Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Spencerbilodeau]

Yup! Paid mods are gone! Free for play folks win! Woo hoo!!

Now.. can we please stop with the 'Forever free' banners on every new mod upload? It is not like this is the Occupy Movement or people fighting for gay rights (both great causes in my opinion) It was a resistance to a new policy by a game maker and vendor. This is not echoing down the channels of history. If you like how it feels to successfully protest and resist something you do not like, go turn that energy towards a cause that REALLY matters.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24838714. #24841759, #24842129, #24844344, #24844739, #24845434, #24845714, #24847419, #24848004, #24848174, #24848329, #24849004, #24850284, #24851314, #24852044 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

Just so everyone knows when I said this to xbi

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works. Just thought the reasoning in her rationale had brought her to the wrong conclusion.

 

I wasn't talking about any 5$ Horse armor type argument , just that when lawyers are brought in to absolve their clients of any responsibility and leave it solely on the other party , thats when the other party should be going spidey sense up , danger danger . And in a system where one of those parties can do updates that can affect your product (mod) and you have no control over that . Its because of those lawyers that your left in a very bad situation . And thats how the world works.

 

Even though I was against this idea (many reasons I haven't even mentioned) I have also thought people who were for it have some good points , including xbi . but to be honest I think there is something much bigger going on here , much bigger , but I haven't just put it all together yet .

retnav98 wrote: Many of us smell that same rat..

But I have to give it to Foster, who is still here discussing and explaining her position...while conceding some side issues, her main point as I understand it is simply that WE don't have the right to tell her or FavoredSoul or the SKYUI team or any MODDER that they can't make money from their mods.

Getting sued, fair market compensation..that's still NOT our call.

Opinions over Greed, good faith...that's just people trying to cling to a system that had NO options for modders.

And if you're a modder who would never consider charging, then that's your values and your position...It doesn't make it wrong to believe differently.

It's Their decision.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I agree but feel I must add that Bethesda must also give all of US the option to mod for free, or for money. And the option to buy UGC or not, without detracting from the original sales pitch and intent of the game. If it says beans in a can, I do not want rotten fish in a bag.

If you can avoid interest and debt then you are bang equal and that is the key to the free world. Sorry if that is too fleeting or opinionated, but I'm back from the pub :P

retnav98 wrote: Oh my...I long for the days when my Heart and Physique could endure a night of Black and Tans..That unsatiated yearning is caused not by the good beer but the pack and a half of Marlboros each day for 35 years... When you get older interest on debt doesn't keep your hands shaking as much as prescription costs...then again..that's probably less an issue on your side of the pond.

It would be nice, but I honestly don't believe that Valve or Bethesda will ever say they are in support of modders, or providing a polished and reasonably priced game for their faithful users....THEN, actually showing that they are sincere.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Ha! Good point, maybe I do speak from a perspective of advantage. But just remember when the s#*! really hits the fan we will ALL be be in the middle of that pond... drowning.

Nihilistic perhaps, but it allows me to get SOME sleep at night :D

Someone nudged me this, I take no credit:

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I think members of the community DO have a right to express their displeasure to mod authors who want to sell their mods. There area many reasons for that (such as all the shared/borrowed/piggy-backed resources they are using, or are relying upon as a backbone in many people's games for their own mods to work), but one good one is this:

"If so-and-so sells their mods on Steam, why should I release MY mods for free?"

It's called the Tragedy of the Commons phenomenon, and it is what killed the Sims modding community when they went to a pay-for system. People who don't want to see the same thing happen with Skyrim are expressing their displeasure, and yes, as paying customers of the original game, they DO have a right to tell Bethesda they don't want a paid-for mod paradigm on Steam. I know mod authors feel they are entitled to do whatever they want with derivative material, but that just isn't the case. When they create their own utilities from the ground up (like ENB, SKSE, FORE etc.), then yes, they can try and sell it all day long and twice on Sundays.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We must remember that we are all responsible for our childrens' futures. Why has the world become the way it has?

retnav98 wrote: Vesuvius,

I didn't say we don't have a right to tell her we are not happy with what that decision means to us, or to attempt to discourage her...I think we have to listen to each other...and I think Foster has done that and then some... In fact, Foster has done far more Listening than the people who proclaimed a " VICTORY for US."

Consider that those who lobby'd against Pay Mods (myself included) didn't spend a whole lot of time before we took our stand; granted, we didn't have a lot of time. Then before people like Foster and Favored' and Nightasy ...etc...etc...etc could clear their throats to reply...VALVE cancelled the whole episode.

You and others may be convinced you're in the right and were all along...I no longer am...

