Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[x9fallen]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704, #24755774, #24755999, #24756039, #24756394, #24756489, #24756599, #24756669, #24756944, #24757404, #24757709, #24757794, #24757819, #24757959, #24758109, #24758244, #24758549, #24758604, #24758779, #24758789, #24759069, #24760799, #24760824, #24765454, #24765899, #24766564, #24766884, #24767039, #24767164, #24769074, #24769604, #24770129, #24770469, #24770524, #24770899, #24771494, #24771584, #24771729, #24771929, #24772554, #24773334, #24811954, #24812669, #24812944, #24813194, #24813974, #24820479, #24820594, #24839454, #24839929, #24840029 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote: Let's talk about the other side of the Community:

Falskaar: 886044 unique downloads. 58920 endorsements ~ 10%
Wyrmstooth: 397609 unique downloads. 26617 endorsements ~ 10%
Lanterns of Skyrim: 654987 unique downloads. 27573 endorsements ~ 5%
SkyUI: 4497856 unique downloads. 273808 endorsements ~ 5%
A Quality World Map and Solstheim Map: 2605841 unique downloads. 157074 endorsements ~ 5%
Immersive armors: 2390661 unique downloads. 146673 endorsements ~ 5%

...
...
...

Could may I say that the (big) other side of the Community is simply ungrateful? And don't tell me that maybe the other 90-95% users didn't liked the mod. That percentage seems to be costant.

We have all free mods again (which I'm glad), but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.
I always appreciated who gave me an endorsements and/or vote plus explaining his own feedbacks, but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f*#@ing word.

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but cańt understand you...

donsolidad wrote: @mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

The only thing those 10 percents show is that the endorsement system is inadequate as a praise measurement, and is not something you should use as a base for your argument.

sdupp wrote: @ mannygt Agree with your post, but i don't think it was the only reason for some modders to sell mods as a greedy modder.

caffeinatedNetling wrote: Regarding the protest mod having lots of endorsements: Get people emotionally involved with the process of making the mod noticed, and of freaking course they're going to endorse.

macintroll wrote: It's just show that 90% of users are just leechers ^^

caffeinatedNetling wrote: I typically have "modding sessions" that literally last for days, going straight from vanilla to the setup I'll play through the following months (without even so much as updating anything, I lost too many saves already).
If I could endorse the mods I download in these sessions when I have them open, I would, but by the time the countdown before the endorsements are enabled reaches zero, I can't even remember what I have downloaded anymore.

EDIT: I went to my profile to actually look at what I have endorsed and it's pretty hilarious. 90% of my endorsements have been made from the download pop-up, on the same day during my last "modding rush".

sunshinenbrick wrote: This might be very unpopular but could a ratio counter between downloads and endorsements have any help in this particular situation. Later on when a proper well thought out and unexploitative polite paying system is eventually introduced (because it more than likely will) it could be expanded to that as well as a form of quality control.

The way it works, well it gives people a kinda nudge if they are deemed to be abusing the system. A better thought out version of how Steam tried to battle the stealing mod refund situation.

Would not be surprised if this wasn't just a big data collection exercise.

MacAban wrote: @ caffeinatedNetling

Account options > Download History, if you want to correct that. You can even endorse from there.

skinnytecboy wrote: This comment started very nicely.. actually put a smile on my face. I thought to myself "Ah finally they're all playing nicely". Let me dream a little more please :)

P.s. I for one enjoy making mods and playing mods and my motives are purely personal. However, it's always nice to know that people like what you do. Its nice to feel approval even if it isn't asked for.

So spread some love and hit those endorsement buttons my fine furry friends :)

myrrdin35 wrote: With everything that has happened, the very thing you bring up has been on my mind also but in a different way. I'm a mod user, I've tried so many times to make a mod but my brain just can't wrap around that CK. I love what mod authors have brought to my gaming and many times in surprising ways. The problem is I have limited ways to give feedback to mod authors. I can hit the "Endorse" button and/or make a
post on the mod page that usually gets buried very quickly. Neither of these options is ideal for mod authors and users.

I think the Nexus needs to take some time and make the site more user friendly. Right now we have the Top 100 (useless, same mods forever), the hot files (highlights some popular new mods, but they are gone too quickly), and then files of the month (which is buried on the side of the page and not prominent). I think a couple of things can be done so more mods get some exposure and helps us the mod
users interact with you guys the makers.

One, add a review area to the mod pages. And I mean real reviews not just your mod is great or it sucks. Talk about technical stuff, if a quest mod how long did it take, if a texture pack did it look good, and so on. Also make it so we can follow reviewers. Say someone is really good and I can trust their feedback, I would love a way to follow their reviews.

Two, a mod spotlight. It can be an old mod, new one, big or small. Just something that is different, works and could be a good addition to someones game. This could definately highlight some lesser known or older mods that people never new existed.

Three, an area where mod users could upload their mod lists with notes on what kind of playthrough they are for and how well the mods work together and maybe installation notes if needed. Say I wanted a survivalist playthrough or maybe a hardcore your gonna die one or a very well put together texture overhaul. I mean how many times have you seen people say recommend me some mods, but its never that simple. This would definately give more exposure to more mod makers. Also it would give people a base to work from.

Four, Make the files of the month more prominent. There usually is a mix of different mods that people are voting for and it deserves some better screen real
estate.

There are probably many more, these are just the ones I could think of right now. I don't know if any of this is doable or not. But I do know as a mod user, it is frustrating right now trying to give proper feedback. I will say mod makers and mod users should always try to show respect for each other. I told my children when they started using the internet. Remember, the written word doesn't show your face and emotion when you are talking to someone. If you are upset or angry or frustrated, go ahead and type what you want, but don't hit the send button. Walk away for 5 minutes, cool off, think. Then come back read what you wrote and if it doesn't sound right, delete it or rewrite your point in a much calmer way. Communication is not easy to do right, so taking a little time will benefit all in the end.

stanleemojo wrote: Many of these DL's are from several countries and more than likely do not speak/read English. I've done this in the past with a Russian modding site, not able to understand a word of it, managing to obtain the mods :\

NDDragor wrote: In my opinion its laziness or just not understanding what the endorsement button means. Many people think that it wont change anything if the endorse or leave a comment but I recently uploaded my first mod and for me each endorsment or feedback which my mod gets is a signal that people are liking my mod and that I should keep up my work. Plus all feedbacks (negative and positive) are helping me to work on my mod.

