Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[BellatrixII]

In response to post #24742594. #24742759, #24742849, #24742924, #24742934, #24743009, #24743059, #24743149, #24743254, #24743299, #24743359, #24743449, #24743474, #24743514, #24743524, #24743584, #24743604, #24743624, #24743724, #24743739, #24743769, #24743774, #24743884, #24743929, #24743984, #24744049, #24744139, #24744159, #24744279, #24744479, #24744519, #24744574, #24744719, #24744789, #24744794, #24744929, #24744964, #24744989, #24745004, #24745054, #24745174, #24745279, #24745339, #24745449, #24745494, #24745729, #24745734, #24745839, #24745939, #24746154, #24746294, #24746544, #24746674, #24746704, #24746719, #24747064, #24747169, #24747379, #24747459, #24747514, #24747554, #24747774, #24747799, #24747909, #24748204, #24748329, #24748344, #24748534, #24748849, #24749024, #24749029, #24749224, #24749279, #24749419, #24750314, #24751879, #24752384, #24752494, #24752744, #24753274, #24753624, #24753979, #24754244, #24754444, #24754479, #24754484, #24754654, #24755899, #24761019, #24762099, #24764289, #24765089, #24765834 are all replies on the same post.

FavoredSoul wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: Sorry you feel that way FavoredSoul.

We'll survive with or without you.

We'll also probably be a lot more cautious with our praise and endorsements. And with our trust.

popcorn71 wrote: If your complaining about the hate being spewed on steam then why post files to the steam workshop? If Valve will not moderate their comment section and you don't like what people are saying about your mod then just don't use the workshop. Not that I'm excusing the tolls, but why put your self in a possession where you are subjected to their hate in the first place?

=== Edit ===
To clarify, I have not read ANYTHING on steam for several day. I currently have steam offline and firewalled. This all just seems too convenient to me and I don't really trust Valve right now.

Orgaya wrote: For what it's worth, I agree with you.

This whole experience has taught me that this modding community is a massive s#*! stain.

FavoredSoul wrote: Fact is, the trolls are everywhere, workshop or not. nexus sites just do a good job of throwing a cloth over it. But its still there underneath.

And you're right. I will delete all my stuff of the workshop cause it is just awful over there.

dunmermagic wrote: I'm sorry you feel that way, but most major modders were against this. If you had some trolls get on your nerves, well that sucks, and if you feel the need to take down your mods, that's your choice. But nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything. That's the way it's worked for 13 years, and it's worked out pretty well if I do say so myself.

jmenaru wrote: I agree with you 100% FavoredSoul. I never expected Bethesda to remove this just because of the negative backlash, but I guess I was wrong.

FavoredSoul wrote: @dunmermagic

"nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything"


My point entirely.

Mod-users are happy to use you and your mods while you're offering, and then just as happily ready to throw you away without second thought.

You know what that is an example of? Taking another human being for granted for your own selfish needs.

phantompally76 wrote: Bah, stop acting like you're a victim.

6 days ago, selling your mods was illegal.

Axeface wrote: I completely agree with everything you said favouredsoul. This farse has shown what this community can be, it's like a pit of vipers. One thing is certain, I am disgusted by this community now and I dont want anything to do with it.

Now, I havent done anything really noteworthy for skyrim (althought I did take a very long time and effort making my small mods), but I have done extensive modding in other games, thousands of hours. The steam change got me interested again - I started drawing, I loaded up zbrush. I for one was really excited by the steam change and the quality mods we would have seen from it. It needed to be tweaked because is wasnt done well, but overall I think we are really missing out - both authors and users.

"hahahahahahahahha. Its hard enough getting people to CLICK A BUTTON TO ENDORSE A MOD, you think for a second people are going to strain their finger to use a donate button to give me their 5c? Reality is right here buddy, where have you been living?"

This is so true. I looked at my mods stats on the workshop that has 90,000 current subscribers - most days I get 0 'likes', on 'spike' days where I get a lot of dls (like a few days ago with 400 subs) I got 3 likes. I dont care honestly, but it shows just how sincere this 'we like to donate!' argument is.

"Valve and Bethesda certainly fcuked things up, royally, for a long time to come. All I want to do is remove my mods cause at least half of the hateful, selfish people out there just don't deserve anything at all. "

I was about to remove my mods too. Obviously mine are nothing mods, not like yours, but one has almost 100,000 subs. I just dont feel like I want to be part of this community anymore now.

EDIT: I'm removing my mods, "phantompally76" and his comments has pushed me over the edge.

Orgaya wrote: @FavoredSoul

You're not alone with that. Have you seen other mod authors' pages that decided to use the system? It was a real gong show. Constant feedback of people acting like they are entitled to free content.

@Everyone Else

If this experience has taught us anything, it's that no one deserves free stuff. We certainly haven't proven it.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ phantompally76

If i'm acting like a victim its because you, just now, made me a victim. I am a victim of your hate.

So someone wants to make 50c on a future mod that WOULDNT HAVE EXISTED IF NOT FOR THE SCHEME.

Mod authors are, and always will be, victims of mod-user hate. The hate that has been written for mod-authors here. The hate that has been written for mod-authors on steam. The hate that you wrote against me just right now, and all of the hate yet to be written.

nbtc971 wrote: You act as though someone hired you for a job. It was your decision and own desire to mod, no one asked you or forced you. In addition, when you created your content, you had to think at the time that you were doing it for free, so, if you don't want to do it for free any longer, then don't do it. I can't really blame you for that.

Anyone who creates anything for public consumption has to know that lots of people are entitled jerks. If you didn't, then I'm sure that was quite the wake up call. I haven't read all the comments, I'm sure there are a lot of fools saying stupid stuff, but that's the world we live in. Some will choose to punish those who are grateful due to the comments of the lowest denominator and I think that sucks, but, I can't really complain about it because it's not my time and effort that's being taken to task.

jfisha wrote: I'm just going to throw this in there, but I've personally never complained or wrote s#*! about a mod author because their mods are free. You can't complain about something you're getting for free, right?

Of course, that's not true for everyone, but with a free mod if you hid somebodies comment or told them to "f off", I'd be right there with ya.

However, if I paid for your mod, you'll f'nng take it and like it. You're no longer a person putting up free content, you're like the telephone company now, and I'm a very nice person but the lady that answer's the phone there absolutely hates me.

SkepticalJoker wrote: FavoredSoul,

No one is forcing you to make mods. If it's not fun, then why the hell are you doing it? Find another hobby, for goodness sake! And yes, it IS a hobby. It always has been. Nothing has changed on that front. Valve and Bethesda tried to do exactly what you claim mod users are doing: Take advantage of you. They wanted you to labor, then sell your labor to users, and keep 75% of the proceeds. The only people that win are Valve and Bethesda. Mod users may use your labor by playtesting and enjoying your mods, but they aren't making a profit off your work either. They're not asking you to make mods that they can then sell, while kicking back a measly 25%.

This idea could have worked if the kickback was fair and there was some modicum of assurance to the consumers that mods would be properly curated. As it stood, mod authors were getting screwed, consumers were getting screwed, and the legality of it all was questionable to say the least. Valve and Bethesda did one thing right, and that was to shut this absurd experiment down.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

You speak wise words.

phantompally76 wrote: FavoredSoul, I don't hate you.

I'm just very disappointed with you.

I don't expect you to lose any sleep over that.

I'm not going to lose any sleep, either.

Orgaya wrote: That isn't what the complaint here is. It's this idea that modders should never be given the option to be paid because the mod-user is entitled to free content for no reason. This simply isn't true or fair. And it's wholly disrespectful and incredibly insensitive to treat those who are giving handouts like dogshit.

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is a rather minority stance here. I think you will find most people at the Nexus are in favour of the option to give back to those they want to give back to.

EDIT: Isn't it actually technicaly, probably illegal to be even having these conversations now Bethesda has pulled the rug?

jfisha wrote: I disagree, Orgaya.

We were given the content. That's not a feeling of entitlement.

If you and I were hanging out and I gave you one of my beers, I can't tell the rest of my friends that you're an entitled piece of crap because you took it.

Let's not forget that up until three days ago, most of us here thought all the mod authors were perfectly fine with the way things were going. We've been thriving for four years, for Christ's sake.

I don't think that point gets brought up enough

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

Its so flawed.

THE ENTIRE MODDING SCENE IS ABOUT CHOICE.

I make a choice to make mods.
People make a choice to consume them.
I make a choice to charge 50c for a particular mod...

Yeah, no one asked me to be a modder. In just the same way, nobody asked you to be a consumer.

I have a choice to charge 50c, you have a choice on whether or not to pay 50c.

What gives you the right to come along and say you may not charge 50c?

Orgaya wrote: @phantompally76

You're disappointed in him... because he wanted to be compensated for his work. Ugh. It's just a game. You don't need mods. Sorry. You don't. None of us do.

phantompally76 wrote: Orgaya, did you even read what you just typed?


I agree with you. We don't NEED mods.

We don't NEED to buy them, either.

BadYeti wrote: Now imagine having all those mod users as customers. Having to solve their insane issues because you accepted their money. :~O It's the stuff of nightmares.

digitaltrucker wrote: Indeed, once they've paid for it they DO become entitled at that point.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

I'm aware that a 75% cut for valve and Bethesda made those guys appear greedy to a lot of people, but at the end of the day, its for the mod-author to decide whether or not the contract is fair, not the consumer. The decision gets made when the choice is made on whether or not to sell. I know that there are a lot of people who were ok with paying mod-authors for their work, they just had a huge issue with paying valve/bethesda that 75% for doing nothing but facilitate the exchange. But um... that's how businesses operate. There is ALWAYS going to be a middleman.

I also think you are unaware of the volume of money that was actually being made by the paid mods scheme. Even with a measly 25% cut, the money being generated was PHENOMENAL.

That mod-author with the skull face armor being sold at 1.99 per unit? that made at least 2100 sales before it was taken down. That's 4179$ of which 25% was his for a total of 1044$. Even after losing a few % to fees, that's a damn LOT of money for a few days of sales.

If that was you making that money in 4 days, you wouldn't give a f- for 25%. You'd be more than happy to take what you got. Don't think for a second that if you were in a position to sell mods for that kind of money, that people wanted, you wouldn't leap at the chance.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ BadYeti

And it is because of this that this ecosystem of different memebrs of a community is so important and unique. Bet you it was a f'ing nightmare here when things started out... come to think of it, there are still many volatile situations. One thing the people who run this site have compared to Steam and Bethesda, is experience in dealing with the massively dynamic world of modding.

nbtc971 wrote: I didn't come along and say anything, because it's not my place, however Bethesda, in this case, did create the very tools you used to create your mod. They also created the game you are modding. Obviously they have the right to tell you if it's ok to profit from their work. I personally didn't make a single comment in favor or against the system. I did however listen and read opinions from my favorite youtubers and I felt like they made some valid points.

If a system can be put in that is fair to everyone, then fine. I don't think gaming companies and Valve should take 75% of the freakin profits! I also want assurances that the mod is going to work when I buy it and after any other updates. In addition, I would want any mod conflicts to be reconciled in a timely manner, or eliminated all together. Right now I just don't think modders are going to be able to provide the type of service required for a paid product. At least not with Skyrim. For it work, we might have to have a new system for the next game.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: My paid non-internet office job, which I make my living off of, is to listen to people complain all day.

If you can't handle a few trolls, then you shouldn't do anything involving the public. Everyone gets trolled. I was bullied as a kid but I grew from it. At least the people on your Steam page can't physically attack you.

You go on about entitlement, but you sound pretty entitled to the recognition of your mods. Mods get recognition on their merit of usefulness, not purely because you put a lot of effort into it (don't get me wrong, the fact that you put effort into it has merit too).

If you want to make money off of your artistic talents, make a game. I enjoyed webdesign and in a few work instances I made websites.

Don't try to make money off of an open source community. That's another thing, and it's quite an unethical thing.

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

A lot of people keep making that argument, that this system goes down the toilet when mods break, cause you've paid money and there must be assured of a certain level of quality assurance.

well, user review systems have always existed to inform users about the sensibility of product purchases. Why have people suddenly forgotten about this?

Secondly, the mods that would have gotten the most sales are the cosmetic ones, the weapons, armors and skin mods. These mods seldom break, and any mod-author with half a brain wouldn't upload something that didn't function.

There would have been plenty of opportunists popping up all over trying to make a quick buck off of broken/ half finished mods for sure, but that brings us back to the user review system. One negative review and that mod will be exposed, it'll get buried and life will go on.

Zink6 wrote: Going to be honest with u, what kind of bottled life have u been living? U want an internet without hate? Have u been using the internet for long? U think ur the only poor type of sap to be flamed at? Bud if u cant handle this much on the internet then u need to not only stop modding but stop using the internet.

As for ur reaction. Ur the same as the the ones flaming u. U give ur points in a sarcastic sense and poke fun at the arguments that people have presented. U bring no constructive criticism. U say how u hate half the people here yet for some reason expect love in return. Knowing all this u still bother to post this comment.

Like really man ur acting like such a child. Plz grow up. This is the internet, ppl talk s#*!, if ur famous in a sense, ur going to be asked to kill yourself (this is not ok but at the same time how u going to stop it). U need to learn to ignore those ppl and work with the admins to better police the site. That's as much as u can ask or expect. If u want anything more u can go dream about it in ur sleep because if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?

nbtc971 wrote: @FavoredSoul How does a negative review make someone forget they spent money for a broken mod? Most people will care more about their hard earned money being wasted than the opportunity to leave a negative review in the hopes that it destroys a mod author.

jad31te wrote: "if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?"

I dunno, actually mod the site and start banning trolls?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Just sit back and wait for SOPA.

jfisha wrote: "You're damn straight its a mod-user vs mod-author argument."

I'll keep reiterating this until I turn blue in the face. No, it is not. Why, you ask? Because there's some mod user's that agree with you, there's some that don't. There's some mod authors that agree with you, some that don't.

There are three sides to this argument.

People who think mods should always remain free (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who think mod authors should be allowed to make money (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who will pay for good mods, but think Valve just implemented a crappy system (includes mod authors and mod users)

pvbridgeford wrote: I understand the frustration you are feeling, I'm a new modder, just learning how to mod. I've posted some small mods and rather insignificant at best. The complaints are endless from a few bad eggs, but I'm 67 now and have learned to let the s#*! hit the fan and step out of it's way. I respond to positive comments, but refuse to respond to anyone that is not at least constructive in their negativity. I hope you find it in your future to continue the great work you have been doing and find a way to enjoy the modding community again. Until then I'M Keeping all your work I've downloaded in a safe place so i'll have access to it in the future when I get a new computer.

Thanks again for all your hard work.

savagemoonlight wrote: Aren't you putting yourself up for even more abuses if people were to pay for your mod? Hey I want this sword to be green. I want it to sparkle. Hey you better give in to my demands cause I've freaking PAID for you mod, you're obligated to do as I ask.

Truth is, self-entitled abusive arsehole will always be around and I'm sorry how they've made you so cynical but paid modding is definitely not a solution to this.

roland113 wrote: Well said FavoredSoul.

You nailed it on the head, all the common negatives mod creators get a lot of as they pour their hearts into work. The 1 or 2% of people who take the time to hit the endorse button and people who want to use it to extort their requests even through they keep coming back and downloading every update you do. There are always a few trolls and angry, immature weirdos out there who ruin any online community or game.

It's easy to put up with community crap when its a paid job and you've got people plunking down monthly subscription fees, DLC or other things. Its entirely another when you're basically sharing stuff for free that you're doing for the pure passion of it.

Online game communities always schism like this when big changes hit too. Even good people get all worked up into a froth, and misinformation spreads too. Tensions rise and things become as volatile as if things were red hot discussions on religion or politics. I've seen it time and time again in the industry, and I'm even going through some stuff like this at my day job right now. ugh. Make a change in an existing system and all hell breaks loose.

It's easy to get furious at the jackasses of the world - but when all is said and done - I hope you're still able to appreciate the good community people too.

I still love working with the good people here in the Nexus community who are for the most part really cool and enthusiastic. I've met a lot of nice modders and fans from around the globe, and made quite a few really nice people here. The letters/ videos/ posted art and the helpful suggestions I get really make all the difference for me when I'm modding. It keeps me motivated and from working in a vacuum, and makes it easier to strive to improve.

For me this is basically my nightly jam sessions, and my free time to do whatever work I want, the way I want. The haters - well if they start to cross the lines I just delete them from my boards or ignore them. As for Steam - i mostly stayed away from that from the start, and will continue to do so because its community has never been the same caliber the Nexus is.

viperony wrote: I feel for you and hate to see the trolls being mean to you for your mods! But know most of us who love your mods are here to support you even with the donation button and what not your work has made a lot of us happy and we see the amazing effort you had done and the love seen in your work. Please don't listen to the bad comments or feel down because of them they can go up a tree! Don't remove the mods just because they are getting to you.

}{ellKnight wrote: @Orgaya
I'd agree with you if Bethesda were competent enough to fix their own game and make a decent UI. This hasn't been the case for years.


