens.

If we don't fight to stop this, if we don't organize then the, the corporations will steal this all. Once they do that, there will be nothing left.

Forget about a free CK in FO4 or the next Elder Scrolls game. You'll have to buy it or they licence it out for a large amount of money.

It is not just free mods that are at risk... it is free modding.

Dark0ne stands to make hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not close to a million each year) if Pay-for-Mods becomes big as it looks like it will. The new bread of modders are just rolling over and accepting this. SOPA will be next once the Corporations see how easy this take over was. 3-5 years and SOPA will be law. That is my prediction now.

As far as Dark0ne is concerned, I don't trust him at all. He pretends to try and pin Gaber down on the reddit thread but he himself refuses to make his own opinions clear.

I have to say that everyone should read the LEGENDARY MODDER "Emma's" post on Bethesda forum or you can read it on her website here;

http://emmates.proboards.com/thread/1705/regards-charging-mods?page=1#scrollTo=42265

DaVincix wrote: "The games are ultimately their product."

Exactly. I bet many gamers still believe they own a game.
What they pay for is the right to use a software-copy.

I a developer-company or the overall owner/decider of a game-product is going to disable any modding-option for a respective game, they can, legally.

The "only" issue for them is the reaction of the by them known modding-scene/game-community, which are part of their customers.

This said, i'm, rather was, a highly active public modder for many years (another game genre), and i'm pro free modding and free distribution, of course. Nonetheless, realities cannot be ignored.

" I have to say that everyone should read the LEGENDARY MODDER "Emma's" post on Bethesda forum or you can read it on her website here;

http://emmates.proboards.com/thread/1705/regards-charging-mods?page=1#scrollTo=42265 "

@ Psijonica

... thanks for this, and the link to Emma's point on Beth's forum.


Couldn't stress more my support for Emma's expressed opinion: Money ( in this relation and in the last consquence: greed ) is the Poison for the modding-scene and its community. It'll destroy the spirit of modding and sharing.

But, let's face it (again): We are all dependent on the decisions of the gaming-industry. What's the gaming-industry? Real people ... humans, which decide about the game-business-concepts.

[Acidbuk]

I think, TotalBiscuit hit on something when he said, and I quote "Mod Authors didn't release their Mods for free because they wanted too, they did it because they had too. - They legally couldn't sell them". and that, is the fear at the root of all this mess, and it is a whole helping of fear. that because Mod Authors can now charge money for a mod, that they will. that mods will only be sold and all the mods we've come to love will be locked behind pay walls. Its not an entirely unsubstantiated fear either. Yes there will always be "Free mods", same as there is still Open Source Software and Freeware (Some of which is even really, really good) but there is no where near as much Open Source as there is commercial-software. Riddle me this – if the Creation kit had shipped with paid mods as an option three years ago would we now have over 40,000 mods on the Nexus for free? I dare say I don't think we would. That's the Terrible Rub in all this, you look at any community which allows money to be charged for user generated content and that community is no where near as vibrant, diverse or as collaborative. GabeN and by extension Valve and Bethesda have opened a door that has fundamental shifted the physiology of the landscape every Mod Author big and small will now be asking "Why should I release this for free when I can make money from it?" for many it will be an subconscious tick as they approach 'Release day' and a mod wraps up Development others it will be a consideration from the start making a mod to sell instead of just wanting someone to enjoy their work for what it is. Hell Just take a moment to look at Minecraft, Modding, Go Look. I'll wait... Licensing and Distribution of mods for Minecraft is a cluster-f**k because of how Mojang allows creators to make money from mods primarily using Adfly links, they keep an absolute strangle-hold to ensure mods are downloaded via the Adfly links that make them money, you rarely ever see mods including other mods in their work, and mod packs are a legal minefield. Not reserved for the armature..

 

Now, you could argue "Well Mod Authors should be able to make money from their work", and To a Degree that is a fair point, However, taking that at face value - Who makes that money? 30% of it goes straight to Valve for providing you with you access to Steam that is a flat transaction fee, then 45% goes to Bethesda in Royalty payments for owning the IP and allowing you to sell that mod, that's 75% of your whatever you charge you will never see. That leaves 25% for you as creator. But threes more Contractual Mojo – you have to make at least $100, before they'll release any money to a creator at all. So lets do some mathematics Lets say your Mod costs a $1. Of that 30 Cents go to Valve and GabeN. 45 Cents go to Bethesda. You as creator get 25 Cents. That means you have to make $400 worth of sales before you will even see any returns at all.

