Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Wolvenlight]

In response to post #24816339. #24817409, #24817554 are all replies on the same post.

Vesuvius1745 wrote:

Wolvenlight wrote: While I could be wrong, I haven't seen any mod authors state that they couldn't continue modding because they weren't getting paid. From what I understand, they reacted to the horrid backlash from the community and decided from there that the community they had been a part of for years was a fickle bunch of spoiled jack offs who didn't actually appreciate mod authors at all. I'm paraphrasing, and I don't agree, but that's what I've read and I can understand the logic behind it. If I were a mod author and many of my "fans" treated me like that, I might jump ship too.

If anything, the introduction of a paid mod system meant they could do what they love for a living (or at least spend more time on it,) and the retraction of that system meant they couldn't. Unfortunately, while I think paid mods would cause a lot of problems and I'm sort of relieved it all ended, good people got screwed over more than just losing out on potential revenue.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: " I haven't seen any mod authors state that they couldn't continue modding because they weren't getting paid."

Read some of these threads. Multiple mod authors have stated as such.

And some of that "selfish community" that "attacked" them were mod authors themselves, and although I could be wrong, seemed to be upset that these modders were piggy-backing on the work others had given to the community for free, and trying to make a profit off of it. The programmers of ENB, FORE, SKSE and many others have given countless hours of their time developing these tools and utilities, and gifting them to the community with the only expectation that people pay-it-forward (i.e. more mods given to the community). It might be disappointing to such individuals to see their work taken, used, relied upon, and then stuck in a pay-for system on Steam.

I have read many of these threads. I still have yet to see that claim. The only people I see making it are the anti-paid side speaking in such a way they're putting words in the mouths of the paid mod authors themselves. (I've seen a lot of that as well.) Perhaps I've missed the few cases this is true, however, I have seen many, many paid mod authors pointing out the hatred and vitriol directed at them by the people they thought were part of a supportive modding community. I've seen many, many free mod consumers and free mod authors attacking the paid side with words like "you're a disease, entitled brats, we don't need you." No, what we don't need is that behavior. I don't care if you've modded or not, an attack is an attack no matter where it comes from.

And perhaps it's true that some of the paid mod authors can't continue modding because they aren't paid. Perhaps being paid gave them the financial freedom to mod again where they could no longer find the time before. It's not an automatically nefarious claim.

Now, I totally get the concern with taking assets that aren't yours and using them in your own mod. That happened a couple times and it shouldn't have, but that's such a small minority. I also get the whole piggybacking off of free work to make paid work concern. That said, that's true of anything. Using Java to make a paid game, using Open Office to write a book, using Blender to make paid clothing mods for the Sims. (That last one is one of the reasons I don't want a paid mod system for Elder Scrolls.) It's really up to the user agreements of the free resources and those using them for paid work to discuss themselves. Perhaps some of those resource providers would be fine with it, at least if paid modders had asked and worked out their terms.

But regardless of where the hate started, it shouldn't have started at all, and it shouldn't have continued. I'm not for paid modding, but if I had to choose, I'd be perfectly fine paying kind and fair modders over not having to pay jerk modders. (Neither of these scenarios exist in a vacuum, but you get the idea.) Nobody is really being selfish, but there are a lot of illogical accusations flying around. I've just seen more on the anti-pay side than the pro-pay side so far.

[Xazomn]

In response to post #24774814. #24776789, #24777459, #24811584, #24811694, #24811904, #24811959, #24813484, #24818104 are all replies on the same post.

chidosity wrote:

Brasscatcher wrote: And if they don't like it, they can hit the bricks. Right on, chido!

FavoredSoul wrote: You totally missed the point of my post.

95% of my discontent had to do with the simple fact that this "issue" has brought to the surface, such a disgusting amount of hate that I never knew existed, or was even possible. And why?

Did I even have any mods for sale? No. Only about 15 people were even part of the program, let me repeat that, *FIFTEEN*, so for people like you to say that people like me are greedy and entitled, when we DIDN'T EVEN DO ANYTHING, that's the truly heart breaking part.

I was merely upset and disappointed over the fact that, for the briefest moment, the POSSIBILITY of some kind of return system existed, and it was so vilified, and so hated, that you guys decided to make, in large part, the mod-authors the target of that hate, and not bethesda and valve who were the ones that CREATED IT.

So again, when people like you say to people like me, "good riddance we don't need you", it just proves how disposable you think we are. You're happy to use our mods when we're offering, and just as readily are willing to throw us away without a second thought. You take us for granted, and that makes you nothing else but a selfish individual. And you say that I am the one with the disease?

I would say that anybody who posts comments like that, filled with hate, is the one with the disease. I haven't done anything. I didn't pull my mods from the Nexus. I didn't put any mods behind a paywall. Where did all this hate come from?

Musicdude132 wrote: "Some of you are calling end-users entitled brats for wanting something for nothing. I am calling all of you mod authors that wish to be financially compensated for your work entitled brats. When you started your project, large or small, you never envisioned being paid for you work. No matter what your motivation was, money was never one of them.

Once that possibility became a reality, suddenly you're entitled to compensation? Horseshit."

Well said.

I haven't been following this debacle, but I have seen some modders attacking users for "taking away their dream of making money off of mods" and in response will no longer be uploading free mods any more. How childish.

WightMage wrote: Personally, I think modders should be compensated at some point, but I agree that the end goal of modding should not be financial, for reasons stated over the past three news threads.

WightMage wrote: FavoredSoul, I get that the modders who joined the initial program (and were subsequently burned, both by users and Valve/Bethesda) were for the most part wrongly attacked, but I'm honestly confused as to how you can believe that mod-authors were vilified alone.

I've been watching these comments threads for six days too long, and from what I've seen, the hatred has passed from Valve/Bethesda, to SPECIFIC mod authors, back to Valve, back to Bethesda, stayed with Bethesda, back to Valve, and now that the system is dead, focused on mod users, many of whom were in fact DEFENDING the right of mod authors to get paid if they so wished. When people started attacking *you*, it was because you posted a reply that attacked mod users, who in turn thought that *you* were being entitled.

Do you see the problem here? This isn't helping anything. Anytime anyone creates a large post written entirely in the spirit of passion infused hatred, it just brews more hatred and we hear each other even less and less and yell more and more in response to being heard less.

It's only getting worse, and everyone involved with this riot mongering is culpable, even the OP of this thread. But from what I gather, he and several others like him only posted this because he felt he was being attacked, just as you did originally.

TL;DR, we all seriously need to get a drink together and talk about s#*! without throwing glasses at each other's face.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think the end goal if there is one for me is maybe getting a JOB out of it, not money. Not necessarily as a game designer but I find that what is my hobby actually allows me to learn a lot of skills.

A job (which modding can feel like sometimes) is about more than money, it is about realising your potential as a human being. What was offered was a job contract, and a lousy illegal one at that which had next to no protection for anyone except themselves and a few others.

Now I like to believe that there are some great people at both Beth and Val but with things the way they are in the world they are sometimes thrown into situations and make very bad decisions in the process. The problem with big business. This does not excuse what they did but it should not mean that there cannot be an open dialogue with them so as we can express our fears and concerns so that (as this is probably inevitable) we can find a compromise that we agree on. Authors and users alike. I think we must also argue that ending free modding altogether will be their undoing eventually.

Sorry I do not know you either and I have just mouthed off my opinions on your post but I just feel there are some deep issues here we need to get to grips with.

That's my 2 cents... or what ever the hell people are saying nowadays ;D

svanderwerf wrote: this is pretty much my entire problem with Valve's handing of this clusterfeic

They took an existing and very healthy community and did the one thing absolutely guaranteed to cause an ideological war. The level of mismanagement is staggering, and I'll be amazed if whoever was responsible for this debacle still has a job.

Wolvenlight wrote: Chido, I have to take FavoredSouls side here. Regardless of whether or not paid modding was a good idea overall, (and I personally think it wasn't,) the consumer portion of the Nexus was far more filled with extreme vitriol and hatred towards the paid authors, people who have given so much for free already. Very few mod authors who tried the paid workshop actually cared enough about being compensated to the point they wouldn't have modded in the first place. When presented with the option, they tried it. It did okay for some but ultimately failed. Many of them accepted that gracefully. Heck, it was always a possibility, quite a few games allow mods to be sold. Bethesda could always make that choice, and you know this is true, because they just did. However brief it was. And if your motivation is experience and a portfolio, then money is your motivation, simple as that.

When people like you attack them, calling them entitled brats, a disease, tell them how they should think, why they should do modding, (or anything,) as if you own the very concept... coming off to others as if you think you're so much better than them because you do it for free? (Not to be confused with "for nothing.") You prove everything the paid authors say against you and the people who first started this "war." Especially because you attacked first. I don't care how many mods you've made. I've never made one in my life and I'm on the paid authors side here. You think they're delusional? We don't need your mods either. We don't need you. Bethesda doesn't need you. There will always be other people. Your opinion isn't automatically better because you've made mods for free, or at all.

Also, no, nobody is going to replace them when they leave. People will come and go as they always have, but only you and your kind have chased good people away by being so dead set against not the system for it's flaws, but the innocent people who did nothing but fall outside your banner. We have lost their mods, their ideas, their concepts and assets because of the horrible things said by people like you. I like free mods, but I like fair, kind people a lot more. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a smaller more expensive modding community than a hate filled one. (Neither exist, but hey.)

Enough is enough. It's fine if you think it's a bad idea. Discuss it's flaws, rail against Bethesda, be logical, convince people. Don't hurt innocent people, and don't let jerks goad you.


Also, please learn how to use the word "entitled" correctly. I haven't seen anyone use it right once this entire fiasco.

I would never pay for mods. Games and dlc's are expensive enough , let us not talk about cut to pieces micro dlc's for just a weapon or outfit. Why should i pay for mods that fix bugs that had to be solved by the game creator in the first place .
Most mods are made for themselfs they like to share, for the fun, for learning experience, realy,i wont pay for that.
Mods making my game intresting, sure , mods make the gameplay very intresting and makes me play longer with my games just like Skyrim . That game is 4 years now, other games even older. New games don't stay new. Why should i pay for mods that keep my old game intresting. If i need to pay 200 dollars for mods to keep a 4 year old game fun to play or even keep using mods that i already used and sudden need to pay for, well simple as that, i would buy a new game and put the rest into my pc and nothing into a old game and the mods.

As modder, for me it is the fun i got with the community, the learning experiences i get , i can show my thoughts,feelings ideas . I share my mods as others share them. To see my mods used in stories,comics or screens or companion mods means more to me then money. Edited April 30, 2015 by Xazomn

[MetalGearModder1155]

In response to post #24774814. #24776789, #24777459, #24811584, #24811694, #24811904, #24811959, #24813484, #24818104, #24818664 are all replies on the same post.

chidosity wrote:

Brasscatcher wrote: And if they don't like it, they can hit the bricks. Right on, chido!

FavoredSoul wrote: You totally missed the point of my post.

95% of my discontent had to do with the simple fact that this "issue" has brought to the surface, such a disgusting amount of hate that I never knew existed, or was even possible. And why?