I used Nexus for a couple years without ever engaging the community...I primarily downloaded from Modders Resources, and after seeing all the best modders leaving STEAM, I eventually ONLY downloaded content through NEXUS. Because so much of what I was taking from the community was given to support new Modders, I rarely failed to endorse them..but still, I never paid a donation...

I have a Great appreciation for modders and the effort to make mods...and all the more for the effort involved in dealing with users...But because I never really engaged authors directly, I never guessed that money would be so divisive...Other communities may have proven that when Money was introduced, the community disolved, but that could only have been true if there was also a segment that would rather see the community die than to allow it. And others who would rather quit modding than give of themselves to people who would not listen to them.

Xavathos wrote: @ retnav98

It's all about entitlement. Mod users think they are entitled to free mods, and modders think they are entitled to compensation for their work.

Both are wrong, unfortunately. Users, especially those that don't even bother endorsing the mods they so frequently download, should be ashamed to think they are entitled to any of it. But modders who think they deserve as much as game developers working for a studio are also living in a dream world.

I firmly believe in the donation system. I believe it is the most fair for both sides involved. If only that would legalized completely somehow, instead of the rather risky legal gray area it's in right now.

Lastly I want to say modders absolutely deserve far more than they are getting and have been getting from users for the last few years (myself included). And when I say that I don't mean forking out great whopping loads of dosh in the general direction of modders, no, when I say that I am talking about gratitude, about endorsements (the very least you can do), about constructive criticism, about tips, ideas, suggestions, or least of all a simple thank you.

I hate pointing fingers, and find it counter productive, but if you feel, like me, that you belong in this group of people, then consider changing your attitude. It would be for the best of all of us in the long run.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I keep seeing the claim, "people feel entitled to free mods!" and it used as some sort of rallying cry. No, that's not what this is about. About two minutes after the first pay-for mod was on Steam, it was on various Torrent sites. The people who DO feel entitled to free mods aren't here complaining. Why? Because they don't care. It's nothing to them if there is a pay-for system or not because they know they will get those mods regardless--and it's probably easier for them if they are on Torrent sites because there is no DL speed limit.

The fact is many mod authors didn't want this system. Surely you don't think THEY feel entitled to free mods? Think about the reasoning people have been giving, and please stop parroting this "people just want free mods!" nonsense.

Xavathos wrote: @ Vesuvius1745

I'm not sure if your post was in reply to mine, but if it was, you should read my entire post again, as you clearly don't understand what I said. Please don't reply to something you haven't taken the time to read first...

If it wasn't in reply to my post, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

retnav98 wrote: xavathos,

don't know if you've listened to this interview . its nearly 2 hrs long. Sunshinebrick "Nudged" me with it..before she poured herself to bed.

it was very informative for me. bottom line I think that You're right, both sides are at fault.

I believe though, that a person's attitude and a person's rights are not synonymous. You may believe you're entitled to something and be completely deluding yourself. You may also give an attitude of entitlement because YOU ARE entitled..Foster WAS entitled to submit her mods for pay.

But at the moment that Valve established the policy, as Cynical Brit interview exposes, that submission process never really got started...One could say that the Boycott Worked...but as was also revealed...Valve knew there would be a Loud, contentious and immediate response. So the question is, what triggered the cessation if on the same day it was pulled Bethesda stated (as Gaben had the day before) that the Model would continue.?

Could it be that this whole thing was a subterfuge? concocted solely to create disharmony within the community...was it triggered so suddenly because just days before , Dark0ne had blogged that Nexus would Forever be a Free modding site? Could Gaben have been attempting to regain the allegiance of Veteran/Elite Modders ?

It is possible too that this really was an absolute failure in judgement by a guy who turned STEAM into what Dark0ne called the Walmart of gaming. It is possible that this was a test run for future game releases... It is clear though that the usually keen-witted and "Scholarly" GABEN decision making, was Epicly WRONG on Pay Mods for Skyrim. and if he'd simply asked others who had as much or more understanding of the community, he may at least have taken a more gradual approach.

Your last paragraph has me a bit puzzled, I have a difficult time reading between the lines, but it seemed as if you were saying that my attitude should include donating money more frequently endorsing more and being generally more supportive of modders. I frankly find the admonition to change my attitude to fit in with the community not simply fingerpointing, but elitist and bordering on illegal. ...I will modulate my "Attitude"according to My values...not as a result of some late-night impudent half-threat.

Xavathos wrote: @ retnav98

Thank you. :) I had not seen TB had put up a new interview yet, I wrote my post before I checked my daily youtube routine. But I have now fully listened through everything TB, Robin and Nick had to say about the situation.