@FavoredSoul
People will be dicks on the internet regardless of whether they pay you or get your stuff for free. I highly doubt you'll put up with less s#*! if they can also throw in the "but I paid you for this" argument on top of all the other ones when they demand you do a certain thing a certain way. Like I said, people will be dicks on the internet.

I'm not saying some modders didn't get flamed. It isn't the right thing to do, this much is obvious for most of us and when talking about this on the different forums I directed my disappointment at Valve and Bethesda, not at the modders. Reading people's thoughts about this stuff on the forums where trolling gets you banned pretty fast I noticed that other people did the same as I did: arguing in a civil manner, not flaming modders. Did some people post s#*! on the nexus? Yes... they but were also banned for it when reported by the the rest of the community. Did some people post s#*! on steam? Yes... but most of them are still there and encouraged by other trolls. If you think putting your mod behind a pay wall on SWS will make people less rude on the steam forums you're sorely mistaken. Not to mention that the SWS is horrible for hosting skyrim mods due to the way information is baked into the save game. It can royally screw over your game and this is not even accounting for the conflicts that can pop up as mods get updated. As a user you have no control over updates.



You guys can "thank" us all you want by calling us shitstains and other names... we've done this for the past 13 years for free and it has produced amazing results and we want to preserve that. We've uploaded mods and had to put up with selfish people just like everybody else. It sucks but you have to remember that most people don't feel that way, that most people really appreciate the work we put into this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @FavoredSoul You need to look at the big picture here. That mod you said, the skull armor one, making a LOT OF MONNEEYY, it's the perfect example of why this system will harm the modding scene.
Some may say that being paid for mods will encourage mod authors to make great effort and create wonderful mods. While I think that's true, it will be the minority.
This model Valve implemented, will be filled with half assed armors and weapons, mostly cosmetics, with 0 passion and effort. Just like the app store for android. Hundreds and hundreds of stupid crap, totally tasteless and dull games, etc. The good mods will be few. The majority of people will take advantage of the brainless consumers and make no effort whatsoever for their mods. Modders will start to think and make mods with money in mind, passion being minor. It will be like a paid job, with deadlines and such.
I never thought of modding as a paid job. FOR ME, this will ruin the spirit of modding.

The Sims modding scene was DESTROYED when money got involved. A lot of sites started to exploit this, making paid mods a regular thing. Thank god its getting better, slowly.

Anyways, thats my point of view.

jfisha wrote: ValtielCurse

Let's not forget those poor souls who are scared away from sites like the Nexus just because they might have to do something other then hit "subscribe" to get a mod. Even if there's awesome free armor that blows away anything on Steam Workshop for 2 bucks, they'll still blindly pay it.

I guess that's not really much of an argument against it. Maybe those poor saps should be taken advantage of

ChizFoShiz wrote: No way I'm reading down this whole chain cause it looks scary kind of long, but I feel like chiming in.

I'm 100% with you FavoredSoul, the most disgusting part about this is authors were given an option to do something we couldn't before and it's been stripped away just because petulant people can't stand the thought of not having access to everything they "deserve".

That's all this boils down to, it's the same argument that was happening years ago over DLC, except this time you're hurting people who have shown nothing but incredible amounts of good-will to you for years instead of developers who are already being compensated.

And the worst part? Those who did want or try to be compensated are the ones being crucified as "greedy".

What's more greedy, asking for $0.99 for the project you've labored over for thousands of hours, or demanding that price shouldn't exist and I should get that for free because I always have before?

Because the answer seems pretty damn obvious to me.

I've only started to share my plugins in the last couple of years but with the way the audience around the internet in general have acted I doubt I'm going to bother in future and I'm seriously considering making my current files disappear.

jfisha wrote: ChizFoShiz

This thread is not nearly as long as some of the others.

You can do what you want, man. I can understand why you're pissed and if you feel that the community at large needs to be your punching bag, then do what you need to do. A ton of people were all for you guys doing what you wanted, some of us were supportive of you guys but didn't support your decision. If you feel the whole community at large deserves your hatred because you didn't get your way, so be it

d4rkoverlord wrote: Welcome to the internet, FavoredSoul, I use your ultimate assortment mod, and I've been very pleased with it, remember that for each one of those people who complain or give you hate for not getting what they want from you, there are lots of other people who really enjoy your work.

However, as this is internet, almost everything you post, do or say is subject to criticism, good or bad, constructive or destructive, but then again words are only that. If someone doesn't like your stuff, f*** it, do what you want to do with your stuff and only attend to what you consider important.

My final comment is towards the point of getting monetary reward for your mods:

Look I understand your point since mods take effort and time, but you have to understand that when you add money to the formula things must change because the hobbie must become a job/bussiness and as such people are going to demand more from you based on what they're paying and if you can't even take a few hate comments like a man now that there's no money involved, wait till you start charging people for your stuff.

BTW I dont know if your current occupation is related to graphic design or videogames production in general but I do think that with your talent you could be dedicating to that as a formal carreer, so if you're not already into that, you should focus on it instead of those "evil comments from those poisonous people" that torment you so much because that gives a lot more revenue than you could have gotten from that infamous 25%.

fullk0ntact wrote: I usually don't post on things like this because I can typically find better uses of my time, but on this comment in particular I feel inclined to do so. It seems to me that your post only focuses on the negatives of the community and not the positives. Being pessimistic in nature, this is rare for me to say, but it is so blatantly apparent here I felt the need to point it out. Not once in my entire time on the internet have I bashed a mod author for their work, even if I didn't like what they had made. I either gave my praise or I shut up and moved on.

Additionally, although I wasn't outspoken about this "paywall" issue, I did sign a petition against it. I didn't sign it because I was against mod authors charging for their mods, I signed it because a super-corporation wanted to take 75% of the mod author's hard earned money. Well, that's not the only reason, there was also mod stealing and absolutely 0 quality control for what was posted on the workshop in the paid mods section, but I think you get the point.

Boxilot wrote: The "should we pay for mods" argument went through the sims community like hot fire about five years ago now, too. When certain modders started to hide their content behind "donations" (in other words, you had to donate said amount to get their content).

The debate was long, it was hard. We got pirate sites. People were hacked. People were run out of their homes. Yeah hard to believe about the people who play sims of all things right?

Well people didn't like that what we were doing as a community was going to benefit a few select. We had modders who did it for fun, and we had modders who did it for gain. Needless to say it ended up with EA stepping in and now all mods are free. We can finally have a proper community again where things are done in the spirit of fun and community, not in the spirit of money and undercutting and entitled customers.

If you don't do it for fun and you feel you should be compansated (honestly, the idea that you feel you need to be compansated for CHOOSING to do a certain thing with your own game is absurd to me) then in my honest opinion I don't think you should continue. You're obviously not doing it because it brings enjoyment to you anymore.

I don't mod in the skyrim scene but I mod in the sims scene and I do it for fun. I do it because I feel like I want a certain thing in my game and then I share it with my friends because they might want it too. The concept of money wasn't even an idea before Beth and Valve came rushing in, yelling at the top of their voice. Now we have modders left right and center that feel they're owed something. That they deserve compansation for what they're creating.

People spend hundreds, thousands of hours writing fanfiction, do they demand pay for that? No. Why? Because they did it for fun. They don't expect to get compansated for doing something in the spirit of the community.

ChizFoShiz wrote: jfisha that's not even the point here, it's got nothing to do with "not getting my way", I didn't even take part, for me it's mostly about human decency.

Honestly the decision to ditch the system was disappointing but not exactly world shattering.

The hate and the entitlement of the userbase at large however is what's so soul-crushingly hurtful and is clearly what FavoredSoul is getting at too.

That harassment, the threats, the "You won't be missed" comments from ignorant people who've likely never even shared a thing with the community. It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them.

And to the people who have posted "you should expect hate" "get used to it" and the rest of this tripe, you clearly have never been on the receiving end of this behaviour, certainly not en masse, so maybe shut up? There *is* no "getting used" to threats from people you don't know, ever, because you've got no idea what's an 8 year old idiot half way across the globe and who's an unstable lunatic on the other side of town, get it into your skulls that this is NOT okay behaviour and that everyone, including you, needs to take a damn stand.

This is getting way too long and seems like I'm directing it all at you jfisha but it's really not. This whole debacle illustrates yet again the major problems with gaming culture and internet culture overall and that there needs to be some kind of major change here.

I'm tired of being an island in an ocean of pricks.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ChizFoShiz

Thanks chiz. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is very disappointing to think about what COULD have been, had the scheme continued. I would have certainly loved to invest a huge amount of my time and effort into new sets of mods. And its what Valve and Bethesda wanted. They wanted a financial incentive to induce people with real marketable skills to consider creating mods of the highest quality (when they otherwise would not have considered doing it) The less desirable emergence of opportunists, and the inevitable sea of mediocrity, an unfortunate but unavoidable side effect.

Rayek wrote: I've been around for awhile and experienced the trolls and unappreciative/expectant people. Even the horrid dislike button.

I agree it's a shame that people can't take the time to endorse mods to give the author a minor pat on the back...or leave a nice comment.

I agree the donate button won't solve much based on what I've seen in endorsement and donate trends.

I however disagree with your approach, it's no better than the people who are selfish, expectant to a modder and can't step back and look at it from another point of view.

I do mod for the "passion" of it, for the creative release, for the learning experience and for the hope that some others will get the same enjoyment out of what I created. 1, 2, 3 or 100 negative comments doesn't take away form those that do enjoy a mod.

To punish those who enjoy your mods by removing them cause others are jerks and don't is...for lack of a better word...childish.

I hope it's just frustration that's eating at you right now and you can look back and reconsider your stance, keep your mods up and move past this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @ChizFoShiz "It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them"
But is it okay if they pay, to share things with them?

Haters and stupid people will always exist. It will NEVER change. The best way is to ignore them and stay with the people that care. Those are the ones that move your ways, and fire up your passion for this thing called modding.

And funny, I get more s#*! and hate irl that on the internet. Here I come to escape from the hell that is my every day life. Don't say that you are the only one on the receiving end.

Xavathos wrote: FavoredSoul.

I feel you have become as bitter as the people you describe. You seem to forget the fact that the majority of people who speak out are the ones with the destructive attitude, because generally people do not go out of their way to say "thank you". Not because they are not grateful, but because it's hardly worth a post and you should know that your mods are useful and appreciated by simply watching the download counter.

When people make requests with a lack of respect, you don't need to respond or act upon said request in any way. If someone punched you in the face and then asked for a quarter to make a call, you wouldn't give it to him either, would you?

However, the vast majority of the community, even if it may not seem that way because they are not as... obnoxious as the destructive trolls, are people that are very much grateful for your mods, or any other mods for that matter and it's those people that would you punish by removing mods or stopping to make/update them.

If you think the trolls care, and you can get them back that way, I'm afraid you misunderstand them. They troll specifically because they do NOT care. Whatever you do, it doesn't affect them, it does affect us.

So I would kindly ask you to reconsider your position on this subject. Perhaps seek out your inner optimist and try to find the silver lining. All in all, you didn't start modding for nothing, right? Hold on to that, and trust in the part of the community that does care. Let go of all the hate and trolls, it will only turn you as bitter as they are. Don't let them win.

Halendia wrote: I suppose as I am an exception in most cases, but I've spent over $120 in donations total to the Nexus community authors, I go through my mod list frequently to endorse every mod I decide to permanently add to my collection, and/or a mod I feel is worthy but cannot keep. I have created mods, I've ~250 hours clocked in the CK, not a lot compared to others, but eh, it's +/-250 hours. I've spent countless hours battling comments sections, to either help defend and author or help troubleshoot. I've made patches for some mods in order to assist the author receiving more spotlight - asking for nothing in return.

I know for certain that I have donated to some of the authors that decided to add paywalls to their mods, Isoku is a good example. I donated more than he would have received had I bought his mods from the Workshop.

I AM ONE OF THOSE USERS, so what about me? I have EXPLICITLY gone out of my way to try make modding more fun by assisting/donating/contributing/encouraging authors, and also made a few measly mods by myself.

So what about me?

hafizlordfeast wrote: Ever heard the word "This is why we can't have nice things"? Yup, people who does amazing things will rarely get the gratitude they deserve, so it comes to how they handle it in the end, and I'm not just talk about modding, but everything there is to life. Sure it sucks to provide something to the people that is worse than animal out there, but if you can endure the internet abuse, without the need to give up, some people will be grateful as well.

You do have my thanks for providing some of the cool mods, that I used and maybe forget to endorse, and probably will donate if only the money differences ain't so contrast enough in their cost, between different countries, still don't have enough money you know, even if I do, I rather pay extensively if I want to donate something on the internet. Of course, we all know that most people are used to committed on being douche in the internet every day, instead of giving back something good.

I could not fathom how people could live a life of bullies everyday without the feeling of at least saying "Thank You". I know I wouldn't want to be friend with any of them, and rather just give each of them a good punch in the face, if I could. If only the computer will let me do that. But I do say this, thank you for the hard work you've done, even though you have received the treatment you don't deserve, we, half of the community who also stay behind the curtain, are grateful for your services over the five or so years.

ChizFoShiz wrote: My final line was to convey just how overwhelming the awful to normal ratio is on the internet, not to suggest that it's me vs the world.

That being said the fact that the internet is like that right now doesn't mean it should continue to be and it doesn't give people a free pass to let it.

If human beings just said "Well, that's the way it is!" every time something was wrong in society we'd never make progress, this is no different to any other societal problem and it needs a remedy.

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

It's noble to want to change the situation of the internet, but how do you suggest we remedy this?

Going back to medieval times, pick up our pitchforks and torches and "burn the trolls" signs? And if so, who would we burn? Everything is essentially anonymous.

Fact of the matter is, there have always been people like this since the beginning of time. Liars, cheaters, scammers, frauds, bullies, or criminals of any other kind. It's just in the last 30 years it's become much more apparent because of the way the internet and other media spread the beliefs of these trolls uncensored and without consequence to the person hiding behind a username.

And yeah, it's getting worse. But I ask you again, how do you think to remedy this?

Uranium - 235 wrote: @FavoredSoul

At the end of the day, the paywall scheme almost certainly was going to destroy collaboration, completely f*#@ up 'complementary' mods (ie: the 'recommended to use with this mod...' lists), and basically price everyone out of the ability to mod Skyrim even close to what they were used to, because with every crackpot modder thinking his product is worth 'just $4', a huge install would cost literally hundreds of dollars.

Regardless if the 'most profitable mods' were going to be stupid ugly Skeletor armor or not, introducing greed into the mix was going to severely change how modding for Gamebryo works, for the worse of everyone except the people profiting.

You were going to throw all that away for your own personal payday.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @Xavathos The more people that don't sit idly by and watch as people are abused, the less people are going to do it. I don't have a perfect solution, I doubt anyone does, of course there are still going to be people that do it, but change doesn't happen by sitting on your hands.

And no, this isn't a problem that's only just visible because of the way we communicate, it's exasperated by the way we communicate, I guarantee you the vast VAST majority of abusive behaviour online would not take place in a real world scenario because A. You are no longer anonymous/a screen name and B. You're probably within distance of people who are not going to just watch.

The ability to form a hate mob on the internet in recent years has gotten ridiculous and this is just one more example of it happening.

kai0 wrote: Good grace, please, just take a deep breath all. As a purely user of all the fantastic mods you have all created over the last years, i must say that i personally have been overjoyed with the diversity and availability you modders have brought to skyrims modding community.

In all i would like you users, people such as i, to ask yourself: what right do i have to blatently deny those who have laid many hours of work into content, which i enhance my experience of this game, some gratitude?
Certainly not all the content which has been made over the years deserves equal praise, but nontheless does it deserve it for being made.

Personally i feel that paid mods could have been a great initiative towards greater quality. I don't really understand the rage against the concept of paid mods. quality control would have come along quite naturally in the form of people buying the good mods, not the silly bad ones. Albeit the system on startup was pretty much rubbish. No content controll. Imo a 90% cut to the modders and 10% shared between valve and bethesda, combined with lower prices would have been a more realistic model. In the long rund Valve and Bethesda would have made money, and the modders would have made money equal to or greater than a donation with cuts.

FavoredSoul, know that i respect you for the content you have brought to the community. Content that i have used in more than a few playthroughs. Phantompally76's comment is harsh and wether the community would survive with or without you is irrelative, although you will surely be missed for the content you could have made.

This concerns the rest of you lot aswell! Know that people (in general) are very grateful for the content you have brought us.

To the rest: Show some fcking respect.

Bring the love back to Skyrim, love and Peace!

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

I agree wholeheartedly, and I too believe that something needs to be done. I just don't see how. Unfortunately it seems that the more we talk about it, the more attention we give it, the worse it gets.

darklordzelot wrote: It's not surprising what people commented. I mean this is the internet the one place where people can let out their inner evil without worrying about the consequences. And they will do exactly that because it's the way people work. I'm not saying everyone does it but most do.

pantera160 wrote: Since these replies have become a bit to long to read them all I'm just gonna trow my 2c in.