Did I even have any mods for sale? No. Only about 15 people were even part of the program, let me repeat that, *FIFTEEN*, so for people like you to say that people like me are greedy and entitled, when we DIDN'T EVEN DO ANYTHING, that's the truly heart breaking part.

I was merely upset and disappointed over the fact that, for the briefest moment, the POSSIBILITY of some kind of return system existed, and it was so vilified, and so hated, that you guys decided to make, in large part, the mod-authors the target of that hate, and not bethesda and valve who were the ones that CREATED IT.

So again, when people like you say to people like me, "good riddance we don't need you", it just proves how disposable you think we are. You're happy to use our mods when we're offering, and just as readily are willing to throw us away without a second thought. You take us for granted, and that makes you nothing else but a selfish individual. And you say that I am the one with the disease?

I would say that anybody who posts comments like that, filled with hate, is the one with the disease. I haven't done anything. I didn't pull my mods from the Nexus. I didn't put any mods behind a paywall. Where did all this hate come from?

Musicdude132 wrote: "Some of you are calling end-users entitled brats for wanting something for nothing. I am calling all of you mod authors that wish to be financially compensated for your work entitled brats. When you started your project, large or small, you never envisioned being paid for you work. No matter what your motivation was, money was never one of them.

Once that possibility became a reality, suddenly you're entitled to compensation? Horseshit."

Well said.

I haven't been following this debacle, but I have seen some modders attacking users for "taking away their dream of making money off of mods" and in response will no longer be uploading free mods any more. How childish.

WightMage wrote: Personally, I think modders should be compensated at some point, but I agree that the end goal of modding should not be financial, for reasons stated over the past three news threads.

WightMage wrote: FavoredSoul, I get that the modders who joined the initial program (and were subsequently burned, both by users and Valve/Bethesda) were for the most part wrongly attacked, but I'm honestly confused as to how you can believe that mod-authors were vilified alone.

I've been watching these comments threads for six days too long, and from what I've seen, the hatred has passed from Valve/Bethesda, to SPECIFIC mod authors, back to Valve, back to Bethesda, stayed with Bethesda, back to Valve, and now that the system is dead, focused on mod users, many of whom were in fact DEFENDING the right of mod authors to get paid if they so wished. When people started attacking *you*, it was because you posted a reply that attacked mod users, who in turn thought that *you* were being entitled.

Do you see the problem here? This isn't helping anything. Anytime anyone creates a large post written entirely in the spirit of passion infused hatred, it just brews more hatred and we hear each other even less and less and yell more and more in response to being heard less.

It's only getting worse, and everyone involved with this riot mongering is culpable, even the OP of this thread. But from what I gather, he and several others like him only posted this because he felt he was being attacked, just as you did originally.

TL;DR, we all seriously need to get a drink together and talk about s#*! without throwing glasses at each other's face.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think the end goal if there is one for me is maybe getting a JOB out of it, not money. Not necessarily as a game designer but I find that what is my hobby actually allows me to learn a lot of skills.

A job (which modding can feel like sometimes) is about more than money, it is about realising your potential as a human being. What was offered was a job contract, and a lousy illegal one at that which had next to no protection for anyone except themselves and a few others.

Now I like to believe that there are some great people at both Beth and Val but with things the way they are in the world they are sometimes thrown into situations and make very bad decisions in the process. The problem with big business. This does not excuse what they did but it should not mean that there cannot be an open dialogue with them so as we can express our fears and concerns so that (as this is probably inevitable) we can find a compromise that we agree on. Authors and users alike. I think we must also argue that ending free modding altogether will be their undoing eventually.

Sorry I do not know you either and I have just mouthed off my opinions on your post but I just feel there are some deep issues here we need to get to grips with.

That's my 2 cents... or what ever the hell people are saying nowadays ;D

svanderwerf wrote: this is pretty much my entire problem with Valve's handing of this clusterfeic

They took an existing and very healthy community and did the one thing absolutely guaranteed to cause an ideological war. The level of mismanagement is staggering, and I'll be amazed if whoever was responsible for this debacle still has a job.

Wolvenlight wrote: Chido, I have to take FavoredSouls side here. Regardless of whether or not paid modding was a good idea overall, (and I personally think it wasn't,) the consumer portion of the Nexus was far more filled with extreme vitriol and hatred towards the paid authors, people who have given so much for free already. Very few mod authors who tried the paid workshop actually cared enough about being compensated to the point they wouldn't have modded in the first place. When presented with the option, they tried it. It did okay for some but ultimately failed. Many of them accepted that gracefully. Heck, it was always a possibility, quite a few games allow mods to be sold. Bethesda could always make that choice, and you know this is true, because they just did. However brief it was. And if your motivation is experience and a portfolio, then money is your motivation, simple as that.

When people like you attack them, calling them entitled brats, a disease, tell them how they should think, why they should do modding, (or anything,) as if you own the very concept... coming off to others as if you think you're so much better than them because you do it for free? (Not to be confused with "for nothing.") You prove everything the paid authors say against you and the people who first started this "war." Especially because you attacked first. I don't care how many mods you've made. I've never made one in my life and I'm on the paid authors side here. You think they're delusional? We don't need your mods either. We don't need you. Bethesda doesn't need you. There will always be other people. Your opinion isn't automatically better because you've made mods for free, or at all.

Also, no, nobody is going to replace them when they leave. People will come and go as they always have, but only you and your kind have chased good people away by being so dead set against not the system for it's flaws, but the innocent people who did nothing but fall outside your banner. We have lost their mods, their ideas, their concepts and assets because of the horrible things said by people like you. I like free mods, but I like fair, kind people a lot more. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a smaller more expensive modding community than a hate filled one. (Neither exist, but hey.)

Enough is enough. It's fine if you think it's a bad idea. Discuss it's flaws, rail against Bethesda, be logical, convince people. Don't hurt innocent people, and don't let jerks goad you.


Also, please learn how to use the word "entitled" correctly. I haven't seen anyone use it right once this entire fiasco.

Xazomn wrote: I would never pay for mods. Games and dlc's are expensive enough , let us not talk about cut to pieces micro dlc's for just a weapon or outfit. Why should i pay for mods that fix bugs that had to be solved by the game creator in the first place .
Most mods are made for themselfs they like to share, for the fun, for learning experience, realy,i wont pay for that.
Mods making my game intresting, sure , mods make the gameplay very intresting and makes me play longer with my games just like Skyrim . That game is 4 years now, other games even older. New games don't stay new. Why should i pay for mods that keep my old game intresting. If i need to pay 200 dollars for mods to keep a 4 year old game fun to play or even keep using mods that i already used and sudden need to pay for, well simple as that, i would buy a new game and put the rest into my pc and nothing into a old game and the mods.

As modder, for me it is the fun i got with the community, the learning experiences i get , i can show my thoughts,feelings ideas . I share my mods as others share them. To see my mods used in stories,comics or screens or companion mods means more to me then money.

You'll never know what you have until you don't have it anymore.

It's mainly to make a point about how, when an opportunity to make money vanished, people will complain, crash, and burn about how unfair it was that it was taken away... even if they were totally fine with pay-less modding, just to put on their resumé.

The same thing with the people who USE the mods... they have free mods from absurdly kind people in the community, but they don't even donate. What [else] happens (aside from the concern of crappy, low-quality content that might not even work) when that gets taken away? An uprising, and people LEARN what they had, as it's been taken away.

Personally, I'm too warm-hearted plenty of the time, so I end up feeling so bad when some good modder, such as FavoredSoul, gets up and leaves because no-one was appreciating them for their hard work. (AGAIN, Steam. Donate button, custom message from author. That'd fix so much.)

Yet, people don't seem to get that it was their fault for not actually giving credit to good modders for their work. Instead, when the modder even THINKS of taking advantage of the new system, they get bashed and beaten for wanting to feel accomplished for their work, thanks to worthless stacks of green paper.

May sound trite: but give damn credit where it's deserved. I mean, come on, SKSE and SkyUI both are very well-done. The SkyUI is eye-pleasing, fancy, and it's not terribly clunky either. SKSE... it allows you to create mods, basically.

Also, alter account was lost. Don't mind the post history. Edited April 30, 2015 by MetalGearModder1155

[Ghatto]

In response to post #24808104. #24814359, #24816149, #24817744 are all replies on the same post.

GoldenDragonRider wrote:

blackasm wrote: you hit the nail on the head bro, it is not right at all. The worst part of this is that the users don't even see their entitlement (do they ever) and just assume that form of creation must always be utterly worthless. Of course many of these users claiming Bethesda and valve are thieves for taking a huge risk and keeping modding alive in general (remember they really don't have to support modders and it only barely adds to their revenue stream while adding a buckton of headaches). well in an age where less and less game studios hire mod makers or even support mod development (that was really more of a 10+ years ago thing) and where artists work is devalued more and more artists like me need to seriously reconsider our involvement with communities that would further devalue our creative efforts while benefitting off of them, I mean lets not forget the reality here, the nexus mod site and its users benefit more directly from the content of mod authors more than Bethesda or valve does.

Ghatto wrote: Poor analogies both.

People are angry at the painter because a 'free' painting in the gallery (mod) will leave that gallery. If they wanted to pay him for making a new work unassociated with the gallery (separate game) nobody could stop him or really complain.

Your musician friend plays at a show for money, consumers have to pay money for a ticket. This is like how every single modder and user here must pay Bethesda for the game (a ticket) in order to use mods. If the audience was forced to tip your friend for their music in addition to the ticket there would be more contention and argument about value. Admittedly, in this example, Bethesda does not share the proceeds of that ticket, but that's not the consumers fault.

GoldenDragonRider wrote: I'm interested in your statements:
1)
(a) In many cases, the Painter (mod maker) did not remove their old work from the Gallery (Nexus), they made a newer version of their old work or entirely new pieces of artwork (mods). If the old is there for all to enjoy what's the harm of selling a new one?

(b) I know some modders decided to remove their mods from the Nexus and put them up for sale only. But isn't everyone allowed to make a living doing what they want provided it's legal?

2)
I think I see your statement for you this one. You're saying "we paid for the game and the right to be able to mod it", and "if we pay for mods we'll be; paying once for the game and to ability to mod the game, then paying again for the ability to use the mod." Kinda like the WoW and ESO when it first came out, buy once, then keep paying to be able to play. Correct?

Although, I can't disagree that buying the game does give you the ability to mod it at will, why does that mean that modders don't deserve the option to make money?

If (2) was your point I can kind of see why many mod users do have a problem with the pay-to-mod system. But that doesn't explain why people blame the mod authors...

I personally disliked the selling of mods, however, what right do I have to force them that they can't make a living in that way?