About my last paragraph though, I believe you misunderstand my intention. I'm the kind of person that does not like conflict an awful lot, and while I know conflict is inevitable and necessary sometimes, I do believe that things often get out of hand..? Basically, if my words could calm 3 people down a little in their passionate debates and perhaps open a few eyes to more than just their own perspective, that would be for the good of us all.

I meant it kind of in the way Robin made his closing argument in where he has to walk in the shoes of ALL parties involved. If only more of us could do that and try to understand one another, rather than blatantly pointing fingers and saying "he's the bad guy", it would help us get anywhere that is not this endless maelstrom of negativity. I'm not being elitist in saying you should CHANGE your opinion, I'm asking you to consider others perspective, views and values. (by you, I mean anyone reading it, not you specifically retnav98, just to clarify :))

retnav98 wrote: AMAZING....I don't expect you to read all my posts, but if you did you would read a man who has adjusted his thinking, and as a result of taking in the viewpoints of others is taking a hard look at himself... Maybe just like your post to Vesuvius, you're really confused about what you're saying and who you're saying it to...I really don't care to know what your motives or failed logics are..

I was too old to be playing kids games 40 years ago. Its time I left.

Xavathos wrote: @ retnav98

Excuse me, but I am guilty of nothing more than speaking my mind, whether that conforms with your thoughts and logic or not, does not give you right to repeatedly and childishly insult me. Someone of your self-proclaimed age should know better.

"Now now, let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."

- The Holy Grail - Edited May 1, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

[Xavathos]

In response to post #24838714. #24841759, #24842129, #24844344, #24844739, #24845434, #24845714, #24847419, #24848004, #24848174, #24848329, #24849004, #24850284, #24851314, #24852044, #24857614 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

Just so everyone knows when I said this to xbi

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works. Just thought the reasoning in her rationale had brought her to the wrong conclusion.

 

I wasn't talking about any 5$ Horse armor type argument , just that when lawyers are brought in to absolve their clients of any responsibility and leave it solely on the other party , thats when the other party should be going spidey sense up , danger danger . And in a system where one of those parties can do updates that can affect your product (mod) and you have no control over that . Its because of those lawyers that your left in a very bad situation . And thats how the world works.

 

Even though I was against this idea (many reasons I haven't even mentioned) I have also thought people who were for it have some good points , including xbi . but to be honest I think there is something much bigger going on here , much bigger , but I haven't just put it all together yet .

retnav98 wrote: Many of us smell that same rat..

But I have to give it to Foster, who is still here discussing and explaining her position...while conceding some side issues, her main point as I understand it is simply that WE don't have the right to tell her or FavoredSoul or the SKYUI team or any MODDER that they can't make money from their mods.

Getting sued, fair market compensation..that's still NOT our call.

Opinions over Greed, good faith...that's just people trying to cling to a system that had NO options for modders.

And if you're a modder who would never consider charging, then that's your values and your position...It doesn't make it wrong to believe differently.

It's Their decision.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I agree but feel I must add that Bethesda must also give all of US the option to mod for free, or for money. And the option to buy UGC or not, without detracting from the original sales pitch and intent of the game. If it says beans in a can, I do not want rotten fish in a bag.

If you can avoid interest and debt then you are bang equal and that is the key to the free world. Sorry if that is too fleeting or opinionated, but I'm back from the pub :P

retnav98 wrote: Oh my...I long for the days when my Heart and Physique could endure a night of Black and Tans..That unsatiated yearning is caused not by the good beer but the pack and a half of Marlboros each day for 35 years... When you get older interest on debt doesn't keep your hands shaking as much as prescription costs...then again..that's probably less an issue on your side of the pond.

It would be nice, but I honestly don't believe that Valve or Bethesda will ever say they are in support of modders, or providing a polished and reasonably priced game for their faithful users....THEN, actually showing that they are sincere.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Ha! Good point, maybe I do speak from a perspective of advantage. But just remember when the s#*! really hits the fan we will ALL be be in the middle of that pond... drowning.

Nihilistic perhaps, but it allows me to get SOME sleep at night :D

Someone nudged me this, I take no credit:

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I think members of the community DO have a right to express their displeasure to mod authors who want to sell their mods. There area many reasons for that (such as all the shared/borrowed/piggy-backed resources they are using, or are relying upon as a backbone in many people's games for their own mods to work), but one good one is this:

"If so-and-so sells their mods on Steam, why should I release MY mods for free?"