I wont say that I am always leaving a comment or endorsing a file but I really try to make the authors understand that their mods are good if I enjoyed them or point out bugs and issues if there were some. I have played 34 mods until now and endorsed 26 of them. And I have to agree with others about not endorsing downloaded mods because I haven't tried them. Right now I have 45 mods on my list which I have to play.

Well... to make it short. You wont overstrain yourself by clicking on the endorsement button or writing a small comment and the author will most likely appreciate your feedback.

skinnytecboy wrote: @myrrdin35

Regarding help from the modding community, perhaps you're not looking in the right place. There are amazing forums here that are a wealth of knowledge and people willing to help unlock it's secrets. .. there's also Google ;)

I really like your review idea btw.

Primalsplit wrote: I think mannygt has the right of it here. More people should endorse mods. I admit I wasn't paying much attention with my endorsements (mainly because of the 45 minutes limit). I download a mod, test/play it and then I either be done with testing it within 10 minutes or I just play it for 1-2 hours, sometimes for 3 hours and more. I just forgot endorsing it.

I hope this will be a good lesson to all of us. We as a community should look after each other more. Personally speaking, lesson learned. I advice everyone to be more sensitive towards this subject.

MrGrymReaper wrote: @mannygt - Did you make any endorsements during the painful growth period of the Nexus by chance please?

Cause if you did or accidently clicked on the feature for the endorse/undorse during a hic-cup they may have been lost or undone accidentally. It happended to me several times in the past with my slow internet connection.

As a result I was wondering whether the admin has somewhere on the server which keeps a record of endorsements especially those which were endorsed and quickly suddenly un-endorsed.

The reason being I now there's a lot of mods to endorse and/or vote for some of which I now can't post a comment in (following the previous crisis we went through).

So if an admin could please go through the locked or hidden comment mods which I have download and endorsed to please a word of thanks. It would be much appreciated!

Dirtysocks wrote: I'm not the poster child for feedback on mods myself, I endorse the mods I use and kudos the authors I truly believe made a fantastic mod, however I do believe personally that your no. of downloads is a much more impressive way to tally your mods success, endorsements are a bonus

In any game only a fraction are active in the forums and chats as such, this does not mean for a second that the remainder do not enjoy the game, they are just less vocal about their excitement

Fowldragon wrote: how do people come to conclusions without citing the supporting evidence...

FalSkaar has over 1 million downloads according to the Author..People have commented and critiqued it and AV has made extensive revisions..but Ungrateful? You've ignored all the acclaim and the fact that Falskaar is overwhelmingly if not Universally considered ICONIC as a DLC size mod...

If I tell my kid that he needs to work on this or that, am I unloving, not proud? If His Eng teacher gives him a B- on an ESSAY should he be justified in assuming that EVERYONE hates him?

If you want to make conclusions about endorsements you might consider that POLLING people to get their opinions is a PROACTIVE method, whereas the system in place to ENDORSE mods is completely PASSIVE in its approach.

zcul wrote: Hi MannyGT,

I fully second this and your previous post. I checked the endorsement rate for some other mods - the same 5 to 10 % maximum (?????).

After installing and running a mod, it takes a minute or 2 for returning to the modder's site and just say "thanks for your work" and maybe some thoughts on it, especially if one keeps it installed, because he/she likes it. All that is a small and humble gesture in return and in comparison with the time and work a modder invested to make a mod and share it with the community to enhance and improve the game for all and - for free.
And the best, doing so as a user does hurt in any way - I tried that myself.

b6lph6gor6 wrote: I endorse every mod I like, meaning every mod that I don't uninstall immediately after testing it. If I had to estimate, I'd say I like (and endorse) about 80% of the mods I download.

Although I have to admit that I'm lazy as well. Since I can't endorse the mod immediately after trying it (I like my game to feel vanilla, so I mostly use simple, lightweight mods that don't require a long period of testing for me to determine if I like and keep using them) I often forget to endorse the files. If it weren't for the NMM, half of the mods I use would still wait for my endorsement.

Gamwich wrote: Actually, 10% is considered a very high percentage on Nexus. That's something that I've learned over my time here.

If you can crack the 10% barrier, then you've really accomplished something. ;)

meredithmiles wrote: I do creative works in another fan-based community, and the 10 percent response is a well-known ratio there as well. If you hit about 10% kudos/thanks/likes etc. of the 100% that downloaded your work, you are doing well. I've been watching the numbers for almost 15 years, and that is a solid, persistent statistic.

I've always thought it was odd, how consistent it was.

Personally, I use endorsements as an actual personal endorsement. I'm saying "I've checked this out and suggest it to others". So I try to be sure I've actually used it and it was reasonably solid. Sometimes I will give kudos as encouragement when an otherwise worthy mod I won't really use much gets panned or ignored, even if I won't use it for long myself.

One thing I want to point out to Nexus members, if I can borrow your post to do it:

There are quite a few amazingly kind and helpful people who haunt comment threads and do impromptu tech support for mods around the Nexus. Both modders and mod users owe them a debt, and I wonder about appropriate ways to express collective appreciation for them. Any ideas?

MisterGibson wrote: If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

Jack Wow wrote: Just like FavouredSoul just said:-
"Its hard enough getting people to click a button to endorse a mod, let alone get people to use a donate button to give me the 5c they would rather keep."
- Me? - 1700 endorsements so far. Best I start putting my money where my mouth is. With 3600 hours of playing Skyrim under the belt, I know how much I owe the Nexus and the modding community.

greggorypeccary wrote: A lot of people seem to want to tell other people the reasons why they should mod and what the wrong reasons are. It must be nice to know everything.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @greggorypeccary

I completely agree.