The common argument that they should have asked nicely for donations or setup a Paetron/Kickstarter account or something. And I'd agree I've got much more incentive to give money in that way than be forced, but from my interpretations of the events, before this became active, it was not common knowledge that such options were open, the only way I knew it existed was a list of donars on the Immersive Armours page (I think it was that mod), but I didn't know how to donate, and maybe I was a little cheap and hadn't gone looking for it. And because of modding being in a legal grey area and/or in accordance with the Nexus you couldn't just ask for money. People say modders were offered a chance to make money and all of a sudden they betrayed us and the spirit of modding, my second-best friend says a similar thing, but I disagree. To me, in the eyes of the modder it was "We've been given the green flag that we now have a second option, maybe we could make a side-career out of it and improve our work." I know there's always going to be some people who want to make a quick buck, but they're the minority.

is that everything I wanted to say? I think so...

1A) It's debatable whether or not consumers would consider the 'new versions' as a separate product and therefore free from being considered 'removed' or at least, if we want to be more accurate: the product (and transaction) on offer was modified, resulting in contempt from the original users. Your logic is fine, but doesn't take into account the very complex relationship between users and makers and the crux of the issue is that no matter how rudely consumers act, the amount of abuse they can hurl, the only ones in that relationship who stand to feel worse off/cheated/ripped off/whatever is the consumer, because their enjoyment of said product/service is co-dependant on its offering.

In the gallery example, the feelings users had about these newly sold versions is akin to the artist making 'Mona Lisa' for the free gallery and then making 'New and improved Mona Lisa' for paid. Separate product or not, the free users feel short-changed because it feels like the value of the free product has been downplayed by the new product.

This is really similar to the experience of buying say, a new computer and next month and newer better computer is available for the same price. But actually it's worse than that feeling because the original buy in is 'free' and no matter how much people try to avoid it; free is always a completely different kind of transaction/relationship than paid no matter if it's like 1 cent.

In this case the issue was exacerbated by free mods that we were aware were getting updates and patiently waiting on, only to discover that our expectations had to be moved completely outside of what we could have predicted.

1B) Maybe. But that doesn't exclude their products or their decisions from criticism. Which is a real big part of the debacle here and elsewhere: While nobody would say they condone abuse/threats et. al. and the old line 'don't like it don't buy it' is thrown around, at the end of the day everybody is allowed to be concerned. A lot of the debate here focuses on the tired old concept of supposed 'entitlement' but what nobody will acknowledge is that it doesn't exist and that everybody who has paid/not paid and everybody is upset/not upset is what it is, and speculating on what people deserve/don't deserve and how much people might've/might've not made is meaningless.

2) see 1B) From a consumer point of view they have X to spend, and ascribe value to X at their own will, not by others. As selfish as it sounds, most don't care and won't care about the makers. The end product and its value as a transaction is the end of the bargain for an end-user. I'll make my personal bias known that I have never been in favour of modern gaming marketplaces such as free-to-play, MMOs with subs, microtransactions, or piecemeal DLC that may or may not be on the disc. I'm only interested in buying the full game if available and leave it at that.

In the Skyrim's case, paying X value for the game is the initial transaction I (and other consumers possibly) are willing to accept. Users become comfortable with free modding as an extension of that value with no additional contemplation about value. Never forget that it's a laborious task to consider the value of something and then commit to purchase; free doesn't have this problem. I would prefer that I spend my time enjoying my game once purchased over continuing to shop. Changing this dynamic forces consumers to change their consideration of value and jump through mental (and financial) hoops to find the same experience.

People blame the mod-authors because they are the primary point of contact with this system. And if you'd pardon my analogy, we often attack/treat the symptoms of a disease when we should be focusing on the underlying cause. People were mad at this system being introduced and changing their experience/community, and modders showing some kind of tacit approval of this system made them an 'enemy' in some peoples eyes - an enemy only exists when an ideology you dislike has someone fighting for it. Also fear: I didn't like this change and seeing modders use it, and the debacle that follwed confirmed by fears.

Modders deserved less confrontation than Bethesda/Valve did, and I noticed that the upset was aimed at EVERYBODY; but alas, the modders, as simple individuals could weather it less.

People will feel forced when they are faced with more complication, and the impression that they afford less choice. As many have already said: people would likely have felt compelled to buy by some mod dependency, or compelled to not-buy through a lack of quality assurance. If I was to make absolutes, I'd say nobody was forced to do anything (true), but everybody was forced to participate with this new system (also true).

I'll agree with your last paragraph mostly, only caveat to say that speculating on what should have been done, or said in the past is kinda pointless. That and that I completely disagree that the level of underhanded quick-buck makers would have been a minority, only because every other relevant field has history to say otherwise. Mods being mostly free was a natural deterrent to shysters because they'd expect little to no return on investment.

[leigonlord]

In response to post #24808104. #24814359, #24816149, #24817744, #24819819 are all replies on the same post.

GoldenDragonRider wrote:

blackasm wrote: you hit the nail on the head bro, it is not right at all. The worst part of this is that the users don't even see their entitlement (do they ever) and just assume that form of creation must always be utterly worthless. Of course many of these users claiming Bethesda and valve are thieves for taking a huge risk and keeping modding alive in general (remember they really don't have to support modders and it only barely adds to their revenue stream while adding a buckton of headaches). well in an age where less and less game studios hire mod makers or even support mod development (that was really more of a 10+ years ago thing) and where artists work is devalued more and more artists like me need to seriously reconsider our involvement with communities that would further devalue our creative efforts while benefitting off of them, I mean lets not forget the reality here, the nexus mod site and its users benefit more directly from the content of mod authors more than Bethesda or valve does.

Ghatto wrote: Poor analogies both.

People are angry at the painter because a 'free' painting in the gallery (mod) will leave that gallery. If they wanted to pay him for making a new work unassociated with the gallery (separate game) nobody could stop him or really complain.

Your musician friend plays at a show for money, consumers have to pay money for a ticket. This is like how every single modder and user here must pay Bethesda for the game (a ticket) in order to use mods. If the audience was forced to tip your friend for their music in addition to the ticket there would be more contention and argument about value. Admittedly, in this example, Bethesda does not share the proceeds of that ticket, but that's not the consumers fault.

GoldenDragonRider wrote: I'm interested in your statements:
1)
(a) In many cases, the Painter (mod maker) did not remove their old work from the Gallery (Nexus), they made a newer version of their old work or entirely new pieces of artwork (mods). If the old is there for all to enjoy what's the harm of selling a new one?

(b) I know some modders decided to remove their mods from the Nexus and put them up for sale only. But isn't everyone allowed to make a living doing what they want provided it's legal?

2)
I think I see your statement for you this one. You're saying "we paid for the game and the right to be able to mod it", and "if we pay for mods we'll be; paying once for the game and to ability to mod the game, then paying again for the ability to use the mod." Kinda like the WoW and ESO when it first came out, buy once, then keep paying to be able to play. Correct?

Although, I can't disagree that buying the game does give you the ability to mod it at will, why does that mean that modders don't deserve the option to make money?

If (2) was your point I can kind of see why many mod users do have a problem with the pay-to-mod system. But that doesn't explain why people blame the mod authors...

I personally disliked the selling of mods, however, what right do I have to force them that they can't make a living in that way?

The common argument that they should have asked nicely for donations or setup a Paetron/Kickstarter account or something. And I'd agree I've got much more incentive to give money in that way than be forced, but from my interpretations of the events, before this became active, it was not common knowledge that such options were open, the only way I knew it existed was a list of donars on the Immersive Armours page (I think it was that mod), but I didn't know how to donate, and maybe I was a little cheap and hadn't gone looking for it. And because of modding being in a legal grey area and/or in accordance with the Nexus you couldn't just ask for money. People say modders were offered a chance to make money and all of a sudden they betrayed us and the spirit of modding, my second-best friend says a similar thing, but I disagree. To me, in the eyes of the modder it was "We've been given the green flag that we now have a second option, maybe we could make a side-career out of it and improve our work." I know there's always going to be some people who want to make a quick buck, but they're the minority.

is that everything I wanted to say? I think so...

Ghatto wrote: 1A) It's debatable whether or not consumers would consider the 'new versions' as a separate product and therefore free from being considered 'removed' or at least, if we want to be more accurate: the product (and transaction) on offer was modified, resulting in contempt from the original users. Your logic is fine, but doesn't take into account the very complex relationship between users and makers and the crux of the issue is that no matter how rudely consumers act, the amount of abuse they can hurl, the only ones in that relationship who stand to feel worse off/cheated/ripped off/whatever is the consumer, because their enjoyment of said product/service is co-dependant on its offering.

In the gallery example, the feelings users had about these newly sold versions is akin to the artist making 'Mona Lisa' for the free gallery and then making 'New and improved Mona Lisa' for paid. Separate product or not, the free users feel short-changed because it feels like the value of the free product has been downplayed by the new product.

This is really similar to the experience of buying say, a new computer and next month and newer better computer is available for the same price. But actually it's worse than that feeling because the original buy in is 'free' and no matter how much people try to avoid it; free is always a completely different kind of transaction/relationship than paid no matter if it's like 1 cent.

In this case the issue was exacerbated by free mods that we were aware were getting updates and patiently waiting on, only to discover that our expectations had to be moved completely outside of what we could have predicted.

1B) Maybe. But that doesn't exclude their products or their decisions from criticism. Which is a real big part of the debacle here and elsewhere: While nobody would say they condone abuse/threats et. al. and the old line 'don't like it don't buy it' is thrown around, at the end of the day everybody is allowed to be concerned. A lot of the debate here focuses on the tired old concept of supposed 'entitlement' but what nobody will acknowledge is that it doesn't exist and that everybody who has paid/not paid and everybody is upset/not upset is what it is, and speculating on what people deserve/don't deserve and how much people might've/might've not made is meaningless.

2) see 1B) From a consumer point of view they have X to spend, and ascribe value to X at their own will, not by others. As selfish as it sounds, most don't care and won't care about the makers. The end product and its value as a transaction is the end of the bargain for an end-user. I'll make my personal bias known that I have never been in favour of modern gaming marketplaces such as free-to-play, MMOs with subs, microtransactions, or piecemeal DLC that may or may not be on the disc. I'm only interested in buying the full game if available and leave it at that.

In the Skyrim's case, paying X value for the game is the initial transaction I (and other consumers possibly) are willing to accept. Users become comfortable with free modding as an extension of that value with no additional contemplation about value. Never forget that it's a laborious task to consider the value of something and then commit to purchase; free doesn't have this problem. I would prefer that I spend my time enjoying my game once purchased over continuing to shop. Changing this dynamic forces consumers to change their consideration of value and jump through mental (and financial) hoops to find the same experience.

People blame the mod-authors because they are the primary point of contact with this system. And if you'd pardon my analogy, we often attack/treat the symptoms of a disease when we should be focusing on the underlying cause. People were mad at this system being introduced and changing their experience/community, and modders showing some kind of tacit approval of this system made them an 'enemy' in some peoples eyes - an enemy only exists when an ideology you dislike has someone fighting for it. Also fear: I didn't like this change and seeing modders use it, and the debacle that follwed confirmed by fears.

Modders deserved less confrontation than Bethesda/Valve did, and I noticed that the upset was aimed at EVERYBODY; but alas, the modders, as simple individuals could weather it less.

