Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[mcguffin]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

@SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal. Edited April 28, 2015 by mcguffin

[WightMage]

In response to post #24755029.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

I will vote against ANY kind of hierarchal system on any mod database anywhere.

[frostsmith]

Such a senseless battle. It's too late to even go back to what we were. Money popped it's head in and now the community is largely divided. Entitlement. Greedy. Whatever. Both sides acted like children, grabbing the pants of Valve and Bethesda and asking for them to listen to their side. The majority was heard and now the side that agreed with paid mods are even more pissed. Yet, that side will still download free mods and the ones that were free(if put back online). Just like the side against paid mods will continue to say modders should get paid a bigger cut, but still not donate. Both sides are acting like entitled, greedy, babies. Modders should know that the community makes their mods popular, which in hand was big enough to catch the eye of a company like Bethesda and Valve ... also a thanks to Nexus. Users should know that it's the mods that keep your game alive. Bethesda quit patching, but the modders kept working and bringing in bugfixes.

 

What am I getting at? I don't know. A part of me still believe mods should be free, but that's because it's ingrained into my brain for being free for so long. I've moved myself to the middle and also believe modders should get money in one way or another. It's just crappy to see on Steam, since it's just a big company that it looks like we are selling our souls for extra content Bethesda didn't even work on. Of course, they did create the game and tools for said modders to even get themselves off the ground. So I guess they should get a percentage?

 

Oh well, Valve got rid of it. Yet, the modders are not pissed at them when they could've easily kept going with paid mods.

 

Ugh. I don't know. It's such an ugly situation that it put some cracks into the modding community.

Edited April 28, 2015 by frostsmith

[Azradun]

In response to post #24754399.

foster xbl wrote:

So he should be able to reach to our hard drives and remove content from them every time he is upset about something? :P

That's not an extremely petty and childish thing to do at all.

[njits]

In response to post #24750659. #24751234, #24751479, #24751989, #24752184, #24752194, #24752214, #24752369, #24752499, #24752619, #24752624, #24752694, #24752819, #24752834, #24752854, #24752944, #24753079, #24753134, #24753249, #24755354, #24755674 are all replies on the same post.

njits wrote:

tmtapani wrote: Really? I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all. But come on. They have no RIGHT to get anything for it unless they sell it in a free market. No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not. Unless someone hired them to do it. THEN they would have a right to get compensated. But would that still be modding (hobby) or a job I wonder? Different things in many ways.

njits wrote: you're literally contradicting yourself

"I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all..."

"No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not."

What does that even mean? They have as much right to ask for compensation for their work as people that make effing hats for TF2. Unless someone hired them to do it? What? Are you saying there is no such thing as self employment?

Modding already *is* a job, an unpaid one.

tmtapani wrote: @njits
Way to take things out of context. How am I contradicting myself? If you're going to quote, at least quote the whole thing. And no, no modder has the right for compensation unless they're hired to do it or selling their product in a free market. You can't make something no one asked for and feel that you've got a RIGHT to get compensation for it. The world doesn't work like that. You can't just invent a job for yourself and throw a tantrum when no one wants to give you money for it.

Isvenah wrote: And now you are beeing just as unfair as the part of the players you despise.

Must have missed all the "I think the modders should be compensated (if they feel they should be, or whatever works for you), BUT: (here insert a long list of why Bethesda/Valve solution is awful). And I'm not opting here for "either donations or nothing at all". If someone is set on selling it, go right ahead. But that makes the relation modder - customer much more difficult, since the customer is not just a greedy player. In this glorious capitalism customer has rights.

First rule of dealing with a group of people, buddy: don't generalise.

Azulyn wrote: lol modding was a hobby
kinda miss the simple ol' days of morrowind

njits wrote: Actually, you CAN. And it is up to the consumer to determine if they believe it is worth their money or not.

And give a tantrum? Are you shitting me? You think modders gave a tantrum? Go ask about Chesko's death threat filled inbox.

Who's hiring musicians? Who's hiring artists? Who's hiring entrepreneurs? Your argument that you can only get payed when someone hires you is ridiculous.

njits wrote: "as the *part* of the players you despise."

"don't generalise."