Azulyn wrote: If you want to see entitled, work a customer service job.
as someone else said, modders owe the community nothing, and the people downloading said mods owe modders nothing. If you're sick of your hobby then stop uploading your work. Easy and simple as that. Want to get paid for your work? Go into game design or get involved with a gaming company.
Better yet, just wait until the new Elder Scrolls is released. I'm sure they're going to implement a paid mod system in future installments. This was just their messy test run.
I won't bother playing future Bethesda games in that case. Sorry if that makes me sound like a cheap, entitled asshole, but I can't afford to piss away all my money just to make the base game enjoyable and bug free. Games are expensive enough as is.
There's a reason I refuse to purchase skins and other micro-transactions for the games I play. I won't even get into the compatibly/stability issues most mods bring. It's been talked about to death at this point.

arxerisdam wrote: what about we get a i dont like this mod button?

and see how popular a mod really is, that would be fair.

greggorypeccary wrote: My prediction is the end of modding as we know it. The is just no incentive any more. I think more and more modders will find outlets for their creativity and move on. The people that keep saying " if you don't like it don't do it" will get their wish. Imagine your loadorders with only official dlc's. It won't be the greed of the modders that causes this, it's the greed and apathy of the community combines with outright usery of companies that really do already profit from mods that will cause the end.

Azulyn wrote: lol melodramatic much?
people need to hush with this modding will end nonsense. Even if every single talented mod author left right now, there will always be fresh faces to fill their spot.

greggorypeccary wrote: Don't think things can't change. Change is constant. Once people don't feel appreciated they will look for it elsewhere. The more the evidence adds up that the community is largely un grateful for the work modders do the more the likelihood that they will move to something that will satisfy them in some way. Add to that the fact that others are profiting from their work but they are somehow supposed to be above all that and you are practicaly driving them away. The best you'll be able to hope for is the inexperienced modder that wants to cut his teeth. This could have been avoided if the community nurtured modders for the fruit they bore and maybe if the nexus acknowledged how well they are doing for themselves providing those mods that modders should not profit from.

dasgones wrote: I'm one of those @$$holes. I've endorsed very few mods here and have downloaded many. I honestly thought my time playing skyrim would be only a few months, but since i fell into the community i've spent more time applying mods than playing with them. i'm picky and freeloading. This whole conflict has opened my eyes, however, and i'm going to be a lot more responsible in displaying my appreciation. this goes for almost all users that know what has happened. I really am apologetic to you because i'm becoming a bit of a fan of your work. it's impressive. I think ELFX look 4 times better than RLO. Immersive Helgen is incredible and your ENB presets are pure effin' magic. I was too absorbed in pleasing my enjoyment of the game to appreciate what was actually going on to make it that way. but I recognize this now. I honestly think that the best thing to come out of the last week in our community is that we now know what we look like. While I support free mods (i'm a freeloader because i'm cheap) I realize that the work I appreciate comes at a freely offered price. I need to respect that and endorse and get more involved. This week brought a lot of people off the fence. I do believe I need to be more generous in supporting mod authors, and I'm sorry I haven't been. this is something that everyone will see a lot of in the near future.

pigtailsboy wrote: You saying the interne... I mean nexus community is ungrateful? Are you saying that peop... I mean nexus community members don't vote? Are you saying that Huma... I mean nexus members are inherently flawed?

Do you have a blanket point that could easily be applied to the larger civilization of the Human race?

Leonord wrote: I dindt even learn what endorsing means after two years of modding skyrim. Others just forget or are too lazy to do it. Thats the reason why.

Spencerbilodeau wrote: zzjay... I REALLY dig your mods. I would endorse them all day long.

Dreadpap wrote: There are plenty of mods I've downloaded multiple times, but can only endorse once.
Also just because i download a mod, it doesn't mean I'll like it, most of them I uninstall.
Your whole reasoning is based on the false belief that if you download something it means you are going to use it and just steal it for yourself.
The mods I use and enjoy I endorse and most people do the same. But that's a lot smaller group than all the downloaded mods.

Honestly your use of data in this post is so wrong and bleeds form so many wounds there is no point in countering what you were actually trying to say, but if you really want to know what the community is like check the forums. I usually post something there about the mods I download. Usually something nice.

phantompally76 wrote: Manny,

You have received more endorsements in the past month than most mod authors have received in 4 years. Why are you complaining about endorsements?

I endorse quality mods that I personally enjoy. That's as far as the social contract goes.

I'm no more obligated to endorse every mod I download than I am to pay money for them. There are simply too many mod authors with rotten attitudes, too many poor-quality mods, too many offensive/sexist/racist mods out there that shouldn't even be allowed to be hosted on this site for me to adapt a mentality that now everyone deserves endorsements just because they can't get paid.

I don't like Gray Cowl of Nocturne. I tested it, and I didn't like it. It doesn't add anything to my personal gameplay experience. I'm not about to tell people that DO like it that they're wrong, because different strokes for different folks. But I won't be putting it in my load order. Ergo, vis a vis, condordantly.....I'm not going to endorse it.

Conversely, I absolutely adore Silverfish Grotto. It's one of my very favorite player homes, and it's on my Top Five list of player homes extant. It's one of the most immersive houses to have been created for the game, and it's perfect for my tastes and sensibilities. Hence.....I have LONG since endorsed it, and would endorse it AGAIN if I could.

The point here is that just because I don't endorse a mod doesn't mean I don't appreciate the mod author. It doesn't mean I'm a jerk. It doesn't mean anything other than I didn't like that particular mod. Don't take it so personally.

Endorsements are on a mod-by-mod basis. In plain English, when a user clicks the ENDORSE button, they are endorsing the mod, not the mod author. You can argue the semantics of the dictionary definition of "endorsement" all you want to, but if you want the setup to change, then you need to request Dark0ne to put the ENDORSE button on the author's profile page rather than on individual mods....where it will be even LESS visible and LESS likely to be clicked.

I don't know where you or anyone else get off thinking it's my obligation to endorse every mod I download. I realize we live in a time where everyone is a unique snowflake, and everyone gets a participation trophy, and everyone can easily audition for American Idol and be humiliated and crushed and realize we might not be as special as the enablers surrounding us led us to believe. But I'm not about to compromise my own ethics, morality, ideals and beliefs just to make your or anyone else feel better about themselves.

Endorsements are a privilege, not a right.

Poyuma wrote: Gotta be honest, I didn't even know what endorsments meant/did. I am absoultely grateful that these mods are free and well put together so I guess I will endorse all the mods I have downloaded :)

greggorypeccary wrote: pigtailsboy

Acknowledging the fault as status quo is not a solution.

