Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Saije]

In response to post #24733199. #24733474 is also a reply to the same post.

Elta1 wrote:

sa547 wrote: All the damage could've been averted if the powers-that-be asked for a public consultation in the first place.

Stop trying to ride the white horse here.

Modders turncoated on the community with hilarious haste.

Users responded in the way that an individual betrayed will always respond.

And now that the dust is settled and the greedy have shown their true colors.

(The fact that they don't give flying f*#@ about the community, just money.)

Now that the paid modding has been vanquished and said greedy individuals have no

recourse except to accept that they were completely happy in their betrayel.

You try to paste the blame on the ones betrayed rather then the ones betraying...

Ridiculous.


I hope if one lesson has been learned from all this it is this...

People will betray each other in a heartbeat when money is involved.


The only modders who deserve any sympathy are the ones that were attacked by the

greedy capitalist pushing pissants for not standing at the side of their fellow turncoats.

Sorry if I get banned for this comment... But it needed to be said.

[sgtchase]

I have been keeping tabs on this since the whole thing launched. I understand the points both sides are making in this.

 

On the side of Bethesda and Valve.

They did have good intentions for this. The biggest issue is they kept it under the woodworking for so long and didn't get the communities input on this and how they should proceed properly was the downfall for it.

Paid mods will come up again. The door has been opened and it won't close so easy. As we look at the paid mod or donate mod group. That brings much better content out into the light. SKYUI is a great improvement for skyrim. The issue with something like SkyUI is it requires a free piece of content to be used (SKSE), and that in itself has danger written all over it. As the vast majority of mods use SKSE any one that went on to be paid is a target for a halt of distribution.

 

On the side of the Modding Community.

 

Most of the people who install mods are mainly wanting free content. That is clear, but also if the mod is extremely well done there is always ways to support them. Donating to the modder is the primary way of making that happen. There are vast amounts of mods that don't work well or they are stopped being developed due to the fact that it takes time to learn and understand the tools. They juggle that with their own personal lives and the personal life takes priority over the mod and the mod falls. How many great mods have been released with grand promise and showing then they fall into nothing due to the time needed to the time they can work on it.

 

Dark0ne hits all the points well. I have ran through the conversation with Gabe a number of times looking at the angle of the community and the angle of a Developer. Both have strong cases for each side but ultimately Valve didn't fully understand the long history of the Elder Scrolls/Fallout community that Bethesda has. Bethesda also didn't fully get it either. Both have taken a huge hit to their trust with community members but they will still produce and develop improvements.

 

If they had asked the community which would be the better choice. Forced Pay mods or Donation mods, they would have had a much better voice from the community as to which would be better to have.

 

Granted I am not a full expert on the subject but when you look at it from a logical standpoint, both parties were in the right on things and both parties were in the wrong on things. We can't say this won't happen again because it is going to with new titles that come out. As a community we do need to work with the Developer or a game to make it right. Same with the medium providing the services for us (Valve). When you get the main parties together of all 3 groups they can come up with the best course of action.

 

I personally wasn't fully against paid mods. I am happy to spend a few bucks here and there for a mod that brings in a vast quality to a game and series I have loved for many years. It's just when they leave out that 3rd party and make the decision based on the 2 parties views causes a massive backlash that we saw over the past week.

 

So closing points for this long comment.

 

Valve/Bethesda- They had a good intention for doing this, they just put it out in the wrong fashion which caused a PR Nightmare.

 

Modding community- They also had good intentions in their defense. But there were lines crossed that should have never happened (death threats, verbal and written abuse). This can cause developers to stop released the Dev Kits for their games out of fear. It's best to convene with the developers and talk it out peacefully to get a resolution to the problem.

 

This issue was a powder keg waiting to be lit, and when it was lit the backlash hit all effected parties. We have top notch modders pulling their content from all areas of distribution out of fear and needing time to process what has happened and what role they will have in the future.

 

I just hope in the future the developers and valve will open a forum to discuss this matter with the communities that have been a long standing support for them, because without their communities the games they make would no longer be played after the final updates for most people.

 

Regards

sgtchase

[Celestros]

In response to post #24732359. #24732454, #24732714, #24732834, #24733099, #24733309, #24733494 are all replies on the same post.