People will feel forced when they are faced with more complication, and the impression that they afford less choice. As many have already said: people would likely have felt compelled to buy by some mod dependency, or compelled to not-buy through a lack of quality assurance. If I was to make absolutes, I'd say nobody was forced to do anything (true), but everybody was forced to participate with this new system (also true).

I'll agree with your last paragraph mostly, only caveat to say that speculating on what should have been done, or said in the past is kinda pointless. That and that I completely disagree that the level of underhanded quick-buck makers would have been a minority, only because every other relevant field has history to say otherwise. Mods being mostly free was a natural deterrent to shysters because they'd expect little to no return on investment.

im all for modders getting the money they deserve, but how many mods are worth paying for, a handful definetly, the majority not really.

[kusman]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704, #24755774, #24755999, #24756039, #24756394, #24756489, #24756599, #24756669, #24756944, #24757404, #24757709, #24757794, #24757819, #24757959, #24758109, #24758244, #24758549, #24758604, #24758779, #24758789, #24759069, #24760799, #24760824, #24765454, #24765899, #24766564, #24766884, #24767039, #24767164, #24769074, #24769604, #24770129, #24770469, #24770524, #24770899, #24771494, #24771584, #24771729, #24771929, #24772554, #24773334, #24811954, #24812669, #24812944, #24813194, #24813974 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but cańt understand you...

donsolidad wrote: @mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

The only thing those 10 percents show is that the endorsement system is inadequate as a praise measurement, and is not something you should use as a base for your argument.

sdupp wrote: @ mannygt Agree with your post, but i don't think it was the only reason for some modders to sell mods as a greedy modder.

caffeinatedNetling wrote: Regarding the protest mod having lots of endorsements: Get people emotionally involved with the process of making the mod noticed, and of freaking course they're going to endorse.

macintroll wrote: It's just show that 90% of users are just leechers ^^

caffeinatedNetling wrote: I typically have "modding sessions" that literally last for days, going straight from vanilla to the setup I'll play through the following months (without even so much as updating anything, I lost too many saves already).
If I could endorse the mods I download in these sessions when I have them open, I would, but by the time the countdown before the endorsements are enabled reaches zero, I can't even remember what I have downloaded anymore.

EDIT: I went to my profile to actually look at what I have endorsed and it's pretty hilarious. 90% of my endorsements have been made from the download pop-up, on the same day during my last "modding rush".

sunshinenbrick wrote: This might be very unpopular but could a ratio counter between downloads and endorsements have any help in this particular situation. Later on when a proper well thought out and unexploitative polite paying system is eventually introduced (because it more than likely will) it could be expanded to that as well as a form of quality control.

The way it works, well it gives people a kinda nudge if they are deemed to be abusing the system. A better thought out version of how Steam tried to battle the stealing mod refund situation.

Would not be surprised if this wasn't just a big data collection exercise.

MacAban wrote: @ caffeinatedNetling

Account options > Download History, if you want to correct that. You can even endorse from there.

skinnytecboy wrote: This comment started very nicely.. actually put a smile on my face. I thought to myself "Ah finally they're all playing nicely". Let me dream a little more please :)

P.s. I for one enjoy making mods and playing mods and my motives are purely personal. However, it's always nice to know that people like what you do. Its nice to feel approval even if it isn't asked for.

So spread some love and hit those endorsement buttons my fine furry friends :)

myrrdin35 wrote: With everything that has happened, the very thing you bring up has been on my mind also but in a different way. I'm a mod user, I've tried so many times to make a mod but my brain just can't wrap around that CK. I love what mod authors have brought to my gaming and many times in surprising ways. The problem is I have limited ways to give feedback to mod authors. I can hit the "Endorse" button and/or make a
post on the mod page that usually gets buried very quickly. Neither of these options is ideal for mod authors and users.

I think the Nexus needs to take some time and make the site more user friendly. Right now we have the Top 100 (useless, same mods forever), the hot files (highlights some popular new mods, but they are gone too quickly), and then files of the month (which is buried on the side of the page and not prominent). I think a couple of things can be done so more mods get some exposure and helps us the mod
users interact with you guys the makers.

One, add a review area to the mod pages. And I mean real reviews not just your mod is great or it sucks. Talk about technical stuff, if a quest mod how long did it take, if a texture pack did it look good, and so on. Also make it so we can follow reviewers. Say someone is really good and I can trust their feedback, I would love a way to follow their reviews.

Two, a mod spotlight. It can be an old mod, new one, big or small. Just something that is different, works and could be a good addition to someones game. This could definately highlight some lesser known or older mods that people never new existed.

Three, an area where mod users could upload their mod lists with notes on what kind of playthrough they are for and how well the mods work together and maybe installation notes if needed. Say I wanted a survivalist playthrough or maybe a hardcore your gonna die one or a very well put together texture overhaul. I mean how many times have you seen people say recommend me some mods, but its never that simple. This would definately give more exposure to more mod makers. Also it would give people a base to work from.

Four, Make the files of the month more prominent. There usually is a mix of different mods that people are voting for and it deserves some better screen real
estate.

There are probably many more, these are just the ones I could think of right now. I don't know if any of this is doable or not. But I do know as a mod user, it is frustrating right now trying to give proper feedback. I will say mod makers and mod users should always try to show respect for each other. I told my children when they started using the internet. Remember, the written word doesn't show your face and emotion when you are talking to someone. If you are upset or angry or frustrated, go ahead and type what you want, but don't hit the send button. Walk away for 5 minutes, cool off, think. Then come back read what you wrote and if it doesn't sound right, delete it or rewrite your point in a much calmer way. Communication is not easy to do right, so taking a little time will benefit all in the end.

stanleemojo wrote: Many of these DL's are from several countries and more than likely do not speak/read English. I've done this in the past with a Russian modding site, not able to understand a word of it, managing to obtain the mods :\

NDDragor wrote: In my opinion its laziness or just not understanding what the endorsement button means. Many people think that it wont change anything if the endorse or leave a comment but I recently uploaded my first mod and for me each endorsment or feedback which my mod gets is a signal that people are liking my mod and that I should keep up my work. Plus all feedbacks (negative and positive) are helping me to work on my mod.

I wont say that I am always leaving a comment or endorsing a file but I really try to make the authors understand that their mods are good if I enjoyed them or point out bugs and issues if there were some. I have played 34 mods until now and endorsed 26 of them. And I have to agree with others about not endorsing downloaded mods because I haven't tried them. Right now I have 45 mods on my list which I have to play.

Well... to make it short. You wont overstrain yourself by clicking on the endorsement button or writing a small comment and the author will most likely appreciate your feedback.

skinnytecboy wrote: @myrrdin35

Regarding help from the modding community, perhaps you're not looking in the right place. There are amazing forums here that are a wealth of knowledge and people willing to help unlock it's secrets. .. there's also Google ;)

I really like your review idea btw.

Primalsplit wrote: I think mannygt has the right of it here. More people should endorse mods. I admit I wasn't paying much attention with my endorsements (mainly because of the 45 minutes limit). I download a mod, test/play it and then I either be done with testing it within 10 minutes or I just play it for 1-2 hours, sometimes for 3 hours and more. I just forgot endorsing it.

I hope this will be a good lesson to all of us. We as a community should look after each other more. Personally speaking, lesson learned. I advice everyone to be more sensitive towards this subject.

MrGrymReaper wrote: @mannygt - Did you make any endorsements during the painful growth period of the Nexus by chance please?

Cause if you did or accidently clicked on the feature for the endorse/undorse during a hic-cup they may have been lost or undone accidentally. It happended to me several times in the past with my slow internet connection.

As a result I was wondering whether the admin has somewhere on the server which keeps a record of endorsements especially those which were endorsed and quickly suddenly un-endorsed.

The reason being I now there's a lot of mods to endorse and/or vote for some of which I now can't post a comment in (following the previous crisis we went through).

So if an admin could please go through the locked or hidden comment mods which I have download and endorsed to please a word of thanks. It would be much appreciated!

Dirtysocks wrote: I'm not the poster child for feedback on mods myself, I endorse the mods I use and kudos the authors I truly believe made a fantastic mod, however I do believe personally that your no. of downloads is a much more impressive way to tally your mods success, endorsements are a bonus

In any game only a fraction are active in the forums and chats as such, this does not mean for a second that the remainder do not enjoy the game, they are just less vocal about their excitement

Fowldragon wrote: how do people come to conclusions without citing the supporting evidence...

FalSkaar has over 1 million downloads according to the Author..People have commented and critiqued it and AV has made extensive revisions..but Ungrateful? You've ignored all the acclaim and the fact that Falskaar is overwhelmingly if not Universally considered ICONIC as a DLC size mod...

If I tell my kid that he needs to work on this or that, am I unloving, not proud? If His Eng teacher gives him a B- on an ESSAY should he be justified in assuming that EVERYONE hates him?

If you want to make conclusions about endorsements you might consider that POLLING people to get their opinions is a PROACTIVE method, whereas the system in place to ENDORSE mods is completely PASSIVE in its approach.

zcul wrote: Hi MannyGT,

I fully second this and your previous post. I checked the endorsement rate for some other mods - the same 5 to 10 % maximum (?????).

After installing and running a mod, it takes a minute or 2 for returning to the modder's site and just say "thanks for your work" and maybe some thoughts on it, especially if one keeps it installed, because he/she likes it. All that is a small and humble gesture in return and in comparison with the time and work a modder invested to make a mod and share it with the community to enhance and improve the game for all and - for free.
And the best, doing so as a user does hurt in any way - I tried that myself.

b6lph6gor6 wrote: I endorse every mod I like, meaning every mod that I don't uninstall immediately after testing it. If I had to estimate, I'd say I like (and endorse) about 80% of the mods I download.

Although I have to admit that I'm lazy as well. Since I can't endorse the mod immediately after trying it (I like my game to feel vanilla, so I mostly use simple, lightweight mods that don't require a long period of testing for me to determine if I like and keep using them) I often forget to endorse the files. If it weren't for the NMM, half of the mods I use would still wait for my endorsement.

Gamwich wrote: Actually, 10% is considered a very high percentage on Nexus. That's something that I've learned over my time here.

If you can crack the 10% barrier, then you've really accomplished something. ;)

meredithmiles wrote: I do creative works in another fan-based community, and the 10 percent response is a well-known ratio there as well. If you hit about 10% kudos/thanks/likes etc. of the 100% that downloaded your work, you are doing well. I've been watching the numbers for almost 15 years, and that is a solid, persistent statistic.

I've always thought it was odd, how consistent it was.

Personally, I use endorsements as an actual personal endorsement. I'm saying "I've checked this out and suggest it to others". So I try to be sure I've actually used it and it was reasonably solid. Sometimes I will give kudos as encouragement when an otherwise worthy mod I won't really use much gets panned or ignored, even if I won't use it for long myself.

One thing I want to point out to Nexus members, if I can borrow your post to do it:

There are quite a few amazingly kind and helpful people who haunt comment threads and do impromptu tech support for mods around the Nexus. Both modders and mod users owe them a debt, and I wonder about appropriate ways to express collective appreciation for them. Any ideas?

