Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Incensement]

In response to post #24823894. #24831669 is also a reply to the same post.

Fowldragon wrote: For those who've commented that they accept and encourage modders to pull their work and leave, consider what is happening...In the last 3-4 days, I've seen the SAME mods on the banner page.

There doesn't seem to be any new mods/modders coming to replace the ones lost ... good or bad...

I gotta ask..is this REALLY the result modders want?...and for the rest of us, are we really going to let Skyrim Nexus DIE? I was convinced the the injustice of Valve's move justified the fight...But this seems to be a result that Valve and Bethesda GAIN from as well...

Instead of Nexus being a bastion of support for Modders. It is only committing to NOT CHANGING. As underhanded as Valve and Bethesda may have been, They showed tangibly that they were willing to CHANGE.

Dark0ne, You may want to change at least ONE thing....Stop Blogging your honest thoughts every 3-7 days...it is quite obvious people are paying VERY CLOSE attention.

CNR4806 wrote: Give it a little time. There's no way in hell the modding community can recover from such a divisive disaster in merely a few days.

That's not some kind of recent phenomenom caused by the Workshop debacle. The amount of fresh mods for Skyrim has been on the decline since quite a while, you probably just started to notice it now because you were actively looking for some kind of connection. Edited April 30, 2015 by Incensement

[CaladanAnduril]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

lereddit wrote: Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.

Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?

Marstonn wrote: lereddit you're a troll, i can comprove that with your blood sample.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit,

Rule #1 for discussing something on the internet: if someone makes a point that you can't refute or argue against, call them a "troll" or other names.

lereddit wrote: Whatever you say my friend.

I want to be a frost troll though, I#ve never liked regular trolls

Marstonn wrote: I'm a flamer, i won.

CaladanAnduril wrote: You just proven my point... if a calm and rational but opposite point of view is dropping on you, your only reaction is to curse and offend your opponent....
Delusional... I have dealt with your kind for many years and I find your kind pathetic.
That's all you could?
Injurious comments towards those who have a different point of view?

Pathetic... btw, I watched this discussion from the beginning, refraining myself from comments, but I have noticed that same names keep showing again and again with vitriolant behaviour towards those who don't agree with you... your name is one

Pitiful mind could write only pitifull comments... you "won" keep your victory flag close, you will need it in the near future

macintroll wrote: "lereddit " part of the army ? :D
Of course you did take this pseudo by "pure hazard" ... ^^

Vesuvius1745 wrote: CaladanAnduril is lecturing people on name calling, while calling them names. How droll.

Marstonn wrote: Caladan

I was just kidding man, i'm a pro paid mods, i bought 2 of them to support, i dreamed amazing dozens of falksaars coming, armors 4k texture perfect made been launched for few steam cards. But it seems the people didn't think this way.

The mods was removed, i noticed the anti paid just don't want paid mods, they will argue 1000 reasons, but is simple, they don't want pay for mod and the are afraid to lose "their" mods.

They already removed the paid mods, don't matter why, who, when, how discussions. I hope they bring paid mods back, with more QA, but if they relaunch tomorow, i'll support (buying) the mods again.

lereddit wrote: @macintroll

Of course not. Chose this name as a parody of reddit's idiocy and went with it because I couldn't think of something better.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Maybe my English is not so good like yours, but I don't make statements regarding how the others should act.

" People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community"... since then?
Since then you have the RIGHT to decide what I must do?
You are just a pathetic troll, who was so disgusting this days against those who feeded you with tons of mods for FREE so many years.
And now you have RIGHTS? Maybe in your LaLa Land ...

You and the other hatred trolls have trashed the very notion of FREE modding and very soon you will cash in the reward... but it will be a bittter one.

Sorry if my English is offending your suave ears...

lereddit wrote: Am I really being lectured about not having rights because I never created a mod?

I made a few rather bad ones for private use. Never released one. I know that modding is hard. So what?