It's called the Tragedy of the Commons phenomenon, and it is what killed the Sims modding community when they went to a pay-for system. People who don't want to see the same thing happen with Skyrim are expressing their displeasure, and yes, as paying customers of the original game, they DO have a right to tell Bethesda they don't want a paid-for mod paradigm on Steam. I know mod authors feel they are entitled to do whatever they want with derivative material, but that just isn't the case. When they create their own utilities from the ground up (like ENB, SKSE, FORE etc.), then yes, they can try and sell it all day long and twice on Sundays.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We must remember that we are all responsible for our childrens' futures. Why has the world become the way it has?

retnav98 wrote: Vesuvius,

I didn't say we don't have a right to tell her we are not happy with what that decision means to us, or to attempt to discourage her...I think we have to listen to each other...and I think Foster has done that and then some... In fact, Foster has done far more Listening than the people who proclaimed a " VICTORY for US."

Consider that those who lobby'd against Pay Mods (myself included) didn't spend a whole lot of time before we took our stand; granted, we didn't have a lot of time. Then before people like Foster and Favored' and Nightasy ...etc...etc...etc could clear their throats to reply...VALVE cancelled the whole episode.

You and others may be convinced you're in the right and were all along...I no longer am...

I used Nexus for a couple years without ever engaging the community...I primarily downloaded from Modders Resources, and after seeing all the best modders leaving STEAM, I eventually ONLY downloaded content through NEXUS. Because so much of what I was taking from the community was given to support new Modders, I rarely failed to endorse them..but still, I never paid a donation...

I have a Great appreciation for modders and the effort to make mods...and all the more for the effort involved in dealing with users...But because I never really engaged authors directly, I never guessed that money would be so divisive...Other communities may have proven that when Money was introduced, the community disolved, but that could only have been true if there was also a segment that would rather see the community die than to allow it. And others who would rather quit modding than give of themselves to people who would not listen to them.

Xavathos wrote: @ retnav98

It's all about entitlement. Mod users think they are entitled to free mods, and modders think they are entitled to compensation for their work.

Both are wrong, unfortunately. Users, especially those that don't even bother endorsing the mods they so frequently download, should be ashamed to think they are entitled to any of it. But modders who think they deserve as much as game developers working for a studio are also living in a dream world.

I firmly believe in the donation system. I believe it is the most fair for both sides involved. If only that would legalized completely somehow, instead of the rather risky legal gray area it's in right now.

Lastly I want to say modders absolutely deserve far more than they are getting and have been getting from users for the last few years (myself included). And when I say that I don't mean forking out great whopping loads of dosh in the general direction of modders, no, when I say that I am talking about gratitude, about endorsements (the very least you can do), about constructive criticism, about tips, ideas, suggestions, or least of all a simple thank you.

I hate pointing fingers, and find it counter productive, but if you feel, like me, that you belong in this group of people, then consider changing your attitude. It would be for the best of all of us in the long run.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I keep seeing the claim, "people feel entitled to free mods!" and it used as some sort of rallying cry. No, that's not what this is about. About two minutes after the first pay-for mod was on Steam, it was on various Torrent sites. The people who DO feel entitled to free mods aren't here complaining. Why? Because they don't care. It's nothing to them if there is a pay-for system or not because they know they will get those mods regardless--and it's probably easier for them if they are on Torrent sites because there is no DL speed limit.

The fact is many mod authors didn't want this system. Surely you don't think THEY feel entitled to free mods? Think about the reasoning people have been giving, and please stop parroting this "people just want free mods!" nonsense.

Xavathos wrote: @ Vesuvius1745

I'm not sure if your post was in reply to mine, but if it was, you should read my entire post again, as you clearly don't understand what I said. Please don't reply to something you haven't taken the time to read first...

If it wasn't in reply to my post, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

retnav98 wrote: xavathos,

don't know if you've listened to this interview . its nearly 2 hrs long. Sunshinebrick "Nudged" me with it..before she poured herself to bed.

it was very informative for me. bottom line I think that You're right, both sides are at fault.

I believe though, that a person's attitude and a person's rights are not synonymous. You may believe you're entitled to something and be completely deluding yourself. You may also give an attitude of entitlement because YOU ARE entitled..Foster WAS entitled to submit her mods for pay.

But at the moment that Valve established the policy, as Cynical Brit interview exposes, that submission process never really got started...One could say that the Boycott Worked...but as was also revealed...Valve knew there would be a Loud, contentious and immediate response. So the question is, what triggered the cessation if on the same day it was pulled Bethesda stated (as Gaben had the day before) that the Model would continue.?

Could it be that this whole thing was a subterfuge? concocted solely to create disharmony within the community...was it triggered so suddenly because just days before , Dark0ne had blogged that Nexus would Forever be a Free modding site? Could Gaben have been attempting to regain the allegiance of Veteran/Elite Modders ?

