WE WON STEAM REMOVES PAY FOR MODS

[Xenoshi]

 

I haven't read any background info on Steam's "Skyrim Workshop". Is any of it relevant to Oblivion mods or was it just a Skyrim thing?

 

Generally the bottom line imo is, as soon as money starts being exchanged it stops being a community and becomes a commercial venture. Please pick just one of those two and go with it.

 

Also I had to laugh at Bethesda taking 45% of the revenue. They can't be bothered to fix 1500+ bugs in Oblivion, but they're standing there waiting for 45% when their customers fix these problems for them. What a business model.

It was only Skyrim. They will probably revisit this when it comes to their next game, but it would never work with older games like Oblivion.

 

Why would they take money from what was the last game they released to fix a game which they've already completely stopped supporting? I know you expect certain things, but that really isn't a good business model. A company that wants to remain in business doesn't spend money on things which won't in turn earn money back for them. Even in regards to Skyrim, there is nothing which would hint towards them having any interest in spending that money towards more patches. The reality with modern games is that often there are aspects which can never be patched out, or which are bugs that only even occur once you've added mods or used the console. This is one of the reasons why no games of significant size are bug free. Nevermind the part where a patch fixes one bug but creates others.

 

In relation to the modding scene, significant bugfixes often break more mods than they fix since those mods may touch on some of the same mechanics or areas which were changed, thereby causing the mod to either break those mechanics completely, conflict with the changes, or causes the mod to stop working. Not sure if you've noticed, but modding with these sorts of games really only ever picks up and enters into full swing once all the patches are done and overwith. A large reason for this is because it is at that point that people can start investing hundreds of hours into a project without being afraid of a patch that would completely break their mod and force them to abandon the project or spend many hundreds of hours more trying to make the mod work again. Continuous patching only ends up making modders have to start from scratch every single time a new patch is released... Case in point Minecraft Modding.

 

Ugh. Tell me about it. Have you tried modding anything released by Paradox? Their anti-piracy policy is to have an aggressive patch schedule so that it makes the game "harder to create cracks for". So they constantly release patches. It's one of the reasons I stopped supporting my mod for Crusader Kings II, every time I would get it ironed out and working Paradox released a plethora of new patches that broke everything again. Q_Q

 

Also, some victory.

 

 

 

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Edited April 29, 2015 by Xenoshi

[Kraggy]

The sense of entitlement shown by many mod users was truly appalling, I don't blame any modder who removes their work in response.

 

I hope the OP of this thread is pleased with themselves, in the long term mod users are the ones who will lose most.

[Gracinfields]

Dark0ne and and the Modder behind SMIM had a long podcast with Totalbiscuit over on youtube about this.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/TotalHalibut/videos

 

 

They cover a lot of important points but never covered a few points of contention that could cause issue with Valves' poor attempt to have paid for mods. These points being mod theft, paid mods using assets from other mods, and even free mods requiring paid mod dependence (which were not originally pay for mods).

[lessien881]

No one won here. We have seen people crush, threaten, and degrade mod authors that they praised previously. We have seen people attack valve for even having the nerve to try to do anything. We should be sad at how this was handled and ashamed at how people have treated others. There was no victory here.

[Sabbalonn]

I think the people who have invested time and effort into their own work have been robbed of the opportunity to profit, which they have every right to do. Who more deserves to benefit from their work then people who are willing to release it for free ? I think everyone who reacted so horribbly had no right to do so. I think it is a great shame, and i would like to show my support for all mod authours who have been hardmed by this.

 

EDIT: Its a discrace realy. And people who support the donate button, realistically it seees no use and i think modders deserve better.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Sabbalonn

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

The sense of entitlement shown by many mod users was truly appalling, I don't blame any modder who removes their work in response.

 

I hope the OP of this thread is pleased with themselves, in the long term mod users are the ones who will lose most.

 

I agree with you, that if any mod author, whether they were directly targeted or not by the hate, decided not to give us any more mods and or to pull their existing mods down, I wouldn't blame them.

 

BUT, at the same time, I would hope that they would consider that it is entirely possible that this was a situation of a vocal minority and a silent majority of indifference/tolerance.

 

What I mean is, this could be a situation where majority of people were either indifferent and or didn't mind if people charged for mods or not. But because of that, they had no reason to speak up so by removing their mods, it would be very possible that they are in fact punishing the majority of this community rather due to the voices of what was a significant number of people, but still may have been the minority.

[tartarsauce2]

why do mods exist at all? how did modding come into effect? what sorts of societal elements are attributed to it
is it related to hacking originally?

could it be that it kept an association with independent modification of things? if someone wants to say paid mods why not simply say independent developer, since they modify things as well but are not associated with "modding" as a hobby

I've noticed that there's a narrative of "the opportunity for profit"
I know that I'm looking into making gaming stuff and getting money for it, but my primary interest is that I can get money to survive and not die, while doing what I'm interested in doing anyways, is this what people are looking for?

modding has always had an attribution to it that it's unofficial and free from what I've seen - as a game scenario particular form of hacking, so "paid mods" doesn't sound any good to me at all, it's part of the identity, it's the wrong wording to use, 3rd party developments might be a better way of putting it, because paid modding moves into the domain and sphere of the hobbyist modding and doesn't allow for a clear delineation of expectations for people to judge by

how many people who make mods feel it's distasteful to *want* money for mods? as in to actively make mods in an attempt to get money (getting "rich")? how worried do you think others might be about this?
for skyrim I heard of a a total conversion? that's technically a mod but to me that was classifiable as something of an expansion level thing instead of a DLC thing, so that the level of work and quality would validate asking for money