So first you're pointing out that I'm upset with a *portion* of this community but then you go out of your way to say I'm generalizing? OF COURSE it's not as straight forward as putting a price point on a mod and calling it a day. I actually pointed that out in my original post. But the act of asking for compensation and getting payed for modifications is valid and is a choice on the part of the creator that has to exist. I can't blame any modder from pulling their work from Nexus now. Having people now proclaim that "modding is a hobby, it should always be free!" etc is wrong. You cannot dictate what modders are or aren't, that is up to them. They want to ask for money for their mods? More power to them.

It's "generalize" btw.

tmtapani wrote: Oh ffs. Njits, that was the whole point. If you want money, you have to sell a product. A product that people want to buy and pay for. Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art? Or mods in this matter. The product has to have a market and people willing to pay for it. You don't just get to have anything by default.

UberSmaug wrote: Say I make a painting no one asked me to make. but I take it down to the street fair put a price tag on it. Someone walks by and sees it and really likes it and wants to hang it in his house. But he doesn't want to pay for it because he didn't ask me to make it. He tells me I don't have a right to ask money for it because painting is just a hobby. How is this not completely rude and disrespectful.

njits wrote: "Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art?|

What the hell does that even mean? Are you serious? That's how the world works! You pay for admission to a concert, pay for Spotify, pay for iTunes. And you GET THE PRODUCT.

SahKuh wrote: Why are you putting a price tag on it when no one else has done so in the past years?

njits wrote: Why are you asking why he wants to make a living off of his hobby? Is that a difficult question for you? is that a hard concept to grasp? How do you think movies, theater, paintings, ANYTHING artistic became a "market" ? Because the artists started asking compensation for their work, because they deemed it worthy of compensation.

They have the RIGHT to do that, and it is your RIGHT to say. "Nah, that's not worth my money."

Isvenah wrote: I'm not a native speaker, but I don't think that should matter here, does it? Sorry for mangling English, if that brings you comfort.

Secondly, I pointed out that it is only a part you despise. You wrote "This community has showed it's true face these past couple of weeks." by which (I'm guessing) you meant a group full of hateful, entitled people. But as I wrote, it's a part of them. I don't expect anyone to check if that's a bigger or smaller half... um... part, but they obviously make so much more noise then the others. Enough to get them noticed. There is also this part which doesn't give a damn, becouse they are busy playing, or the part that is busy at work, or every other part of this so called group.

In case it's hard to tell, it's not some kind of attack on your person. I just belive that there is time and place for scolding, and then there is the internet. Where trolls roam free and modders are oppressed. What is wrong if you ask me.

tmtapani wrote: @ Ubersmaug

That's selling your product. If someone wants it, they pay for it. That's how the market works. The customer isn't forced to buy the painting just because you made one.

@ Njits

And the same goes for music and other things as well. The fact that someone makes something doesn't mean I'm obligated to pay for it. Unless I want the product. But there is no point in arguing about that with you, is there? I think I'm done with this.

njits wrote: You're somehow thinking that I'm arguing that when someone asks money for something you HAVE to pay for it. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying, is that person HAS to have the OPTION of asking money for his work. Whether YOU want to or not is an entirely DIFFERENT matter.

I don't think I can make this any clearer.

tmtapani wrote: @Njits

Alright then, it seems like we finally agree on those things. A good day to you as well.

UberSmaug wrote: So someone else come along. He likes it too. Says he will give me 10 bucks for it. Now the first guy starts throwing a fit. "NO NO NO NO NO you cant do that NOooooooo. I wont allow it." Starts kicking stuff over threatening to hurt people. So bad that they shut the whole fair down. How is that acceptable.

njits wrote: No problem, good day sir.

mljh11 wrote: Quote @njits:
"People have the RIGHT to ask for compensation for their work."

Not when it comes to modding. Not by a long shot.

Are you forgetting that it was only up until a few days ago that people DIDN'T have any rights to make money off of Skyrim mods?

As was the case with The Sims, if people didn't get express legal permission to sell derivative works (which is what mods are commonly thought to be) for money, the developers / publishers of the game can shut them down.

Just so we're clear: Modders have NO legal right to monetary compensation for mods unless expressly given permission by the original devs. So, getting compensated for work (to use your phrasing) is very much the exception rather than the norm in the modding world.

You might be tempted to say that my point above is moot, since Bethesda did give modders permission to sell their mods, therefore Skyrim modders did have rights. But you'd be wrong, at least on one count... because Beth and Valve did not sort out legal grey areas that would've proven to be stumbling blocks to this, like for example if a paid mod required assets from another mod for promised features (see Chesko's fishing mod). Because such a situation has - to my knowledge - never been contested in a court of law, I don't think anyone can say for certain whether the first mod author really does have full legal rights to any compensation at all. And the fact is that a whole bunch of Skyrim mods absolutely require other mods in order to function properly, so if anyone wants to loudly proclaim that mod authors definitely have rights to compensation, this is a hurdle they have to cross first.