As far as endorsements go, well they are a kind of thumbs up to other users looking for a mod. They are not a thank you to the modder they are not some kind of psuedo payment. All it does is say "I think other people will like this. They do nothing for the modder at all, in fact you are not even engaging the modder by endorsing the mod.

animalwtcm wrote: I've got got at least 20 hrs in reading comments her in the past 3 days, & wow what a soap?? But i still can't stop thinkin what modders like manny will do with witcher 3 ?? Ya i now, off the wall....... just to much><><><>? Happy moddin.....

TSotP wrote: i have a simple rule for endorsements.

Did the Mod do what it said it was going to do? if Yes, Endorsed!

Musicdude132 wrote: This is where modders are showing off a nasty side.

Saying people are ungrateful for not clicking a button that many don't even know exists in the first place? Please.....

You can't be serious.

Demonica wrote: @ mannygt:

A fair point, but I think you could have used a better word than "ungrateful". Feel free to look at my profile

1,274 Endorsements

Regards

diyeath wrote: @ ramccoid or perhaps it means that the internet was in flames and galvanized the community into action.

endorsements mean exposure and popularity, downloads is generally a better indicator of how good your mod is, as are the comments people leave behind.

This is simply a math equation with variables. If you screw up a variable of course you get a skewed answer such as Manny's "the community is ungrateful".

This crap is getting stupid. Why are we fighting over things that were never an issue? Because some mod authors and some mod users were silly and did bad things? Grow up people, lol.

Lets move past this tragic event guys, enough is enough.

svanderwerf wrote: and in some areas, only 25% of eligible electorate bother to vote.

Opt-in participation will always lead to low returns, simply because people in general won't do a thing they don't have to, even if doing it is virtually effortless. It's not so much that people are ungrateful, but that there is no advantage in going back after the wait period and hitting the button.

What would be really nice, is if a mod manager could dial home with how much playtime a mod has had. Rather than the page saying that 5% of people have bothered to click a button, how nice would it be to see 10,000 downloads, 500,000 active hours.

TheFlamingRed wrote: Looking purely at statisitcs is very misleading. Know that Youtubers can have thousands of subscribers, and some of their videos only have a few hundred views. Videos with millions of views may only have a few thousand people click the Like or Don't like button (1-10% is quite normal), and even less people will subscribe to a person, despite probably watching almost every single of their videos. Its a fact that most of a fanbase is actually completely silent.

I am subscribed to Linsey Stirling, a violinist who dances a bit - I have never clicked like on her video, never once commented. To her, I am silent, not contributing. However, in her case, I bought both her albums through amazon - I have told lots of my friends about her who may one day buy her album and been to her gigs on two occassions. When I was teaching, there was one video I would show a class as I thought it had a good message within the video, and from that, one student (who was one of the students who was interested in dance anyway) inquired directly about her. This girl maybe completely inspired by her and her life changed because of this video (unlikely but... small events in childhood can effect out lives).

The point is, the silent downloaders, who are probably the majority of any fanbase, mods in this case, appreciate what you do. We may not endorce or say thank you or comment or anything like that - and maybe some may deem us as ungrateful or unworthy to have these mods, byt know that most of us who remain silent appreciate the work you do, will spread it, and get enjoyment from it. When people release things for free on the interent, be it a mod or a youtube video, I hope that knowledge alone gives the mod makers, the youtubers, some satisfaction by putting your mod out there.

kusman wrote: Sometime i miss the endorsment button because of 15 mnt delay from nexus before you can endorse a mod(and another 15mnt if you clicked earlier). This tend to make people forgot to endorse the mod author.
But i do think many ungrateful person is exist on the nexus, bad mouthing authors on their mod page because their mod is not lore friendly or the mod are simply doesn't follow their taste. And worst, using endorsement as threat againts the mod author.

CryptoSporidium wrote: Admittedly... I tend to forget to leave likes and endorsements on almost any site I use frequently. Sorry...!

x9fallen wrote: Just throwing this out there. I've donated to many modders and have only received a note of thanks from one. I'm not talking small $5 donations either. I've made several $100 donations and got no response. Does that make the modder ungrateful as well?

I will say, the one who replied received several other donations.

As someone who has donated over $1000 to modders, I was upset by the idea that a.) I would likely need to pay again for mods I had donated to and way way more importantly b.) I don't want 75% of my money going to Bethesda and Valve.

The terms of this deal were horrific (reminded me of the Nintendo "deal" for YouTubers). As Robin and other members of the community have pointed out, Valve and Bethesda put so little thought into this program it is insulting. Perhaps after a re-think and maybe actually consulting a large segment of the community, something can be put together for the future (and probably future title ie Fallout 4).

My hope in all this (and here is a pessimist being optimistic for once), is that attention has been drawn to the issue and more people will donate to modders. It is a long shot, but I feel this is what the reasonable part of the community should be pushing for. Instead we've turned inwards. There is plenty of blame to go around, but I for one, will never forget that it was Bethesda and Valve's insulting lack of understanding of the community that has ended up causing the community to turn on itself.

WightMage wrote: It's already galvanized people who have never donated before (including myself) into 1) Realizing donations were a thing, because the TOS for uploading mods is that you cannot explicitly ask for them, and 2) Actually donating. The trend just needs to be maintained- it must become part of our culture as a community.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I *heart* donations :)

All the money in the right places.. Excusing Paypal maybe, but hey its a white knuckle ride out there!

Thanks Wightmage! Keep the message going!

To be clear, I'm not mad that I didn't get a thanks for donating, I'm not entitled to a thanks. I'm just saying, it makes the donator feel really good about donating to know it is appreciated. I can't know if the modders who don't respond are ungrateful, I would highly suspect that they are grateful (unless there are modders out there literally sitting on Scrooge McDuck piles of money, which I doubt).

Anyways, let's keep the movement for raising donation awareness going!

[WightMage]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784, #24830789, #24830854, #24830894, #24830919, #24831079, #24831109, #24831114, #24831884, #24831959, #24832009, #24832024, #24832844, #24832949, #24834759, #24834909, #24835839, #24835939 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

CaladanAnduril wrote: Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is why there ALSO must be user protection. Who is to say a mod will not sold as doing something and then doing something else or just not doing it? Even mod makers use other mods. This is also assuming Bethesda tell freelance developers what shape the hole should be in in the first place... which they have notouriously been elusive about. Probably because they are figuring stuff out as they go along, like many pioneering and experimental developers do.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster, I'm afraid you don't understand how the world works in this regard. Once you sign a contract and start charging, legally, everything changes.