It is possible too that this really was an absolute failure in judgement by a guy who turned STEAM into what Dark0ne called the Walmart of gaming. It is possible that this was a test run for future game releases... It is clear though that the usually keen-witted and "Scholarly" GABEN decision making, was Epicly WRONG on Pay Mods for Skyrim. and if he'd simply asked others who had as much or more understanding of the community, he may at least have taken a more gradual approach.

Your last paragraph has me a bit puzzled, I have a difficult time reading between the lines, but it seemed as if you were saying that my attitude should include donating money more frequently endorsing more and being generally more supportive of modders. I frankly find the admonition to change my attitude to fit in with the community not simply fingerpointing, but elitist and bordering on illegal. ...I will modulate my "Attitude"according to My values...not as a result of some late-night impudent half-threat.

Xavathos wrote: @ retnav98

Thank you. :) I had not seen TB had put up a new interview yet, I wrote my post before I checked my daily youtube routine. But I have now fully listened through everything TB, Robin and Nick had to say about the situation.

About my last paragraph though, I believe you misunderstand my intention. I'm the kind of person that does not like conflict an awful lot, and while I know conflict is inevitable and necessary sometimes, I do believe that things often get out of hand..? Basically, if my words could calm 3 people down a little in their passionate debates and perhaps open a few eyes to more than just their own perspective, that would be for the good of us all.

I meant it kind of in the way Robin made his closing argument in where he has to walk in the shoes of ALL parties involved. If only more of us could do that and try to understand one another, rather than blatantly pointing fingers and saying "he's the bad guy", it would help us get anywhere that is not this endless maelstrom of negativity. I'm not being elitist in saying you should CHANGE your opinion, I'm asking you to consider others perspective, views and values. (by you, I mean anyone reading it, not you specifically retnav98, just to clarify :))

retnav98 wrote: AMAZING....I don't expect you to read all my posts, but if you did you would read a man who has adjusted his thinking, and as a result of taking in the viewpoints of others is taking a hard look at himself... Maybe just like your post to Vesuvius, you're really confused about what you're saying and who you're saying it to...I really don't care to know what your motives or failed logics are..

I was too old to be playing kids games 40 years ago. Its time I left.

Xavathos wrote: @ retnav98

Excuse me, but I am guilty of nothing more than speaking my mind, whether that conforms with your thoughts and logic or not, does not give you right to repeatedly and childishly insult me. Someone of your self-proclaimed age should know better.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "Now now, let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."

- The Holy Grail -

@ sunshinenbrick

Haha, great movie that one. :D

[pi4t]

" we're anti-DRM as far as we can be."

 

Oh, yes? Then I assume we'll be getting the Elder Scrolls games released on GOG in the near future, along with the Fallout games which were removed when Bethesda acquired the license?

 

Thought not.

[Xavathos]

In response to post #24857264.

Spencerbilodeau wrote: Yup! Paid mods are gone! Free for play folks win! Woo hoo!!
Now.. can we please stop with the 'Forever free' banners on every new mod upload? It is not like this is the Occupy Movement or people fighting for gay rights (both great causes in my opinion) It was a resistance to a new policy by a game maker and vendor. This is not echoing down the channels of history. If you like how it feels to successfully protest and resist something you do not like, go turn that energy towards a cause that REALLY matters.

Haha, it's actually more likely that they decided to go back on the idea because of the DMCA claims than because people were "rising up" anyway. Wouldn't that be a bubble burster were Bethesda or Valve to announce it?

[KeltecRFB]

In response to post #24852949. #24853204, #24853924, #24853949, #24854139, #24856504, #24857199, #24858264 are all replies on the same post.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Look here, how the subject is discussed...

http://www.moddb.com/news/the-uncertain-future-of-paid-mods

A more rational and calm way of debating about modding and community.
Mean time people... watch the numbers, Nexus is bleeding mods and authors EVERY day and the numbers of hidden mods are growing at a frightening rate.

And don't tell me that that ALL those authors are money hunger... they are just disgusted about what happened this days and it still continue.
Among other, Fallout 3 lost an extraordinary quest and adventure series...

Endless walls of words, meaningless words, just watch the numbers and maybe you will begin to understand what is ALREADY happening.

What a victory...

ramccoid wrote: @CaladanAnduril
Well said.

It's time to give it a rest, why keep trying to flog a dead horse. What's done is done, let's move on and see what can be salvaged from this whole sordid mess.

Xavathos wrote: Well said.

It is indeed sad to see the damage that has been done in the last week, but it is not too late. :)

aegiltheugly wrote: I keep seeing that claim (mostly from the same people) but I haven't seen any data to back it up. How about some verifiable information rather than some generalized claims.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Xavathos who could know how late it is ?

Tnx the storyteller01 I read an excellent article ( link in his post below).
You should read it...