Barihawk wrote: While I have not modded for Skyrim, I did create content for Star Trek: Legacy as part of a mod team and made individual mods for Bridge Commander and am known in those communities. What I created, I created with absolutely no expectation of compensation. I created my mods because it was something I wanted for my gameplay and then I shared those creations with others.

I disagree with the "right" of modders to demand compensation. The entire point of modding is that it is a hobby. And if it ceases to be a hobby, then it is work. And you should be compensated for doing work...which is why you type up a resume and go out and seek employment.

Modding is like building a cabinet in your garage or painting models. It's supposed to be fun, and you can share what you've created with others to appreciate and enjoy.

But I'm old school. Now it's all about reputation. Where if there's an inkling of drama a mod author (who says they are doing it for the community) will withdraw all their work in a hissy fit. Back on Filefront if I had drama with mods (which I did and was actually banned for over a month until I appealed to corporate) I still kept all my works up. It seems like people do modding for reputation rather than enjoyment. I read comments or FAQs and it's like modders feel that the work is a second job. It shouldn't be.

But monetization of mods is something I just can't agree with. I'd love to have gotten a cut of my work, but that is not why I did it. It's also something I didn't expect to get.

So in summary: If modding to a modder is anything but a hobby, they might need to step back and re-evaulate their priorites. If you are so talented that you feel that compensation is needed, do what others have and start up a game and sell it. Others have and it will look good on resumes for actual games developers.

So what you're saying is they DO have the right to sell their mods but it's legally a lot more complicated than other games?

Here's a quote from my original post:

"Legally it's complicated and the process for creating and setting up a platform for payed mods requires more thought than what Bethesda and Valve did."

Again, there are two different arguments going on here.

A) Modders have every right to ask for compensation for their work as any other artist does.

B) How does this all legally even work?

Valve and Bethesda kinda didn't put a lot of thought into B and just hoped it would work, it failed miserably though because of the exact reasons you just explained. That still doesn't change the fact that modders have every right to ask for compensation. And I've still not seen a single argument against that fact.



Edited April 28, 2015 by njits

[Barihawk]

In response to post #24750659. #24751234, #24751479, #24751989, #24752184, #24752194, #24752214, #24752369, #24752499, #24752619, #24752624, #24752694, #24752819, #24752834, #24752854, #24752944, #24753079, #24753134, #24753249, #24755354, #24755649 are all replies on the same post.

njits wrote:

tmtapani wrote: Really? I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all. But come on. They have no RIGHT to get anything for it unless they sell it in a free market. No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not. Unless someone hired them to do it. THEN they would have a right to get compensated. But would that still be modding (hobby) or a job I wonder? Different things in many ways.

njits wrote: you're literally contradicting yourself

"I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all..."

"No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not."

What does that even mean? They have as much right to ask for compensation for their work as people that make effing hats for TF2. Unless someone hired them to do it? What? Are you saying there is no such thing as self employment?

Modding already *is* a job, an unpaid one.

tmtapani wrote: @njits
Way to take things out of context. How am I contradicting myself? If you're going to quote, at least quote the whole thing. And no, no modder has the right for compensation unless they're hired to do it or selling their product in a free market. You can't make something no one asked for and feel that you've got a RIGHT to get compensation for it. The world doesn't work like that. You can't just invent a job for yourself and throw a tantrum when no one wants to give you money for it.

Isvenah wrote: And now you are beeing just as unfair as the part of the players you despise.

Must have missed all the "I think the modders should be compensated (if they feel they should be, or whatever works for you), BUT: (here insert a long list of why Bethesda/Valve solution is awful). And I'm not opting here for "either donations or nothing at all". If someone is set on selling it, go right ahead. But that makes the relation modder - customer much more difficult, since the customer is not just a greedy player. In this glorious capitalism customer has rights.

First rule of dealing with a group of people, buddy: don't generalise.

Azulyn wrote: lol modding was a hobby
kinda miss the simple ol' days of morrowind

njits wrote: Actually, you CAN. And it is up to the consumer to determine if they believe it is worth their money or not.