With this, you wouldn't be an employee for Bethesda, but a private contractor. And this is much MUCH worse. Any mod you release will have the same consumer protection as anything else--including APPs in Apple's store. You have a whole new set of responsibilities now: such as making sure your mod works in conjunction with as many other possible mods as possible. And just like an APP in the Apple store, if it ganks someone's system, YOU are legally responsible. You are also responsible for troubleshooting for people who have purchased your product, and all the headaches that come from that. You can no longer just say "download at your own risk" as you have been able to with mods you've released for free. Bethesda's hands are washed of this, as you are just a "contractor". You do all the work, deal with all the headaches, and they get most of the money.

freedom613 wrote: @Foster
One of the problems with paid mods was a precedent it setup:

Suppose a company, ElectronicSoft, wants to release day 1 DLC. They know they are going to get flak so instead they get a shell company: Ubigames to release the DLC as a paid "mod".


If they get flak, Electronicsoft can just say "Oh no, we are against Day1 DLC, but we fully support modders getting paid for their work".

As you can see, this problem is a whole lot larger than modders wanting some cash. This sets a bad precedent and for that reason must be stopped in it's tracks.


They can also do this with their DLC, cut out the time and cost running the already poor quality beta testing of DLC and just release it through their shell company as a 3rd Party DLC while reaping all the profits minus Valve's (if they don't decide to cut out the middle man) cut and have none of the accountability.


So while this program is allegedly built on good intentions (let us face it, Valve and Bethesda did this as a cash grab), much like the PATRIOT Act, there is a lot of wiggle room to put in less than favourable business practices.
=========
So yes, paywalling had to go for the greater good. The gaming industry is exploitative, and will wiggle into everything they can to make a profit. Now this does not mean that we are against modder compensation. One of the problems with this whole fiasco was the strawmen setup by both parties. Now I am not talking about donations, anyone here who believes the status quo worked is being naive at best. A system similar to Patreon, which Youtubers and Minecraft modders have been using would be a well recieved solution.

My economics professor gave me a fun quote that I will never forget "Always use the right tool for the job, never use a hammer to put in a screw if there is a screw driver near by". He meant this mostly in marketing by giving the example of using Television to advertise your company in a town of luddites, but the same can be applied here. Paywalling is using a hammer to put in a screw, when there are other tools available.

foster xbl wrote: "Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical"


If someone is stupid enough to pay their hard earned money
For a product with a clear definition of what it is or does....
Then, yeah, pretty much.
Of course these are the same people who need told coffee is hot.

lereddit wrote: You didn't even bother to read my post properly.

If you are cherrypicking arguments, at least do it less obvious

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

That coffee analogy is great. There ARE a lot of stupid consumers out there, but you know what? YOU are STILL responsible for their mess-ups. In the McDonald's analogy you alluded to, McDonald's was held responsible to the tune of I think about a million dollars.

foster xbl wrote: I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Do you support this model of business?

lereddit wrote: It won't be the lawyers of Bethesda who have to deal with that.
It would be the lawyer of the modder, because now the modder is legally responsible.
Modder tricks users into buying a mod that doesn't do what it promises?
You better bet he's getting sued for that.

"Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case."

Do you even know how lawyers work?
If you pay the lawyer enoguh, he's gonna do wahtever you want, no matter how ridiculous the case is.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

I assume you live in the United States? In most states any Cause of Action in which less than $5,000 in damages is declared goes to Small Claims court. Attorneys aren't allowed in Small Claims court (unless they are representing themselves).

What this means is people wouldn't need an attorney, and the process of suing you is much easier. I've seen neighbors sue other neighbors over a mere tree being cut down. People have sued other people over too much noise coming from their homes after a certain time (and won). People can and will sue for as little as $10. But that $10 also will include your time to go to court, bringing evidence, and trying to defend yourself. I'm not saying you WOULD get sued, but if your mod messes up someone's computer (or some other issue), they certainly have the right to sue you.

Eiries wrote:

Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?

So what you're saying is... releasing a broken mod and charging people for it is a nonissue because its too difficult to punish the mod creator?

sunshinenbrick wrote: That whole idea is messed up as it will end with people just not buying Bethesda games to begin with. Not worth the risk.

macintroll wrote: When i hear all of you with all kind of mod problems you have... i wonder how you are still able to launch your game with any CTD :D :D

foster xbl wrote: "So what you're saying is... releasing a broken mod and charging people for it is a nonissue because its too difficult to punish the mod creator? "

yes that's exactly what I'm saying..... come on...did that in any way sound like what I said?

WightMage wrote: Sir, people can sue and be sued for anything in the United States, and if a lawyer or firm thinks they can make money from a claim (regardless of how frivilous it appears) they will go after it.

Your assertion that no lawfirm would go to the trouble on the basis of laziness is optimistic at best, and hugely, hugely ignorant to how lawsuits actually work.

Case in point, the fact is law firms will be paid regardless of whether their claimant wins a case. They will still charge the claimant court fees and for their own time- it is in fact in their best interest to go after such lawsuits because if they can't collect from the defendent, they will shake down the person they were hired by.

Furthermore, Valve is not an unknown name- its damn near house hold in this industry. Do you really think that they will ignore a claim when they see the words "Valve," and "Lawsuit?" Think again.

acidzebra wrote: All this "SUED FOR YOUR MOD" talk is hilarious when you realise there have been for-pay mod communities for other products for a good long while yet "mod author sued" turns up absolutely zero relevant results. You'd think there would have been some kind of fuss over that.

Look up the Sims 2 community. That's been posted quite a few times on this news thread alone, so I'll let you take the heavy lifting.

There's also the DMCA's that hit Isoku's mods prior to the removal of the paid system to consider.

[WightMage]

In response to post #24833184. #24833224 is also a reply to the same post.

Mirrorimage wrote:

Dear Dark0ne, modders, and community.

 

I just want to say "thank you" for all the hard work you put into making great games even better over the years. Personally, I have made numerous small mods, but never released anything and mostly kept stuff for my own use. I have provided feedback for mods I love over the years, and endorsed mods now and then, but not enough as I could have. The negative backlash seen in recent events has shown me, above all, that it's easy to forget how much of an impact the slightest positive spark could have in a sea of negativity. I've been neutral when it came to paid mods, as I saw positive and negative sides to the issue. I even satisfied my curiousity to test if running paid mods would really require you to only launch the game through Steam, so, I spent money on one mod. It would be hypocritical therefore to bash either side, nor do I think that is a proper reaction.