I do agree with you on the fact lots of mod-users are just rubbish. They are part of the new internet society where everything on the internet is not only free, but has to completely correspond to our wants. But this does not mean every single mod-user is like this.
Don't you think that removing a mod will hurt those users who downloaded it and endorsed it and maybe even donated for it a lot more then those trolls and haters?

Also the biggest problem I and probably a lot of other people who did sign the petition had was not only the paying for the mod but the added complications for the future and the total lack of communication. As stated on nexus and other sites the fear was to see the whole community break and see all the quality mods go behind the paywall.
I understand modders wouldn't mind getting some money for their mods, but why did you even start making them? To improve your own game right? For fun on a game that you like playing?
Until last week people released a couple new mods and updates a day. All in the hope of someone donating? Or just because they liked it, wanted to please the players and in the best case even earn some cash for it...

I am not going to defend those retards giving death-treats to or insulting modders, but it did piss off quite some people when a couple of modders put themself in a victim role. And not a hate victim (that i agree with) but a money victim: 'I have always made mods for the love and fun of making them, but now after 5 years i realise you guys should've paid me for it'. So don't just pull your mods from nexus but just do like SkyUI did, keep everything that exists till this date free but make updates paid...

Lastly I still think donations are the way to go unless Bethesda and Valve come up with a solution to the QC and mod stealing.

Sorry for long post ;)

Unilythe wrote: I can't understand how someone could not agree with what FavoredSoul wrote here. The internet is a vile place, even on the Nexus sometimes. I've seen my fair share of hateful, entitled, demanding nonsense thrown at mod authors here on the Nexus. Clearly that happens. I'm not sure how you could disagree with that - it's a fact.

As for mods being paid - I think most people were against the way Valve and Bethesda handled it, and also against the fact that already existing mods became paid. If there were only new mods on there, Valve and Bethesda had communicated this entire thing better, and the cut to the mod author was higher, I don't think there would have been an outrage like this.
Now there are people who legitimately complained about mod authors "selling out". Screw those people. If mod authors want to get paid for some of their mods, sure. It's worked for other games. People put in a lot of work in a mod sometimes, so if they want to get paid 50 freaking cents or maybe even a dollar for it then why the hell not?

CptnBrryCrnch wrote: You are so right Favored. My initial reactions were concern about intellectual property sharing but I did not give enough consideration to mod authors getting recompense for their good work.

Nobody was forcing me to buy a sword, but certain mods are definitely worth money to me.

I hope the reintroduce the option for paid mods in the future. You can count on me buying good stuff.

lilkyser wrote: Oh for god sake's people complaining about paying for mods are not force to buy the friggin mods, don't like it? then don't buy it simple as that, i don't understand this people at all

MacKom wrote: Let`s just...simplify.

Favored - whom did you make your mods for? Did you make them for yourself because you wanted something like that in your game and, once it was done, were satisfied? If so, all the trolls in the comments shouldn`t have bothered you at all. AT ALL. I had my dealings with people like that and I shrugged it off - I was happy with my mod. *I* enjoyed it because *I* made it for *MYSELF*. I uploaded it because I thought others might like it as well. Some did, some didn`t. And that`s totally fine with me. I took the CC, thanked those who were nice, helped out where help was needed and that`s it. Period.

If, however, you did your mod for some other reason (recognition, "fame", whatever) - that was a major flaw to begin with.

Sorry, buddy.
That being said, I do wish you all the best. Really. You`ve shown us some mad skills. Just remember to enjoy modding for yourself again.

Lillim3 wrote: So I just feel like this is hilarious with people hating modders, modders hating users when this was never about the modders.

This is about consumers being against additional costs in gaming. The games are expensive enough now that the DLC trend has become a norm.

We used to pay $40 for a fully finished product. Now we pay $60+ for half finished, bug ridden garbage that the devs expect us, the players to finish for them.

It isn't that I'm not willing to give you, a modder money for your work... If your work were a complete product in and of it's own.

I'm not going to spend another f*#@ing dime on Skyrim if that money reaches Bethesda's hand. They haven't earned it - And if we give it to them it'll be the same in the next title. And what will we the consumer get for it? Nothing.

Bethesda isn't going to do anything more as a dev than they were going to before.

The modders arn't going to produce anything they wouldn't have anyway.

This is a situation where Bethesda rakes in more cash - Most of the modders get nothing, a select few might profit and the consumers get bent over backwards.


You're right, I'm not willing to spend another dime on a nearly $100 f*#@ing video game. If you are, I think you have enough financial stability to not be worried about an extra $100~200 a month anyways.

Seren4XX wrote: I've seen a few people agree with you FavoredSoul, and the one think that caught my attention is all the guesstimates (guessed estimates) at how big the bad users vs the good ones are. I've even seen someone say "2% of the users is nice!". Ridiculous, I say.

Unless anyone can come up with cold hard facts about how many toxic users there are vs nice ones, all this talk about how bad the community is in its entirety is all based on personal experience.

In my honest opinion, FavoredSoul, I feel like you've yet to learn that you don't have to care about what anybody says and asks/demands.
Yes, it took me some time to learn too with the necessary blood sweat and tears, albeit not under pressure of rude people. I learned that as soon as something that has to do with modding makes me uncomfortable I just stop. I stop, take a breath, go do something else for as long as I need. I mean this in reference to public modding, for me I sometimes just go back to modding just for myself if I don't want to deal with public modding stuff anymore.

That has saved me a lot of head aches.

As for user experience as a mod author... I can say with pure honesty that my experience with Nexus users has been absolutely phenomenal. From people commenting on the mod page to people PMing me.
People have always been very polite and understanding. Sometimes when I read a big request in my inbox I sighed and wondered if this person realized what an undertaking it would be to fulfill that request. Then I realized I can simply tell them and be done with it, and people have always been very patient and understanding.

I don't know what you've had to endure, FavoredSoul, but as far as personal experiences go I can say with certainty that not every mod author has had to endure the same things as you have, nor have the same experience with users.

My experience with Nexus users has been quite positive. I refuse to join the bandwagon blindly and let all the negativity pile up.

It's been scientifically proven that we, at least in the Western civilization, have a tendency to remember negativity a lot better than positivity (Read the Negativity Bias paragraph on this page). Also, strongly-opinionated people will always have a louder voice on the internet.
Do you see where I'm going with this?

Somebody who can't deal with negativity and pressure from others yet, simply isn't gonna last in "the spotlights".

I'd like to invite you and others reading this to go to FavoredSoul's Ultimate Assortment mod page and check out the first three pages of comments. There's a lot of positivity in there. I've seen people with a question first take the time to show their appreciation before continuing. That's saying something.

My take on paid mods? I'd rather not have them. If you really want to know why I'll go drag my opinion about it from my tumblr, but for now I'd like to leave it at this.

Phychosis wrote: Don't know what hate you could of ever got your work is amazing your in my top 3 fav modders of all time along with Chesko, and Grace Darkling.

999-jay-999 wrote: I can but express that I among many always appreciate every mod I use in my games. I whole heartily endorse every mod I can to highlight the modders generosity for sharing there creation.

I know I speak for hundreds that we will continue to support and further encourage creativity and positive pleasure where mods and mod authors are concerned.

diyeath wrote: Its your choice to be outraged. Yes, some people are silly and the internet brings out this personality issue with certain people. However we all have choices in how we react to outside stimulus so to that end I reject your notion.

You can either be the bigger person or you can sink down to the vocal minorities level. It seems that you self admittedly sink down to their level.

Be the better person.

durge13 wrote: I've already pulled my mods from Nexus, had pulled mine from Steam Workshop years ago but this just made me realize how poorly modders are treated in general in the Skyrim community. I can't afford to spend time modding anymore and this would have allowed me to spend more time than ever on it. It's good in a way to see that another author I actually have a lot of respect for and one that I have always used mods from, feel the same way about the situation. In another way it's awful seeing it too, as nobody should have to feel that way about a community that constantly says it's 'in the spirit of modding'.

Modders are taken for granted, I hope you don't remove your mods but or stop making them but then on the other hand it might show these bullies that they deserve nothing if they give nothing in return.

Someone on Steam actually had a good idea that modders could have a group on Steam which only modders can join and only modders who submit something to the workshop could see others mods. Making it so you have to at least contribute.

riverreveal wrote: I dont think anyone is against mod creators getting money for good mods. Everyone was against the system Valve and Beth introduced.

I respect all modders who could have deleted all their free files straight away and charged for them, without thinking whether the system that had been introduced was beneficial long-term for the community. They are the modders I hope do get rewarded some time in the future when Valve and Beth come back with a system that hopefully was created alongside the community.

Brendan62 wrote: FROM FavoredSoul a section of his/her comment

"OH, ITS "FOR THE LOVE OF MODDING" YOU SAY?
Rubbish. That love and passion for modding? That gets dashed on the rocks the moment you receive your first troll, your first abusive comment, your first person who throws a tantrum cause you don't want to fulfill the request that they're asking of you. Does anyone even remember the time when the nexus sites had a DIS-ENDORSE button? I cannot begin to relate just how many times my mods got dis-endorsed simply cause I didn't fulfill the requests people were demanding. Unless you are a real modder, you will NEVER understand what that's like. Your wear your heart on your sleeve when you make and release mods, cause you DO pour your heart, soul and energy into them. In a community with a lot of hateful, entitled, selfish, and downright evil people, why don't you go off and endure a few years of that abuse, and then come back and tell me I must only mod for the love and passion of it."

MY RESPONSE

As a modder Im very anti paying for mods due to the far reaching consequences
but at the same time this is a valid point ,

these days its just way to much drama to release mods, rude and abusive comments, people who refuse to read read mes and descriptions then complain it doesnt work. There is a very negative vibe shown to modders on all levels. Mod consumers need to realize that whether you like, approve or whatever of a mod someone spent a great deal of time making it then uploading it for people to enjoy. If your not one of them or dont like the mod whatever keep quiet leave the negative comment alone. May great old time modders have left due to this
sort of negativity

So if nothing else take all this as a lesson in how you should be treating the modder , not as if said modder should be honored you actually downloaded his\her mod. But treat the modders who upload stuff for people enjoyment with the respect they deserve.Especially those who stayed on the side of free mods by adding support on mod pages etc

Maena wrote: Are you refering to the comments on the Steam workshop and on the userprofiles on Steam?

Looking at your own mods here on the nexus, there are page after page of really positive comments. I've only had a quick glance and not gone back to the very first post on each of them, but I didn't see a single hateful or troll post like you describe, so I'm just wondering where you're coming from with your post.

That being said, I'd like to thank you, FavoredSoul, for the remarkably good swords you've released here on the nexus, free and for everybody to use. Seeing the quality of them, I think it's sad that you stopped modding 6 months ago. I for one would love to see more of them, even if I haven't actually downloaded any of them yet. That's simply because I didn't know they existed.

shadowwolfz wrote: You're justified, I give you that. That is all I will give you though.

"Over the 5 or so years i've modded Bethesda games at these nexus sites, i've come to realise that a portion of the community are selfish, entitled, and often outright abusive to mod authors (not everybody of course, but a portion) with their requests, demands and complaints, and many times i've pulled mods, or have logged off feeling absolutely outraged at the way I and my mods had been treated. How many of you can honestly say you've read, or been reading even a fraction of the things people have been saying over on steam? You know that one particular guy who ported the 3 DOTA swords for sale on the workshop? Have you seen his steam profile comments? The kinds of things that had been written... that sheer overwhelming hate, the pure evil. Its just disgusting. Point in hand, a mere taste of the popular opinion of the mod-user.."

The popular opinion of the mod-user. This is like saying the burnings of the stores in Ferguson were indicative of everyone who agreed with that movement. It isn't. Sorry to burst your bubble. That is a blanket statement brought on by emotion and nothing based on a rational thought. By the way, about the 3 DOTA swords guy? Nobody has to like the mods, you open yourself up to even more sharp reviews when people have money involved.

The problem is relatively simple. People vilify those who only come back to work for profit because it leads to bad practice. There are fewer good modders who would do this vs an infinite amount of scammers, 10 minute modders, and outright thieves of content. The reputation of the paid mods put up suffer as a whole in the same way EA and Greenlight on Steam do. You know what they say about bad apples. This cant really be prevented under the sloppy system Valve put up.

Also there is another problem existing with this. Mods are dangerous to the game itself. Purchasing one is with the knowledge that it can break another product you spent far more money on and do more damage that cant be corrected with a simple refund. There is also the issue of poor quality control implemented by Steam as seen by the numerous reviews of paid mods already existing. To say the community doesnt deserve a hand in deciding what should and shouldnt be paid for is wrong in my opinion given the risks. I feel it would have been better if more support and/or an application system for the paid mods would have been better in this instance.

"In a community with a lot of hateful, entitled, selfish, and downright evil people, why don't you go off and endure a few years of that abuse, and then come back and tell me I must only mod for the love and passion of it." - That is every community ever on the face of the earth. You think paying for mods will make this go away? Im sorry, but the statement is really invalid considering you have been here for a long time and only 3 days ago had this option. Nobody ever made you do it. No one ever made you continue to mod for the community over one or more games. This isn't the same as there being a contract between you and the consumer. There had to have been some positive in it for this to happen.

Also I dont want to be spending my money on content without the reassurance that it has passed some kind of quality check and wont completely mess up. I know mods can conflict with other mods, but the refund policy Steam implemented was woefully inadequate and contributed to the problem. 7 day ban for refunds? That is simply insane. And 24 hours to test only? Another insanity. People don't play when it comes to their money. This has set up a system where the consumer takes a HUGE risk and hurts modding as a whole. Just telling it how it is.

My overall thought is had this been done correctly and implemented in a rational way, you would find more open to the idea than you think. Right now, it gives the consumer a huge amount of risk and does indirectly harm the community. People have every right to be angry. Also cut/copy/pasting the business model from their existing packages and assuming it would work in a radically different game is really sloppy business practice in my opinion. Valve/Bethesda shouldnt be let off the hook for that.

Some of the things I point out should help reassure you that most of this isnt directed to modders personally and stems from things wrong with the system and falsely attributed to modders indirectly. I still firmly believe conditions might improve some if they fix these problems. However, I still think coming back to Skyrim is not the way to go on this.

Long but I've really wanted to get it off my chest since reading it.

HadToRegister wrote: I like how one side is accusing mod users of just being "Entitled brats" who complained on Steam until paid modding was taken down.

I'm both a mod user and maker (not very good ones), but what people are missing in this thread, is that the BIGGEST uproar about paid mods was that the modders got 25% while the remaining 75% of the "earnings" was being UNFAIRLY given to Bethesda and Steam.

It's nice to know that a lot of us who stuck up for modders and their unfair cut are now seen as "Entitled brats"

I hit the endorse and usually make sure to also leave a comment saying how great the Mod is and that I also endorsed it, (usually with a all caps "ENDORSED!" )

(I suppose the profile police will look go around and look at my profile to count how many times I have and Haven't endorsed a mod so I can be named "A good guy" or an "Entitled brat" )

I made a lot of texture replacer mods, and they got all kinds of ridicule and I even had one user that made sure to go around and vote down each of them and leave crappy comments, oh well.
They aren't fantastic, but they took me hours of time, that I could've spent doing something else, but I mainly did them for the heck of it, for fun, and to see if I could actually do it.

People need to lighten the hell up, seriously

All this debacle has shown is that there is equally crappy people on BOTH sides of the argument.

HadToRegister wrote: Threads like this make me think of the old Twilight Zone episode where Invaders from Mars get everybody to turn on one another, so we wipe ourselves out, instead of the Martians having to spend their energy and resources doing it.

People had torches and pitchforks out against The Nexus, Steam, Bethesda, Modders, Non-Modders, and it was a real disgusting display of human nature.

The_Funktasm wrote: As a mod maker myself, I have to say that you ought to get over yourself. Stop acting like an angsty teenager that feels they've been betrayed when in reality the community is inadequate for every mod author, always has been, and will continue to be.

It's not new. It's what you deal with as a modder, and I've known that for a good decade now. Just as nobody is entitled to make you work, you aren't entitled to be treated like a paid employee or good friend on the sole merit of your work.

The nexus is not, and has never been yours or any other person's personal showcase. That's what a blog is for.

SiniVII wrote: This is pathetic.

A huge wall of text, containing nothing but a one-sided argument without room for other sides of the story, and even if arguments are being made they are being hand-waved away with sarcasm and snide, not taken seriously.

You don't want a discussion, you want sympathy and people to agree with you. When I look at the comment section here on Nexus, your mods are all well received, not seeing much of what you're describing, which supports my claim that you're just fishing for sympathy.

Dude, I am sorry you feel like the punching-bag of the internet, but you really shouldn't use the Steam Workshop as your clap-o-meter. The applause you'll get from steam users is predictable to say the least... And when you set yourself up for it, you'll just have to deal with it.

WightMage wrote: Thread is too long, even compared to past ones, and most people have said what I would have by now, so let me simplify:

@FavoredSoul
1) As someone who has gone out of their way this weekend to defend people's right to be paid for their work if they so choose, and donated, I'm offended at being blanket included in the rabble of "entitled" kids you mention, thanks.