Also, resorting to calling me and the other people trolls just shows that you are running out of arguments. Please stop, it's painful to watch

Not for me... for me IS fun fun to watch your next predictable step, trying to patronize your "opponent"

And I mopping with your kind( not particularly with you) because your kind denise MY kind to have an opinion based on OUR hard work over the time.
You are wining about quality...helo!!! wake up child, ANY free mod is provided AS IS.
No matter most of the mod authors provide updates and fixes WHEN they could, your kind is still "unhappy" not to be provided WHEN you want, in your LaLa Land you have RIGHTS... your so called rights are in fact DEMANDS, spoken on an outrageous tone.
And your KIND proved this days how low could reach human nature

And don't bother to look after my profile, rofl, I have long time ago moved my mods from Nexus.

[Alenderis]

In response to post #24829394. #24829699, #24830229 are all replies on the same post.

blackasm wrote: I have been one of the modders more vocal about the rights of the artists, and as a result I had taken down my humble retextures. I still feel this decision to remove paid mods was hugely flawed and that the potential for great modding was enormous as proven by the return of skyui team making better paid version and making a newer better moonpath to elseweyr. I also felt this event has proven that free modding and the nexus was never in any actual danger, while simultaneously proving that there was a large market that could have given real value to modding and more than a pat on the back and a nickel in the cup for real talented artists and programmers. I feel artists are constantly undervalued and I also feel this was possibly one of the grossest examples of artists devaluing their own work (something I deal with constantly). It is literally the reason why they are called starving artists, because they don't put value on their work and thus are never professional in their endeavors. It is also the real reason why I had more or less quit modding a long time ago, because like most people I got s#*! to do, I cant justify the time it would take to make the high poly versions of my armors and the rigging and everything else.

I am still infuriated with some of the stuff I have heard from the more outspoken users, and admittedly I took down my mods in a fit of rage from their audacity, entitlement and outright arrogance. I did however keep reading, I read through a lot of comments these past 24 hours, it has made me reconsider a lot of things and I cant hurt the community the real community that I have helped and has helped me and that I would help more if I could. I still wont be making any of my armor mods until I have a real incentive to as I have work and a family but I wont hurt the community I love just because of a bunch of assholes. So anyways I am putting the retextures back up after this message.

CaladanAnduril wrote: At least now you enter into that room with the eyes wide open, knowing exactly with what kind of people you are dealing.

The vast "majority" of leechers will not understand your statement, you could be sure.

blackasm wrote: word.

I think what saddens me the most is this entire thing became an "Us Vs Them" situation where no one wins. Neither side can see the point of the other, and the middle ground gets completely forgotten or touted as the "other side" and insulted. The Paid Mod system was horrendously implemented, not a bad idea, but horrendously implemented. As someone looking from the outside in (I want to get into modding but really the only thing I'm good at is programming, I can't model anything to save my life) and not putting himself on either side of the fence you see how much the system was designed to screw everyone. This gets lost as the modders who saw their chances to turn their hobbies into jobs slowly wither away, and those who are just against the whole thing cry in elation about how they won.

It was implemented in a way that screwed everyone, but each side of the pitch doesn't want to admit it screwed the other. Instead of crying "FREE MODS FREE MODS" or "PAID MODS PAIDS MODS" and yelling " I hate all you you entitled brats" at each other everyone should be crying "Fix the system fix the system!". There was no protection for the consumer, caveats in place so they could lower the percentages that Modders get to single digit numbers (they're a business, that's what "tweak the percentages" means), and a system designed in a way that only the big mods that already have a following had a chance. All of this is lost, everyone on both sides was blinded by the money and didn't see the bigger picture: This was a chance to take the system that was designed to screw everyone, and make it work for both sides. Guess what, we f*#@ed up and lost that chance because everyone was too busy bickering while not seeing the middle ground.

And the thing is it was a stroke of genius on Bethesda's part. They tested a bad system in an attempt to gouge as much money out of the community as they could and threw the modders to the wolves. They pushed the button, and you modders took the critical fallout. This isn't going to effect Bethesda's pocketbook everyone will still go buy the next Fallout and Elder Scrolls they won't see any real damage done to them. Instead what happens is the mod community is attempting to rip itself apart at the seams.