And give a tantrum? Are you shitting me? You think modders gave a tantrum? Go ask about Chesko's death threat filled inbox.

Who's hiring musicians? Who's hiring artists? Who's hiring entrepreneurs? Your argument that you can only get payed when someone hires you is ridiculous.

njits wrote: "as the *part* of the players you despise."

"don't generalise."

So first you're pointing out that I'm upset with a *portion* of this community but then you go out of your way to say I'm generalizing? OF COURSE it's not as straight forward as putting a price point on a mod and calling it a day. I actually pointed that out in my original post. But the act of asking for compensation and getting payed for modifications is valid and is a choice on the part of the creator that has to exist. I can't blame any modder from pulling their work from Nexus now. Having people now proclaim that "modding is a hobby, it should always be free!" etc is wrong. You cannot dictate what modders are or aren't, that is up to them. They want to ask for money for their mods? More power to them.

It's "generalize" btw.

tmtapani wrote: Oh ffs. Njits, that was the whole point. If you want money, you have to sell a product. A product that people want to buy and pay for. Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art? Or mods in this matter. The product has to have a market and people willing to pay for it. You don't just get to have anything by default.

UberSmaug wrote: Say I make a painting no one asked me to make. but I take it down to the street fair put a price tag on it. Someone walks by and sees it and really likes it and wants to hang it in his house. But he doesn't want to pay for it because he didn't ask me to make it. He tells me I don't have a right to ask money for it because painting is just a hobby. How is this not completely rude and disrespectful.

njits wrote: "Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art?|

What the hell does that even mean? Are you serious? That's how the world works! You pay for admission to a concert, pay for Spotify, pay for iTunes. And you GET THE PRODUCT.

SahKuh wrote: Why are you putting a price tag on it when no one else has done so in the past years?

njits wrote: Why are you asking why he wants to make a living off of his hobby? Is that a difficult question for you? is that a hard concept to grasp? How do you think movies, theater, paintings, ANYTHING artistic became a "market" ? Because the artists started asking compensation for their work, because they deemed it worthy of compensation.

They have the RIGHT to do that, and it is your RIGHT to say. "Nah, that's not worth my money."

Isvenah wrote: I'm not a native speaker, but I don't think that should matter here, does it? Sorry for mangling English, if that brings you comfort.

Secondly, I pointed out that it is only a part you despise. You wrote "This community has showed it's true face these past couple of weeks." by which (I'm guessing) you meant a group full of hateful, entitled people. But as I wrote, it's a part of them. I don't expect anyone to check if that's a bigger or smaller half... um... part, but they obviously make so much more noise then the others. Enough to get them noticed. There is also this part which doesn't give a damn, becouse they are busy playing, or the part that is busy at work, or every other part of this so called group.

In case it's hard to tell, it's not some kind of attack on your person. I just belive that there is time and place for scolding, and then there is the internet. Where trolls roam free and modders are oppressed. What is wrong if you ask me.

tmtapani wrote: @ Ubersmaug

That's selling your product. If someone wants it, they pay for it. That's how the market works. The customer isn't forced to buy the painting just because you made one.

@ Njits

And the same goes for music and other things as well. The fact that someone makes something doesn't mean I'm obligated to pay for it. Unless I want the product. But there is no point in arguing about that with you, is there? I think I'm done with this.

njits wrote: You're somehow thinking that I'm arguing that when someone asks money for something you HAVE to pay for it. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying, is that person HAS to have the OPTION of asking money for his work. Whether YOU want to or not is an entirely DIFFERENT matter.

I don't think I can make this any clearer.

tmtapani wrote: @Njits

Alright then, it seems like we finally agree on those things. A good day to you as well.

UberSmaug wrote: So someone else come along. He likes it too. Says he will give me 10 bucks for it. Now the first guy starts throwing a fit. "NO NO NO NO NO you cant do that NOooooooo. I wont allow it." Starts kicking stuff over threatening to hurt people. So bad that they shut the whole fair down. How is that acceptable.

njits wrote: No problem, good day sir.

mljh11 wrote: Quote @njits:
"People have the RIGHT to ask for compensation for their work."

Not when it comes to modding. Not by a long shot.

Are you forgetting that it was only up until a few days ago that people DIDN'T have any rights to make money off of Skyrim mods?

As was the case with The Sims, if people didn't get express legal permission to sell derivative works (which is what mods are commonly thought to be) for money, the developers / publishers of the game can shut them down.