MisterGibson wrote: If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

Jack Wow wrote: Just like FavouredSoul just said:-
"Its hard enough getting people to click a button to endorse a mod, let alone get people to use a donate button to give me the 5c they would rather keep."
- Me? - 1700 endorsements so far. Best I start putting my money where my mouth is. With 3600 hours of playing Skyrim under the belt, I know how much I owe the Nexus and the modding community.

greggorypeccary wrote: A lot of people seem to want to tell other people the reasons why they should mod and what the wrong reasons are. It must be nice to know everything.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @greggorypeccary

I completely agree.

Azulyn wrote: If you want to see entitled, work a customer service job.
as someone else said, modders owe the community nothing, and the people downloading said mods owe modders nothing. If you're sick of your hobby then stop uploading your work. Easy and simple as that. Want to get paid for your work? Go into game design or get involved with a gaming company.
Better yet, just wait until the new Elder Scrolls is released. I'm sure they're going to implement a paid mod system in future installments. This was just their messy test run.
I won't bother playing future Bethesda games in that case. Sorry if that makes me sound like a cheap, entitled asshole, but I can't afford to piss away all my money just to make the base game enjoyable and bug free. Games are expensive enough as is.
There's a reason I refuse to purchase skins and other micro-transactions for the games I play. I won't even get into the compatibly/stability issues most mods bring. It's been talked about to death at this point.

arxerisdam wrote: what about we get a i dont like this mod button?

and see how popular a mod really is, that would be fair.

greggorypeccary wrote: My prediction is the end of modding as we know it. The is just no incentive any more. I think more and more modders will find outlets for their creativity and move on. The people that keep saying " if you don't like it don't do it" will get their wish. Imagine your loadorders with only official dlc's. It won't be the greed of the modders that causes this, it's the greed and apathy of the community combines with outright usery of companies that really do already profit from mods that will cause the end.

Azulyn wrote: lol melodramatic much?
people need to hush with this modding will end nonsense. Even if every single talented mod author left right now, there will always be fresh faces to fill their spot.

greggorypeccary wrote: Don't think things can't change. Change is constant. Once people don't feel appreciated they will look for it elsewhere. The more the evidence adds up that the community is largely un grateful for the work modders do the more the likelihood that they will move to something that will satisfy them in some way. Add to that the fact that others are profiting from their work but they are somehow supposed to be above all that and you are practicaly driving them away. The best you'll be able to hope for is the inexperienced modder that wants to cut his teeth. This could have been avoided if the community nurtured modders for the fruit they bore and maybe if the nexus acknowledged how well they are doing for themselves providing those mods that modders should not profit from.

dasgones wrote: I'm one of those @$$holes. I've endorsed very few mods here and have downloaded many. I honestly thought my time playing skyrim would be only a few months, but since i fell into the community i've spent more time applying mods than playing with them. i'm picky and freeloading. This whole conflict has opened my eyes, however, and i'm going to be a lot more responsible in displaying my appreciation. this goes for almost all users that know what has happened. I really am apologetic to you because i'm becoming a bit of a fan of your work. it's impressive. I think ELFX look 4 times better than RLO. Immersive Helgen is incredible and your ENB presets are pure effin' magic. I was too absorbed in pleasing my enjoyment of the game to appreciate what was actually going on to make it that way. but I recognize this now. I honestly think that the best thing to come out of the last week in our community is that we now know what we look like. While I support free mods (i'm a freeloader because i'm cheap) I realize that the work I appreciate comes at a freely offered price. I need to respect that and endorse and get more involved. This week brought a lot of people off the fence. I do believe I need to be more generous in supporting mod authors, and I'm sorry I haven't been. this is something that everyone will see a lot of in the near future.

pigtailsboy wrote: You saying the interne... I mean nexus community is ungrateful? Are you saying that peop... I mean nexus community members don't vote? Are you saying that Huma... I mean nexus members are inherently flawed?

Do you have a blanket point that could easily be applied to the larger civilization of the Human race?

Leonord wrote: I dindt even learn what endorsing means after two years of modding skyrim. Others just forget or are too lazy to do it. Thats the reason why.

Spencerbilodeau wrote: zzjay... I REALLY dig your mods. I would endorse them all day long.

Dreadpap wrote: There are plenty of mods I've downloaded multiple times, but can only endorse once.
Also just because i download a mod, it doesn't mean I'll like it, most of them I uninstall.
Your whole reasoning is based on the false belief that if you download something it means you are going to use it and just steal it for yourself.
The mods I use and enjoy I endorse and most people do the same. But that's a lot smaller group than all the downloaded mods.

Honestly your use of data in this post is so wrong and bleeds form so many wounds there is no point in countering what you were actually trying to say, but if you really want to know what the community is like check the forums. I usually post something there about the mods I download. Usually something nice.

phantompally76 wrote: Manny,

You have received more endorsements in the past month than most mod authors have received in 4 years. Why are you complaining about endorsements?

I endorse quality mods that I personally enjoy. That's as far as the social contract goes.

I'm no more obligated to endorse every mod I download than I am to pay money for them. There are simply too many mod authors with rotten attitudes, too many poor-quality mods, too many offensive/sexist/racist mods out there that shouldn't even be allowed to be hosted on this site for me to adapt a mentality that now everyone deserves endorsements just because they can't get paid.

I don't like Gray Cowl of Nocturne. I tested it, and I didn't like it. It doesn't add anything to my personal gameplay experience. I'm not about to tell people that DO like it that they're wrong, because different strokes for different folks. But I won't be putting it in my load order. Ergo, vis a vis, condordantly.....I'm not going to endorse it.

Conversely, I absolutely adore Silverfish Grotto. It's one of my very favorite player homes, and it's on my Top Five list of player homes extant. It's one of the most immersive houses to have been created for the game, and it's perfect for my tastes and sensibilities. Hence.....I have LONG since endorsed it, and would endorse it AGAIN if I could.

The point here is that just because I don't endorse a mod doesn't mean I don't appreciate the mod author. It doesn't mean I'm a jerk. It doesn't mean anything other than I didn't like that particular mod. Don't take it so personally.

Endorsements are on a mod-by-mod basis. In plain English, when a user clicks the ENDORSE button, they are endorsing the mod, not the mod author. You can argue the semantics of the dictionary definition of "endorsement" all you want to, but if you want the setup to change, then you need to request Dark0ne to put the ENDORSE button on the author's profile page rather than on individual mods....where it will be even LESS visible and LESS likely to be clicked.

I don't know where you or anyone else get off thinking it's my obligation to endorse every mod I download. I realize we live in a time where everyone is a unique snowflake, and everyone gets a participation trophy, and everyone can easily audition for American Idol and be humiliated and crushed and realize we might not be as special as the enablers surrounding us led us to believe. But I'm not about to compromise my own ethics, morality, ideals and beliefs just to make your or anyone else feel better about themselves.

Endorsements are a privilege, not a right.

Poyuma wrote: Gotta be honest, I didn't even know what endorsments meant/did. I am absoultely grateful that these mods are free and well put together so I guess I will endorse all the mods I have downloaded :)

greggorypeccary wrote: pigtailsboy

Acknowledging the fault as status quo is not a solution.

As far as endorsements go, well they are a kind of thumbs up to other users looking for a mod. They are not a thank you to the modder they are not some kind of psuedo payment. All it does is say "I think other people will like this. They do nothing for the modder at all, in fact you are not even engaging the modder by endorsing the mod.

animalwtcm wrote: I've got got at least 20 hrs in reading comments her in the past 3 days, & wow what a soap?? But i still can't stop thinkin what modders like manny will do with witcher 3 ?? Ya i now, off the wall....... just to much><><><>? Happy moddin.....

TSotP wrote: i have a simple rule for endorsements.

Did the Mod do what it said it was going to do? if Yes, Endorsed!

Musicdude132 wrote: This is where modders are showing off a nasty side.

Saying people are ungrateful for not clicking a button that many don't even know exists in the first place? Please.....

You can't be serious.

Demonica wrote: @ mannygt:

A fair point, but I think you could have used a better word than "ungrateful". Feel free to look at my profile

1,274 Endorsements

Regards

diyeath wrote: @ ramccoid or perhaps it means that the internet was in flames and galvanized the community into action.

endorsements mean exposure and popularity, downloads is generally a better indicator of how good your mod is, as are the comments people leave behind.

This is simply a math equation with variables. If you screw up a variable of course you get a skewed answer such as Manny's "the community is ungrateful".

This crap is getting stupid. Why are we fighting over things that were never an issue? Because some mod authors and some mod users were silly and did bad things? Grow up people, lol.

Lets move past this tragic event guys, enough is enough.

svanderwerf wrote: and in some areas, only 25% of eligible electorate bother to vote.

Opt-in participation will always lead to low returns, simply because people in general won't do a thing they don't have to, even if doing it is virtually effortless. It's not so much that people are ungrateful, but that there is no advantage in going back after the wait period and hitting the button.

What would be really nice, is if a mod manager could dial home with how much playtime a mod has had. Rather than the page saying that 5% of people have bothered to click a button, how nice would it be to see 10,000 downloads, 500,000 active hours.

TheFlamingRed wrote: Looking purely at statisitcs is very misleading. Know that Youtubers can have thousands of subscribers, and some of their videos only have a few hundred views. Videos with millions of views may only have a few thousand people click the Like or Don't like button (1-10% is quite normal), and even less people will subscribe to a person, despite probably watching almost every single of their videos. Its a fact that most of a fanbase is actually completely silent.

I am subscribed to Linsey Stirling, a violinist who dances a bit - I have never clicked like on her video, never once commented. To her, I am silent, not contributing. However, in her case, I bought both her albums through amazon - I have told lots of my friends about her who may one day buy her album and been to her gigs on two occassions. When I was teaching, there was one video I would show a class as I thought it had a good message within the video, and from that, one student (who was one of the students who was interested in dance anyway) inquired directly about her. This girl maybe completely inspired by her and her life changed because of this video (unlikely but... small events in childhood can effect out lives).

The point is, the silent downloaders, who are probably the majority of any fanbase, mods in this case, appreciate what you do. We may not endorce or say thank you or comment or anything like that - and maybe some may deem us as ungrateful or unworthy to have these mods, byt know that most of us who remain silent appreciate the work you do, will spread it, and get enjoyment from it. When people release things for free on the interent, be it a mod or a youtube video, I hope that knowledge alone gives the mod makers, the youtubers, some satisfaction by putting your mod out there.

Sometime i miss the endorsment button because of 15 mnt delay from nexus before you can endorse a mod(and another 15mnt if you clicked earlier). This tend to make people forgot to endorse the mod author.
But i do think many ungrateful person is exist on the nexus, bad mouthing authors on their mod page because their mod is not lore friendly or the mod are simply doesn't follow their taste. And worst, using endorsement as threat againts the mod author.