TL:DR version: I"m for Paid Mods, Modders deserve to be paid for their work if their work is good. I was against the Paid Mods system, it was horribly designed specifically to screw the Modders and the Consumers while padding Valve and Bethesda's pocketbooks. If the system makes a comeback it needs to be fixed with protections for both sides in place.

[lereddit]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809, #24832199 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

lereddit wrote: Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.

Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?

Marstonn wrote: lereddit you're a troll, i can comprove that with your blood sample.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit,

Rule #1 for discussing something on the internet: if someone makes a point that you can't refute or argue against, call them a "troll" or other names.

lereddit wrote: Whatever you say my friend.

I want to be a frost troll though, I#ve never liked regular trolls

Marstonn wrote: I'm a flamer, i won.

CaladanAnduril wrote: You just proven my point... if a calm and rational but opposite point of view is dropping on you, your only reaction is to curse and offend your opponent....
Delusional... I have dealt with your kind for many years and I find your kind pathetic.
That's all you could?
Injurious comments towards those who have a different point of view?

Pathetic... btw, I watched this discussion from the beginning, refraining myself from comments, but I have noticed that same names keep showing again and again with vitriolant behaviour towards those who don't agree with you... your name is one

Pitiful mind could write only pitifull comments... you "won" keep your victory flag close, you will need it in the near future

macintroll wrote: "lereddit " part of the army ? :D
Of course you did take this pseudo by "pure hazard" ... ^^

Vesuvius1745 wrote: CaladanAnduril is lecturing people on name calling, while calling them names. How droll.

Marstonn wrote: Caladan

I was just kidding man, i'm a pro paid mods, i bought 2 of them to support, i dreamed amazing dozens of falksaars coming, armors 4k texture perfect made been launched for few steam cards. But it seems the people didn't think this way.

The mods was removed, i noticed the anti paid just don't want paid mods, they will argue 1000 reasons, but is simple, they don't want pay for mod and the are afraid to lose "their" mods.

They already removed the paid mods, don't matter why, who, when, how discussions. I hope they bring paid mods back, with more QA, but if they relaunch tomorow, i'll support (buying) the mods again.

lereddit wrote: @macintroll

Of course not. Chose this name as a parody of reddit's idiocy and went with it because I couldn't think of something better.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Maybe my English is not so good like yours, but I don't make statements regarding how the others should act.

" People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community"... since then?
Since then you have the RIGHT to decide what I must do?
You are just a pathetic troll, who was so disgusting this days against those who feeded you with tons of mods for FREE so many years.
And now you have RIGHTS? Maybe in your LaLa Land ...

You and the other hatred trolls have trashed the very notion of FREE modding and very soon you will cash in the reward... but it will be a bittter one.

Sorry if my English is offending your suave ears...

lereddit wrote: Am I really being lectured about not having rights because I never created a mod?

I made a few rather bad ones for private use. Never released one. I know that modding is hard. So what?

Also, resorting to calling me and the other people trolls just shows that you are running out of arguments. Please stop, it's painful to watch

CaladanAnduril wrote: Not for me... for me IS fun fun to watch your next predictable step, trying to patronize your "opponent"

And I mopping with your kind( not particularly with you) because your kind denise MY kind to have an opinion based on OUR hard work over the time.
You are wining about quality...helo!!! wake up child, ANY free mod is provided AS IS.
No matter most of the mod authors provide updates and fixes WHEN they could, your kind is still "unhappy" not to be provided WHEN you want, in your LaLa Land you have RIGHTS... your so called rights are in fact DEMANDS, spoken on an outrageous tone.
And your KIND proved this days how low could reach human nature

And don't bother to look after my profile, rofl, I have long time ago moved my mods from Nexus.

Yeah, whatever bro. No use arguing with lunatics on the internet

Gimme some of that weed you're smoking, I wanna go to LaLa land too.
Holy s#*!, at least try to speak in coherent sentences. Or use google translator

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809, #24832199, #24832334 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

lereddit wrote: Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.

Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?

Marstonn wrote: lereddit you're a troll, i can comprove that with your blood sample.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit,

Rule #1 for discussing something on the internet: if someone makes a point that you can't refute or argue against, call them a "troll" or other names.

lereddit wrote: Whatever you say my friend.