Just so we're clear: Modders have NO legal right to monetary compensation for mods unless expressly given permission by the original devs. So, getting compensated for work (to use your phrasing) is very much the exception rather than the norm in the modding world.

You might be tempted to say that my point above is moot, since Bethesda did give modders permission to sell their mods, therefore Skyrim modders did have rights. But you'd be wrong, at least on one count... because Beth and Valve did not sort out legal grey areas that would've proven to be stumbling blocks to this, like for example if a paid mod required assets from another mod for promised features (see Chesko's fishing mod). Because such a situation has - to my knowledge - never been contested in a court of law, I don't think anyone can say for certain whether the first mod author really does have full legal rights to any compensation at all. And the fact is that a whole bunch of Skyrim mods absolutely require other mods in order to function properly, so if anyone wants to loudly proclaim that mod authors definitely have rights to compensation, this is a hurdle they have to cross first.

njits wrote: So what you're saying is they DO have the right to sell their mods but it's legally a lot more complicated than other games?

Here's a quote from my original post:

"Legally it's complicated and the process for creating and setting up a platform for payed mods requires more thought than what Bethesda and Valve did."

Again, there are two different arguments going on here.

A) Modders have every right to ask for compensation for their work as any other artist does.

B) How does this all legally even work?

Valve and Bethesda kinda didn't put a lot of thought into B and just hoped it would work, it failed misearble though because of the exact reasons you just explained. That still doesn't change the fact that modders have every right to ask for compensation. And I've still not seen a single argument against that fact.

While I have not modded for Skyrim, I did create content for Star Trek: Legacy as part of a mod team and made individual mods for Bridge Commander and am known in those communities. What I created, I created with absolutely no expectation of compensation. I created my mods because it was something I wanted for my gameplay and then I shared those creations with others.

I disagree with the "right" of modders to demand compensation. The entire point of modding is that it is a hobby. And if it ceases to be a hobby, then it is work. And you should be compensated for doing work...which is why you type up a resume and go out and seek employment.

Modding is like building a cabinet in your garage or painting models. It's supposed to be fun, and you can share what you've created with others to appreciate and enjoy.

But I'm old school. Now it's all about reputation. Where if there's an inkling of drama a mod author (who says they are doing it for the community) will withdraw all their work in a hissy fit. Back on Filefront if I had drama with mods (which I did and was actually banned for over a month until I appealed to corporate) I still kept all my works up. It seems like people do modding for reputation rather than enjoyment. I read comments or FAQs and it's like modders feel that the work is a second job. It shouldn't be.

But monetization of mods is something I just can't agree with. I'd love to have gotten a cut of my work, but that is not why I did it. It's also something I didn't expect to get.

So in summary: If modding to a modder is anything but a hobby, they might need to step back and re-evaulate their priorites. If you are so talented that you feel that compensation is needed, do what others have and start up a game and sell it. Others have and it will look good on resumes for actual games developers.

[Azradun]

In response to post #24755029. #24755484 is also a reply to the same post.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

WightMage wrote: I will vote against ANY kind of hierarchal system on any mod database anywhere.

They had so many downloads and endorsements that they were personaly approched by Valve and Bethesda to take part in their clandestine operation. Do you think, who gave them those downloads and endorsements? The "entitled" people of the community did. Sure they does great work (albeit I personally don't like SkyUI).

Would I pay 1$ for their work? Yes I would. Would I pay 4$, including 3$ for Bethesda and Valve? No way in hell.

I'll prove it next week when I'll get my salary - I'll donate to my favourite authors. Edited April 28, 2015 by Azradun

[Altamhyr]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but cańt understand you...

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24750659. #24751234, #24751479, #24751989, #24752184, #24752194, #24752214, #24752369, #24752499, #24752619, #24752624, #24752694, #24752819, #24752834, #24752854, #24752944, #24753079, #24753134, #24753249, #24755354, #24755649, #24755674 are all replies on the same post.

njits wrote:

tmtapani wrote: Really? I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all. But come on. They have no RIGHT to get anything for it unless they sell it in a free market. No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not. Unless someone hired them to do it. THEN they would have a right to get compensated. But would that still be modding (hobby) or a job I wonder? Different things in many ways.

njits wrote: you're literally contradicting yourself

"I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all..."

"No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not."

What does that even mean? They have as much right to ask for compensation for their work as people that make effing hats for TF2. Unless someone hired them to do it? What? Are you saying there is no such thing as self employment?