2) The first thing people in all art fields learn when they get into art is that they either do it because their passionate about it, or they quit immediately. Criticism is LEGION- and they will not be stopped. You can either learn to take what you want to improve yourself, and ignore the rest, including the vitriolic, or not.

3) It is unrealistic and entitled to expect the ground you stand on to be kissed just because you made something.

I say this as a writer, and as far as I'm concerned, the bullshit we receive from so much as putting pen on paper is a fraction of the hatred that you get and continue to get from making mods. So a dozen people are spamming posts about how you're a terrible person, complete with overused memes and broken english? Who cares?

Imagine spending YEARS on a work, sending ar least a dozen drafts to publishers, editors, and friends alike, getting next to no responses, and when you do, finding your work awash in red ink or attached to a letter that extolls the reasons your work isn't profitable. Imagine the self righteous idiots who accuse you of being racist/homophobic/gay agenda/devil worshipper/christian propagandist/anti science/fails at science just because you write characters and situatioms contrary to their established worldview.

This torrent cannot, and will not be stopped, and the sooner you learn to ignore what is useless to you and pick up what is, will you be ready for the mod/artist community.

Otherwise, it sounds like you aren't meant for this line of work. All you've managed to do is throw anyone who would have helped you out under the bus over something that's meant to be fun anyway.

nadasico wrote: You just said my main point FavoredSoul the trolls are EVERYWHERE. They were before this and will be after this. The entire world is their domain as it is anyone else's. An ******** will continue to exist for the foreseeable future. Unless we somehow end up a docile race with no emotion of our own volition (Vulcans). Either that or the world ends and in that case I don't think anyone will be sweating what's going on with the internet all that much at that point.

Tarathiel_Torosir wrote: Yes Favored, how dare people ask you to make things. Truly we are an entitled species when we ask things of people, frankly I say we should nuke ourselves out of existence.

Draugas wrote: 54 pages of absolutely glowing reviews by people. I trip skipped through every other page from Aug9, 2013 to today and the only things not a positive review were bug reports, general requests for help on compatibility and requests for item (all politely posed) because they loved your work.

Over 8k endorsements, 144k + unique DL's.

I get the feeling people love your work and let you know... overwhelmingly.

rekkhan wrote: I want to say that, a modder should be paid for his work, but not like this.
Selling a mod at this time is wrong because it incomplete. The reason is there is no standard yet. A standard that people could base on to create their own mods. A standard that makes sure people won't ruin their game when using a mod. If you think people must pay for your mods, you also have the responsibility to guarantee that they are completely compatible with the mods people had paid. I tell you, such modder haven't exist yet.

nadasico wrote: @sunshinenbrick

No they are dealing with the massively dynamic world known as the human condition. It is not unique to any one community modding, twitter, facebook, youtube or your local PTA meeting.

WightMage wrote: Not much else to say but "lol"....

Nidhoegger wrote: You're overreacting and your assessment is grossly flawed.

People are correct to criticise Valve's distribution methode and payment plan in whatever manner they see fit. Content of criticism in this case matters less than volume.

The 25% payment plan is a horrendous rip-off and with the lack of content control, Valve had opened itself to the exact same case megaupload.com did a good while back. Browsing your own mods, I see that you have foreign IPs in there. If you were to charge for the Sword Of Truth, you would also be part of that investigation when it comes, and on the wrong end of it. Intellectual property laws are more than a can of worms, they are a bottomless pit of despair. Once money is in the picture, things can get horrendously ugly and disproportionate. Criticism of the modus operandi is thus more than valid.

IF you wish recompensation for modules, you have two sane avenues:

1) Donations. Be nice to your customers (once you want money, they are customers, and interactions fundamentally change; that is simply how it is) and don't be a prat, and especially deliver quality that many people like, and people will donate. Realise it will never be enough to finance your modding, unless you somehow make the next Star Citizen. Realise modding is still a hobby, and always will be, because you cannot garuantee yourself a proper income.

2) Talk to the IP holders of the software you wish to mod. Have a proper concept and enough work already done to prove it viable. Use the words "new DLC". If you present yourself well, you will be able to legally profit off this, and the slew of copywrite laws are avoided on the destributor's side by making it an official DLC.

In closing, the vitriol experienced in these past few days is only partly the byproduct of changing the relationship from peer-related and social to provider and consumer. Once you as a mod-maker are seen as a provider, people treat you differently. However, paid mods also attack established "traditions" and poison the well. The reaction and backlash to this is to be expected,and will scatter and hit more or less innocent bystanders as well, because once the mob is unleashed, anyone who gets called a witch gets burnt.

This does not make the "mob" or everyone who justifiably complained and went active against this a bad person or a troll. This does not mean they are suddenly against mod makers. But with the above post, FavouredSoul, you have certainly ensured that a fair share will be against -you-. A smarter choice would be not to speak out and, like our own Helmut Kohl for decades here, just sit it out.

phoenixmass wrote: Making mods is a lot fun, updating mods can be really dull and time consuming
Most authors will want to move on to their next mod idea/interest.
Why not pay a very small amount for an update that adds extra features
That way ensuring the modder keeps old mods up to date
I know i would for somthing like Frostfall (Chesko) also an update for the Creation Kit
Maybe an extra update donation button, dont know put about as much thought into it
As probably steam did, a balance in the force shall be found
The best fair solution will probably come from nexus over this year a user maybe
I also like free stuff does'nt everyone and would not pay for most mods
Including my own which are quite basic
but some are a bit special and i would support those mod makers
Being able to quit their jobs and mod full time.
No one would choose to mod or work in the game industry for the money
The dude that said no one asked you to make mods
No one asked Jimi Hendrix to pick up a guitar.
FavoredSoul, most Nexus users are fair minded
Hope you dont hide mods really like Ultimate Assortment.
phantompally76, can't you agree to disagree and State your reason try to see both sides.
It's easy to be in the in crowd go along with mob rules
Takes guts to stand apart, a bit of trust goes a long way.
More important things going on in the World there are.
Hav'nt experienced any Trolls on nexus but my lightsaber is Red
And turns all the way upto 11
I will eventually take over this World
(You have been warned)

Fowldragon wrote: Favored, rather than pull your mods, assert your right to control. This game changer comes with more than simply a couple paragraph retraction anouncement on reddit...As they attempted to change manner and means of compensation while ignoring legal issues, You now have a right to require use of your work to be removed or compensated.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

If a contract is amended without mutual consent, the contract is then nullified. You uploaded your work and expected no financial gain...so when they established a pay system, Your consent must then be reasserted should it not? Should Valve be able to offer A SINGLE Pay-to-Play mod without addressing ALL of the FREE mods that have come before?

Seems to me that if Valve proffited in ANY WAy without giving every modder fair compensation, they are open to legal redress.

Nightasy wrote: I have to say I agree with everything you've just said FavoredSoul.

I've always modded in the past for myself. I made mods I wanted for me and then shared them for free on the Nexus out of pure charity. Yes, I made the mods for selfish reasons but giving them away for free was just me being nice. I’ve even gone a step further with such charity on multiple occasions by catering those mods I gave away to fit the desires of the community. I don’t even use some of the body types I’ve converted my mods to work with but someone asked me to do it and I did.

What do we get for being nice? Nothing because nothing was expected as it was entirely an act of charity. We asked for nothing and with the exception of a simple thank you here and there, we got nothing in return. Though for all that charity that we offered and all that free stuff we just gave away, it was not without consequence. We built up and unknowingly supported the mentality that mod developers don't deserve anything and that all mods should be free. This was of course not our intent but that's what we did by releasing our mods out of charity. We are partially to blame for creating this mentality.

Since last night, I have taken the time to really consider the events that have transpired over this past week. While I had not received any money from paid mods, eventually I would have because my work would have sold, of that I am certain. My free mods would have remained free and I had planned to also release a mod for free ever so often simply out of charity for those who could not afford my paid mods. Also because doing so would help keep the quality of my work well known. Such an act would have been like a trend and I can be fairly certain other authors that offered paid content would have taken to such a practice.

I’ve come to the conclusion that the anti-paid mod community just took money out of my pocket. That is how I see it and that is exactly what they did. For all my charity, this was the thanks that we modders have received. We had an opportunity to earn money doing something that we love to do but because we were so charitable in the past… the opportunity was ripped from our grasp. Gee, thanks a lot guys and gals... real uncool.

My free mods would have always remained free and I would have continued to throw a few more free mods out there from time to time. Now none of my mods are available, not even my free ones. Such charity caused me to lose an opportunity that would have been a ‘dream come true.’

Now it’s not the last you’ve seen of ol’ Nightasy. I’ll still make tutorials and teach people how to make mods. I’ll still continue to answer mod related questions but I won’t be one to give mine away. Not anymore, not after this. You can call it whatever you want but I call it being made aware.

Amorella wrote: @FavoredSoul

I play a very heavily modded skyrim, and yea, most of those mods are of the cosmetic variety... but if this whole business has taught me anything it is that we, the people who USE the mods, need to step up and start showing our support for the modders who spend so much time making our games worth playing years after the last DLC gets released. I know I am running at least 10 mods that I would ABSOLUTELY pay for, and I plan on donating to the creators of said mods from this point forward.

The real issue here is that most people like free stuff... But their is a difference between *liking free stuff, and feeling like you are *entitled to free stuff, and OMG those that feel entitled sure do whine a lot!

I think that pay-for mods should actually be a thing... I just think that in this instance, it was bungled badly, and the modders are catching rather undeserved s#*! for it. I also think that a lot of people are being utterly selfish about this, and should feel absolutely ashamed for the way they have been treating you guys.

Anyways... Here's to better days. Hopefully more people will come up off their wallets, and give you modders the support you truly do deserve.

mindumindumindu wrote: I'm a downloader and fan of your mods and although I'm not a TES modder, I do agree with everything you said and feel sorry for you. It's one thing to be grateful that there are talented modders in a community giving away their leisure time and sanity to make our games better for free, but it is another thing for a loud few to feel entitled to 100% free high-quality content. Us downloaders can be unappreciative and entitled asshats and if a modder comes in for endorsements, kudos, popularity, money and/or some other form of compensation, the downloading community can take a greater toll on said modder's self-esteem.

I know this will sound unpopular to downloaders, but I think modders should take at least one long break from modding and the modding community to take care of themselves. And if you want to take your mods down: it will hurt me as a downloader who has endorsed every mod he used/uses in his game, but if it means a healthier FavoredSouls who may or may not one day come back to the modding community refreshed and not burnt out, then I won't complain.

Of course at this point, I'm betting FavoredSouls is finally ignoring this thread and especially its segment of flame-baiters and genuine flamers. Good for him/her.

I have to say I agree with Rekkhan. One thing that didn't seem to come up often in the paid vs free debate was that when you expect payment for a mod you have to take it to the next level in terms of customer support, mod compatability, mod stability etc (i.e. you expect that if you purchase all the DLC for a game you will be able to run all the DLC in your game and not suffer from DLC incompatibilty. This isn't true for mods and I didn't see much on how the community was going to get from modding as a hobby to DLC standards in the steam expt).

I can see why people might want to profit from their work, but feel very sorry for everyone involved in this. It was badly thought though by Valve and Bethesda on pretty much everything from fair pay for mod authors and consumers, policing mod content, customer support etc and caused a lot of damage as a consequence.

[AbsoluteMx]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704, #24755774, #24755999, #24756039, #24756394, #24756489, #24756599, #24756669, #24756944, #24757404, #24757709, #24757794, #24757819, #24757959, #24758109, #24758244, #24758549, #24758604, #24758779, #24758789, #24759069, #24760799, #24760824, #24765454, #24765899, #24766564, #24766884, #24767039, #24767164, #24769074, #24769604, #24770129, #24770469, #24770524, #24770899 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but cańt understand you...

donsolidad wrote: @mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

The only thing those 10 percents show is that the endorsement system is inadequate as a praise measurement, and is not something you should use as a base for your argument.

sdupp wrote: @ mannygt Agree with your post, but i don't think it was the only reason for some modders to sell mods as a greedy modder.

caffeinatedNetling wrote: Regarding the protest mod having lots of endorsements: Get people emotionally involved with the process of making the mod noticed, and of freaking course they're going to endorse.

macintroll wrote: It's just show that 90% of users are just leechers ^^

caffeinatedNetling wrote: I typically have "modding sessions" that literally last for days, going straight from vanilla to the setup I'll play through the following months (without even so much as updating anything, I lost too many saves already).
If I could endorse the mods I download in these sessions when I have them open, I would, but by the time the countdown before the endorsements are enabled reaches zero, I can't even remember what I have downloaded anymore.

EDIT: I went to my profile to actually look at what I have endorsed and it's pretty hilarious. 90% of my endorsements have been made from the download pop-up, on the same day during my last "modding rush".

sunshinenbrick wrote: This might be very unpopular but could a ratio counter between downloads and endorsements have any help in this particular situation. Later on when a proper well thought out and unexploitative polite paying system is eventually introduced (because it more than likely will) it could be expanded to that as well as a form of quality control.

The way it works, well it gives people a kinda nudge if they are deemed to be abusing the system. A better thought out version of how Steam tried to battle the stealing mod refund situation.

Would not be surprised if this wasn't just a big data collection exercise.

MacAban wrote: @ caffeinatedNetling

Account options > Download History, if you want to correct that. You can even endorse from there.

skinnytecboy wrote: This comment started very nicely.. actually put a smile on my face. I thought to myself "Ah finally they're all playing nicely". Let me dream a little more please :)

P.s. I for one enjoy making mods and playing mods and my motives are purely personal. However, it's always nice to know that people like what you do. Its nice to feel approval even if it isn't asked for.

So spread some love and hit those endorsement buttons my fine furry friends :)

myrrdin35 wrote: With everything that has happened, the very thing you bring up has been on my mind also but in a different way. I'm a mod user, I've tried so many times to make a mod but my brain just can't wrap around that CK. I love what mod authors have brought to my gaming and many times in surprising ways. The problem is I have limited ways to give feedback to mod authors. I can hit the "Endorse" button and/or make a
post on the mod page that usually gets buried very quickly. Neither of these options is ideal for mod authors and users.

I think the Nexus needs to take some time and make the site more user friendly. Right now we have the Top 100 (useless, same mods forever), the hot files (highlights some popular new mods, but they are gone too quickly), and then files of the month (which is buried on the side of the page and not prominent). I think a couple of things can be done so more mods get some exposure and helps us the mod
users interact with you guys the makers.

One, add a review area to the mod pages. And I mean real reviews not just your mod is great or it sucks. Talk about technical stuff, if a quest mod how long did it take, if a texture pack did it look good, and so on. Also make it so we can follow reviewers. Say someone is really good and I can trust their feedback, I would love a way to follow their reviews.

Two, a mod spotlight. It can be an old mod, new one, big or small. Just something that is different, works and could be a good addition to someones game. This could definately highlight some lesser known or older mods that people never new existed.

Three, an area where mod users could upload their mod lists with notes on what kind of playthrough they are for and how well the mods work together and maybe installation notes if needed. Say I wanted a survivalist playthrough or maybe a hardcore your gonna die one or a very well put together texture overhaul. I mean how many times have you seen people say recommend me some mods, but its never that simple. This would definately give more exposure to more mod makers. Also it would give people a base to work from.

Four, Make the files of the month more prominent. There usually is a mix of different mods that people are voting for and it deserves some better screen real
estate.

There are probably many more, these are just the ones I could think of right now. I don't know if any of this is doable or not. But I do know as a mod user, it is frustrating right now trying to give proper feedback. I will say mod makers and mod users should always try to show respect for each other. I told my children when they started using the internet. Remember, the written word doesn't show your face and emotion when you are talking to someone. If you are upset or angry or frustrated, go ahead and type what you want, but don't hit the send button. Walk away for 5 minutes, cool off, think. Then come back read what you wrote and if it doesn't sound right, delete it or rewrite your point in a much calmer way. Communication is not easy to do right, so taking a little time will benefit all in the end.

stanleemojo wrote: Many of these DL's are from several countries and more than likely do not speak/read English. I've done this in the past with a Russian modding site, not able to understand a word of it, managing to obtain the mods :\

NDDragor wrote: In my opinion its laziness or just not understanding what the endorsement button means. Many people think that it wont change anything if the endorse or leave a comment but I recently uploaded my first mod and for me each endorsment or feedback which my mod gets is a signal that people are liking my mod and that I should keep up my work. Plus all feedbacks (negative and positive) are helping me to work on my mod.

I wont say that I am always leaving a comment or endorsing a file but I really try to make the authors understand that their mods are good if I enjoyed them or point out bugs and issues if there were some. I have played 34 mods until now and endorsed 26 of them. And I have to agree with others about not endorsing downloaded mods because I haven't tried them. Right now I have 45 mods on my list which I have to play.

Well... to make it short. You wont overstrain yourself by clicking on the endorsement button or writing a small comment and the author will most likely appreciate your feedback.

skinnytecboy wrote: @myrrdin35

Regarding help from the modding community, perhaps you're not looking in the right place. There are amazing forums here that are a wealth of knowledge and people willing to help unlock it's secrets. .. there's also Google ;)

I really like your review idea btw.