Quote

" It's common to see the community tear at itself over Valve’s policies, but the users persecuting the modders was new, and has created a rift that is still fresh and may remain here for a long time".

woodrobin wrote: There was anger at Valve and Bethesda for taking 75% of the money for mods were, other than releasing the Creation Kit, they did 0% of the work. The only fault that could be laid at the feet of modders there was in choosing to participate in such an obviously imbalanced system. But far worse than the 75%/25% split was the NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement)

There was a lot of general anger at modders for participating, but I think it was spilled over from legitimate problems Valve and Bethesda created. Here were the main problems:

1. Lack of communication between modders and players. This was 100% caused by Bethesda's and Valve's requirement of a NDA, which prevented modders from sharing information. The modders know their communities of users, have trust relationships with them, and shouldn't be cut off from the communication that created those bonds.

Fault: Valve and Bethesda.

2. Lack of preparation, explanation and communication from Bethesda/Valve. This compounded the first problem. If they weren't going to let the modders handle public relations, they needed to step up and do it properly themselves. They didn't.

Fault: Valve and Bethesda.

3. Lack of curation, policy and policing. Lack of curation allowed buggy, ugly one or two item mods to debut alongside works of art like Purity. Lack of policy allowed modders to upload mods that included works they didn't have clear rights to (as with the fishing mod and FNIS, for example) because they were given bad advice, and were prevented by the NDA from contacting other modders to ask for permission, as it normally works in this open community. Lack of policing allowed people to upload mods they in fact had no hand in writing at all, and the process of catching and correcting such action was nearly non-existent.

Fault: Valve.

4. Modder misbehavior. This was rare, but given the already poisoned atmosphere around the launch, the backlash spilled over to modders who didn't, for instance, taint or withdraw free previous versions. The NDA and shoddy PR don't excuse putting game-interrupting, immersion-breaking pop-up ads in the older free version of a mod, for instance. That's just going to rub some people the wrong way.

Fault: A very small subset of modders, for which all modders unfairly took flack by association far too often.

Fault for that: 25% Valve, since the NDA was so corrosive to trust and communication, 75% us, for triathlon of pitching fits, casting aspersions and jumping to conclusions.

Xavathos wrote: @CaladanAnduril

I knew optimism was rare but.. this is breaking new ground.
Alright, I'm pulling back out of this entire "discussion".
Even a simple hope has to be immediately crushed under the pessimistic foot of the vocal community. More and more am I realizing why so few actually bother to post anything here. Disgraceful.

OiramX5 wrote: Ha! I knew it it was the quest for heaven mod have been removed from fallout 3 before I even look!
I remember the author was complaining and crying all the time because his mod did not the success his hoped and he was disappointed because was a low number of downloads and blablabla, and funny the "few" people who has played really like and give congratulations to him (Me included)... really great thing of his part, maybe I should clap for him... sad even the 3 part where the half of things of the work was made by others modders was removed too... ah well, that author I really expected this act, and is more funny he almost never appeared before and now sprout of nothing just to remove... I go laugh a little to this fact rs

Woodrobin, I agree, I can not believe Bethesda claimed 45% and Valve claimed 30%, what the heck did Valve do other than have a place to post mods. Shoot the modder can post it here or create their own website like those modders that have been kicked from the Nexus or decided to leave. The most valve can claim without being idiots is 10%. As for Bethesda, no more than 15%. I don't care what industry standards dictate, let's be realistic and not be greedy. Yes, I do believe in capitalism but I don't believe in being Bernie Madoff {With Your Money}. Bethesda and Valve already made their money and now they are robbing the poor modder by double dipping. To do this correctly, place a donation button by the mod. Those who are impressed by the mod, the mod author's support, and can afford it, they will be happy to donate and I have seen it many times here on the Nexus of people wanting to donate money for their perception of a quality mod or because of great modder support. Those that can not afford donating or are just too cheap to donate, they can download the mod for free like it is now. Those who donate should have the most say and access to support. Those that don't, do not have as much pull and support. And if Bethesda is receiving a cut, then all assets from previous games should be available to make the mod and to those who donate instead of having to already owned the game. Although most that donate probably already own the game. The good thing about donating is perhaps the Mod Author will be more compelled to continue support of his/her mod and not burn out as fast or can do it to make extra money on the side or if they are unemployed. Although the donations will not support them, it would be nice to have something extra. About 20 years ago, I was in a similar situation and ran my own computer repair business. I had a few clients and I was able to make extra money to cover things. Nothing to live on but it made life more comfortable and I did this until I started installing DSL when DSL was first rolled out and I would be on a call with the NOC or Central Office for 4 hours to see if the ATM PVCs had been built or changed, or to see if the phone connection had been properly SLAMMED (connected to the DSLAM).