[Deleted1016523User]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704, #24755774, #24755999, #24756039, #24756394, #24756489, #24756599, #24756669, #24756944, #24757404, #24757709, #24757794, #24757819, #24757959, #24758109, #24758244, #24758549, #24758604, #24758779, #24758789, #24759069, #24760799, #24760824, #24765454, #24765899, #24766564, #24766884, #24767039, #24767164, #24769074, #24769604, #24770129, #24770469, #24770524, #24770899, #24771494, #24771584, #24771729, #24771929, #24772554, #24773334, #24811954, #24812669, #24812944, #24813194, #24813974, #24820479 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*&#33; out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but ca&nacute;t understand you...

donsolidad wrote: @mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

The only thing those 10 percents show is that the endorsement system is inadequate as a praise measurement, and is not something you should use as a base for your argument.

sdupp wrote: @ mannygt Agree with your post, but i don't think it was the only reason for some modders to sell mods as a greedy modder.

caffeinatedNetling wrote: Regarding the protest mod having lots of endorsements: Get people emotionally involved with the process of making the mod noticed, and of freaking course they're going to endorse.

macintroll wrote: It's just show that 90% of users are just leechers ^^

caffeinatedNetling wrote: I typically have "modding sessions" that literally last for days, going straight from vanilla to the setup I'll play through the following months (without even so much as updating anything, I lost too many saves already).
If I could endorse the mods I download in these sessions when I have them open, I would, but by the time the countdown before the endorsements are enabled reaches zero, I can't even remember what I have downloaded anymore.

EDIT: I went to my profile to actually look at what I have endorsed and it's pretty hilarious. 90% of my endorsements have been made from the download pop-up, on the same day during my last "modding rush".

sunshinenbrick wrote: This might be very unpopular but could a ratio counter between downloads and endorsements have any help in this particular situation. Later on when a proper well thought out and unexploitative polite paying system is eventually introduced (because it more than likely will) it could be expanded to that as well as a form of quality control.

The way it works, well it gives people a kinda nudge if they are deemed to be abusing the system. A better thought out version of how Steam tried to battle the stealing mod refund situation.

Would not be surprised if this wasn't just a big data collection exercise.

MacAban wrote: @ caffeinatedNetling

Account options > Download History, if you want to correct that. You can even endorse from there.

skinnytecboy wrote: This comment started very nicely.. actually put a smile on my face. I thought to myself "Ah finally they're all playing nicely". Let me dream a little more please :)

P.s. I for one enjoy making mods and playing mods and my motives are purely personal. However, it's always nice to know that people like what you do. Its nice to feel approval even if it isn't asked for.

So spread some love and hit those endorsement buttons my fine furry friends :)

myrrdin35 wrote: With everything that has happened, the very thing you bring up has been on my mind also but in a different way. I'm a mod user, I've tried so many times to make a mod but my brain just can't wrap around that CK. I love what mod authors have brought to my gaming and many times in surprising ways. The problem is I have limited ways to give feedback to mod authors. I can hit the "Endorse" button and/or make a
post on the mod page that usually gets buried very quickly. Neither of these options is ideal for mod authors and users.

I think the Nexus needs to take some time and make the site more user friendly. Right now we have the Top 100 (useless, same mods forever), the hot files (highlights some popular new mods, but they are gone too quickly), and then files of the month (which is buried on the side of the page and not prominent). I think a couple of things can be done so more mods get some exposure and helps us the mod
users interact with you guys the makers.

One, add a review area to the mod pages. And I mean real reviews not just your mod is great or it sucks. Talk about technical stuff, if a quest mod how long did it take, if a texture pack did it look good, and so on. Also make it so we can follow reviewers. Say someone is really good and I can trust their feedback, I would love a way to follow their reviews.

Two, a mod spotlight. It can be an old mod, new one, big or small. Just something that is different, works and could be a good addition to someones game. This could definately highlight some lesser known or older mods that people never new existed.

Three, an area where mod users could upload their mod lists with notes on what kind of playthrough they are for and how well the mods work together and maybe installation notes if needed. Say I wanted a survivalist playthrough or maybe a hardcore your gonna die one or a very well put together texture overhaul. I mean how many times have you seen people say recommend me some mods, but its never that simple. This would definately give more exposure to more mod makers. Also it would give people a base to work from.

Four, Make the files of the month more prominent. There usually is a mix of different mods that people are voting for and it deserves some better screen real
estate.

There are probably many more, these are just the ones I could think of right now. I don't know if any of this is doable or not. But I do know as a mod user, it is frustrating right now trying to give proper feedback. I will say mod makers and mod users should always try to show respect for each other. I told my children when they started using the internet. Remember, the written word doesn't show your face and emotion when you are talking to someone. If you are upset or angry or frustrated, go ahead and type what you want, but don't hit the send button. Walk away for 5 minutes, cool off, think. Then come back read what you wrote and if it doesn't sound right, delete it or rewrite your point in a much calmer way. Communication is not easy to do right, so taking a little time will benefit all in the end.

stanleemojo wrote: Many of these DL's are from several countries and more than likely do not speak/read English. I've done this in the past with a Russian modding site, not able to understand a word of it, managing to obtain the mods :\

NDDragor wrote: In my opinion its laziness or just not understanding what the endorsement button means. Many people think that it wont change anything if the endorse or leave a comment but I recently uploaded my first mod and for me each endorsment or feedback which my mod gets is a signal that people are liking my mod and that I should keep up my work. Plus all feedbacks (negative and positive) are helping me to work on my mod.

I wont say that I am always leaving a comment or endorsing a file but I really try to make the authors understand that their mods are good if I enjoyed them or point out bugs and issues if there were some. I have played 34 mods until now and endorsed 26 of them. And I have to agree with others about not endorsing downloaded mods because I haven't tried them. Right now I have 45 mods on my list which I have to play.

Well... to make it short. You wont overstrain yourself by clicking on the endorsement button or writing a small comment and the author will most likely appreciate your feedback.

skinnytecboy wrote: @myrrdin35

Regarding help from the modding community, perhaps you're not looking in the right place. There are amazing forums here that are a wealth of knowledge and people willing to help unlock it's secrets. .. there's also Google ;)

I really like your review idea btw.

Primalsplit wrote: I think mannygt has the right of it here. More people should endorse mods. I admit I wasn't paying much attention with my endorsements (mainly because of the 45 minutes limit). I download a mod, test/play it and then I either be done with testing it within 10 minutes or I just play it for 1-2 hours, sometimes for 3 hours and more. I just forgot endorsing it.

I hope this will be a good lesson to all of us. We as a community should look after each other more. Personally speaking, lesson learned. I advice everyone to be more sensitive towards this subject.

MrGrymReaper wrote: @mannygt - Did you make any endorsements during the painful growth period of the Nexus by chance please?

Cause if you did or accidently clicked on the feature for the endorse/undorse during a hic-cup they may have been lost or undone accidentally. It happended to me several times in the past with my slow internet connection.

As a result I was wondering whether the admin has somewhere on the server which keeps a record of endorsements especially those which were endorsed and quickly suddenly un-endorsed.

The reason being I now there's a lot of mods to endorse and/or vote for some of which I now can't post a comment in (following the previous crisis we went through).

So if an admin could please go through the locked or hidden comment mods which I have download and endorsed to please a word of thanks. It would be much appreciated!

Dirtysocks wrote: I'm not the poster child for feedback on mods myself, I endorse the mods I use and kudos the authors I truly believe made a fantastic mod, however I do believe personally that your no. of downloads is a much more impressive way to tally your mods success, endorsements are a bonus

In any game only a fraction are active in the forums and chats as such, this does not mean for a second that the remainder do not enjoy the game, they are just less vocal about their excitement

Fowldragon wrote: how do people come to conclusions without citing the supporting evidence...

FalSkaar has over 1 million downloads according to the Author..People have commented and critiqued it and AV has made extensive revisions..but Ungrateful? You've ignored all the acclaim and the fact that Falskaar is overwhelmingly if not Universally considered ICONIC as a DLC size mod...

If I tell my kid that he needs to work on this or that, am I unloving, not proud? If His Eng teacher gives him a B- on an ESSAY should he be justified in assuming that EVERYONE hates him?

If you want to make conclusions about endorsements you might consider that POLLING people to get their opinions is a PROACTIVE method, whereas the system in place to ENDORSE mods is completely PASSIVE in its approach.

zcul wrote: Hi MannyGT,

I fully second this and your previous post. I checked the endorsement rate for some other mods - the same 5 to 10 % maximum (?????).

After installing and running a mod, it takes a minute or 2 for returning to the modder's site and just say "thanks for your work" and maybe some thoughts on it, especially if one keeps it installed, because he/she likes it. All that is a small and humble gesture in return and in comparison with the time and work a modder invested to make a mod and share it with the community to enhance and improve the game for all and - for free.
And the best, doing so as a user does hurt in any way - I tried that myself.

b6lph6gor6 wrote: I endorse every mod I like, meaning every mod that I don't uninstall immediately after testing it. If I had to estimate, I'd say I like (and endorse) about 80% of the mods I download.

Although I have to admit that I'm lazy as well. Since I can't endorse the mod immediately after trying it (I like my game to feel vanilla, so I mostly use simple, lightweight mods that don't require a long period of testing for me to determine if I like and keep using them) I often forget to endorse the files. If it weren't for the NMM, half of the mods I use would still wait for my endorsement.

Gamwich wrote: Actually, 10% is considered a very high percentage on Nexus. That's something that I've learned over my time here.

If you can crack the 10% barrier, then you've really accomplished something. ;)

meredithmiles wrote: I do creative works in another fan-based community, and the 10 percent response is a well-known ratio there as well. If you hit about 10% kudos/thanks/likes etc. of the 100% that downloaded your work, you are doing well. I've been watching the numbers for almost 15 years, and that is a solid, persistent statistic.

I've always thought it was odd, how consistent it was.

Personally, I use endorsements as an actual personal endorsement. I'm saying "I've checked this out and suggest it to others". So I try to be sure I've actually used it and it was reasonably solid. Sometimes I will give kudos as encouragement when an otherwise worthy mod I won't really use much gets panned or ignored, even if I won't use it for long myself.

One thing I want to point out to Nexus members, if I can borrow your post to do it:

There are quite a few amazingly kind and helpful people who haunt comment threads and do impromptu tech support for mods around the Nexus. Both modders and mod users owe them a debt, and I wonder about appropriate ways to express collective appreciation for them. Any ideas?

MisterGibson wrote: If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

Jack Wow wrote: Just like FavouredSoul just said:-
"Its hard enough getting people to click a button to endorse a mod, let alone get people to use a donate button to give me the 5c they would rather keep."
- Me? - 1700 endorsements so far. Best I start putting my money where my mouth is. With 3600 hours of playing Skyrim under the belt, I know how much I owe the Nexus and the modding community.

greggorypeccary wrote: A lot of people seem to want to tell other people the reasons why they should mod and what the wrong reasons are. It must be nice to know everything.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @greggorypeccary

I completely agree.