Primalsplit wrote: I think mannygt has the right of it here. More people should endorse mods. I admit I wasn't paying much attention with my endorsements (mainly because of the 45 minutes limit). I download a mod, test/play it and then I either be done with testing it within 10 minutes or I just play it for 1-2 hours, sometimes for 3 hours and more. I just forgot endorsing it.

I hope this will be a good lesson to all of us. We as a community should look after each other more. Personally speaking, lesson learned. I advice everyone to be more sensitive towards this subject.

MrGrymReaper wrote: @mannygt - Did you make any endorsements during the painful growth period of the Nexus by chance please?

Cause if you did or accidently clicked on the feature for the endorse/undorse during a hic-cup they may have been lost or undone accidentally. It happended to me several times in the past with my slow internet connection.

As a result I was wondering whether the admin has somewhere on the server which keeps a record of endorsements especially those which were endorsed and quickly suddenly un-endorsed.

The reason being I now there's a lot of mods to endorse and/or vote for some of which I now can't post a comment in (following the previous crisis we went through).

So if an admin could please go through the locked or hidden comment mods which I have download and endorsed to please a word of thanks. It would be much appreciated!

Dirtysocks wrote: I'm not the poster child for feedback on mods myself, I endorse the mods I use and kudos the authors I truly believe made a fantastic mod, however I do believe personally that your no. of downloads is a much more impressive way to tally your mods success, endorsements are a bonus

In any game only a fraction are active in the forums and chats as such, this does not mean for a second that the remainder do not enjoy the game, they are just less vocal about their excitement

Fowldragon wrote: how do people come to conclusions without citing the supporting evidence...

FalSkaar has over 1 million downloads according to the Author..People have commented and critiqued it and AV has made extensive revisions..but Ungrateful? You've ignored all the acclaim and the fact that Falskaar is overwhelmingly if not Universally considered ICONIC as a DLC size mod...

If I tell my kid that he needs to work on this or that, am I unloving, not proud? If His Eng teacher gives him a B- on an ESSAY should he be justified in assuming that EVERYONE hates him?

If you want to make conclusions about endorsements you might consider that POLLING people to get their opinions is a PROACTIVE method, whereas the system in place to ENDORSE mods is completely PASSIVE in its approach.

zcul wrote: Hi MannyGT,

I fully second this and your previous post. I checked the endorsement rate for some other mods - the same 5 to 10 % maximum (?????).

After installing and running a mod, it takes a minute or 2 for returning to the modder's site and just say "thanks for your work" and maybe some thoughts on it, especially if one keeps it installed, because he/she likes it. All that is a small and humble gesture in return and in comparison with the time and work a modder invested to make a mod and share it with the community to enhance and improve the game for all and - for free.
And the best, doing so as a user does hurt in any way - I tried that myself.

b6lph6gor6 wrote: I endorse every mod I like, meaning every mod that I don't uninstall immediately after testing it. If I had to estimate, I'd say I like (and endorse) about 80% of the mods I download.

Although I have to admit that I'm lazy as well. Since I can't endorse the mod immediately after trying it (I like my game to feel vanilla, so I mostly use simple, lightweight mods that don't require a long period of testing for me to determine if I like and keep using them) I often forget to endorse the files. If it weren't for the NMM, half of the mods I use would still wait for my endorsement.

Gamwich wrote: Actually, 10% is considered a very high percentage on Nexus. That's something that I've learned over my time here.

If you can crack the 10% barrier, then you've really accomplished something. ;)

meredithmiles wrote: I do creative works in another fan-based community, and the 10 percent response is a well-known ratio there as well. If you hit about 10% kudos/thanks/likes etc. of the 100% that downloaded your work, you are doing well. I've been watching the numbers for almost 15 years, and that is a solid, persistent statistic.

I've always thought it was odd, how consistent it was.

Personally, I use endorsements as an actual personal endorsement. I'm saying "I've checked this out and suggest it to others". So I try to be sure I've actually used it and it was reasonably solid. Sometimes I will give kudos as encouragement when an otherwise worthy mod I won't really use much gets panned or ignored, even if I won't use it for long myself.

One thing I want to point out to Nexus members, if I can borrow your post to do it:

There are quite a few amazingly kind and helpful people who haunt comment threads and do impromptu tech support for mods around the Nexus. Both modders and mod users owe them a debt, and I wonder about appropriate ways to express collective appreciation for them. Any ideas?

MisterGibson wrote: If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

Jack Wow wrote: Just like FavouredSoul just said:-
"Its hard enough getting people to click a button to endorse a mod, let alone get people to use a donate button to give me the 5c they would rather keep."
- Me? - 1700 endorsements so far. Best I start putting my money where my mouth is. With 3600 hours of playing Skyrim under the belt, I know how much I owe the Nexus and the modding community.

greggorypeccary wrote: A lot of people seem to want to tell other people the reasons why they should mod and what the wrong reasons are. It must be nice to know everything.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @greggorypeccary

I completely agree.

Azulyn wrote: If you want to see entitled, work a customer service job.
as someone else said, modders owe the community nothing, and the people downloading said mods owe modders nothing. If you're sick of your hobby then stop uploading your work. Easy and simple as that. Want to get paid for your work? Go into game design or get involved with a gaming company.
Better yet, just wait until the new Elder Scrolls is released. I'm sure they're going to implement a paid mod system in future installments. This was just their messy test run.
I won't bother playing future Bethesda games in that case. Sorry if that makes me sound like a cheap, entitled asshole, but I can't afford to piss away all my money just to make the base game enjoyable and bug free. Games are expensive enough as is.
There's a reason I refuse to purchase skins and other micro-transactions for the games I play.

arxerisdam wrote: what about we get a i dont like this mod button?

and see how popular a mod really is, that would be fair.

greggorypeccary wrote: My prediction is the end of modding as we know it. The is just no incentive any more. I think more and more modders will find outlets for their creativity and move on. The people that keep saying " if you don't like it don't do it" will get their wish. Imagine your loadorders with only official dlc's. It won't be the greed of the modders that causes this, it's the greed and apathy of the community combines with outright usery of companies that really do already profit from mods that will cause the end.

Azulyn wrote: lol melodramatic much?
people need to hush with this modding will end nonsense. Even if every single talented mod author left right now, there will always be fresh faces to fill their spot.

greggorypeccary wrote: Don't think things can't change. Change is constant. Once people don't feel appreciated they will look for it elsewhere. The more the evidence adds up that the community is largely un grateful for the work modders do the more the likelihood that they will move to something that will satisfy them in some way. Add to that the fact that others are profiting from their work but they are somehow supposed to be above all that and you are practicaly driving them away. The best you'll be able to hope for is the inexperienced modder that wants to cut his teeth. This could have been avoided if the community nurtured modders for the fruit they bore and maybe if the nexus acknowledged how well they are doing for themselves providing those mods that modders should not profit from.

dasgones wrote: I'm one of those @$$holes. I've endorsed very few mods here and have downloaded many. I honestly thought my time playing skyrim would be only a few months, but since i fell into the community i've spent more time applying mods than playing with them. i'm picky and freeloading. This whole conflict has opened my eyes, however, and i'm going to be a lot more responsible in displaying my appreciation. this goes for almost all users that know what has happened. I really am apologetic to you because i'm becoming a bit of a fan of your work. it's impressive. I think ELFX look 4 times better than RLO. Immersive Helgen is incredible and your ENB presets are pure effin' magic. I was too absorbed in pleasing my enjoyment of the game to appreciate what was actually going on to make it that way. but I recognize this now. I honestly think that the best thing to come out of the last week in our community is that we now know what we look like. While I support free mods (i'm a freeloader because i'm cheap) I realize that the work I appreciate comes at a freely offered price. I need to respect that and endorse and get more involved. This week brought a lot of people off the fence. I do believe I need to be more generous in supporting mod authors, and I'm sorry I haven't been. this is something that everyone will see a lot of in the near future.

pigtailsboy wrote: You saying the interne... I mean nexus community is ungrateful? Are you saying that peop... I mean nexus community members don't vote? Are you saying that Huma... I mean nexus members are inherently flawed?

Do you have a blanket point that could easily be applied to the larger civilization of the Human race?

Leonord wrote: I dindt even learn what endorsing means after two years of modding skyrim. Others just forget or are too lazy to do it. Thats the reason why.

Spencerbilodeau wrote: zzjay... I REALLY dig your mods. I would endorse them all day long.

There are plenty of mods I've downloaded multiple times, but can only endorse once.
Also just because i download a mod, it doesn't mean I'll like it, most of them I uninstall.
Your whole reasoning is based on the false belief that if you download something it means you are going to use it and just steal it for yourself.
The mods I use and enjoy I endorse and most people do the same. But that's a lot smaller group than all the downloaded mods.

Honestly your use of data in this post is so wrong and bleeds form so many wounds there is no point in countering what you were actually trying to say, but if you really want to know what the community is like check the forums. I usually post something there about the mods I download. Usually something nice.

[dasgones]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509, #24742524, #24742564, #24742579, #24742634, #24742744, #24742799, #24742804, #24742964, #24743039, #24743319, #24743439, #24743614, #24743699, #24743779, #24743799, #24743809, #24743899, #24743969, #24744239, #24744704, #24746029, #24747899, #24749729, #24750024, #24751049, #24751199, #24766859, #24767519, #24767764, #24770099 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.

foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"

I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.

digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.

Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.

By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.

We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.

foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"

This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they should

Korodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.

Before this all happened of course :P

EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...

rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?

phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.

No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......

I don't owe you anything.

And you don't owe me anything.

That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.

Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.

I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.

I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>

sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic

But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.

The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.

foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.

Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.

You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).

Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.

flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic

IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.

Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.

It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."

People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.

Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.

Bye I guess.

-nlm (-.-) mln-

foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."

And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.

sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?

Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.

foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).

rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.

flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?

flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster

Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.

@ Korodic

apologies

phantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.

If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.

I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.

And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.

so get. off. your. high. horse.

foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres

WarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.

Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.

Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.

That is my take on it, hate me if you will.

Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.

From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.

A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.

This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.

Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.

foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much to

jet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.

foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?

jfisha wrote: Korodic,

Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?

Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God

phantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"

I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.

And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.

But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.

But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.

Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.

Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!

OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl

I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?

You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?

A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).

I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.

uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.

foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?

BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."

You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.

There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.

While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.

There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.

When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.

Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5

This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.

I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.

foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."

this says it all.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.

foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorry

fftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God"

I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.

IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.

Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.

I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.

I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.

Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.

RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.

Don't cross my people.

phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.

Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.

We done?

foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "


I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlash

Korodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?

On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.

Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."

Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.

But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.

MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5

My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.

Ventry wrote: @foster xbl

Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?

If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.

Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."


Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?

Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.

The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.

jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.

I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.

Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.

foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"

the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"

It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).

jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?

Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745

What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.

If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.

I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.

I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.

WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.

Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.

Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step

Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.

Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.

foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again

second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.

700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kit

phantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?

NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.

You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.

Am I getting through to you at all?

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.

Ventry wrote: @foster

and I applaud you.

do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.

Can you see the damage it did?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.

Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.

This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?

fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.

foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76

you got through to me with your very first post trust me

now let me try one last time to get through to you.

The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)

Kodoric

Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.

But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.

phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "

I agree 100%.

I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.

Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen.

Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.

Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.

WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.

jfisha wrote: Foster

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods

True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.

YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods

This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.

Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods

Ummm... they made the game?


Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.

Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :P

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.

So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:

Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.

If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.

Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profits

anonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.

No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.

Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".

The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.

Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".

Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.

That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.

Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.

Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?

Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.

For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.

Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.

Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.

If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.

And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.

MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70%-75% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.

Psijonica wrote: The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.

Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.

Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.

Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.

The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.

Free modding 4-ever.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Robok Agreed

Unless there is some confusion I am just debating paying for mods in general not just Skyrim mods. Skyrim should really have been left alone as it has been out for years and years.

In general topic however, everything created is somewhat based off of something else so that topic is kind of a slippery slope to use in a debate.

BadYeti wrote: It saddens me to see this bridge burning by mod authors even in the aftermath. The monetizing is gone but the well is already poisoned. :(

EnaiSiaion wrote: When mod authors are allowed to profit from their work, people will mod ONLY for money.

Have you looked at your phone's app store lately? The Porkshop was meant to be exactly this model. Given the "quality" of the first wave of mods, which were all Jim f*#@ing Sterling Son level bad except for SkyUI, it is not a stretch to see a future where anyone actually attempting to use the system for its intended purpose and offer advanced mods would get drowned in a deluge of s#*! designed to make precisely $400.

Lateraliss wrote: Warfighter, it's already been like that for years. There are modders who removed their mods from Nexus because of conflicts with the community. There have been modders that removed their mods from Nexus because people weren't worshiping them enough. It's an endless cycle. The point is there is always someone else that comes along and makes a great mod that replaces what we lost.

My belief if once a person decides that money is more important than the hobby, they focus instead on what can make them the most money instead of what would make the best quality, and that's what will end up destroying the modding community. Hundreds of low quality paid mods coming out like an assembly line. Why work on one huge mod that will get you 5 bucks when you can create 100 retextures in the same amount of time and sell them for 99 cents each.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: It looks like you don't understand my position, and I don't understand yours, so I will bow out of this discussion as I don't think anything productive will come out of it.

I will parrot the sentiment of another poster, that at least one good thing will come out of this mess: it will cull the modding community of certain types of individuals. And as history has shown, when one modder leaves, it doesn't take long for another to take their place.

Having said that, you should be thanked for what you have given to the community thus far, and I wish you well in your future endeavors.

jfisha wrote: @foster xbl

I guess that's where we're getting off track then. You're allowed to profit with your mod, I don't care.

However, I think you're complaining about this on the wrong forum. Steam is where all the death threats and really bad vitriol was coming from. Sure, there's been some here but for the most part, it's been cordial. Hell, look at Chesko's Frostfall comments. It's an over whelming amount of support.

What's confusing me is why are you on a site that has repeatedly stated it will never charge for mods and is committed to making sure the mods here remain free, complaining about why you can't charge for mods? We're all friends here and all, but I just don't get it. Go after those little bastards on Steam

Inky84 wrote: i dont know about the other people but jfisha is right.. i have no problem paying or donating to YOU but the way valve and beth set it up. you would prolly not see a dime. 25% is outrageous. plus the fact that your mods would just end up on pirates bay makes it more likely. i think that if nexus made a wallet similar to steam. (reason for this is cause i have a life too and i cant go to my paypal everytime and wonder/be worried if i can donate every time i like a mod.) that said.. i also think that donate button should also be in a better place both on nexus and steam. that way when they see it..it gives them a sense of morality.

just a thought =)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Developers will sell just the sdk on its own before long then say, make your your own goddam games! Ha :)

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I'm going after no-one.
I'm here because this is where I post my content
(I have some items on steam, but always with a direct link to the updated version here on the nexus, and even then only like 11 of my mods were posted there)
I couldn't care less about the children on the steam community,
This is where a posted my work
This is where I read the uproar over paid mods
This is where I read the attacks on authors
This is where I read the praise for the program being shut down
This is where I wanted to post my views

sunshinenbrick wrote: There has been a lot of praise for author's as well.

EDIT: Might I add that a lot of the other parts of the community have been more or less forgotten about. Debugging, Moderating, Testing, Troubleshooting, Programming, 3d Modelling, Boris (he is in a class of his own), All the other tool makers and "external" content creators that contribute their work.

Kudos to you all.

jfisha wrote: @foster xbl

I'm not trying to shew you away. I guess we're just reading different mod authors comments.

This was a small battle between two ways of thinking. Your side lost, for now, but what I'm just trying to reiterate to you is that some of us... scratch, that; a lot of us understand perfectly well what you want and while we disagree, I can't hold it against you. Making money doing something you like? That's the f*#@in dream!

Here's an idea; why don't we just discuss ways where perhaps we can meet in the middle?

Lordkabal26 wrote: Bethesda should man up and allow Mod Creators to setup Patreon pages. Currently Bethesda doesn't allow those sorts of donation pages where the donation page is for the mod or mod team they only allow personal donations.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Such a key point, totally agree!!

theblueshark wrote:
funny thing is, I voted against the paid mod because valve is gets a bigger share than the modder.. just saying...

CaughtInTheCrossfire wrote: The paid model was unsuccessful. You may have made some awesome mods but if people don't want to pay for them, that isn't bullying, abuse or trolling. That's the market at work.

...and I'm sick of the youtube analogy. Modding and youtubing aren't equivalent. Youtubers may be making money but no one is charging the viewers anything to consume their product.

digitaltrucker wrote: I've said it before and I'll sat it again:

All Bethesda would have had to do to begin with was remove the 'mods must be free' clause from the CK. It would have changed absolutely NOTHING for them, and the ball would be squarely in our court. I have confidence the market would sort it out, most likely by just adding a pay extension to the system already in place.

Utterly simple, and I find it hard to believe that between TWO well established successful companies nobody considered it.