Modding already *is* a job, an unpaid one.

tmtapani wrote: @njits
Way to take things out of context. How am I contradicting myself? If you're going to quote, at least quote the whole thing. And no, no modder has the right for compensation unless they're hired to do it or selling their product in a free market. You can't make something no one asked for and feel that you've got a RIGHT to get compensation for it. The world doesn't work like that. You can't just invent a job for yourself and throw a tantrum when no one wants to give you money for it.

Isvenah wrote: And now you are beeing just as unfair as the part of the players you despise.

Must have missed all the "I think the modders should be compensated (if they feel they should be, or whatever works for you), BUT: (here insert a long list of why Bethesda/Valve solution is awful). And I'm not opting here for "either donations or nothing at all". If someone is set on selling it, go right ahead. But that makes the relation modder - customer much more difficult, since the customer is not just a greedy player. In this glorious capitalism customer has rights.

First rule of dealing with a group of people, buddy: don't generalise.

Azulyn wrote: lol modding was a hobby
kinda miss the simple ol' days of morrowind

njits wrote: Actually, you CAN. And it is up to the consumer to determine if they believe it is worth their money or not.

And give a tantrum? Are you shitting me? You think modders gave a tantrum? Go ask about Chesko's death threat filled inbox.

Who's hiring musicians? Who's hiring artists? Who's hiring entrepreneurs? Your argument that you can only get payed when someone hires you is ridiculous.

njits wrote: "as the *part* of the players you despise."

"don't generalise."

So first you're pointing out that I'm upset with a *portion* of this community but then you go out of your way to say I'm generalizing? OF COURSE it's not as straight forward as putting a price point on a mod and calling it a day. I actually pointed that out in my original post. But the act of asking for compensation and getting payed for modifications is valid and is a choice on the part of the creator that has to exist. I can't blame any modder from pulling their work from Nexus now. Having people now proclaim that "modding is a hobby, it should always be free!" etc is wrong. You cannot dictate what modders are or aren't, that is up to them. They want to ask for money for their mods? More power to them.

It's "generalize" btw.

tmtapani wrote: Oh ffs. Njits, that was the whole point. If you want money, you have to sell a product. A product that people want to buy and pay for. Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art? Or mods in this matter. The product has to have a market and people willing to pay for it. You don't just get to have anything by default.

UberSmaug wrote: Say I make a painting no one asked me to make. but I take it down to the street fair put a price tag on it. Someone walks by and sees it and really likes it and wants to hang it in his house. But he doesn't want to pay for it because he didn't ask me to make it. He tells me I don't have a right to ask money for it because painting is just a hobby. How is this not completely rude and disrespectful.

njits wrote: "Why should you give money to a musician or an artist JUST BECAUSE they make music and art?|

What the hell does that even mean? Are you serious? That's how the world works! You pay for admission to a concert, pay for Spotify, pay for iTunes. And you GET THE PRODUCT.

SahKuh wrote: Why are you putting a price tag on it when no one else has done so in the past years?

njits wrote: Why are you asking why he wants to make a living off of his hobby? Is that a difficult question for you? is that a hard concept to grasp? How do you think movies, theater, paintings, ANYTHING artistic became a "market" ? Because the artists started asking compensation for their work, because they deemed it worthy of compensation.

They have the RIGHT to do that, and it is your RIGHT to say. "Nah, that's not worth my money."

Isvenah wrote: I'm not a native speaker, but I don't think that should matter here, does it? Sorry for mangling English, if that brings you comfort.

Secondly, I pointed out that it is only a part you despise. You wrote "This community has showed it's true face these past couple of weeks." by which (I'm guessing) you meant a group full of hateful, entitled people. But as I wrote, it's a part of them. I don't expect anyone to check if that's a bigger or smaller half... um... part, but they obviously make so much more noise then the others. Enough to get them noticed. There is also this part which doesn't give a damn, becouse they are busy playing, or the part that is busy at work, or every other part of this so called group.

In case it's hard to tell, it's not some kind of attack on your person. I just belive that there is time and place for scolding, and then there is the internet. Where trolls roam free and modders are oppressed. What is wrong if you ask me.

tmtapani wrote: @ Ubersmaug

That's selling your product. If someone wants it, they pay for it. That's how the market works. The customer isn't forced to buy the painting just because you made one.