 

After all these years, I've started to take our community and our mods for granted. No more. I've taken the time to catch up with my (substantial) list of mods I had yet to endorse. Money has been tight for years, but I have also bought a 12 month premium membership. Not a lifetime one, as servers still need maintenance next year.

 

Apologies for my long rant. Let me just say to the Nexus team, to every modder, and to every civil person contributing to this community: Thank you for everything.

Merinid wrote: yes the most valued lesson that is to be taught here is "not take community for granted"

Bumping for the Aesop that everyone needs to realize.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24833184. #24833224, #24840414 are all replies on the same post.

Mirrorimage wrote:

Dear Dark0ne, modders, and community.

 

I just want to say "thank you" for all the hard work you put into making great games even better over the years. Personally, I have made numerous small mods, but never released anything and mostly kept stuff for my own use. I have provided feedback for mods I love over the years, and endorsed mods now and then, but not enough as I could have. The negative backlash seen in recent events has shown me, above all, that it's easy to forget how much of an impact the slightest positive spark could have in a sea of negativity. I've been neutral when it came to paid mods, as I saw positive and negative sides to the issue. I even satisfied my curiousity to test if running paid mods would really require you to only launch the game through Steam, so, I spent money on one mod. It would be hypocritical therefore to bash either side, nor do I think that is a proper reaction.

 

After all these years, I've started to take our community and our mods for granted. No more. I've taken the time to catch up with my (substantial) list of mods I had yet to endorse. Money has been tight for years, but I have also bought a 12 month premium membership. Not a lifetime one, as servers still need maintenance next year.

 

Apologies for my long rant. Let me just say to the Nexus team, to every modder, and to every civil person contributing to this community: Thank you for everything.

Merinid wrote: yes the most valued lesson that is to be taught here is "not take community for granted"

WightMage wrote: Bumping for the Aesop that everyone needs to realize.

Well said. Thank YOU.

[jbvertexx]

@Dark0ne - you need to figure out how to recognize people who donate. You have "premium" and "supporter" for those who support the site. People who donate to a mod author should get recognized as well. Edited May 1, 2015 by jbvertexx

[phantompally76]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809, #24832199, #24832334, #24832364, #24833474, #24833569, #24836294, #24836444, #24838359, #24838789, #24839909 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

lereddit wrote: Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.

Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?

Marstonn wrote: lereddit you're a troll, i can comprove that with your blood sample.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit,

Rule #1 for discussing something on the internet: if someone makes a point that you can't refute or argue against, call them a "troll" or other names.

lereddit wrote: Whatever you say my friend.

I want to be a frost troll though, I#ve never liked regular trolls

Marstonn wrote: I'm a flamer, i won.

CaladanAnduril wrote: You just proven my point... if a calm and rational but opposite point of view is dropping on you, your only reaction is to curse and offend your opponent....
Delusional... I have dealt with your kind for many years and I find your kind pathetic.
That's all you could?
Injurious comments towards those who have a different point of view?

Pathetic... btw, I watched this discussion from the beginning, refraining myself from comments, but I have noticed that same names keep showing again and again with vitriolant behaviour towards those who don't agree with you... your name is one

Pitiful mind could write only pitifull comments... you "won" keep your victory flag close, you will need it in the near future

macintroll wrote: "lereddit " part of the army ? :D
Of course you did take this pseudo by "pure hazard" ... ^^

Vesuvius1745 wrote: CaladanAnduril is lecturing people on name calling, while calling them names. How droll.

Marstonn wrote: Caladan

I was just kidding man, i'm a pro paid mods, i bought 2 of them to support, i dreamed amazing dozens of falksaars coming, armors 4k texture perfect made been launched for few steam cards. But it seems the people didn't think this way.

The mods was removed, i noticed the anti paid just don't want paid mods, they will argue 1000 reasons, but is simple, they don't want pay for mod and the are afraid to lose "their" mods.

They already removed the paid mods, don't matter why, who, when, how discussions. I hope they bring paid mods back, with more QA, but if they relaunch tomorow, i'll support (buying) the mods again.

lereddit wrote: @macintroll

Of course not. Chose this name as a parody of reddit's idiocy and went with it because I couldn't think of something better.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Maybe my English is not so good like yours, but I don't make statements regarding how the others should act.

" People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community"... since then?
Since then you have the RIGHT to decide what I must do?
You are just a pathetic troll, who was so disgusting this days against those who feeded you with tons of mods for FREE so many years.
And now you have RIGHTS? Maybe in your LaLa Land ...

You and the other hatred trolls have trashed the very notion of FREE modding and very soon you will cash in the reward... but it will be a bittter one.

Sorry if my English is offending your suave ears...

lereddit wrote: Am I really being lectured about not having rights because I never created a mod?

I made a few rather bad ones for private use. Never released one. I know that modding is hard. So what?

Also, resorting to calling me and the other people trolls just shows that you are running out of arguments. Please stop, it's painful to watch

CaladanAnduril wrote: Not for me... for me IS fun fun to watch your next predictable step, trying to patronize your "opponent"

And I mopping with your kind( not particularly with you) because your kind denise MY kind to have an opinion based on OUR hard work over the time.
You are wining about quality...helo!!! wake up child, ANY free mod is provided AS IS.
No matter most of the mod authors provide updates and fixes WHEN they could, your kind is still "unhappy" not to be provided WHEN you want, in your LaLa Land you have RIGHTS... your so called rights are in fact DEMANDS, spoken on an outrageous tone.
And your KIND proved this days how low could reach human nature

And don't bother to look after my profile, rofl, I have long time ago moved my mods from Nexus.

lereddit wrote: Yeah, whatever bro. No use arguing with lunatics on the internet

Gimme some of that weed you're smoking, I wanna go to LaLa land too.
Holy s#*&#33;, at least try to speak in coherent sentences. Or use google translator

Vesuvius1745 wrote: First of all, you have no idea what I have or haven't contributed. If you've read some of my other posts, you might get an idea. But you know what? That's irrelevant.