YngvieMalmsteen wrote: Korodic, i have 2000 hours playing chivalry medieval warfare, because i enjoy it. i didnt get any money from doing it, but i dont regret it, because i enjoyed doing it. people mod because they enjoy doing it. if you didnt enjoy the 2000 hours you spent in the creation kit like i enjoyed the 2000 hours ive spent in chivalry medieval warfare, you making more money than i have doing it since you got one donation, then why did you do it in the first place if it wasnt to make money?

EnaiSiaion wrote: Yes, when you dangle money in front of people and then take it away, they feel they missed out on something.

foster xbl wrote: "
...and I'm sick of the youtube analogy. Modding and youtubing aren't equivalent. Youtubers may be making money but no one is charging the viewers anything to consume their product. "


Sick of it or not....if you're making money from the videos you create which showcase Skyrim mods....you're making money from Skyrim mods... how is this different?

Anyways, said enough on the matter. The two sides of this debate aren't going to change the other minds.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Google are in all sorts of grey area on this with pretty much everything. But they are rich and powerful.

hafizlordfeast wrote: You do realize the issue of paid mods are so many? So you are saying that copycat mods deserve to get paid? Do you think mods that are clearly not official DLC's that could broke the game, without Bethesda's support, deserve to be paid? Do you even think buggy mods deserve to be paid?

Donation is the only way to provide the payment gratitude the modders deserve. That's the only creative motivation that he or she will need, for financial reason. You know that YouTube doesn't give you money out of nowhere, right?

If you care enough about the modders to be paid, why don't you give them the money they deserve, because I know not all of us are rich people who can just give people ten dollars on every mod we want to get? I guess you are then? We expect free mods so we get free mods, and you already know the downside of having a mod in the first place, bugs and conflict, and you want us to pay for that?

We won't complain about the paywall if there's no problem to mods in the first place. Why don't you at least THINK before spouting your naive nobility towards all of us. It's not as simple to contribute to modders as if we are rich men. It is Bethesda and Valve responsibility to actually give financial help to them in the first place, not us, and they even get the most cut instead of modders. You think that's fair?

For the love of god, if you want to help them so much, GIVE them money, more money because they deserve it. Are you capable enough to do that or you're just ordering us to do what you want us to do?: Pay them, pay them all. I don't, because I don't have the luxury of giving them monthly salary, they modders know what they are doing is not a job, its a hobby, no matter how hard the hobby is.

If they feel it isn't enough for financial benefits, go find a job, or better yet, go find a job at Bethesda. We don't want to pay for mods because we know the positive and negative of mods, some weights the other. Common sense that should be implemented in your brain before commenting this naivety.

Wolvenlight wrote: I'll start off by saying I am not a content creator, not a modder, not an uploader. The most I've ever done was make UT2k4 maps, and I only released those among friends. I've always wanted to try modding Skyrim, but I've never had the time.

I do, however, download and browse the mods on this site constantly. It amazes me how much time, energy, work, and skill people have put into modding. And I'm glad for it. As a strict consumer, do I want to have to pay money for something cool I see and want? No, who does? Do I think people should be compensated for their work if they so choose to? Yes, who wouldn't? And if it was good enough, sure, I'd pay for a few if the prices were fair. I'd decide whether they were or not for myself.

Many people here are throwing gentle insults at each other in the form of calling people entitled hypocrites. Much of the time, both these words are being used incorrectly. Hypocrites means saying you have convictions but you actually don't, or saying something and then doing the opposite. Downloading free mods but charging for yours? Not hypocrisy. (That would be pirating paid mods but trying to charge for yours.) Entitled means thinking you deserve special treatment. Consumers who want modding to remain "pure" aren't these things, because they want that for everyone. Modders who would like to be paid are not automatically these things, as they would want these things for everyone, and they'd work in a free market, so the people would choose whether or not they want to pay for their work. If they don't, they'd lower the price, or make it free. Some consumers here, however, seem to believe that modding should always be free, and that those who want payment are greedy.

That's the real hypocrisy.

If someone makes a mod and wants to charge for it, that is their work and their prerogative. If someone doesn't want to pay for it, that is also their prerogative. So far, nobody is entitled, nobody is a hypocrite, and nobody is greedy (unless they're obviously overcharging.)

The second a consumer demands that the mods always be free, that is greed. *On the part of the consumer.* Sorry, but it most likely is. A modder could spend ten thousand hours on something and release it for free while another spends the same amount of time expecting payment. Neither are in the wrong. What's wrong is thinking one get's to dictate how another spends their own time. Paid content providers don't need your input, just like you don't need to buy their mod in the first place. They weren't demanding anything. But the consumers who shouted at them for wanting payment? They were the ones making demands, demands I would argue were born from greed. If not greed, then illogical thinking.

That's not the same as those consumers who are afraid of what paid mods could bring. It's a legitimate fear to have that quality modding might drop off if people don't have access to the utility of an open source environment. Not being able to afford all the mods you'd want is also a good fear to have. I would like the modding scene to remain free, because I like free mods. Tropical Skyrim for 0 dollars? Yes please! (Soolie pls update?) Would I pay for it? Actually, I very well might have thrown a dollar his way if I needed to do so to access it. I doubt Boris would charge $49.99 for his content, (seriously, that's such an exaggeration I'd call it fear mongering if I'd heard it from Fox News.) If that were the case, someone would come along with something similar for cheaper/free, or he'd lower the price himself once sales dropped off.

All of that isn't really my point though. In the end, if you're afraid of where this could go, say so. And if you're going to point out flaws, be sure to point out the right ones. Preferably the one's you aren't guilty of yourselves.

As for the content creators here. Don't worry about the vitriol that the loud vocal minority are throwing your way. You all have many more silent supporters (or filthy neutrals,) who actually know how to keep a level head, even if we disagree with you. I don't think you're greedy, I don't think you're hypocrites, I don't think you're entitled. The only thing I think you should do is update the Tropical Overhaul Mod.

I mean, uh. Keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. That one.

KChan wrote: Alright, a lot of people are missing some important pieces of this puzzle. We're all getting worked up over our various perspectives and conflicting ideas of what's right or wrong as far as modding is concerned, but most people aren't really stopping to think about each other.

Forget the trolls, forget the people that have unfair expectations or feel that they're deserving of everything you've got and want to have it for free.

What happened to our community? The very fact we're sitting here fuming, arguing and getting upset about this situation should very clearly demonstrate that the whole thing was/is/will be a farce. The mere presence of this system ignited a spark that burnt lines between us and separated us.

People are more than owed something in gratitude for their work, but to what extent? What's worth our money? Is what you made really worth so much? At the same time, for the other side, do you really feel that something they made is worth so little?

Those questions underlie a core problem with the idea of monetizing mods. Who's to say what you made is really worth what you want for it? Yeah, sure, Falskaar would be more than worth the cost of a hamburger, but I can't compare the cost of my next meal to the value of a digital sword that someone threw together just because they can make a few dollars off of it.

I understand that we could all very well be living under hardship, and that this modding could give you that little extra that could let you eat decent food or pay for a tank of gas. If what you made is of a sufficient quality that I feel you deserve it, I'm more than willing to drop $20 on you as a way of saying "thank you." I didn't even realize it was an OPTION until there was a mention of it in the news, and I'm sure many others didn't realize it either.

However, we're all getting caught up in the stress and the drama, and it's keeping us from remembering some of the more important people.

I guarantee you that the people so vocal in complaining in either direction aren't the ones that should be viewed as important. The vitriol spewed back and forth proves that they aren't worth a second of our attention. The ones who are important, the ones sitting back and watching what we all love burn, are often the ones who are silent during all of this.

Can you honestly say that there are none who truly appreciate what you do, or what you've done? Do you honestly feel that way? I'll say that, without all of you, Skyrim would be nothing to me. So, why do you forget those of us who really care, when faced with such criticism? I'm sure many of the people who download these mods, enjoy playing these mods, and subscribe to these mods really do appreciate what you've done.

In the end, both sides really do seem to be missing the point in all this. I would love to see you all compensated, but this isn't the way to do it. I'd have no problem paying for some of these mods, but not like this. The flaws with this system are too obvious, and the outcry that has resulted should prove that without my barely coherent rambling.

Seren4XX wrote: I think Vesuvius, Lateraliss, and KChan make some very good points about this whole system. I especially like KChan's observant opinion, but I lean mostly towards the anti-paywall points the former two have given.

Modder here, and not for paid mods any time soon. Maybe with a more honest, better-moderated system. But out of the blue like this with so many negatives as opposed to before it couldn't work. I think Beth/Valve could start off with better communication towards the modding community itself if they'll remain hellbent on getting this system out there.

Xenoshi wrote: Writers of fanfiction -do- get to sell their work. This is a fallacious stance to take.

"Welcome to Kindle Worlds, a place for you to publish fan fiction inspired by popular books, shows, movies, comics, music, and games. With Kindle Worlds, you can write new stories based on featured Worlds, engage an audience of readers, and earn royalties. Amazon Publishing has secured licenses from Warner Bros. Television Group's Alloy Entertainment for Gossip Girl, Pretty Little Liars, and The Vampire Diaries; Valiant Entertainment for Archer & Armstrong, Bloodshot, Harbinger, Shadowman, and X-O Manowar; Hugh Howey's Silo Saga; Barry Eisler's John Rain novels; Blake Crouch's Wayward Pines series; and The Foreworld Saga by Neal Stephenson, Greg Bear, Mark Teppo, Eric Bear, Joseph Brassey, Nicole Galland, and Cooper Moo. Licenses for more Worlds are on the way. "

Reddome666 wrote: I can't speak for the community, but for me the greatest fear i had with this whole debackel was the aftereffects it could have. How long before all games have this feature, how long before the devs/valve takes 90%? how long before there's an mandatory price for all workshop items? How long before free mods on free sites get taken down under copyright strikes? I dont think that anyone wants mods to turn into DLC without quality control and if its anyone that can make that happen, its Valve.
And... you're right it sucks that modders can't make any money apart from the rare donation. But i assure you, if youtubers started charging for viewing their videos, they would be out of a job.

Sein_Schatten wrote: You think this won't come to pass? A-Net is making globs of money with their Black Lion Trading Company (you can buy stuff for small change). ;) They are at 300+ employees IIRC. Be assured this was a testing ground. Feedback was given and the next iteration won't cause such a storm. ;)

Arlen1000 wrote: No - it was not as clear cut as you make it out to be. There were many different layers to this debacle. First and foremost was that the skyrim modding community was already solidly established to the point where code,resources etc etc were shared out freely to the point that almost every major mod had dependencies on others work. secondly, while I have absolutely no issue with a creator being compensated for their work, the split was atrociously unfair and the argument that "25% is better than 0%" holds absolutely no water as what you would be the precursor for is exclusivity of mods to one hosting site for a price. Basically selling your soul for a meager 25 cents on the dollar to the detriment of everyone. If this endeavor actually worked then it would spell the end of free sharing of resources and codes, the death of sites like Nexus, and the empowering of Bethesda to make broken games and still profit offf the player/mod base with no cost to them.

foster xbl wrote: So again I have to ask.... How is it your place to define to me what is a fair spilt on my efforts? ( and of course I don't mean you specifically, I speaking in general)
This is a ridiculous cop out IMO, if I agree to those terms, in advance before posting content, how am I being robbed?
As I asked before, do these people using this excuse apply it everywhere else in their life?
Guess I shouldn't buy Skyrim in the first place because the actual people who designed it didn't recieve 100% of its profits, right?
Do these same people actually think the real designers of Skyrim;
The guys making the models, textures, script, source, sound, lighting, even menus were paid anywhere close to 25% of the games actual sales?

sunshinenbrick wrote: No but they probably get health care and a pension plan.

Fowldragon wrote: Foster,
Paid mods for Skyrim will not work because a DECADE of modders who posted their various ideas and creations led to others who took those creative journeys even further...Invariably this community effort was freely given as you point out 1 donation out of 100k downloads ...nobody was thinking that great amounts of money would be made by anyone. VALVE flipped the script and this entire dynamic will be forever changed.

NTT is one of my favorite mods but it was influenced by other work. So at the end of the day, it isn't that you don't deserve something...the problem is there doesn't seem to be a FAIR solution to WHO deserves what. and It ultimately bacame apparent to Valve Bethesda that Pay-toPlay and SKYRIM CAN'T work

I think it is inevitable that Pay mods will come...that Game developers will not have to delay releases a year, 2...3 . They will simply open it to modders and because there isn't a DECADE of potential challenges by other modders to contend with, the System will flow as they mistakenly envisioned it should have with Skyrim.

Don't take this whole event so hard. Looking at MannyGT's post earlier, about the ratio of downloads to endorsements, The people that are endorsing are the real community. to add more, being a freeloader, i supported free mods. but I support your right to feel like you deserve some compensation and I do agree with you to a level. now, realistically, consumers like to save money, and the moochers (like myself), bought the game in large for the game itself, and then for the mods. After I found how awesome the mods are, I really want the hours worth of user generated content that comes for free with the game. This whole week has raised my awareness of how much modders put into making them. Realisticly, they deserve compensation and I will love to help now that i'm aware. however the push was made too fast without proper notice. in comparison this is still the amateur league of game-developing. When the money gets involved we go pro. And in pro we start to play by bigger rules, and I honestly think nobody knows what those rules will be as of yet. I have no clue. I don't think anyone really knows because they really haven't been made, but the way it was implemented and the lack of transparency was like drafting a rec league teen into the Major leagues without telling him the fine print. That is honestly where complications and real problems occur. even Bethesda said they were experimenting with large details in their blog. the skyrim community was too well developed and too large to change 4 years of growth in a week with less than a month's partial-notice.

[phantompally76]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704, #24755774, #24755999, #24756039, #24756394, #24756489, #24756599, #24756669, #24756944, #24757404, #24757709, #24757794, #24757819, #24757959, #24758109, #24758244, #24758549, #24758604, #24758779, #24758789, #24759069, #24760799, #24760824, #24765454, #24765899, #24766564, #24766884, #24767039, #24767164, #24769074, #24769604, #24770129, #24770469, #24770524, #24770899, #24771494, #24771729 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but cańt understand you...

donsolidad wrote: @mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

The only thing those 10 percents show is that the endorsement system is inadequate as a praise measurement, and is not something you should use as a base for your argument.

sdupp wrote: @ mannygt Agree with your post, but i don't think it was the only reason for some modders to sell mods as a greedy modder.

caffeinatedNetling wrote: Regarding the protest mod having lots of endorsements: Get people emotionally involved with the process of making the mod noticed, and of freaking course they're going to endorse.

macintroll wrote: It's just show that 90% of users are just leechers ^^

caffeinatedNetling wrote: I typically have "modding sessions" that literally last for days, going straight from vanilla to the setup I'll play through the following months (without even so much as updating anything, I lost too many saves already).
If I could endorse the mods I download in these sessions when I have them open, I would, but by the time the countdown before the endorsements are enabled reaches zero, I can't even remember what I have downloaded anymore.

EDIT: I went to my profile to actually look at what I have endorsed and it's pretty hilarious. 90% of my endorsements have been made from the download pop-up, on the same day during my last "modding rush".

sunshinenbrick wrote: This might be very unpopular but could a ratio counter between downloads and endorsements have any help in this particular situation. Later on when a proper well thought out and unexploitative polite paying system is eventually introduced (because it more than likely will) it could be expanded to that as well as a form of quality control.

The way it works, well it gives people a kinda nudge if they are deemed to be abusing the system. A better thought out version of how Steam tried to battle the stealing mod refund situation.

Would not be surprised if this wasn't just a big data collection exercise.

MacAban wrote: @ caffeinatedNetling

Account options > Download History, if you want to correct that. You can even endorse from there.

skinnytecboy wrote: This comment started very nicely.. actually put a smile on my face. I thought to myself "Ah finally they're all playing nicely". Let me dream a little more please :)

P.s. I for one enjoy making mods and playing mods and my motives are purely personal. However, it's always nice to know that people like what you do. Its nice to feel approval even if it isn't asked for.

So spread some love and hit those endorsement buttons my fine furry friends :)

myrrdin35 wrote: With everything that has happened, the very thing you bring up has been on my mind also but in a different way. I'm a mod user, I've tried so many times to make a mod but my brain just can't wrap around that CK. I love what mod authors have brought to my gaming and many times in surprising ways. The problem is I have limited ways to give feedback to mod authors. I can hit the "Endorse" button and/or make a
post on the mod page that usually gets buried very quickly. Neither of these options is ideal for mod authors and users.

I think the Nexus needs to take some time and make the site more user friendly. Right now we have the Top 100 (useless, same mods forever), the hot files (highlights some popular new mods, but they are gone too quickly), and then files of the month (which is buried on the side of the page and not prominent). I think a couple of things can be done so more mods get some exposure and helps us the mod
users interact with you guys the makers.

One, add a review area to the mod pages. And I mean real reviews not just your mod is great or it sucks. Talk about technical stuff, if a quest mod how long did it take, if a texture pack did it look good, and so on. Also make it so we can follow reviewers. Say someone is really good and I can trust their feedback, I would love a way to follow their reviews.

Two, a mod spotlight. It can be an old mod, new one, big or small. Just something that is different, works and could be a good addition to someones game. This could definately highlight some lesser known or older mods that people never new existed.