EDIT: It appears there is already a Donate button here on the Nexus but I do agree with Dark One, it needs to be more noticeable because I didn't notice it until he said something about it. The Donate button does allow you to donate to the modder via Pay Pal or you can donate a Nexus Premium Nexus Supporter to them as well. Edited May 1, 2015 by KeltecRFB

[bullpcp]

Valve and Bethesda simply revealed the truth of this "communities" utter lack of respect for the modders that are the basis of this community. The schism in this "community" is not their fault, it is the communities fault. The people feeling entitled to other peoples work and entitled to dictating the choices that others make is what caused the schism.

 

Users that receive free mods are not customers, and users that are not willing to purchase mods are not even potential customers. People providing you with free goods and services owe you and the "community" NOTHING. You don't deserve to get paid for receiving a GIFT. The mods created and distributed to this community are GIFTS. People giving you GIFTS are not obligated to continue to give them and you are not entitled to receive them. I'm not advocating people utilizing others resources without their permission, stealing, or defending Valves and Bethesda's implementation of the system, which was inept to write the least.

 

True respect is allowing others to make decisions for themselves, even if you disagree with those decisions. This means that the modders, and those willing to purchase their mods, should be allowed to sale and purchase clearly owned mods for whatever price they agree upon. You don’t get to dictate to modders what the appropriate price for their mod is, what an appropriate amount of recompense for selling their mod is, or how much the purchaser gets to pay, while claiming you have any respect for the individuals involved in the voluntary transaction. People have the right to sale whatever they clearly CLEARLY own, for whatever amount they wish, to whomever agrees to purchase it. You have not moral, ethical, or legal right to interfere in this voluntary exchange.

 

I’m tired of the false premise that both users and modders are entitled, or that both modders and users owe the “community”. Modders aren't entitled by asking to be allowed to voluntarily sale their IP, for understood and agreed upon compensation, to those willing to purchase them. However free users, not customers, interfering in this voluntary exchange are most certainly entitled. Those that create the mods, that are the purpose of the existence of this site, don’t owe the “community” ANYTHING. Again, I’m writing about clearly owned IP were the resources involved are clearly owned, or the owners have explicitly given permission to user their IP, to sale the mod. Again I’m not advocating for stealing or fraud of any kind or defending the implementation of the process. I’m only pointing out the utter lack of perspective and respect exhibited by many users on this site.

 

To all the modders who have so many gifts to this site over the years. Thank you. Much love and respect.

 

Peace.

Edited May 1, 2015 by bullpcp

[bullpcp]

In response to post #24857879.

pi4t wrote: " we're anti-DRM as far as we can be."

Oh, yes? Then I assume we'll be getting the Elder Scrolls games released on GOG in the near future, along with the Fallout games which were removed when Bethesda acquired the license?

Thought not.

Conditional statements are conditional. Nuance is lost.

[Deleted3507349User]

An interesting article to read. While it's not gaming-related it definitely has bearing on the future of this whole mess. Give it a read and some thought.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/04/ask-a-hostage-negotiator-whats-the-best-way-to-talk-about-a-raise/391943/

[OiramX5]

In response to post #24852949. #24853204, #24853924, #24853949, #24854139, #24856504, #24857199, #24857919 are all replies on the same post.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Look here, how the subject is discussed...

http://www.moddb.com/news/the-uncertain-future-of-paid-mods

A more rational and calm way of debating about modding and community.
Mean time people... watch the numbers, Nexus is bleeding mods and authors EVERY day and the numbers of hidden mods are growing at a frightening rate.

And don't tell me that that ALL those authors are money hunger... they are just disgusted about what happened this days and it still continue.
Among other, Fallout 3 lost an extraordinary quest and adventure series...

Endless walls of words, meaningless words, just watch the numbers and maybe you will begin to understand what is ALREADY happening.

What a victory...

ramccoid wrote: @CaladanAnduril
Well said.

It's time to give it a rest, why keep trying to flog a dead horse. What's done is done, let's move on and see what can be salvaged from this whole sordid mess.

Xavathos wrote: Well said.

It is indeed sad to see the damage that has been done in the last week, but it is not too late. :)

aegiltheugly wrote: I keep seeing that claim (mostly from the same people) but I haven't seen any data to back it up. How about some verifiable information rather than some generalized claims.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Xavathos who could know how late it is ?

Tnx the storyteller01 I read an excellent article ( link in his post below).
You should read it...