I want to be a frost troll though, I#ve never liked regular trolls

Marstonn wrote: I'm a flamer, i won.

CaladanAnduril wrote: You just proven my point... if a calm and rational but opposite point of view is dropping on you, your only reaction is to curse and offend your opponent....
Delusional... I have dealt with your kind for many years and I find your kind pathetic.
That's all you could?
Injurious comments towards those who have a different point of view?

Pathetic... btw, I watched this discussion from the beginning, refraining myself from comments, but I have noticed that same names keep showing again and again with vitriolant behaviour towards those who don't agree with you... your name is one

Pitiful mind could write only pitifull comments... you "won" keep your victory flag close, you will need it in the near future

macintroll wrote: "lereddit " part of the army ? :D
Of course you did take this pseudo by "pure hazard" ... ^^

Vesuvius1745 wrote: CaladanAnduril is lecturing people on name calling, while calling them names. How droll.

Marstonn wrote: Caladan

I was just kidding man, i'm a pro paid mods, i bought 2 of them to support, i dreamed amazing dozens of falksaars coming, armors 4k texture perfect made been launched for few steam cards. But it seems the people didn't think this way.

The mods was removed, i noticed the anti paid just don't want paid mods, they will argue 1000 reasons, but is simple, they don't want pay for mod and the are afraid to lose "their" mods.

They already removed the paid mods, don't matter why, who, when, how discussions. I hope they bring paid mods back, with more QA, but if they relaunch tomorow, i'll support (buying) the mods again.

lereddit wrote: @macintroll

Of course not. Chose this name as a parody of reddit's idiocy and went with it because I couldn't think of something better.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Maybe my English is not so good like yours, but I don't make statements regarding how the others should act.

" People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community"... since then?
Since then you have the RIGHT to decide what I must do?
You are just a pathetic troll, who was so disgusting this days against those who feeded you with tons of mods for FREE so many years.
And now you have RIGHTS? Maybe in your LaLa Land ...

You and the other hatred trolls have trashed the very notion of FREE modding and very soon you will cash in the reward... but it will be a bittter one.

Sorry if my English is offending your suave ears...

lereddit wrote: Am I really being lectured about not having rights because I never created a mod?

I made a few rather bad ones for private use. Never released one. I know that modding is hard. So what?

Also, resorting to calling me and the other people trolls just shows that you are running out of arguments. Please stop, it's painful to watch

CaladanAnduril wrote: Not for me... for me IS fun fun to watch your next predictable step, trying to patronize your "opponent"

And I mopping with your kind( not particularly with you) because your kind denise MY kind to have an opinion based on OUR hard work over the time.
You are wining about quality...helo!!! wake up child, ANY free mod is provided AS IS.
No matter most of the mod authors provide updates and fixes WHEN they could, your kind is still "unhappy" not to be provided WHEN you want, in your LaLa Land you have RIGHTS... your so called rights are in fact DEMANDS, spoken on an outrageous tone.
And your KIND proved this days how low could reach human nature

And don't bother to look after my profile, rofl, I have long time ago moved my mods from Nexus.

lereddit wrote: Yeah, whatever bro. No use arguing with lunatics on the internet

Gimme some of that weed you're smoking, I wanna go to LaLa land too.
Holy s#*!, at least try to speak in coherent sentences. Or use google translator

First of all, you have no idea what I have or haven't contributed. If you've read some of my other posts, you might get an idea. But you know what? That's irrelevant.

I would never want payment for a mod I created, and this is the main reason: because, as you have said, I HAVE enjoyed all the free content that has been provided to the community for years. And you know what? So have YOU. Contributing to the community is called paying-it-forward, and every mod out there (and I don't care how individual you think your specific snowflake is), was a GROUP EFFORT--the culmination of everything and everyone who has come before you to make this possible.