Three, an area where mod users could upload their mod lists with notes on what kind of playthrough they are for and how well the mods work together and maybe installation notes if needed. Say I wanted a survivalist playthrough or maybe a hardcore your gonna die one or a very well put together texture overhaul. I mean how many times have you seen people say recommend me some mods, but its never that simple. This would definately give more exposure to more mod makers. Also it would give people a base to work from.

Four, Make the files of the month more prominent. There usually is a mix of different mods that people are voting for and it deserves some better screen real
estate.

There are probably many more, these are just the ones I could think of right now. I don't know if any of this is doable or not. But I do know as a mod user, it is frustrating right now trying to give proper feedback. I will say mod makers and mod users should always try to show respect for each other. I told my children when they started using the internet. Remember, the written word doesn't show your face and emotion when you are talking to someone. If you are upset or angry or frustrated, go ahead and type what you want, but don't hit the send button. Walk away for 5 minutes, cool off, think. Then come back read what you wrote and if it doesn't sound right, delete it or rewrite your point in a much calmer way. Communication is not easy to do right, so taking a little time will benefit all in the end.

stanleemojo wrote: Many of these DL's are from several countries and more than likely do not speak/read English. I've done this in the past with a Russian modding site, not able to understand a word of it, managing to obtain the mods :\

NDDragor wrote: In my opinion its laziness or just not understanding what the endorsement button means. Many people think that it wont change anything if the endorse or leave a comment but I recently uploaded my first mod and for me each endorsment or feedback which my mod gets is a signal that people are liking my mod and that I should keep up my work. Plus all feedbacks (negative and positive) are helping me to work on my mod.

I wont say that I am always leaving a comment or endorsing a file but I really try to make the authors understand that their mods are good if I enjoyed them or point out bugs and issues if there were some. I have played 34 mods until now and endorsed 26 of them. And I have to agree with others about not endorsing downloaded mods because I haven't tried them. Right now I have 45 mods on my list which I have to play.

Well... to make it short. You wont overstrain yourself by clicking on the endorsement button or writing a small comment and the author will most likely appreciate your feedback.

skinnytecboy wrote: @myrrdin35

Regarding help from the modding community, perhaps you're not looking in the right place. There are amazing forums here that are a wealth of knowledge and people willing to help unlock it's secrets. .. there's also Google ;)

I really like your review idea btw.

Primalsplit wrote: I think mannygt has the right of it here. More people should endorse mods. I admit I wasn't paying much attention with my endorsements (mainly because of the 45 minutes limit). I download a mod, test/play it and then I either be done with testing it within 10 minutes or I just play it for 1-2 hours, sometimes for 3 hours and more. I just forgot endorsing it.

I hope this will be a good lesson to all of us. We as a community should look after each other more. Personally speaking, lesson learned. I advice everyone to be more sensitive towards this subject.

MrGrymReaper wrote: @mannygt - Did you make any endorsements during the painful growth period of the Nexus by chance please?

Cause if you did or accidently clicked on the feature for the endorse/undorse during a hic-cup they may have been lost or undone accidentally. It happended to me several times in the past with my slow internet connection.

As a result I was wondering whether the admin has somewhere on the server which keeps a record of endorsements especially those which were endorsed and quickly suddenly un-endorsed.

The reason being I now there's a lot of mods to endorse and/or vote for some of which I now can't post a comment in (following the previous crisis we went through).

So if an admin could please go through the locked or hidden comment mods which I have download and endorsed to please a word of thanks. It would be much appreciated!

Dirtysocks wrote: I'm not the poster child for feedback on mods myself, I endorse the mods I use and kudos the authors I truly believe made a fantastic mod, however I do believe personally that your no. of downloads is a much more impressive way to tally your mods success, endorsements are a bonus

In any game only a fraction are active in the forums and chats as such, this does not mean for a second that the remainder do not enjoy the game, they are just less vocal about their excitement

Fowldragon wrote: how do people come to conclusions without citing the supporting evidence...

FalSkaar has over 1 million downloads according to the Author..People have commented and critiqued it and AV has made extensive revisions..but Ungrateful? You've ignored all the acclaim and the fact that Falskaar is overwhelmingly if not Universally considered ICONIC as a DLC size mod...

If I tell my kid that he needs to work on this or that, am I unloving, not proud? If His Eng teacher gives him a B- on an ESSAY should he be justified in assuming that EVERYONE hates him?

If you want to make conclusions about endorsements you might consider that POLLING people to get their opinions is a PROACTIVE method, whereas the system in place to ENDORSE mods is completely PASSIVE in its approach.

zcul wrote: Hi MannyGT,

I fully second this and your previous post. I checked the endorsement rate for some other mods - the same 5 to 10 % maximum (?????).

After installing and running a mod, it takes a minute or 2 for returning to the modder's site and just say "thanks for your work" and maybe some thoughts on it, especially if one keeps it installed, because he/she likes it. All that is a small and humble gesture in return and in comparison with the time and work a modder invested to make a mod and share it with the community to enhance and improve the game for all and - for free.
And the best, doing so as a user does hurt in any way - I tried that myself.

b6lph6gor6 wrote: I endorse every mod I like, meaning every mod that I don't uninstall immediately after testing it. If I had to estimate, I'd say I like (and endorse) about 80% of the mods I download.

Although I have to admit that I'm lazy as well. Since I can't endorse the mod immediately after trying it (I like my game to feel vanilla, so I mostly use simple, lightweight mods that don't require a long period of testing for me to determine if I like and keep using them) I often forget to endorse the files. If it weren't for the NMM, half of the mods I use would still wait for my endorsement.

Gamwich wrote: Actually, 10% is considered a very high percentage on Nexus. That's something that I've learned over my time here.

If you can crack the 10% barrier, then you've really accomplished something. ;)

meredithmiles wrote: I do creative works in another fan-based community, and the 10 percent response is a well-known ratio there as well. If you hit about 10% kudos/thanks/likes etc. of the 100% that downloaded your work, you are doing well. I've been watching the numbers for almost 15 years, and that is a solid, persistent statistic.

I've always thought it was odd, how consistent it was.

Personally, I use endorsements as an actual personal endorsement. I'm saying "I've checked this out and suggest it to others". So I try to be sure I've actually used it and it was reasonably solid. Sometimes I will give kudos as encouragement when an otherwise worthy mod I won't really use much gets panned or ignored, even if I won't use it for long myself.

One thing I want to point out to Nexus members, if I can borrow your post to do it:

There are quite a few amazingly kind and helpful people who haunt comment threads and do impromptu tech support for mods around the Nexus. Both modders and mod users owe them a debt, and I wonder about appropriate ways to express collective appreciation for them. Any ideas?

MisterGibson wrote: If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

Jack Wow wrote: Just like FavouredSoul just said:-
"Its hard enough getting people to click a button to endorse a mod, let alone get people to use a donate button to give me the 5c they would rather keep."
- Me? - 1700 endorsements so far. Best I start putting my money where my mouth is. With 3600 hours of playing Skyrim under the belt, I know how much I owe the Nexus and the modding community.

greggorypeccary wrote: A lot of people seem to want to tell other people the reasons why they should mod and what the wrong reasons are. It must be nice to know everything.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @greggorypeccary

I completely agree.

Azulyn wrote: If you want to see entitled, work a customer service job.
as someone else said, modders owe the community nothing, and the people downloading said mods owe modders nothing. If you're sick of your hobby then stop uploading your work. Easy and simple as that. Want to get paid for your work? Go into game design or get involved with a gaming company.
Better yet, just wait until the new Elder Scrolls is released. I'm sure they're going to implement a paid mod system in future installments. This was just their messy test run.
I won't bother playing future Bethesda games in that case. Sorry if that makes me sound like a cheap, entitled asshole, but I can't afford to piss away all my money just to make the base game enjoyable and bug free. Games are expensive enough as is.
There's a reason I refuse to purchase skins and other micro-transactions for the games I play.

arxerisdam wrote: what about we get a i dont like this mod button?

and see how popular a mod really is, that would be fair.

greggorypeccary wrote: My prediction is the end of modding as we know it. The is just no incentive any more. I think more and more modders will find outlets for their creativity and move on. The people that keep saying " if you don't like it don't do it" will get their wish. Imagine your loadorders with only official dlc's. It won't be the greed of the modders that causes this, it's the greed and apathy of the community combines with outright usery of companies that really do already profit from mods that will cause the end.

Azulyn wrote: lol melodramatic much?
people need to hush with this modding will end nonsense. Even if every single talented mod author left right now, there will always be fresh faces to fill their spot.

greggorypeccary wrote: Don't think things can't change. Change is constant. Once people don't feel appreciated they will look for it elsewhere. The more the evidence adds up that the community is largely un grateful for the work modders do the more the likelihood that they will move to something that will satisfy them in some way. Add to that the fact that others are profiting from their work but they are somehow supposed to be above all that and you are practicaly driving them away. The best you'll be able to hope for is the inexperienced modder that wants to cut his teeth. This could have been avoided if the community nurtured modders for the fruit they bore and maybe if the nexus acknowledged how well they are doing for themselves providing those mods that modders should not profit from.

dasgones wrote: I'm one of those @$$holes. I've endorsed very few mods here and have downloaded many. I honestly thought my time playing skyrim would be only a few months, but since i fell into the community i've spent more time applying mods than playing with them. i'm picky and freeloading. This whole conflict has opened my eyes, however, and i'm going to be a lot more responsible in displaying my appreciation. this goes for almost all users that know what has happened. I really am apologetic to you because i'm becoming a bit of a fan of your work. it's impressive. I think ELFX look 4 times better than RLO. Immersive Helgen is incredible and your ENB presets are pure effin' magic. I was too absorbed in pleasing my enjoyment of the game to appreciate what was actually going on to make it that way. but I recognize this now. I honestly think that the best thing to come out of the last week in our community is that we now know what we look like. While I support free mods (i'm a freeloader because i'm cheap) I realize that the work I appreciate comes at a freely offered price. I need to respect that and endorse and get more involved. This week brought a lot of people off the fence. I do believe I need to be more generous in supporting mod authors, and I'm sorry I haven't been. this is something that everyone will see a lot of in the near future.

pigtailsboy wrote: You saying the interne... I mean nexus community is ungrateful? Are you saying that peop... I mean nexus community members don't vote? Are you saying that Huma... I mean nexus members are inherently flawed?

Do you have a blanket point that could easily be applied to the larger civilization of the Human race?

Leonord wrote: I dindt even learn what endorsing means after two years of modding skyrim. Others just forget or are too lazy to do it. Thats the reason why.

Spencerbilodeau wrote: zzjay... I REALLY dig your mods. I would endorse them all day long.

Dreadpap wrote: There are plenty of mods I've downloaded multiple times, but can only endorse once.
Also just because i download a mod, it doesn't mean I'll like it, most of them I uninstall.
Your whole reasoning is based on the false belief that if you download something it means you are going to use it and just steal it for yourself.
The mods I use and enjoy I endorse and most people do the same. But that's a lot smaller group than all the downloaded mods.

Honestly your use of data in this post is so wrong and bleeds form so many wounds there is no point in countering what you were actually trying to say, but if you really want to know what the community is like check the forums. I usually post something there about the mods I download. Usually something nice.

Poyuma wrote: Gotta be honest, I didn't even know what endorsments meant/did. I am absoultely grateful that these mods are free and well put together so I guess I will endorse all the mods I have downloaded :)

Manny,

You have received more endorsements in the past month than most mod authors have received in 4 years. Why are you complaining about endorsements?

I endorse quality mods that I personally enjoy. That's as far as the social contract goes.

I'm no more obligated to endorse every mod I download than I am to pay money for them. There are simply too many mod authors with rotten attitudes, too many poor-quality mods, too many offensive/sexist/racist mods out there that shouldn't even be allowed to be hosted on this site for me to adapt a mentality that now everyone deserves endorsements just because they can't get paid.

I don't like Gray Cowl of Nocturne. I tested it, and I didn't like it. It doesn't add anything to my personal gameplay experience. I'm not about to tell people that DO like it that they're wrong, because different strokes for different folks. But I won't be putting it in my load order. Ergo, vis a vis, condordantly.....I'm not going to endorse it.

Conversely, I absolutely adore Silverfish Grotto. It's one of my very favorite player homes, and it's on my Top Five list of player homes extant. It's one of the most immersive houses to have been created for the game, and it's perfect for my tastes and sensibilities. Hence.....I have LONG since endorsed it, and would endorse it AGAIN if I could.

The point here is that just because I don't endorse a mod doesn't mean I don't appreciate the mod author. It doesn't mean I'm a jerk. It doesn't mean anything other than I didn't like that particular mod. Don't take it so personally.

Endorsements are on a mod-by-mod basis. In plain English, when a user clicks the ENDORSE button, they are endorsing the mod, not the mod author. You can argue the semantics of the dictionary definition of "endorsement" all you want to, but if you want the setup to change, then you need to request Dark0ne to put the ENDORSE button on the author's profile page rather than on individual mods....where it will be even LESS visible and LESS likely to be clicked.

I don't know where you or anyone else get off thinking it's my obligation to endorse every mod I download. I realize we live in a time where everyone is a unique snowflake, and everyone gets a participation trophy, and everyone can easily audition for American Idol and be humiliated and crushed and realize we might not be as special as the enablers surrounding us led us to believe. But I'm not about to compromise my own ethics, morality, ideals and beliefs just to make your or anyone else feel better about themselves.

Endorsements are a privilege, not a right. Edited April 28, 2015 by phantompally76

[Impulseman45]

Hey Manny,

As a beginning mod author myself I can attest to the system. My first mod did the whole front page thing for six days. My endorsement level is about 9%. My mod did not have the smoothest of introductions and I am sure that my lower than average rating may be a small part in that. I am also guilty of not hitting the Endorse button. But in my case it because I am spending time making meshes for mods and have not even had the time to play Skyrim and test the mods I have downloaded, yours included. It does not mean I won't do it, it just the time issue. And I strongly believe I cant hit that endorse button until the mod is loaded and I have tried it. I will explain below my thinking.

 

OK, so is there a way to make things better. Yes. I think the site needs tweaking. Simple color changes can be applied that may go a long way to improving things. I think some new visitors to the site may be confusing Endorse with Donate. I think it might be a good idea to simply change the wording. Instead of Endorse change it Thank You. When you endorse something you are essentially standing up and making a speech about a product, that's how an endorsement has always worked and I never liked the term endorse on this site. Hitting a button that says Endorse is just not the same thing. Endorsing a mod is really done in the post section where people can come in and tell you that they tried your mod and found it great and they recommend it to everyone that is into the idea of the mod. That is an endorsement. It is totally different than hitting a button. So again change the Endorse button to a Thank You instead.

 

Color, the site need more color. As anyone knows we are a visual people and color variation grabs are attention better than anything. I never liked all the buttons on the site being all green. Each button should have it own color, Green for Download buttons, Blue for track, Red for Endorse or Thank You, Orange for Vote, and gold for Donate. These simple changes may go a long way to help making things better. The main thing is if you want to grab attention to the donation system you have to make the button stand out and presently it simply does not do that. Its just another green button in the list. By making it Gold its says this button has value. Of course; the colors I chose are not the ones that have to be us used but the Endorse - Thank You button needs to stand out from the other buttons as does the donate button. It has been a long time proven feature on websites that simple button colors can make or break a site. So if Robin did this for the Nexus just as a trail to see if it increased the uptake of certain button clicks then I prove my point. Color is a magic thing, and the right colors on the right buttons will mean the world to site and the mod authors. Just a few ideas that I am sure will get lost in all of this.

[lincolnshooter]

Good, its good to see they actually care about what we say; hopefully they don't just try it again with fallout 4 (idk integrating it from the start)

[Thingamajig]

It's clear to me that these companies should be encouraging donations, openly making it easy to do and in turn taking a small percentage for their efforts. This would be justifable and doesn't act as a "pay wall" to access mods, but it at least potentially rewards good modders by those kind enough to donate (And i'm certain great mods would certainly get donations).

 

 

Donations - fantastic, bring it on, but pay walls? No. Not right, not on.

 

It's absolutely awesome that Bethesda recognize the importance of mod communities though. After all, the blessing it's had on TES is huge and it's in large part why they have such a long lifespan. A perfect example of this simple truth is the popularity of mod reviewers and how many mods go viral and boost sales/popularity of their games.

 

Skyrim was no exception, in fact it probably made this ever more apparent for many people.

 

This is a concept many other game developers simply can't get their head around. They want strict, tight control of their titles but this stifles their games and reduces their shelf life in the long run.