I'd argue modding is an artistic endeavour and that the same issues facing drawn art face modding, how much money would modders get through donations if the other 92% of the using community for the base-game knew about mods more? would the types of people that don't actively go out and get mods as an extension of the game be more free with their wallets? I'm willing to bet yes, but if you're thinking the community was out to give you money you're in the wrong business if it's modding, this is why I suggest putting yourself into two camps, modding, and 3rd party developer - and you can belong in both but keep what you make listed clearly and if it's free it's a mod if it's not it's a 3rd party development as a use-title (or some other thing) but paid mods sounds odd

I also feel that shining the spotlight on mods is a good thing to do, 3rd party developer/or other title attracts people with a level of prestige to the name as well, so that if you DO put it up, people are more apt to trust the naming as opposed to just being one of the "run of the mill mods with a price tag" in a giant deluge, this will also help

and people are right to suspect the "noble intentions of a corporation that just wants to help you get paid for your work" but there's room to work with it and get over it, but co-option is a common tactic of moneygrubbers, and they've been quite successful around the world in causing problems, I've seen a lot of previously okay organizations get worse and worse as they make compromise after compromise - worse service for a higher price, by being too unaware of the problems that can exist from development of monetization systems, back in the 90's people would grumble but not that much since all the people affected or knowing of the affects also wouldn't have access to a computer really, and they're scared of monetary goals to a degree because of what they've seen

Edited May 2, 2015 by tartarsauce2

[blackasm]

I am an artist and a mod author and I have been more than vocal about standing up for the rights of the artists, but after all of these events it has left me wondering, what would be a better way? I like many mod authors have now been looking at how much my time is worth and I can honestly say I wont be creating art for free any more, I had determined that before with my art, but modding was a sort of grey area for me because I didn't recognize the potential value that I was devaluing by making it free. Tartarsauce, you have a number of valid points especially about what a mod means to people. A major thing to consider when looking at mods; what they are and where they stand now, is that originally modding was created by talented people trying to modify their own game but quickly became an effective platform for aspiring game developers to develop their portfolios and get hired. As games become more complicated and competitive the requirement for specific game development degree programs has become an industry standard and as a result those without the means to achieve that degree are left with talent, interest and ability towards but no way to break into a market. Worse than that is the fact that the game degrees are highly competitive with far more graduates than positions leaving even more unemployed talented individuals. Currently modding as it is today has proliferated because quite frankly there are entirely too many starving artists; really talented individuals who have gotten a gaming degree or something like it, have the know-how, but don't have the job. I feel the amount of amazing mods and their subsequent popularity is proof that there is room for a new market. Technically people have already been profiting off of this market: The Nexus, youtube reviewers and even game companies indirectly profit. What the paid modding attempt proved to modders everywhere was that even a shitty incomplete but good looking armor was worth more once put on market than all of the coin-in-the-cup donations and fake accolades of imaginary endorsements of even the greatest mods. Clearly there is a real and huge market for independent game developers but for it to function it would need a lot of work and some renaming.

 

For the skyrim paid modding system to function properly I am convinced they would have needed to have a much better defined system that properly addressed all of the issues mentioned. For starters I think they would have needed to hire mod organizer and loot team and have them create a better integrated system connected to steam. I think 5% of the sales (presumably taken out of Bethesda's cut) could have been used to pay a team of programmers, modders and even mod contributer/testers that could then help maintain a system of quality assurance. And through that quality assurance system basically limit what content can be put up for sale, so for example a suit of armor would have to have stats that fit into the games lore, balance and have proper perks tempering location in game and whatnot. And even perhaps where if a mod doesn't initially qualify for being sellable it could maybe be allowed later based on endorsements reviews downloads and whatnot. The sale system itself would have to be hugely more indepth with room to split the percentage to the independent developer several ways. Having an integrated system like that would easily inspire more developers to collaborate, for example lets say mod guy A likes to makes cool quest mods but they lack original content, and Mod guy B likes to make cool armors and weapons but cant implement them in the game, and Mod guy C likes to do voice acting and music. On their own they might not have the ability to make a full sellable mod, but they can come together collaborate decide on a percentage and release their cool new indie dlc. Of course I don't really see this happening with skyrim, and it would be waay hard for them to try and implement it, I see a system like this being implemented into their next game which no doubt they are already planning as we speak.

[tartarsauce2]

that seems like a pretty good basis, how might one deal with mod conflicts however? would that be a quality assurance thing that the team would deal with? how would you feel about independent mods with a "bulk bonus" for getting packs, should they be organized by the curators or the people making the mods?

do you feel that this is something that should be built from the ground up and as the game is constructed? I'm thinking existing games don't have a framework to properly get into that level of interconnection between it

it seems like there was mods - expansions, then mods - DLC - expansions, and how would you feel about a specific name (3rd party DLC) or adjective added to DLC to describe the thing since I'm fairly certain the language used affects how people react (not just in a propagandistic way but actually lining up the language to match existing views on what's what) since I'm pretty certain "paid mods" was the worst way to say it so that someone sees mods - (3rd party) DLC - expansions instead of (paid) mods - DLC - expansions

on a side-ish note, what's your experience as an artist previous to the endeavour, you say you were thinking of quitting, it reminds me of myself burning out when playing a certain role/class in MMO's too much, but could you elaborate on that issue? it might help define some of the issues a bit better
I'm wondering about a shareware model re-emerging via 3rd party DLC modding, where individuals who mod for a living (and thus have the constructive power they just don't have otherwise due to time constraints) take some of their work and showcase it as a free mod, or just a different thing altogether as a form of advertising themselves/self directed artistic whim realizations - this would keep ties between the modding community when some people move on up, and also at some point allow people to jump back and forth between projects based on money and projects for pure interest/whims