Reaper0021 wrote:

JCDNWarrior wrote: There was a massive war machine being prepared and pushed out from various anonymous sites throughout the days too, as well as the massive spreading of the information.

I very much doubt that Beth and Valve would've stopped if it wasn't for the absolutely massive resistance from modders, the community, and the gaming community as a whole.

WightMage wrote: Damn right. They really didn't need to end the whole thing like they did. It's almost comparable to the end of the Cold War.

Dark0ne wrote: I really don't think I had much to do with it at all.

phantompally76 wrote: I would say 99% of that "war machine" was being completely ignored by Valve and Bethesda, since the vast majority of that "war machine" was unhinged sociopathic sycophants who were pasting ASCII genitalia all over the internet in protest.

Gopher saying "I want this to go away" on Youtube probably did more to change their mind than any of those petitions, subreddits, Steam Groups, or letters to individuals who will never see them.

WightMage wrote: Humble much, Dark0ne? You got to speak with Lord GabeN himself, and he expressed as much how important he thought the Nexus was.

I'm sure you made an impact- the most important of which was sticking to your guns. Thanks for being there for everyone.

Reaper0021 wrote: COME ON Robin!!!! You spoke to "Gabe". Man of course you had something to do with it. You ARE the "Nexus". It's face it's spokesman. You're humble man and I love you for it but of course you did.

The only thing the community or groups of the community could have done is start killing off monetized mods with DMCA take down requests. Specifically, if the authors of SKSE, SkyUI, or other ubiquitous mods decided to group together and target those that use their resources.

Short of that, there is nothing they could have done that would have affected Valve or Bethesda.

----------
I was, not excited, but interested to see how this would play out when Fallout 4 comes out. Skyrim was a bad candidate because of established free exchange by the community, but when there is a clean slate would we have such an open community in regards to resources?

It was clearly their plan to introduce paid modding into Fallout 4 and that would be a feature of their announcement in 2 months. We shall see if they still mention it or if this all gets completely swept under the rug.

[phantompally76]

In response to post #24731659. #24731874, #24731934, #24731964, #24732044, #24732099, #24732629, #24732674, #24732819, #24732844, #24733339 are all replies on the same post.

Dark0ne wrote:

mnelson999 wrote:

...Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one....

Speechless.

sheson wrote: Yes trying to force such a paradigm shift on the community without any prior public communications. Whatever were they thinking?

Lets hope we as a community learned a lesson or two as well. Because apparently we tent to over communicate.

sheson wrote: Wild guess: They counting consoles maybe?

Riprock wrote: Hmmm. I personally wouldn't make money decisions based on those numbers so I wonder. Grain of salt, etc on those figures. Eight percent...I'd bet one new dollar that was what they figured on, and then they found they weren't on the mark. Of course, this also gives a hint at how popular their game is.

phantompally76 wrote: So much for that 5% kickback.

Tough break.

JCDNWarrior wrote: That's of course based on the Steam Workshop numbers. I don't think they can really see if we use mods when we have Steam on Offline Mode, running the game in SKSE with Nexus-only mods for example, nor see if the time I spent in the Creation Kit led to any mods. If they said published mods, well that would be a little bit closer.

jfisha wrote: "So much for that 5% kickback.

Tough break."

You can always go premium and help the Nexus out! :)

x9fallen wrote: So less than 8% of the Skyrim audience was able to mobilize and make Valve cry uncle... if only for awhile. Damn good.

Glubglubglub wrote: I've heard enough prominent modders gripe about Beth's SDKs (not to mention Papyrus) to know that 'amazing' is a sparkling bit of gloss on your part. How many unfixed and unpatched bugs are there still in Skyrim? How many promised features undelivered?

The idea that Bethesda wants to nurture the mod community but blundered badly is the politest fiction. If they wanted to capitalize on Skyrim, they could have patched the game as they planned to before switching gears to ESO.

A terrible PR nightmare is exactly what Valve and Bethesda deserved for trying to cannibalize the mod community. Watching them back away with their hands in the air is a proud moment.

mel5765 wrote: It's likely based on Steam Workshop data and not 3rd party websites like Nexus. Remember that Bethesda has no idea what you added into your game.