 

Nonetheless, I sincerely hope Bethesda can learn from this steam "pay" mod fiasco and learn that the only right way to involve money in these free, open and sharing communities is to promote an easy means of donating.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Thingamajig

[Poyuma]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704, #24755774, #24755999, #24756039, #24756394, #24756489, #24756599, #24756669, #24756944, #24757404, #24757709, #24757794, #24757819, #24757959, #24758109, #24758244, #24758549, #24758604, #24758779, #24758789, #24759069, #24760799, #24760824, #24765454, #24765899, #24766564, #24766884, #24767039, #24767164, #24769074, #24769604, #24770129, #24770469, #24770524, #24770899, #24771494, #24771584 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but cańt understand you...

donsolidad wrote: @mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

The only thing those 10 percents show is that the endorsement system is inadequate as a praise measurement, and is not something you should use as a base for your argument.

sdupp wrote: @ mannygt Agree with your post, but i don't think it was the only reason for some modders to sell mods as a greedy modder.

caffeinatedNetling wrote: Regarding the protest mod having lots of endorsements: Get people emotionally involved with the process of making the mod noticed, and of freaking course they're going to endorse.

macintroll wrote: It's just show that 90% of users are just leechers ^^

caffeinatedNetling wrote: I typically have "modding sessions" that literally last for days, going straight from vanilla to the setup I'll play through the following months (without even so much as updating anything, I lost too many saves already).
If I could endorse the mods I download in these sessions when I have them open, I would, but by the time the countdown before the endorsements are enabled reaches zero, I can't even remember what I have downloaded anymore.

EDIT: I went to my profile to actually look at what I have endorsed and it's pretty hilarious. 90% of my endorsements have been made from the download pop-up, on the same day during my last "modding rush".

sunshinenbrick wrote: This might be very unpopular but could a ratio counter between downloads and endorsements have any help in this particular situation. Later on when a proper well thought out and unexploitative polite paying system is eventually introduced (because it more than likely will) it could be expanded to that as well as a form of quality control.

The way it works, well it gives people a kinda nudge if they are deemed to be abusing the system. A better thought out version of how Steam tried to battle the stealing mod refund situation.

Would not be surprised if this wasn't just a big data collection exercise.

MacAban wrote: @ caffeinatedNetling

Account options > Download History, if you want to correct that. You can even endorse from there.

skinnytecboy wrote: This comment started very nicely.. actually put a smile on my face. I thought to myself "Ah finally they're all playing nicely". Let me dream a little more please :)

P.s. I for one enjoy making mods and playing mods and my motives are purely personal. However, it's always nice to know that people like what you do. Its nice to feel approval even if it isn't asked for.

So spread some love and hit those endorsement buttons my fine furry friends :)

myrrdin35 wrote: With everything that has happened, the very thing you bring up has been on my mind also but in a different way. I'm a mod user, I've tried so many times to make a mod but my brain just can't wrap around that CK. I love what mod authors have brought to my gaming and many times in surprising ways. The problem is I have limited ways to give feedback to mod authors. I can hit the "Endorse" button and/or make a
post on the mod page that usually gets buried very quickly. Neither of these options is ideal for mod authors and users.

I think the Nexus needs to take some time and make the site more user friendly. Right now we have the Top 100 (useless, same mods forever), the hot files (highlights some popular new mods, but they are gone too quickly), and then files of the month (which is buried on the side of the page and not prominent). I think a couple of things can be done so more mods get some exposure and helps us the mod
users interact with you guys the makers.

One, add a review area to the mod pages. And I mean real reviews not just your mod is great or it sucks. Talk about technical stuff, if a quest mod how long did it take, if a texture pack did it look good, and so on. Also make it so we can follow reviewers. Say someone is really good and I can trust their feedback, I would love a way to follow their reviews.

Two, a mod spotlight. It can be an old mod, new one, big or small. Just something that is different, works and could be a good addition to someones game. This could definately highlight some lesser known or older mods that people never new existed.

Three, an area where mod users could upload their mod lists with notes on what kind of playthrough they are for and how well the mods work together and maybe installation notes if needed. Say I wanted a survivalist playthrough or maybe a hardcore your gonna die one or a very well put together texture overhaul. I mean how many times have you seen people say recommend me some mods, but its never that simple. This would definately give more exposure to more mod makers. Also it would give people a base to work from.

Four, Make the files of the month more prominent. There usually is a mix of different mods that people are voting for and it deserves some better screen real
estate.

There are probably many more, these are just the ones I could think of right now. I don't know if any of this is doable or not. But I do know as a mod user, it is frustrating right now trying to give proper feedback. I will say mod makers and mod users should always try to show respect for each other. I told my children when they started using the internet. Remember, the written word doesn't show your face and emotion when you are talking to someone. If you are upset or angry or frustrated, go ahead and type what you want, but don't hit the send button. Walk away for 5 minutes, cool off, think. Then come back read what you wrote and if it doesn't sound right, delete it or rewrite your point in a much calmer way. Communication is not easy to do right, so taking a little time will benefit all in the end.

stanleemojo wrote: Many of these DL's are from several countries and more than likely do not speak/read English. I've done this in the past with a Russian modding site, not able to understand a word of it, managing to obtain the mods :\

NDDragor wrote: In my opinion its laziness or just not understanding what the endorsement button means. Many people think that it wont change anything if the endorse or leave a comment but I recently uploaded my first mod and for me each endorsment or feedback which my mod gets is a signal that people are liking my mod and that I should keep up my work. Plus all feedbacks (negative and positive) are helping me to work on my mod.

I wont say that I am always leaving a comment or endorsing a file but I really try to make the authors understand that their mods are good if I enjoyed them or point out bugs and issues if there were some. I have played 34 mods until now and endorsed 26 of them. And I have to agree with others about not endorsing downloaded mods because I haven't tried them. Right now I have 45 mods on my list which I have to play.

Well... to make it short. You wont overstrain yourself by clicking on the endorsement button or writing a small comment and the author will most likely appreciate your feedback.

skinnytecboy wrote: @myrrdin35

Regarding help from the modding community, perhaps you're not looking in the right place. There are amazing forums here that are a wealth of knowledge and people willing to help unlock it's secrets. .. there's also Google ;)

I really like your review idea btw.

Primalsplit wrote: I think mannygt has the right of it here. More people should endorse mods. I admit I wasn't paying much attention with my endorsements (mainly because of the 45 minutes limit). I download a mod, test/play it and then I either be done with testing it within 10 minutes or I just play it for 1-2 hours, sometimes for 3 hours and more. I just forgot endorsing it.

I hope this will be a good lesson to all of us. We as a community should look after each other more. Personally speaking, lesson learned. I advice everyone to be more sensitive towards this subject.

MrGrymReaper wrote: @mannygt - Did you make any endorsements during the painful growth period of the Nexus by chance please?

Cause if you did or accidently clicked on the feature for the endorse/undorse during a hic-cup they may have been lost or undone accidentally. It happended to me several times in the past with my slow internet connection.

As a result I was wondering whether the admin has somewhere on the server which keeps a record of endorsements especially those which were endorsed and quickly suddenly un-endorsed.

The reason being I now there's a lot of mods to endorse and/or vote for some of which I now can't post a comment in (following the previous crisis we went through).

So if an admin could please go through the locked or hidden comment mods which I have download and endorsed to please a word of thanks. It would be much appreciated!

Dirtysocks wrote: I'm not the poster child for feedback on mods myself, I endorse the mods I use and kudos the authors I truly believe made a fantastic mod, however I do believe personally that your no. of downloads is a much more impressive way to tally your mods success, endorsements are a bonus

In any game only a fraction are active in the forums and chats as such, this does not mean for a second that the remainder do not enjoy the game, they are just less vocal about their excitement

Fowldragon wrote: how do people come to conclusions without citing the supporting evidence...

FalSkaar has over 1 million downloads according to the Author..People have commented and critiqued it and AV has made extensive revisions..but Ungrateful? You've ignored all the acclaim and the fact that Falskaar is overwhelmingly if not Universally considered ICONIC as a DLC size mod...

If I tell my kid that he needs to work on this or that, am I unloving, not proud? If His Eng teacher gives him a B- on an ESSAY should he be justified in assuming that EVERYONE hates him?

If you want to make conclusions about endorsements you might consider that POLLING people to get their opinions is a PROACTIVE method, whereas the system in place to ENDORSE mods is completely PASSIVE in its approach.

zcul wrote: Hi MannyGT,

I fully second this and your previous post. I checked the endorsement rate for some other mods - the same 5 to 10 % maximum (?????).

After installing and running a mod, it takes a minute or 2 for returning to the modder's site and just say "thanks for your work" and maybe some thoughts on it, especially if one keeps it installed, because he/she likes it. All that is a small and humble gesture in return and in comparison with the time and work a modder invested to make a mod and share it with the community to enhance and improve the game for all and - for free.
And the best, doing so as a user does hurt in any way - I tried that myself.

b6lph6gor6 wrote: I endorse every mod I like, meaning every mod that I don't uninstall immediately after testing it. If I had to estimate, I'd say I like (and endorse) about 80% of the mods I download.

Although I have to admit that I'm lazy as well. Since I can't endorse the mod immediately after trying it (I like my game to feel vanilla, so I mostly use simple, lightweight mods that don't require a long period of testing for me to determine if I like and keep using them) I often forget to endorse the files. If it weren't for the NMM, half of the mods I use would still wait for my endorsement.

Gamwich wrote: Actually, 10% is considered a very high percentage on Nexus. That's something that I've learned over my time here.

If you can crack the 10% barrier, then you've really accomplished something. ;)

meredithmiles wrote: I do creative works in another fan-based community, and the 10 percent response is a well-known ratio there as well. If you hit about 10% kudos/thanks/likes etc. of the 100% that downloaded your work, you are doing well. I've been watching the numbers for almost 15 years, and that is a solid, persistent statistic.

I've always thought it was odd, how consistent it was.

Personally, I use endorsements as an actual personal endorsement. I'm saying "I've checked this out and suggest it to others". So I try to be sure I've actually used it and it was reasonably solid. Sometimes I will give kudos as encouragement when an otherwise worthy mod I won't really use much gets panned or ignored, even if I won't use it for long myself.

One thing I want to point out to Nexus members, if I can borrow your post to do it:

There are quite a few amazingly kind and helpful people who haunt comment threads and do impromptu tech support for mods around the Nexus. Both modders and mod users owe them a debt, and I wonder about appropriate ways to express collective appreciation for them. Any ideas?

MisterGibson wrote: If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

Jack Wow wrote: Just like FavouredSoul just said:-
"Its hard enough getting people to click a button to endorse a mod, let alone get people to use a donate button to give me the 5c they would rather keep."
- Me? - 1700 endorsements so far. Best I start putting my money where my mouth is. With 3600 hours of playing Skyrim under the belt, I know how much I owe the Nexus and the modding community.

greggorypeccary wrote: A lot of people seem to want to tell other people the reasons why they should mod and what the wrong reasons are. It must be nice to know everything.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @greggorypeccary

I completely agree.

Azulyn wrote: If you want to see entitled, work a customer service job.
as someone else said, modders owe the community nothing, and the people downloading said mods owe modders nothing. If you're sick of your hobby then stop uploading your work. Easy and simple as that. Want to get paid for your work? Go into game design or get involved with a gaming company.
Better yet, just wait until the new Elder Scrolls is released. I'm sure they're going to implement a paid mod system in future installments. This was just their messy test run.
I won't bother playing future Bethesda games in that case. Sorry if that makes me sound like a cheap, entitled asshole, but I can't afford to piss away all my money just to make the base game enjoyable and bug free. Games are expensive enough as is.
There's a reason I refuse to purchase skins and other micro-transactions for the games I play.

arxerisdam wrote: what about we get a i dont like this mod button?

and see how popular a mod really is, that would be fair.

greggorypeccary wrote: My prediction is the end of modding as we know it. The is just no incentive any more. I think more and more modders will find outlets for their creativity and move on. The people that keep saying " if you don't like it don't do it" will get their wish. Imagine your loadorders with only official dlc's. It won't be the greed of the modders that causes this, it's the greed and apathy of the community combines with outright usery of companies that really do already profit from mods that will cause the end.

Azulyn wrote: lol melodramatic much?
people need to hush with this modding will end nonsense. Even if every single talented mod author left right now, there will always be fresh faces to fill their spot.

greggorypeccary wrote: Don't think things can't change. Change is constant. Once people don't feel appreciated they will look for it elsewhere. The more the evidence adds up that the community is largely un grateful for the work modders do the more the likelihood that they will move to something that will satisfy them in some way. Add to that the fact that others are profiting from their work but they are somehow supposed to be above all that and you are practicaly driving them away. The best you'll be able to hope for is the inexperienced modder that wants to cut his teeth. This could have been avoided if the community nurtured modders for the fruit they bore and maybe if the nexus acknowledged how well they are doing for themselves providing those mods that modders should not profit from.

dasgones wrote: I'm one of those @$$holes. I've endorsed very few mods here and have downloaded many. I honestly thought my time playing skyrim would be only a few months, but since i fell into the community i've spent more time applying mods than playing with them. i'm picky and freeloading. This whole conflict has opened my eyes, however, and i'm going to be a lot more responsible in displaying my appreciation. this goes for almost all users that know what has happened. I really am apologetic to you because i'm becoming a bit of a fan of your work. it's impressive. I think ELFX look 4 times better than RLO. Immersive Helgen is incredible and your ENB presets are pure effin' magic. I was too absorbed in pleasing my enjoyment of the game to appreciate what was actually going on to make it that way. but I recognize this now. I honestly think that the best thing to come out of the last week in our community is that we now know what we look like. While I support free mods (i'm a freeloader because i'm cheap) I realize that the work I appreciate comes at a freely offered price. I need to respect that and endorse and get more involved. This week brought a lot of people off the fence. I do believe I need to be more generous in supporting mod authors, and I'm sorry I haven't been. this is something that everyone will see a lot of in the near future.

pigtailsboy wrote: You saying the interne... I mean nexus community is ungrateful? Are you saying that peop... I mean nexus community members don't vote? Are you saying that Huma... I mean nexus members are inherently flawed?

Do you have a blanket point that could easily be applied to the larger civilization of the Human race?

Leonord wrote: I dindt even learn what endorsing means after two years of modding skyrim. Others just forget or are too lazy to do it. Thats the reason why.

Spencerbilodeau wrote: zzjay... I REALLY dig your mods. I would endorse them all day long.

Dreadpap wrote: There are plenty of mods I've downloaded multiple times, but can only endorse once.
Also just because i download a mod, it doesn't mean I'll like it, most of them I uninstall.
Your whole reasoning is based on the false belief that if you download something it means you are going to use it and just steal it for yourself.
The mods I use and enjoy I endorse and most people do the same. But that's a lot smaller group than all the downloaded mods.

Honestly your use of data in this post is so wrong and bleeds form so many wounds there is no point in countering what you were actually trying to say, but if you really want to know what the community is like check the forums. I usually post something there about the mods I download. Usually something nice.

phantompally76 wrote: What an absolutely petty and selfish viewpoint. You have received more endorsements in the past month than most mod authors have received in 4 years. Why are you complaining about endorsements?

I endorse quality mods that I personally enjoy. That's as far as the social contract goes.

I'm no more obligated to endorse every mod I download than I am to pay money for them. There are simply too many mod authors with rotten attitudes, too many poor-quality mods, too many offensive/sexist/racist mods out there that shouldn't even be allowed to be hosted on this site for me to adapt a mentality that now everyone deserves endorsements just because they can't get paid.

I don't like Gray Cowl of Nocturne. I tested it, and I didn't like it. It doesn't add anything to my personal gameplay experience. I'm not about to tell people that DO like it that they're wrong, because different strokes for different folks. But I won't be putting it in my load order. Ergo, vis a vis, condordantly.....I'm not going to endorse it.

Conversely, I absolutely adore Silverfish Grotto. It's one of my very favorite player homes, and it's on my Top Five list of player homes extant. It's one of the most immersive houses to have been created for the game, and it's perfect for my tastes and sensibilities. Hence.....I have LONG since endorsed it, and would endorse it AGAIN if I could.

The point here is that just because I don't endorse a mod doesn't mean I don't appreciate the mod author. It doesn't mean I'm a jerk. It doesn't mean anything other than I didn't like that particular mod. Don't take it so personally.

Endorsements are on a mod-by-mod basis. In plain English, when a user clicks the ENDORSE button, they are endorsing the mod, not the mod author. You can argue the semantics of the dictionary definition of "endorsement" all you want to, but if you want the setup to change, then you need to request Dark0ne to put the ENDORSE button on the author's profile page rather than on individual mods....where it will be even LESS visible and LESS likely to be clicked.

I don't know where you or anyone else get off thinking it's my obligation to endorse every mod I download. I realize we live in a time where everyone is a unique snowflake, and everyone gets a participation trophy, and everyone can easily audition for American Idol and be humiliated and crushed and realize we might not be as special as the enablers surrounding us led us to believe. But I'm not about to compromise my own ethics, morality, ideals and beliefs just to make your or anyone else feel better about themselves.

Endorsements are a privilege, not a right.

Gotta be honest, I didn't even know what endorsments meant/did. I am absoultely grateful that these mods are free and well put together so I guess I will endorse all the mods I have downloaded :)

[BetrayalSeeker]

In response to post #24770949.

Usernameisclassified wrote:

Except the opinions, of course, of those who DID want paid mods.

[acidzebra]

We should just get it over with and replace "endorse" with a giant blue thumbs up and the word "like".