Programmers who have a lot more skill than is required for a game mod have donated their efforts to bring some outstanding utilities and resources to the community (ENB, SKSE, FORE, Wyre Bash, and on and on and on). Many mods would not even function without these free resources, or would be mediocre. They gave these things to the community with no expectation of anything other than to encourage creativity, and more mods being shared with everybody. The same goes for every other mod author who has released a free mod (they have enjoyed free mods from the same community, and they are giving something back). Mod authors learn how to create mods by dissecting other mods, they borrow resources, they piggy-back on the work of others. And this is FINE. It's the nature of an "open source" community. But when you want to piggy-back on the work of others so you can make a profit from what others have allowed you to do, there is going to be a backlash.

[ShinMorita]

In response to post #24829394. #24829699, #24830229, #24832299 are all replies on the same post.

blackasm wrote: I have been one of the modders more vocal about the rights of the artists, and as a result I had taken down my humble retextures. I still feel this decision to remove paid mods was hugely flawed and that the potential for great modding was enormous as proven by the return of skyui team making better paid version and making a newer better moonpath to elseweyr. I also felt this event has proven that free modding and the nexus was never in any actual danger, while simultaneously proving that there was a large market that could have given real value to modding and more than a pat on the back and a nickel in the cup for real talented artists and programmers. I feel artists are constantly undervalued and I also feel this was possibly one of the grossest examples of artists devaluing their own work (something I deal with constantly). It is literally the reason why they are called starving artists, because they don't put value on their work and thus are never professional in their endeavors. It is also the real reason why I had more or less quit modding a long time ago, because like most people I got s#*! to do, I cant justify the time it would take to make the high poly versions of my armors and the rigging and everything else.

I am still infuriated with some of the stuff I have heard from the more outspoken users, and admittedly I took down my mods in a fit of rage from their audacity, entitlement and outright arrogance. I did however keep reading, I read through a lot of comments these past 24 hours, it has made me reconsider a lot of things and I cant hurt the community the real community that I have helped and has helped me and that I would help more if I could. I still wont be making any of my armor mods until I have a real incentive to as I have work and a family but I wont hurt the community I love just because of a bunch of assholes. So anyways I am putting the retextures back up after this message.

CaladanAnduril wrote: At least now you enter into that room with the eyes wide open, knowing exactly with what kind of people you are dealing.

The vast "majority" of leechers will not understand your statement, you could be sure.

blackasm wrote: word.

Alenderis wrote: I think what saddens me the most is this entire thing became an "Us Vs Them" situation where no one wins. Neither side can see the point of the other, and the middle ground gets completely forgotten or touted as the "other side" and insulted. The Paid Mod system was horrendously implemented, not a bad idea, but horrendously implemented. As someone looking from the outside in (I want to get into modding but really the only thing I'm good at is programming, I can't model anything to save my life) and not putting himself on either side of the fence you see how much the system was designed to screw everyone. This gets lost as the modders who saw their chances to turn their hobbies into jobs slowly wither away, and those who are just against the whole thing cry in elation about how they won.

It was implemented in a way that screwed everyone, but each side of the pitch doesn't want to admit it screwed the other. Instead of crying "FREE MODS FREE MODS" or "PAID MODS PAIDS MODS" and yelling " I hate all you you entitled brats" at each other everyone should be crying "Fix the system fix the system!". There was no protection for the consumer, caveats in place so they could lower the percentages that Modders get to single digit numbers (they're a business, that's what "tweak the percentages" means), and a system designed in a way that only the big mods that already have a following had a chance. All of this is lost, everyone on both sides was blinded by the money and didn't see the bigger picture: This was a chance to take the system that was designed to screw everyone, and make it work for both sides. Guess what, we f*#@ed up and lost that chance because everyone was too busy bickering while not seeing the middle ground.

And the thing is it was a stroke of genius on Bethesda's part. They tested a bad system in an attempt to gouge as much money out of the community as they could and threw the modders to the wolves. They pushed the button, and you modders took the critical fallout. This isn't going to effect Bethesda's pocketbook everyone will still go buy the next Fallout and Elder Scrolls they won't see any real damage done to them. Instead what happens is the mod community is attempting to rip itself apart at the seams.