 

Now Lets look at any given mod, say a larger one – scroll through the description to that list of credits. Depending on the size of the mod this list can get very long, For the sake of mathematics lets say you used assets from 7 mods to make your mod. Other creators Unless its Specifically licensed under CC-ZERO or CC-BY are not going to let you sell their work for free, so they are going to want their cut, of your mod. That comes out of your 25% Stake, so that 25% now gets divided seven ways, which is about 3.5% Each. Some might not want to let you use their assets at all on principle. Or more likely may want to sell their own asset packs and get a 25% stake of that, instead of the 3.5% they can get including it with your mod.

 

It gets even worse with mods that require other mods to function or they break entirely, tens of thousands of mods require SKSE, or SKY-UI or FNIS. Now you either have to Strip away that functionality, or negotiate some kind of licensing agreement with those developers to distribute those runtime Libraries because again if you are getting paid, they want to get paid too. OR you are going to force a user to buy another mod SKY-UI 5 For example, to get your mod working and I'm fairly certain that breaks a law or several about a product being “Fit for sale”. Where-in-by a person that has paid for a product has a reasonable expectation that product will function out of the box a concept that has recently at least in the EU been expanded to include Software. Essentially – if someone sells you a coffee machine, you have a reasonable expectation it will produce a brown liquid that passes for coffee.

Right now, a lot of the Inherent problems of mod making get hand-waved,

 

A Mod Can, and sometimes do break things if a mod breaks your game, corrupts a save, causes major crashes, isn't compatible with another mod, breaks when the game is patched by a developer, or maybe just plane doesn't work from the go. most will shrug there shoulders and go "Eh I didn't pay for it, what can I expect?". Because no reasonable person could expect a Mod Author who is releasing a mod for free to support it. A lot do give up their free time and engage with users to fix problems but they don't have too, they don't have to release patches, or updates or work out compatibility fixes even if a user donates, he or she has zero no expectation of extended support – you donate because you want to donate, not because anyone is forcing you too. Likewise a Mod creator gets a lot of freedom. A Mod Authors word is effectively god, your not forced to make it work if it doesn’t or heaven forbid, freak out in a peak of rage tear all your mods down pretty much on a whim, its a bit of a shitty thing to do but, its your right. we're not entitled to your work, but you are not entitled to our money either.

 

However. Once you put a pay-wall between the user, and the content they want to consume that isn't voluntary (as in not a donation). they are no longer just users, they are customers. And Customers, despite Corporates best efforts have rights too, it doesn’t matter if you are charging $1 or $1,000. Poland for example has some of the toughest Consumer rights laws in the EU, and South Korea has the toughest Consumer rights laws in the world. Things that were hand-waved before, things like Fit for Sale, and Digital Distribution laws that govern online translations, matter. As Author you are no longer completely unaccountable you have obligations, ones backed by actual laws. That have very serious real world penalties for breach.

 

If you think Users are 'Entitled' now, just you wait until money starts changing hands and they have legal rights to back them up if your mod breaks something. Something Chesko is learning the hard way, after charging for Alissa 2.0. I do have a great degree of Sympathy for Chesko and I find some of the things said about him up to and including threats or his life and revealing his personal details absolutely reprehensible on any conceivable moral scale. What is also unacceptable is how Chesko is absolutely livid. That he can't completely remove his content from Steam, Valve have removed it from sale however to remove it entirely , would require including from people who paid for it. People that have paid for access to his content and now have a legal right to that content. As much as I hate to side with Corporate in anything, GabeN is absolutely right and would be in a whole bunch of Legal trouble – trouble Valve would be on the hook for if they allowed content that has been paid for to be pulled on a whim whenever the author likes.

 

Its. A. Rabbit. Hole. One with no bottom that just keeps on giving. Still All of that may be worth it, "25% of something is better than 100% of nothing" after all, But also worth noting is your not making "Real Money", You won't get a cheque in the post - you get "Steam Bucks" to spend...on Steam and only Steam, so the money never -really- leave Valve's accounts so even when its yours it is still making them money.

 

Despite that however, if you want to charge for your mods, I do, Honestly wish you the best of luck, and every success but Don't let Valve or Bethesda dangle a few shiny barbels in front of you and dazzle you into blindly following the path they dictate and ignore your natural urge to question everything and Remember – that once you cross that line, you also have obligations to yourself, to Valve and to your customers. Forward, Eyes open and all sins accounted for.