Quote

" It's common to see the community tear at itself over Valve’s policies, but the users persecuting the modders was new, and has created a rift that is still fresh and may remain here for a long time".

woodrobin wrote: There was anger at Valve and Bethesda for taking 75% of the money for mods were, other than releasing the Creation Kit, they did 0% of the work. The only fault that could be laid at the feet of modders there was in choosing to participate in such an obviously imbalanced system. But far worse than the 75%/25% split was the NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement)

There was a lot of general anger at modders for participating, but I think it was spilled over from legitimate problems Valve and Bethesda created. Here were the main problems:

1. Lack of communication between modders and players. This was 100% caused by Bethesda's and Valve's requirement of a NDA, which prevented modders from sharing information. The modders know their communities of users, have trust relationships with them, and shouldn't be cut off from the communication that created those bonds.

Fault: Valve and Bethesda.

2. Lack of preparation, explanation and communication from Bethesda/Valve. This compounded the first problem. If they weren't going to let the modders handle public relations, they needed to step up and do it properly themselves. They didn't.

Fault: Valve and Bethesda.

3. Lack of curation, policy and policing. Lack of curation allowed buggy, ugly one or two item mods to debut alongside works of art like Purity. Lack of policy allowed modders to upload mods that included works they didn't have clear rights to (as with the fishing mod and FNIS, for example) because they were given bad advice, and were prevented by the NDA from contacting other modders to ask for permission, as it normally works in this open community. Lack of policing allowed people to upload mods they in fact had no hand in writing at all, and the process of catching and correcting such action was nearly non-existent.

Fault: Valve.

4. Modder misbehavior. This was rare, but given the already poisoned atmosphere around the launch, the backlash spilled over to modders who didn't, for instance, taint or withdraw free previous versions. The NDA and shoddy PR don't excuse putting game-interrupting, immersion-breaking pop-up ads in the older free version of a mod, for instance. That's just going to rub some people the wrong way.

Fault: A very small subset of modders, for which all modders unfairly took flack by association far too often.

Fault for that: 25% Valve, since the NDA was so corrosive to trust and communication, 75% us, for triathlon of pitching fits, casting aspersions and jumping to conclusions.

Xavathos wrote: @CaladanAnduril

I knew optimism was rare but.. this is breaking new ground.
Alright, I'm pulling back out of this entire "discussion".
Even a simple hope has to be immediately crushed under the pessimistic foot of the vocal community. More and more am I realizing why so few actually bother to post anything here. Disgraceful.

KeltecRFB wrote: Woodrobin, I agree, I can not believe Bethesda claimed 45% and Valve claimed 30%, what the heck did Valve do other than have a place to post mods. Shoot the modder can post it here or create their own website like those modders that have been kicked from the Nexus or decided to leave. The most valve can claim without being idiots is 10%. As for Bethesda, no more than 15%. I don't care what industry standards dictate, let's be realistic and not be greedy. Yes, I do believe in capitalism but I don't believe in being Bernie Madoff {With Your Money}. Bethesda and Valve already made their money and now they are robbing the poor modder by double dipping. To do this correctly, place a donation button by the mod. Those who are impressed by the mod, the mod author's support, and can afford it, they will be happy to donate and I have seen it many times here on the Nexus of people wanting to donate money for their perception of a quality mod or because of great modder support. Those that can not afford donating or are just too cheap to donate, they can download the mod for free like it is now. Those who donate should have the most say and access to support. Those that don't, do not have as much pull and support. And if Bethesda is receiving a cut, then all assets from previous games should be available to make the mod and to those who donate instead of having to already owned the game. Although most that donate probably already own the game. The good thing about donating is perhaps the Mod Author will be more compelled to continue support of his/her mod and not burn out as fast or can do it to make extra money on the side or if they are unemployed. Although the donations will not support them, it would be nice to have something extra. About 20 years ago, I was in a similar situation and ran my own computer repair business. I had a few clients and I was able to make extra money to cover things. Nothing to live on but it made life more comfortable and I did this until I started installing DSL when DSL was first rolled out and I would be on a call with the NOC or Central Office for 4 hours to see if the ATM PVCs had been built or changed, or to see if the phone connection had been properly SLAMMED (connected to the DSLAM).

Ha! I knew it it was the quest for heaven mod have been removed from fallout 3 before I even look!
I remember the author was complaining and crying all the time because his mod did not the success his hoped and he was disappointed because was a low number of downloads and blablabla, and funny the "few" people who has played really like and give congratulations to him (Me included)... really great thing of his part, maybe I should clap for him... sad even the 3 part where the half of things of the work was made by others modders was removed too... ah well, that author I really expected this act, and is more funny he almost never appeared before and now sprout of nothing just to remove... I go laugh a little to this fact rs Edited May 1, 2015 by OiramX5