I would never want payment for a mod I created, and this is the main reason: because, as you have said, I HAVE enjoyed all the free content that has been provided to the community for years. And you know what? So have YOU. Contributing to the community is called paying-it-forward, and every mod out there (and I don't care how individual you think your specific snowflake is), was a GROUP EFFORT--the culmination of everything and everyone who has come before you to make this possible.

Programmers who have a lot more skill than is required for a game mod have donated their efforts to bring some outstanding utilities and resources to the community (ENB, SKSE, FORE, Wyre Bash, and on and on and on). Many mods would not even function without these free resources, or would be mediocre. They gave these things to the community with no expectation of anything other than to encourage creativity, and more mods being shared with everybody. The same goes for every other mod author who has released a free mod (they have enjoyed free mods from the same community, and they are giving something back). Mod authors learn how to create mods by dissecting other mods, they borrow resources, they piggy-back on the work of others. And this is FINE. It's the nature of an "open source" community. But when you want to piggy-back on the work of others so you can make a profit from what others have allowed you to do, there is going to be a backlash.

Merinid wrote: @Vesuvius1745 man that's some true words. May i quote you? :)

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Thanks, yeah anything I have written feel free to quote.

Wolvenlight wrote: I dunno Caladan, Ves has been nice to me so far. Granted, I don't agree with his points, and yeah, I've seen him lash out at others, but I think that has more to do with everyone lashing out at everyone.

People like Phantompally on the other hand... Holy crap, that guy needed to calm down. Thankfully, he seems to have realized this as well.

As for OP, you'll find all kinds. I'm a leech who was neutral, but I find myself siding with the pro-paid mods group more often than not. The only thing I don't like about paid mod systems is how I've heard that it messed up modding communities in other games, like the Sims.

ShinMorita wrote: @ acidzebra
So i guess that because i dont interact much with the "community" as you said, and cuz im not a modder myself, im a "leech" or "troll"? Maybe im not a modder because i cant realy get the hang of it, or maybe because i simply dont have the time to be modding, has that occured to you? Or, i might not donate to modders because i dont have the means to, or maybe because my parents wont allow me to spend money on the internet... Did this occured to you? Or even, i might not interact much with the community because i might be antisocial, or even shy... Did any of this occured to you? i guess no, otherwise you wouldnt have posted this comment here.
I did not insult any modder, neither stated my opinion about paied mods anywhere else, besides this post here.
Fyi, I did agree with modders being rewarded for their work... If there's something i know about, is doing something you know you worked hard for and not get any recognition from it, it sucks badly, proly one of the worst feelings in the world.
What i didnt agree was, that valve and bethesda were getting the majority of the cut, not to mention i read a post on reddit that bethesda thretened to sue a modder for trying to sell part of his mod some time ago, and now they join valve and come forward with the idea of selling mods? Like, what the f*** man?!... It's not fair, even less fair is that modders would only see any profit of their work if they'd sold more that 100$...
Working hard for something and not getting anything just because people didnt paied more than 100$ for it? It is not fair for modders.
Before you start adressing to the "community", you might want to rethink about what you are going to say first.

You're randomly judgeing people for said interactions or files uploaded without even knowing them... What does that make you? Does that make you any better than those who raged on the modders?
You're not a judge and even if you are, this isnt a court of law.

Instead of being around throwing more wood to the fire, you should instead try to help those who raged on modders realize that modders are the very pillars of the community, and if they decided to participate on the "Paied Mods" program, they had their own reasons, and best we, as a community, can do is support them on their decision, regardless of its outcome.

UberSmaug wrote: @Vesuvius1745 This statement has implications far beyond selling mods. I've heard this before from a self proclaimed pioneer of modding. My response to you is the same.

The entirety of Human Civilization and beyond is built on the backs of those who came before. No man and no thing is an island unto themselves. You say you pioneered modding, that may be true, but you stood on the backs of those who pioneered gaming in the first place, who in turn stood on the backs of those who pioneered computers, who stood on the backs of those who pioneered the use of fire, who stood on the backs of nature itself. If your argument were held as true, no one has the right to charge for anything, not mods, not games, not iPhone apps, not food. We should all be sacrificial animals. We all exist simply to serve others. A complete communal utopia where there are no possession, no rights, and no self. Certainly some do believe that. Its called Altruism.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Uber, you are extrapolating my statements to situations that have no bearing on my argument, and are coming up with a false conclusion you then think can be shrunk back down to this issue. Your post also contains various other logical fallacies, which makes it impossible to respond to because you are arguing against points I didn't make.

UberSmaug wrote: "Mod authors learn how to create mods by dissecting other mods, they borrow resources, they piggy-back on the work of others. And this is FINE. It's the nature of an "open source" community. But when you want to piggy-back on the work of others so you can make a profit from what others have allowed you to do, there is going to be a backlash."

~Vesuvius1745 ~

Piggy-backing on the backs of others is the foundation of any society it is a fundamental aspect to the evolution of any community. It is not unique to "open source". Profit or Non

@wolverknight or whatever

The fact that I have a stronger argument than you doesn't mean that I need to "calm down".

And the fact that I've stopped wasting my energy on trying to make lost causes see reason doesn't mean that I have given up the fight.

And finally, the fact that you've purposefully name dropped me in order to fuel your sociopathic need to fan fires on the internet and draw me back into your flawed and artistically bankrupt arguement doesn't mean that I will do so.

You and everyone else who shares your hardline ignorant, self-entitled stance on for-profit amateur modding are of no further concern to me, and your ilk continuing to be sore losers on a point you yourselves don't even understand is far more damaging to the community at large than not getting paid for retexturing Alvor's apron.

And whether you like it or not, THAT is the final word. Edited May 1, 2015 by phantompally76

[retnav98]

In response to post #24838714.

Harbringe wrote:

Just so everyone knows when I said this to xbi

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works. Just thought the reasoning in her rationale had brought her to the wrong conclusion.

 

I wasn't talking about any 5$ Horse armor type argument , just that when lawyers are brought in to absolve their clients of any responsibility and leave it solely on the other party , thats when the other party should be going spidey sense up , danger danger . And in a system where one of those parties can do updates that can affect your product (mod) and you have no control over that . Its because of those lawyers that your left in a very bad situation . And thats how the world works.