 

 

[GePalladium]

*pardon my french*

If this was not the internet ... the florist in my village has recently closed. Because of asupermarket, recently built next to it.

This florist closed because people had given in to the supermarket.

If we live nowadays in a society where large companies are crushing small ones. This is because we accepted. Cash is king.

Only modders will make the difference, they should ask themselves reasonably (with all the elements it contains): "Should I sell this file?"

[MCR]

I just realised: we've heard the modders, for and against. We've heard Gabe Newell, yesterday in Reddit. But where's Bethesda? Todd Howard? Pete Hines? They're the third part of the deal, they should be defending their situation and explaining why they believe paid mods are a good thing for the community. By staying silent they're giving the image of being cowards, or not caring one way or the other.

 

Even if it's just PR crap, we deserve to hear something from them.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24682284.

Acidbuk wrote:

Good points. What I am trying to find out is where the morality, the respect in all of this.

I asked a question earlier but I think it got lost among the longer posts.

When the first Beth sdk was released was it just a big TOC or was there a friendly dialouge between the developer and community?

My reason for asking is becasue the way that the pay for mods has been rolled out is very cruel to the authors who made them because they made them out of the good will and love of games, with I imagine the blessing of Beth... I mean they have had some 10 years to take legal action.

My point is that this is a nasty way to intrduce their customers to the developing world of digital copyright. Why is there no communication from them? Why not talk to their audiences like adults as let's face it, most of us saw something like this was inevitable. But why oh why so aggressively? Or just plain clumsy??

[Azulyn]

copy and paste from some random on the internet, which pretty much sums up my main issue with this whole workshop fiasco:

 

"As I said in another post, to me it is more about a quality control/assurance perspective. With these added costs, will there be the same assurance of quality that other published products come with?

 

Mods are generally made by non-professional, one-man (or very few people) crews and are quirky as hell; this mod works with this version of the game, but doesn't play well with mods A and C. Install in this order, blah blah blah.

 

When things were free, I had little right to complain. But now that I am going to pay, I expect certain things.

 

And 24 hours is not enough time to determine such things as stability, incompatability, etc.

 

I honestly do not have any problem paying 1-5 dollars for a really kickass mod, but I am not going to throw my money away and *gamble* on the mod if it has issues."

Edited April 26, 2015 by Azulyn

[secondmoto381]

In response to post #24679789. #24680359, #24680884, #24680909, #24681594 are all replies on the same post.

GhostAgent wrote:

Welewa wrote: Personally, I like this idea. I would endorse it :D and I would donate to my favorite modders as a show of support and appreciation.

bigdeano89 wrote: A "would you like to donate?" popup has already came up on my download page on a few mods today, that made me think about donating, which I did! If you put the idea into peoples heads they will do it.

TKHBMVP wrote: I like this and I'm happy Dark0ne has already implemented the popup note to notice users about the donation feature here on Nexus.

mALX1 wrote:
These are some fantastic ideas. I would also like to see a donate button on that row of buttons for the Endorsements and Votes - so the person who comes back to endorse sees the donate option then; while they are endorsing and commenting the mod.

(To me, it is a better option than the one popping up on download before you even know if you like the mod or if it works).

This idea is the key, it would help bring some modders who have already stated that they are moving to the Workshop for the money back to the Nexus. Not to mention that tons more people would donate on the "merit system".

[greggorypeccary]

Money has always been made on mods.

Steam has always made money because people have kept games alive with mods, therefore generating sales and revenue.

Bethesda has reaped the exact same rewards.

The nexus sells subscriptions and gets paid for advertising. What is their product? the mods made by people that they charge for those subscriptions or subject to that advertising.

They are all corporations that exist to make a profit. No matter how nice and friendly they might seem at times it's the money that drives them and their decisions.

 

The modders were the only ones that didn't profit in a material way, usually. I don't see anything wrong with them sharing in the money that is being made on their labor.

The big companies don't want to share what they are already getting. They want more and they'll share a little of it if they get it.

So now every one is getting mad and modders are still being used.

[Psijonica]

In response to post #24677494. #24677549, #24677769, #24677774, #24680864, #24681269, #24682129 are all replies on the same post.

digitaltrucker wrote:

bigdeano89 wrote: Now you are just scaremongering, take the tinfoil hat off for the love of God.

sunshinenbrick wrote: If we just sit by and don't do anything I fear he will be right. Google: Nouriel Roubini

digitaltrucker wrote: Not at all, what I stated is exactly what has happened in PC gaming and software as a whole in the past decade.