Azulyn wrote: If you want to see entitled, work a customer service job.
as someone else said, modders owe the community nothing, and the people downloading said mods owe modders nothing. If you're sick of your hobby then stop uploading your work. Easy and simple as that. Want to get paid for your work? Go into game design or get involved with a gaming company.
Better yet, just wait until the new Elder Scrolls is released. I'm sure they're going to implement a paid mod system in future installments. This was just their messy test run.
I won't bother playing future Bethesda games in that case. Sorry if that makes me sound like a cheap, entitled asshole, but I can't afford to piss away all my money just to make the base game enjoyable and bug free. Games are expensive enough as is.
There's a reason I refuse to purchase skins and other micro-transactions for the games I play. I won't even get into the compatibly/stability issues most mods bring. It's been talked about to death at this point.

arxerisdam wrote: what about we get a i dont like this mod button?

and see how popular a mod really is, that would be fair.

greggorypeccary wrote: My prediction is the end of modding as we know it. The is just no incentive any more. I think more and more modders will find outlets for their creativity and move on. The people that keep saying " if you don't like it don't do it" will get their wish. Imagine your loadorders with only official dlc's. It won't be the greed of the modders that causes this, it's the greed and apathy of the community combines with outright usery of companies that really do already profit from mods that will cause the end.

Azulyn wrote: lol melodramatic much?
people need to hush with this modding will end nonsense. Even if every single talented mod author left right now, there will always be fresh faces to fill their spot.

greggorypeccary wrote: Don't think things can't change. Change is constant. Once people don't feel appreciated they will look for it elsewhere. The more the evidence adds up that the community is largely un grateful for the work modders do the more the likelihood that they will move to something that will satisfy them in some way. Add to that the fact that others are profiting from their work but they are somehow supposed to be above all that and you are practicaly driving them away. The best you'll be able to hope for is the inexperienced modder that wants to cut his teeth. This could have been avoided if the community nurtured modders for the fruit they bore and maybe if the nexus acknowledged how well they are doing for themselves providing those mods that modders should not profit from.

dasgones wrote: I'm one of those @$$holes. I've endorsed very few mods here and have downloaded many. I honestly thought my time playing skyrim would be only a few months, but since i fell into the community i've spent more time applying mods than playing with them. i'm picky and freeloading. This whole conflict has opened my eyes, however, and i'm going to be a lot more responsible in displaying my appreciation. this goes for almost all users that know what has happened. I really am apologetic to you because i'm becoming a bit of a fan of your work. it's impressive. I think ELFX look 4 times better than RLO. Immersive Helgen is incredible and your ENB presets are pure effin' magic. I was too absorbed in pleasing my enjoyment of the game to appreciate what was actually going on to make it that way. but I recognize this now. I honestly think that the best thing to come out of the last week in our community is that we now know what we look like. While I support free mods (i'm a freeloader because i'm cheap) I realize that the work I appreciate comes at a freely offered price. I need to respect that and endorse and get more involved. This week brought a lot of people off the fence. I do believe I need to be more generous in supporting mod authors, and I'm sorry I haven't been. this is something that everyone will see a lot of in the near future.

pigtailsboy wrote: You saying the interne... I mean nexus community is ungrateful? Are you saying that peop... I mean nexus community members don't vote? Are you saying that Huma... I mean nexus members are inherently flawed?

Do you have a blanket point that could easily be applied to the larger civilization of the Human race?

Leonord wrote: I dindt even learn what endorsing means after two years of modding skyrim. Others just forget or are too lazy to do it. Thats the reason why.

Spencerbilodeau wrote: zzjay... I REALLY dig your mods. I would endorse them all day long.

Dreadpap wrote: There are plenty of mods I've downloaded multiple times, but can only endorse once.
Also just because i download a mod, it doesn't mean I'll like it, most of them I uninstall.
Your whole reasoning is based on the false belief that if you download something it means you are going to use it and just steal it for yourself.
The mods I use and enjoy I endorse and most people do the same. But that's a lot smaller group than all the downloaded mods.

Honestly your use of data in this post is so wrong and bleeds form so many wounds there is no point in countering what you were actually trying to say, but if you really want to know what the community is like check the forums. I usually post something there about the mods I download. Usually something nice.

phantompally76 wrote: Manny,

You have received more endorsements in the past month than most mod authors have received in 4 years. Why are you complaining about endorsements?

I endorse quality mods that I personally enjoy. That's as far as the social contract goes.

I'm no more obligated to endorse every mod I download than I am to pay money for them. There are simply too many mod authors with rotten attitudes, too many poor-quality mods, too many offensive/sexist/racist mods out there that shouldn't even be allowed to be hosted on this site for me to adapt a mentality that now everyone deserves endorsements just because they can't get paid.

I don't like Gray Cowl of Nocturne. I tested it, and I didn't like it. It doesn't add anything to my personal gameplay experience. I'm not about to tell people that DO like it that they're wrong, because different strokes for different folks. But I won't be putting it in my load order. Ergo, vis a vis, condordantly.....I'm not going to endorse it.

Conversely, I absolutely adore Silverfish Grotto. It's one of my very favorite player homes, and it's on my Top Five list of player homes extant. It's one of the most immersive houses to have been created for the game, and it's perfect for my tastes and sensibilities. Hence.....I have LONG since endorsed it, and would endorse it AGAIN if I could.

The point here is that just because I don't endorse a mod doesn't mean I don't appreciate the mod author. It doesn't mean I'm a jerk. It doesn't mean anything other than I didn't like that particular mod. Don't take it so personally.

Endorsements are on a mod-by-mod basis. In plain English, when a user clicks the ENDORSE button, they are endorsing the mod, not the mod author. You can argue the semantics of the dictionary definition of "endorsement" all you want to, but if you want the setup to change, then you need to request Dark0ne to put the ENDORSE button on the author's profile page rather than on individual mods....where it will be even LESS visible and LESS likely to be clicked.

I don't know where you or anyone else get off thinking it's my obligation to endorse every mod I download. I realize we live in a time where everyone is a unique snowflake, and everyone gets a participation trophy, and everyone can easily audition for American Idol and be humiliated and crushed and realize we might not be as special as the enablers surrounding us led us to believe. But I'm not about to compromise my own ethics, morality, ideals and beliefs just to make your or anyone else feel better about themselves.

Endorsements are a privilege, not a right.

Poyuma wrote: Gotta be honest, I didn't even know what endorsments meant/did. I am absoultely grateful that these mods are free and well put together so I guess I will endorse all the mods I have downloaded :)

greggorypeccary wrote: pigtailsboy

Acknowledging the fault as status quo is not a solution.

As far as endorsements go, well they are a kind of thumbs up to other users looking for a mod. They are not a thank you to the modder they are not some kind of psuedo payment. All it does is say "I think other people will like this. They do nothing for the modder at all, in fact you are not even engaging the modder by endorsing the mod.

animalwtcm wrote: I've got got at least 20 hrs in reading comments her in the past 3 days, & wow what a soap?? But i still can't stop thinkin what modders like manny will do with witcher 3 ?? Ya i now, off the wall....... just to much><><><>? Happy moddin.....

TSotP wrote: i have a simple rule for endorsements.

Did the Mod do what it said it was going to do? if Yes, Endorsed!

Musicdude132 wrote: This is where modders are showing off a nasty side.

Saying people are ungrateful for not clicking a button that many don't even know exists in the first place? Please.....

You can't be serious.

Demonica wrote: @ mannygt:

A fair point, but I think you could have used a better word than "ungrateful". Feel free to look at my profile

1,274 Endorsements

Regards

diyeath wrote: @ ramccoid or perhaps it means that the internet was in flames and galvanized the community into action.

endorsements mean exposure and popularity, downloads is generally a better indicator of how good your mod is, as are the comments people leave behind.

This is simply a math equation with variables. If you screw up a variable of course you get a skewed answer such as Manny's "the community is ungrateful".

This crap is getting stupid. Why are we fighting over things that were never an issue? Because some mod authors and some mod users were silly and did bad things? Grow up people, lol.

Lets move past this tragic event guys, enough is enough.

svanderwerf wrote: and in some areas, only 25% of eligible electorate bother to vote.

Opt-in participation will always lead to low returns, simply because people in general won't do a thing they don't have to, even if doing it is virtually effortless. It's not so much that people are ungrateful, but that there is no advantage in going back after the wait period and hitting the button.

What would be really nice, is if a mod manager could dial home with how much playtime a mod has had. Rather than the page saying that 5% of people have bothered to click a button, how nice would it be to see 10,000 downloads, 500,000 active hours.

TheFlamingRed wrote: Looking purely at statisitcs is very misleading. Know that Youtubers can have thousands of subscribers, and some of their videos only have a few hundred views. Videos with millions of views may only have a few thousand people click the Like or Don't like button (1-10% is quite normal), and even less people will subscribe to a person, despite probably watching almost every single of their videos. Its a fact that most of a fanbase is actually completely silent.

I am subscribed to Linsey Stirling, a violinist who dances a bit - I have never clicked like on her video, never once commented. To her, I am silent, not contributing. However, in her case, I bought both her albums through amazon - I have told lots of my friends about her who may one day buy her album and been to her gigs on two occassions. When I was teaching, there was one video I would show a class as I thought it had a good message within the video, and from that, one student (who was one of the students who was interested in dance anyway) inquired directly about her. This girl maybe completely inspired by her and her life changed because of this video (unlikely but... small events in childhood can effect out lives).

The point is, the silent downloaders, who are probably the majority of any fanbase, mods in this case, appreciate what you do. We may not endorce or say thank you or comment or anything like that - and maybe some may deem us as ungrateful or unworthy to have these mods, byt know that most of us who remain silent appreciate the work you do, will spread it, and get enjoyment from it. When people release things for free on the interent, be it a mod or a youtube video, I hope that knowledge alone gives the mod makers, the youtubers, some satisfaction by putting your mod out there.

kusman wrote: Sometime i miss the endorsment button because of 15 mnt delay from nexus before you can endorse a mod(and another 15mnt if you clicked earlier). This tend to make people forgot to endorse the mod author.
But i do think many ungrateful person is exist on the nexus, bad mouthing authors on their mod page because their mod is not lore friendly or the mod are simply doesn't follow their taste. And worst, using endorsement as threat againts the mod author.

Admittedly... I tend to forget to leave likes and endorsements on almost any site I use frequently. Sorry...!

[Silvist]

Its quite late in the realm of modding to randomly toss up a pay wall without really paying attention to the entire community of modding. Especially after the previous TES games, where Bethesda threatened to sue several individuals...

 

Such as the creator of Unholy Darkness, who was only selling "part" of his mod. (voice package).

 

Now after all these threats of lawsuits, they turn around and say "Hey you can now sell mods!".

 

I realize the incentive was capital, but the way they went about it was probably one of the biggest "dropping the ball" I've seen in quite some time.

 

Probably the most hilarious part about all of this, is the fact that "free mods" is one of the largest selling points of Bethesda's games. Taking "free" anything away from any person used to having something for nothing...will cause them to flip out regardless lol.

 

Being a modder myself, I don't create mods for money. I typically create them for myself, and if I think other people would perhaps like them; I share them. Even if I sold one of my mods for 99 cents; it would probably take all the fun out of mod making.

 

Cause at that point, I mine as well make it a part time job. Making mods is not like making 3d products for rendering like Daz and poser. It has a long history behind it, and I'd expect Bethesda being one of the most well known creators of such games to be fully aware of it.