 

Even though I was against this idea (many reasons I haven't even mentioned) I have also thought people who were for it have some good points , including xbi . but to be honest I think there is something much bigger going on here , much bigger , but I haven't just put it all together yet .

Many of us smell that same rat..

But I have to give it to Foster, who is still here discussing and explaining her position...while conceding some side issues, her main point as I understand it is simply that WE don't have the right to tell her or FavoredSoul or the SKYUI team or any MODDER that they can't make money from their mods.

Getting sued, fair market compensation..that's still NOT our call.

Opinions over Greed, good faith...that's just people trying to cling to a system that had NO options for modders.

And if you're a modder who would never consider charging, then that's your values and your position...It doesn't make it wrong to believe differently.

It's Their decision.

[retnav98]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934, #24835054, #24835429, #24836069, #24836109, #24836554, #24837014, #24837104, #24838089, #24838739, #24838869, #24839779 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

lereddit wrote: That's not fair at all.

Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.

And they would still have to split the profits within their team.

No....just no.

foster xbl wrote: sorry, I don't agree on this.
yes 25% sounds bad... it does
but what are my costs to make it vs Valve/Bethesda's to make/host it?
and I said "close"

retnav98 wrote: I fully support your right to sell your talents and your products...And I regret not seeing your side of the arguement better four days ago.

Valve and Bethesda say they wanted to expand the means to support Modders. Taken with the STEAM User agreement that essentially says, anything you post here is OUR PROPERTY...means there must have been a different legal agreement for a PAY modder.
Allowing you to sell your talents at 25 cents on the Dollar while being tethered to that mod and all of the potential bugs or incompatibilities doesn't seem to be equitable to ME...but its your choice... If you as the author are thorough in your work and patient with users.and people willing to pay abound...all is rosy.

But let's say the guy buying doesn't have TES5Edit Just bought his copy of Skyrim for 9.99...and is just lost.

You, who spent 9 hrs at work dealing with a distribution fowl up that would've cost you your weeks profit if not resolved, must now contend with the same idiocy you've had to with in the past...except NOW these people DEMAND your attention because they spent 49c. You lay into him like he tried to take your BIRTHDAY.

NOW you got a problem on your hands because you defamed him and he's suing for pain and suffering to the tune of $5,000.00.

Wolvenlight wrote: Perhaps it might behoove people to look into the percentage's of writers vs publishers, or singers vs labels, or farmer's vs grocers before we automatically discredit the 25, 35, 40 split as unfair... Not all of these examples apply in exact terms, but it would give us a better understanding as to how money is split among all parties.

I'd love it if mod author's got more, and personally I think Bethesda and Valve could have been a little more generous, but I can see why it was split the way it was.

lereddit wrote: @foster xbl

Wait, you think it's okay that a big project can't get any profit due to this deal while any retard who knows how to port swords from DOTA2 can grab their 25%?

You must have no idea what you are talking about.

retnav98 wrote: You know lerredit,

You're a 3 inch wart infested D1CK! Just kidding.


Actually...I'm not.

There's NO reason to degrade people. The fact that you're separated by firewalls makes you all the more pathetic.

retnav98 wrote: @Wolvenlight

I get your point to a degree..

I would question the level of liability a publisher (or any of your other examples) shares...and the percentage of cost they absorb...

I honestly cannot see that Valve maintained any more cost than they did with mods that were free...now if any of your examples involved the option of FREE books, music, food in direct competition with PAID, you might have a more cogent point.

lereddit wrote: @retnav98

Yeah no, he admitted as much as not having an idea about the details.

And the one who starts calling names is the dick here, my friend

retnav98 wrote: We're not friends..

I disagree with HER...but Her most consistent and unshakable point is one I have come to agree with...it's her choice.

I wasn't calling names..I was simply identifying ..like in Biology...Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family...

Just calling it the way I see it.

lereddit wrote: Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify name calling, champ

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I've seen people call Lereddit names. I don't recall him calling anyone names.

x9fallen wrote: Another aspect to look at is Valve's refund policy. After 24 hours, they would tell you to go pound sand. That sort of thing doesn't fly with physical goods.

That and the very real DMCA claims that were popping up on mods was set to turn the paid marketplace into an absolute train-wreck.

Also, I love Valve's one rule that they would not curate. Really Valve? Because your lack of curation has gone over big with the rest of the gaming community. Flood the market with 15 year old games that are barely functional? Sure!

Vesuvius,
And I didn't say he did either..I said he had ho reason to degrade people, he's the one who used those words.

Edited May 1, 2015 by retnav98

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24838714. #24841759 is also a reply to the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

Just so everyone knows when I said this to xbi

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works. Just thought the reasoning in her rationale had brought her to the wrong conclusion.

 

I wasn't talking about any 5$ Horse armor type argument , just that when lawyers are brought in to absolve their clients of any responsibility and leave it solely on the other party , thats when the other party should be going spidey sense up , danger danger . And in a system where one of those parties can do updates that can affect your product (mod) and you have no control over that . Its because of those lawyers that your left in a very bad situation . And thats how the world works.

 

Even though I was against this idea (many reasons I haven't even mentioned) I have also thought people who were for it have some good points , including xbi . but to be honest I think there is something much bigger going on here , much bigger , but I haven't just put it all together yet .

retnav98 wrote: Many of us smell that same rat..

But I have to give it to Foster, who is still here discussing and explaining her position...while conceding some side issues, her main point as I understand it is simply that WE don't have the right to tell her or FavoredSoul or the SKYUI team or any MODDER that they can't make money from their mods.

Getting sued, fair market compensation..that's still NOT our call.

Opinions over Greed, good faith...that's just people trying to cling to a system that had NO options for modders.

And if you're a modder who would never consider charging, then that's your values and your position...It doesn't make it wrong to believe differently.

It's Their decision.

I agree but feel I must add that Bethesda must also give all of US the option to mod for free, or for money. And the option to buy UGC or not, without detracting from the original sales pitch and intent of the game. If it says beans in a can, I do not want rotten fish in a bag.

If you can avoid interest and debt then you are bang equal and that is the key to the free world. Sorry if that is too fleeting or opinionated, but I'm back from the pub :P Edited May 1, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

[aegiltheugly]

Is there a list of the mods that have been pulled as a result of this little debacle. It would be interesting to see what the real impact has been. I would leave the names of the mod makers off the list, they have received enough grief from the less mature members as it is.