"You can always go premium and help the Nexus out!"

Or I can continue to click on ads in the top right corner, which generates far more revenue for the site.

Valve, Bethesda and mod authors aren't the only ones in this not coming out smelling like roses.......

[JCDNWarrior]

In response to post #24732904. #24733249, #24733334, #24733504 are all replies on the same post.

Naky wrote:

trold wrote: + 9000

Brasscatcher wrote: Considering they have been willing to go a distance that most companies find laughable these days, I find it hard to be so demanding myself...but I do agree, as someone who is starting cold with modding skyrim, it's pretty f*n hard trying to figure out how this stuff works!

Frankly, if they had a $5 buy-in for their tools and provided total documentation I wouldn't bat an eye when cashing out. Hell, I'd buy gift copies to sprinkle on other people. My own two septims, of course. :)

donta1979 wrote: +1
Thats what I also agree with too they just give the geck, the rest of the tools are all from some other companies be it the modder buys them, uses educational licenses, freeware, community made. I so want to see Bethesda release their production pipeline tools to the modding community, would be nice to do everything in Maya for once when it comes to modding. If they release their production pipeline tools to the community I could also make so many new animations for people. We could turn out so many better looking mods as well...

Similar with the Havok physics engine's lack of documentation, as well as the lack of 64-bit support all the way up to today. Without tireless third party mod programs we couldn't have reached the 200-mod sized installations that we hear and see today (including my own). Getting past the 3.1 GB issue, for example.

Bethesda really really needs to step up if they want to regain trust and respect.

[ashtonx]

In response to post #24733384.

JCDNWarrior wrote:

I think bethesda and valve learned they ought to inform about paid mods before launching the game.

[me3deager]

Great news and thanks for the post!

[Brasscatcher]

In response to post #24732799. #24733074, #24733259 are all replies on the same post.

BarnabasCollins wrote:

Dark0ne wrote: For the most part, this is also how I felt.

Avastgard wrote: Same here. I was relieved to see how they defended the proliferation of mods, paid or not.

I found the idea of striking it rich from selling mods untenable, but yeah. Corporate lawyers like to set a precedent that gives them an advantageous footing, and I was freaking terrified of what this could have turned into. I mean, the CASUAL ADVICE of Valve legal counsel to Chesko was "eh, screw it. Sell your mod, even if it's got other people's work in it" and then when he tried to back out they told him what I was certain would be their stance forever afterwards: "Unless your willing to lawyer-up and pursue us, we aren't taking down anything." That stuff sounded fairly damning.

I'm glad to see things turned out differently. This sets a damn fine precedent for keeping modding open to all and free, unless we each of us decide otherwise.

[jfisha]

In response to post #24731659. #24731874, #24731934, #24731964, #24732044, #24732099, #24732629, #24732674, #24732819, #24732844, #24733339, #24733619 are all replies on the same post.

Dark0ne wrote:

mnelson999 wrote:

...Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one....

Speechless.

sheson wrote: Yes trying to force such a paradigm shift on the community without any prior public communications. Whatever were they thinking?

Lets hope we as a community learned a lesson or two as well. Because apparently we tent to over communicate.

sheson wrote: Wild guess: They counting consoles maybe?

Riprock wrote: Hmmm. I personally wouldn't make money decisions based on those numbers so I wonder. Grain of salt, etc on those figures. Eight percent...I'd bet one new dollar that was what they figured on, and then they found they weren't on the mark. Of course, this also gives a hint at how popular their game is.

phantompally76 wrote: So much for that 5% kickback.

Tough break.

JCDNWarrior wrote: That's of course based on the Steam Workshop numbers. I don't think they can really see if we use mods when we have Steam on Offline Mode, running the game in SKSE with Nexus-only mods for example, nor see if the time I spent in the Creation Kit led to any mods. If they said published mods, well that would be a little bit closer.

jfisha wrote: "So much for that 5% kickback.

Tough break."

You can always go premium and help the Nexus out! :)

x9fallen wrote: So less than 8% of the Skyrim audience was able to mobilize and make Valve cry uncle... if only for awhile. Damn good.