TL:DR version: I"m for Paid Mods, Modders deserve to be paid for their work if their work is good. I was against the Paid Mods system, it was horribly designed specifically to screw the Modders and the Consumers while padding Valve and Bethesda's pocketbooks. If the system makes a comeback it needs to be fixed with protections for both sides in place.

I do agree that the authors of the mods should be rewarded for their effort.
And a "pat in the back" isn't real compensation, but i gotta admit, i would much rather have a pat in the back than no credit at all for my hard work and efforts (not saying that you dont appreciate the "pat in the back" you probably do, cuz it is always nice to get recognition for ur work).
I guess that if i was in the shoes of a modder (even tho i'm not a modder myself) who was contacted by valve, i too would take the chance and risk it. As it's said "risk it to take the biscuit".
But, I definitly don't agree that 75% of the cut was for valve and bethesda, as valve was only hosting mods, they weren't even worried about quality controll, as for bethesda, well you gotta admit they should have a % of it as they made the modding of the game possible and also made the game obviously, but definitly not more than 30%, since it's the modders creativity and work that made the mod itself, everything else are resources, provided by bethesda. And if you look at the business side of all this, when you get a job it's only natural that the company will provide you with the materials you need to get your job done.
In any case, i think a position in one of the two companies as a worker would be a more fitting reward for your efforts, obviously a position as game developer and whatnot, not as the errand boy... that would undervalue your work and efforts even more.
I personaly don't agree with people raging at modders because of all of this, it might cause some of these modders to quit modding, and thus rendering this community dead...
The community has been broken down enough when valve tried to implement paied mods, and there's no need for any hate twards modders, as they are the pillars of this community, and that's what the ragers (<- not sure if thats a word, but i guess you get what i mean) fail to realize >.<

Sorry for any typo, or grammar errors, as im not english >.< Edited April 30, 2015 by ShinMorita

[Harbringe]

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself

You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD

No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?

Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.

Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.

I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

[Rooker75]

"Most people don't know, but our very own Skyrim DLC has zero DRM. We shipped Oblivion with no DRM because we didn't like how it affected the game."

 

Bull. Skyrim requires Steam. So does Oblivion, if you buy the GotY. If you buy the disc, it has cd checking DRM. New Vegas also requires Steam.

 

I'm happy you haven't joined the race to create the most obnoxious forms of DRM ever made the way Ubisoft, Rockstar and EA all have, but don't lie to us Bethesda. You do ship games with DRM.

[Eiries]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784, #24830789, #24830854, #24830894, #24830919, #24831079, #24831109, #24831114, #24831884, #24831959, #24832009, #24832024 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

CaladanAnduril wrote: Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is why there ALSO must be user protection. Who is to say a mod will not sold as doing something and then doing something else or just not doing it? Even mod makers use other mods. This is also assuming Bethesda tell freelance developers what shape the hole should be in in the first place... which they have notouriously been elusive about. Probably because they are figuring stuff out as they go along, like many pioneering and experimental developers do.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster, I'm afraid you don't understand how the world works in this regard. Once you sign a contract and start charging, legally, everything changes.

With this, you wouldn't be an employee for Bethesda, but a private contractor. And this is much MUCH worse. Any mod you release will have the same consumer protection as anything else--including APPs in Apple's store. You have a whole new set of responsibilities now: such as making sure your mod works in conjunction with as many other possible mods as possible. And just like an APP in the Apple store, if it ganks someone's system, YOU are legally responsible. You are also responsible for troubleshooting for people who have purchased your product, and all the headaches that come from that. You can no longer just say "download at your own risk" as you have been able to with mods you've released for free. Bethesda's hands are washed of this, as you are just a "contractor". You do all the work, deal with all the headaches, and they get most of the money.

freedom613 wrote: @Foster
One of the problems with paid mods was a precedent it setup:

Suppose a company, ElectronicSoft, wants to release day 1 DLC. They know they are going to get flak so instead they get a shell company: Ubigames to release the DLC as a paid "mod".


If they get flak, Electronicsoft can just say "Oh no, we are against Day1 DLC, but we fully support modders getting paid for their work".

As you can see, this problem is a whole lot larger than modders wanting some cash. This sets a bad precedent and for that reason must be stopped in it's tracks.