 

Like everyone has said before; this battle is over. But prepare to see this come in a different package; perhaps at the release of their next game. I wouldn't even be surprised if another company took the same idea and ran with it.

 

[Dragonfire12]

In response to post #24774814. #24776789, #24777459, #24811584, #24811694, #24811904, #24811959, #24813484, #24818104, #24818664, #24818959 are all replies on the same post.

chidosity wrote: My disgust with Valve and Bethesda has been replaced with a broken heart after reading the responses from prominent modders such as FavoredSoul.

I have been modding video games since Quake. I have modded over 100 games. My Skyrim Mods are minor, but still took some time to create.

Never in a million years would I think of charging for these mods, or any mod. I have been a part of total conversion projects that all told accounted for thousands of man-hours of development time.

Some of you are calling end-users entitled brats for wanting something for nothing. I am calling all of you mod authors that wish to be financially compensated for your work entitled brats. When you started your project, large or small, you never envisioned being paid for you work. No matter what your motivation was, money was never one of them.

Once that possibility became a reality, suddenly you're entitled to compensation? Horseshit.

You are a disease on this community. Myself, and thousands of others, have been happily donating our time to provide content for the games we love for over 20 years, needing nothing but a "thanks" once in a while. This community has survived on the fuel of good will for it's entire life-span, and will continue to survive in the face of your misguided sense of entitlement and greed.

Our community is so much better without modders that require financial compensation for their time and talent. When you go, a thousand young bright minds will replace you. Modding is a stepping stone to games development if you choose. If you choose not to go the route of professional games developer, then you do not need to be financially compensated. We mod because it brings us joy. You soil us all with your delusions of grandeur.

Brasscatcher wrote: And if they don't like it, they can hit the bricks. Right on, chido!

FavoredSoul wrote: You totally missed the point of my post.

95% of my discontent had to do with the simple fact that this "issue" has brought to the surface, such a disgusting amount of hate that I never knew existed, or was even possible. And why?

Did I even have any mods for sale? No. Only about 15 people were even part of the program, let me repeat that, *FIFTEEN*, so for people like you to say that people like me are greedy and entitled, when we DIDN'T EVEN DO ANYTHING, that's the truly heart breaking part.

I was merely upset and disappointed over the fact that, for the briefest moment, the POSSIBILITY of some kind of return system existed, and it was so vilified, and so hated, that you guys decided to make, in large part, the mod-authors the target of that hate, and not bethesda and valve who were the ones that CREATED IT.

So again, when people like you say to people like me, "good riddance we don't need you", it just proves how disposable you think we are. You're happy to use our mods when we're offering, and just as readily are willing to throw us away without a second thought. You take us for granted, and that makes you nothing else but a selfish individual. And you say that I am the one with the disease?

I would say that anybody who posts comments like that, filled with hate, is the one with the disease. I haven't done anything. I didn't pull my mods from the Nexus. I didn't put any mods behind a paywall. Where did all this hate come from?

Musicdude132 wrote: "Some of you are calling end-users entitled brats for wanting something for nothing. I am calling all of you mod authors that wish to be financially compensated for your work entitled brats. When you started your project, large or small, you never envisioned being paid for you work. No matter what your motivation was, money was never one of them.

Once that possibility became a reality, suddenly you're entitled to compensation? Horseshit."

Well said.

I haven't been following this debacle, but I have seen some modders attacking users for "taking away their dream of making money off of mods" and in response will no longer be uploading free mods any more. How childish.

WightMage wrote: Personally, I think modders should be compensated at some point, but I agree that the end goal of modding should not be financial, for reasons stated over the past three news threads.

WightMage wrote: FavoredSoul, I get that the modders who joined the initial program (and were subsequently burned, both by users and Valve/Bethesda) were for the most part wrongly attacked, but I'm honestly confused as to how you can believe that mod-authors were vilified alone.

I've been watching these comments threads for six days too long, and from what I've seen, the hatred has passed from Valve/Bethesda, to SPECIFIC mod authors, back to Valve, back to Bethesda, stayed with Bethesda, back to Valve, and now that the system is dead, focused on mod users, many of whom were in fact DEFENDING the right of mod authors to get paid if they so wished. When people started attacking *you*, it was because you posted a reply that attacked mod users, who in turn thought that *you* were being entitled.

Do you see the problem here? This isn't helping anything. Anytime anyone creates a large post written entirely in the spirit of passion infused hatred, it just brews more hatred and we hear each other even less and less and yell more and more in response to being heard less.

It's only getting worse, and everyone involved with this riot mongering is culpable, even the OP of this thread. But from what I gather, he and several others like him only posted this because he felt he was being attacked, just as you did originally.

TL;DR, we all seriously need to get a drink together and talk about s#*&#33; without throwing glasses at each other's face.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think the end goal if there is one for me is maybe getting a JOB out of it, not money. Not necessarily as a game designer but I find that what is my hobby actually allows me to learn a lot of skills.

A job (which modding can feel like sometimes) is about more than money, it is about realising your potential as a human being. What was offered was a job contract, and a lousy illegal one at that which had next to no protection for anyone except themselves and a few others.

Now I like to believe that there are some great people at both Beth and Val but with things the way they are in the world they are sometimes thrown into situations and make very bad decisions in the process. The problem with big business. This does not excuse what they did but it should not mean that there cannot be an open dialogue with them so as we can express our fears and concerns so that (as this is probably inevitable) we can find a compromise that we agree on. Authors and users alike. I think we must also argue that ending free modding altogether will be their undoing eventually.

Sorry I do not know you either and I have just mouthed off my opinions on your post but I just feel there are some deep issues here we need to get to grips with.

That's my 2 cents... or what ever the hell people are saying nowadays ;D

svanderwerf wrote: this is pretty much my entire problem with Valve's handing of this clusterfeic

They took an existing and very healthy community and did the one thing absolutely guaranteed to cause an ideological war. The level of mismanagement is staggering, and I'll be amazed if whoever was responsible for this debacle still has a job.

Wolvenlight wrote: Chido, I have to take FavoredSouls side here. Regardless of whether or not paid modding was a good idea overall, (and I personally think it wasn't,) the consumer portion of the Nexus was far more filled with extreme vitriol and hatred towards the paid authors, people who have given so much for free already. Very few mod authors who tried the paid workshop actually cared enough about being compensated to the point they wouldn't have modded in the first place. When presented with the option, they tried it. It did okay for some but ultimately failed. Many of them accepted that gracefully. Heck, it was always a possibility, quite a few games allow mods to be sold. Bethesda could always make that choice, and you know this is true, because they just did. However brief it was. And if your motivation is experience and a portfolio, then money is your motivation, simple as that.

When people like you attack them, calling them entitled brats, a disease, tell them how they should think, why they should do modding, (or anything,) as if you own the very concept... coming off to others as if you think you're so much better than them because you do it for free? (Not to be confused with "for nothing.") You prove everything the paid authors say against you and the people who first started this "war." Especially because you attacked first. I don't care how many mods you've made. I've never made one in my life and I'm on the paid authors side here. You think they're delusional? We don't need your mods either. We don't need you. Bethesda doesn't need you. There will always be other people. Your opinion isn't automatically better because you've made mods for free, or at all.

Also, no, nobody is going to replace them when they leave. People will come and go as they always have, but only you and your kind have chased good people away by being so dead set against not the system for it's flaws, but the innocent people who did nothing but fall outside your banner. We have lost their mods, their ideas, their concepts and assets because of the horrible things said by people like you. I like free mods, but I like fair, kind people a lot more. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a smaller more expensive modding community than a hate filled one. (Neither exist, but hey.)

Enough is enough. It's fine if you think it's a bad idea. Discuss it's flaws, rail against Bethesda, be logical, convince people. Don't hurt innocent people, and don't let jerks goad you.


Also, please learn how to use the word "entitled" correctly. I haven't seen anyone use it right once this entire fiasco.

Xazomn wrote: I would never pay for mods. Games and dlc's are expensive enough , let us not talk about cut to pieces micro dlc's for just a weapon or outfit. Why should i pay for mods that fix bugs that had to be solved by the game creator in the first place .
Most mods are made for themselfs they like to share, for the fun, for learning experience, realy,i wont pay for that.
Mods making my game intresting, sure , mods make the gameplay very intresting and makes me play longer with my games just like Skyrim . That game is 4 years now, other games even older. New games don't stay new. Why should i pay for mods that keep my old game intresting. If i need to pay 200 dollars for mods to keep a 4 year old game fun to play or even keep using mods that i already used and sudden need to pay for, well simple as that, i would buy a new game and put the rest into my pc and nothing into a old game and the mods.

As modder, for me it is the fun i got with the community, the learning experiences i get , i can show my thoughts,feelings ideas . I share my mods as others share them. To see my mods used in stories,comics or screens or companion mods means more to me then money.

MetalGearModder1155 wrote: You'll never know what you have until you don't have it anymore.

It's mainly to make a point about how, when an opportunity to make money vanished, people will complain, crash, and burn about how unfair it was that it was taken away... even if they were totally fine with pay-less modding, just to put on their resumé.

The same thing with the people who USE the mods... they have free mods from absurdly kind people in the community, but they don't even donate. What [else] happens (aside from the concern of crappy, low-quality content that might not even work) when that gets taken away? An uprising, and people LEARN what they had, as it's been taken away.

Personally, I'm too warm-hearted plenty of the time, so I end up feeling so bad when some good modder, such as FavoredSoul, gets up and leaves because no-one was appreciating them for their hard work. (AGAIN, Steam. Donate button, custom message from author. That'd fix so much.)

Yet, people don't seem to get that it was their fault for not actually giving credit to good modders for their work. Instead, when the modder even THINKS of taking advantage of the new system, they get bashed and beaten for wanting to feel accomplished for their work, thanks to worthless stacks of green paper.

May sound trite: but give damn credit where it's deserved. I mean, come on, SKSE and SkyUI both are very well-done. The SkyUI is eye-pleasing, fancy, and it's not terribly clunky either. SKSE... it allows you to create mods, basically.

Also, alter account was lost. Don't mind the post history.

Bethesda and Valve just killed the Goose that lays the Golden Egg. Modding has kept Skyrim and Oblivion, even Morowind, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, alive longer than they would have been otherwise. This means more sales of the games and DLC's. In that respect Bethesda has made money on modding.

I can understand Bethesda's motivations. It was Greed, they wanted to pocket some extra cash, from mod authors, plain and simple.

Funny thing about killing the Goose that Lays the Golden Egg. There is never any profit in it. Bethesda and Valve will never be able to undo what they have done. They have torn the modding community apart and set them against each other. Not only that, the rift will not have healed when Bethesda rolls out Fallout 4.

This has cost those fools money. The Goose is dead...

[Socratatus]

I don`t understand how bethesda can say they hate DRM, yet they force everyone to use Steam to play their games. Sure, they let Oblivion go un-Steamed, but after that everything was Steamed, which is DRM. Why , if they so don`t like DRM, didn`t they make a non-Steam and Steam versions? would`ve loved that.

They`re not making sense and I don`t trust it.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Socratatus