Mods will be absolutely no different than any other software.

The only reason this hasn't happened in modding before now is that until the last few years modding was largely under the radar.

The only way my above scenario will not play out is if the game manufacturers themselves choose not to make it happen. The games are ultimately their product.

Psijonica wrote: Funny video but Nexus is not the good guy in this situation. But if you want to say that they Knights represent the community in general I am ok with that. At least I can still laugh ;D

I'm so happy to see this because these kids today don't understand the real world and how the corporations are just waiting to pounce. Once they see that there is money in mods the sharks will come. The consequences and ramifications of this are going to ripple and it will take a few years but eveybody in the gaming business is watching what happens.

If we don't fight to stop this, if we don't organize then the, the corporations will steal this all. Once they do that, there will be nothing left.

Forget about a free CK in FO4 or the next Elder Scrolls game. You'll have to buy it or they licence it out for a large amount of money.

It is not just free mods that are at risk... it is free modding.

Dark0ne stands to make hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not close to a million each year) if Pay-for-Mods becomes big as it looks like it will. The new bread of modders are just rolling over and accepting this. SOPA will be next once the Corporations see how easy this take over was. 3-5 years and SOPA will be law. That is my prediction now.

As far as Dark0ne is concerned, I don't trust him at all. He pretends to try and pin Gaber down on the reddit thread but he himself refuses to make his own opinions clear.

I have to say that everyone should read the LEGENDARY MODDER "Emma's" post on Bethesda forum or you can read it on her website here;

http://emmates.proboards.com/thread/1705/regards-charging-mods?page=1#scrollTo=42265

DaVincix wrote: "The games are ultimately their product."

Exactly. I bet many gamers still believe they own a game.
What they pay for is the right to use a software-copy.

I a developer-company or the overall owner/decider of a game-product is going to disable any modding-option for a respective game, they can, legally.

The "only" issue for them is the reaction of the by them known modding-scene/game-community, which are part of their customers.

This said, i'm, rather was, a highly active public modder for many years (another game genre), and i'm pro free modding and free distribution, of course. Nonetheless, realities cannot be ignored.

DaVincix wrote: " I have to say that everyone should read the LEGENDARY MODDER "Emma's" post on Bethesda forum or you can read it on her website here;

http://emmates.proboards.com/thread/1705/regards-charging-mods?page=1#scrollTo=42265 "

@ Psijonica

... thanks for this, and the link to Emma's point on Beth's forum.


Couldn't stress more my support for Emma's expressed opinion: Money ( in this relation and in the last consquence: greed ) is the Poison for the modding-scene and its community. It'll destroy the spirit of modding and sharing.

But, let's face it (again): We are all dependent on the decisions of the gaming-industry. What's the gaming-industry? Real people ... humans, which decide about the game-business-concepts.

@ DaVincix

I agree with you completely. Not only do they think they own the game but some time during the height of the Oblivion craze moddders started believing that they owned their mods. As Emma said herself and like I have been saying for years on my blogs and in forums, modders don't own anything. This generation of Skyrim modders are just rude and spoiled children and when they grow and realize what has really happened here then they will all cry foul but it will be too late. I think it is already too late. And so does Emma.

I have know Emma for many years. I have shared laughs and tears through our private conversations. I have been a member of her forum since she released Vilja for Oblivion. Obviously she is very disturbed with what is going on with this new generation of Skyrim modders. Disgusted is really a more accurate word. Which is why she is so upset to see what has happened.

I know because Emma has told me that she has been reduced to tears by many of the rude comments about her mod and her voice. These children are really mean. And that is why I am ready to give up. Why should I care any more... I don't think I do.

It is an end of an era and like Emma I think I am just going to go back to her forum and hide there and watch the chaos destroy what I was a part of, a great community that respected each other. That is all gone now... it will never be the same again.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24683029.

greggorypeccary wrote:

I hear you on the corporation thing but my gripe is that aren't some of the best games developers from modding communities themselves? So have they just lost all their values and replaced it with cash??

I just find this hard to come to terms with, I mean isn't this community a living breathing example of what we can achieve when we work together for the profit of our games not pockets.

So why are Beth being such a holes about on this??