@ Njits

And the same goes for music and other things as well. The fact that someone makes something doesn't mean I'm obligated to pay for it. Unless I want the product. But there is no point in arguing about that with you, is there? I think I'm done with this.

njits wrote: You're somehow thinking that I'm arguing that when someone asks money for something you HAVE to pay for it. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying, is that person HAS to have the OPTION of asking money for his work. Whether YOU want to or not is an entirely DIFFERENT matter.

I don't think I can make this any clearer.

tmtapani wrote: @Njits

Alright then, it seems like we finally agree on those things. A good day to you as well.

UberSmaug wrote: So someone else come along. He likes it too. Says he will give me 10 bucks for it. Now the first guy starts throwing a fit. "NO NO NO NO NO you cant do that NOooooooo. I wont allow it." Starts kicking stuff over threatening to hurt people. So bad that they shut the whole fair down. How is that acceptable.

njits wrote: No problem, good day sir.

mljh11 wrote: Quote @njits:
"People have the RIGHT to ask for compensation for their work."

Not when it comes to modding. Not by a long shot.

Are you forgetting that it was only up until a few days ago that people DIDN'T have any rights to make money off of Skyrim mods?

As was the case with The Sims, if people didn't get express legal permission to sell derivative works (which is what mods are commonly thought to be) for money, the developers / publishers of the game can shut them down.

Just so we're clear: Modders have NO legal right to monetary compensation for mods unless expressly given permission by the original devs. So, getting compensated for work (to use your phrasing) is very much the exception rather than the norm in the modding world.

You might be tempted to say that my point above is moot, since Bethesda did give modders permission to sell their mods, therefore Skyrim modders did have rights. But you'd be wrong, at least on one count... because Beth and Valve did not sort out legal grey areas that would've proven to be stumbling blocks to this, like for example if a paid mod required assets from another mod for promised features (see Chesko's fishing mod). Because such a situation has - to my knowledge - never been contested in a court of law, I don't think anyone can say for certain whether the first mod author really does have full legal rights to any compensation at all. And the fact is that a whole bunch of Skyrim mods absolutely require other mods in order to function properly, so if anyone wants to loudly proclaim that mod authors definitely have rights to compensation, this is a hurdle they have to cross first.

njits wrote: So what you're saying is they DO have the right to sell their mods but it's legally a lot more complicated than other games?

Here's a quote from my original post:

"Legally it's complicated and the process for creating and setting up a platform for payed mods requires more thought than what Bethesda and Valve did."

Again, there are two different arguments going on here.

A) Modders have every right to ask for compensation for their work as any other artist does.

B) How does this all legally even work?

Valve and Bethesda kinda didn't put a lot of thought into B and just hoped it would work, it failed miserably though because of the exact reasons you just explained. That still doesn't change the fact that modders have every right to ask for compensation. And I've still not seen a single argument against that fact.

Barihawk wrote: While I have not modded for Skyrim, I did create content for Star Trek: Legacy as part of a mod team and made individual mods for Bridge Commander and am known in those communities. What I created, I created with absolutely no expectation of compensation. I created my mods because it was something I wanted for my gameplay and then I shared those creations with others.

I disagree with the "right" of modders to demand compensation. The entire point of modding is that it is a hobby. And if it ceases to be a hobby, then it is work. And you should be compensated for doing work...which is why you type up a resume and go out and seek employment.

Modding is like building a cabinet in your garage or painting models. It's supposed to be fun, and you can share what you've created with others to appreciate and enjoy.

But I'm old school. Now it's all about reputation. Where if there's an inkling of drama a mod author (who says they are doing it for the community) will withdraw all their work in a hissy fit. Back on Filefront if I had drama with mods (which I did and was actually banned for over a month until I appealed to corporate) I still kept all my works up. It seems like people do modding for reputation rather than enjoyment. I read comments or FAQs and it's like modders feel that the work is a second job. It shouldn't be.

But monetization of mods is something I just can't agree with. I'd love to have gotten a cut of my work, but that is not why I did it. It's also something I didn't expect to get.

So in summary: If modding to a modder is anything but a hobby, they might need to step back and re-evaulate their priorites. If you are so talented that you feel that compensation is needed, do what others have and start up a game and sell it. Others have and it will look good on resumes for actual games developers.

Might I add that it is personal choice whether you upload files.

[donsolidad]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but cańt understand you...

@mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations. Edited April 28, 2015 by donsolidad