They can also do this with their DLC, cut out the time and cost running the already poor quality beta testing of DLC and just release it through their shell company as a 3rd Party DLC while reaping all the profits minus Valve's (if they don't decide to cut out the middle man) cut and have none of the accountability.


So while this program is allegedly built on good intentions (let us face it, Valve and Bethesda did this as a cash grab), much like the PATRIOT Act, there is a lot of wiggle room to put in less than favourable business practices.
=========
So yes, paywalling had to go for the greater good. The gaming industry is exploitative, and will wiggle into everything they can to make a profit. Now this does not mean that we are against modder compensation. One of the problems with this whole fiasco was the strawmen setup by both parties. Now I am not talking about donations, anyone here who believes the status quo worked is being naive at best. A system similar to Patreon, which Youtubers and Minecraft modders have been using would be a well recieved solution.

My economics professor gave me a fun quote that I will never forget "Always use the right tool for the job, never use a hammer to put in a screw if there is a screw driver near by". He meant this mostly in marketing by giving the example of using Television to advertise your company in a town of luddites, but the same can be applied here. Paywalling is using a hammer to put in a screw, when there are other tools available.

foster xbl wrote: "Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical"


If someone is stupid enough to pay their hard earned money
For a product with a clear definition of what it is or does....
Then, yeah, pretty much.
Of course these are the same people who need told coffee is hot.

lereddit wrote: You didn't even bother to read my post properly.

If you are cherrypicking arguments, at least do it less obvious

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

That coffee analogy is great. There ARE a lot of stupid consumers out there, but you know what? YOU are STILL responsible for their mess-ups. In the McDonald's analogy you alluded to, McDonald's was held responsible to the tune of I think about a million dollars.

foster xbl wrote: I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Do you support this model of business?

lereddit wrote: It won't be the lawyers of Bethesda who have to deal with that.
It would be the lawyer of the modder, because now the modder is legally responsible.
Modder tricks users into buying a mod that doesn't do what it promises?
You better bet he's getting sued for that.

"Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case."

Do you even know how lawyers work?
If you pay the lawyer enoguh, he's gonna do wahtever you want, no matter how ridiculous the case is.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

I assume you live in the United States? In most states any Cause of Action in which less than $5,000 in damages is declared goes to Small Claims court. Attorneys aren't allowed in Small Claims court (unless they are representing themselves).

What this means is people wouldn't need an attorney, and the process of suing you is much easier. I've seen neighbors sue other neighbors over a mere tree being cut down. People have sued other people over too much noise coming from their homes after a certain time (and won). People can and will sue for as little as $10. But that $10 also will include your time to go to court, bringing evidence, and trying to defend yourself. I'm not saying you WOULD get sued, but if your mod messes up someone's computer (or some other issue), they certainly have the right to sue you.

Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?

So what you're saying is... releasing a broken mod and charging people for it is a nonissue because its too difficult to punish the mod creator? Edited April 30, 2015 by Eiries

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24832779.

Rooker75 wrote: "Most people don't know, but our very own Skyrim DLC has zero DRM. We shipped Oblivion with no DRM because we didn't like how it affected the game."

Bull. Skyrim requires Steam. So does Oblivion, if you buy the GotY. If you buy the disc, it has cd checking DRM. New Vegas also requires Steam.

I'm happy you haven't joined the race to create the most obnoxious forms of DRM ever made the way Ubisoft, Rockstar and EA all have, but don't lie to us Bethesda. You do ship games with DRM.

They are only against DRM until it becomes profitable to be for it. Their pencil pushers thus far have concluded the backlash and loss of potential sales would not make up for the lower piracy rates.

Bethesda is a corporation, and just like any corporation, their only concern is with maximizing profit. We saw this with Skyrim: they released a bug-filled and incomplete game that needed at least 6 more months of development. They then peddled us mediocre DLCs that should have been in the game on release.

If they know modders will finish their game for them, I will hate to see how early they will release the next TES game, and how barebones that one will be.

Bottom line: Bethesda cares nothing about modders, the "community", or anything other than lining their pockets with cash.