Glubglubglub wrote: I've heard enough prominent modders gripe about Beth's SDKs (not to mention Papyrus) to know that 'amazing' is a sparkling bit of gloss on your part. How many unfixed and unpatched bugs are there still in Skyrim? How many promised features undelivered?

The idea that Bethesda wants to nurture the mod community but blundered badly is the politest fiction. If they wanted to capitalize on Skyrim, they could have patched the game as they planned to before switching gears to ESO.

A terrible PR nightmare is exactly what Valve and Bethesda deserved for trying to cannibalize the mod community. Watching them back away with their hands in the air is a proud moment.

mel5765 wrote: It's likely based on Steam Workshop data and not 3rd party websites like Nexus. Remember that Bethesda has no idea what you added into your game.

phantompally76 wrote: "You can always go premium and help the Nexus out!"

Or I can continue to click on ads in the top right corner, which generates far more revenue for the site.

Valve, Bethesda and mod authors aren't the only ones in this not coming out smelling like roses.......

When you get down and fight a war in the trenches, everyone comes out smelling like s#*!, my friend

[setsuna515]

In response to post #24732124. #24732174, #24732224, #24732264, #24732339, #24732529, #24732594, #24732694, #24732724, #24732769, #24732784, #24733104 are all replies on the same post.

Salazanz wrote:

CelticPaladin wrote: Those "Greedy" modders are very unlikely to be back with their mods, and it's a damn shame.

JCDNWarrior wrote: I don't know if we could trust such modders anymore, though. We may also have to look out for spite updates from them for being caught between the two forces like this.

Having said that, I do hope they will return to the fold and redouble their modding efforts for the community.

phantompally76 wrote: It is. But others will take their place.

KoZAcK1021 wrote: Why? If they can't monetize it why not make it free?

calfurius wrote: Greedy modders? How is it greedy to sell what you work hard to make? Do you have a job? or have you ever sold a product that you made in your entire life?

Elta1 wrote: Too bad those "greedy modders" are some of the best modders.

akkalat85 wrote: They are part of our community. Remember, every one of them contributed to this scene over the years. If they come back we should welcome them with open arms. Every one of us is one less of them.

Dark0ne wrote: Most of those "greedy modders" you speak of kept all ther mods up on the Nexus, for free, through all this drama.

phantompally76 wrote: @calfurius, mods were never designed to be sold.

Refusing to pay for alterations to a product one has already purchased isn't greedy. It's common sense. No one forced mod authors to spend any amount of time on any mod. That's simply not how it works.

If mod authors want to make money, they need to stop farting around with video game data files and go get a job. We'll miss their creativity, but we'll get by.

JCDNWarrior wrote: Once you sell a mod, you're a professional developer. This opens the can of worms, the people that buy and play your DLC also would be vastly more strict and demanding, logically, and you would probably be breaking many rules on commercial use of software that only may be used non-commercially. With Steam having such little quality control (early access, greenlight, even a few normal old re-released games) this would've catched fire easily.


I'm glad we don't have to worry about these things for a while though, until they try it again.

RS13 wrote: Dude, you won. Be a gracious winner.

Those modders were no more greedy than those of us who said--loadly and often--that we didn't want to pay for mods. They wanted to make some money, we wanted to keep our money. While a mass migration to the paywalls of the workshop would have been a bad thing for the community, they didn't owe us anything. Let's not villify them just because we stood on opposite sides of this.

@Salazanz

Oh, don't put it that way. If I were in their shoes and got approached by Bethesda and Valve to make money from mods, I'd be on board too (especially if I had some serious talent). I mean, that's Bethesda, the official developer, giving you the opportunity to make mods for a living. That's like when YouTube offered ways for Let's Players to make a living from playing and recording games.

It's a dream come true, right? It's hard to turn that down when you think of it that way.

Anyway, it looks like our most high-profile mod authors that entered into the deal were probably just testing the waters. If they *really* wanted to put their content behind a paywall, they would have removed all old versions of their mods. But they *didn't*.

So, my guess is they were going to see how releasing a new version of their mod on Steam worked out. You know, could they make anything substantial from this? If so, could they release old versions to Nexus and just sell newest version on Steam (I know this was said to be Chesko's plan, but I never found confirmation on that). Unfortunately, it was, and still is, unclear as to whether that sort of plan would have been legally feasible.