Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[UberSmaug]

In response to post #24747184.

Saerileth wrote:

Everyone should read it. I'll pm it to you if you like.

[pantera160]

In response to post #24742594. #24742759, #24742849, #24742924, #24742934, #24743009, #24743059, #24743149, #24743254, #24743299, #24743359, #24743449, #24743474, #24743514, #24743524, #24743584, #24743604, #24743624, #24743724, #24743739, #24743769, #24743774, #24743884, #24743929, #24743984, #24744049, #24744139, #24744159, #24744279, #24744479, #24744519, #24744574, #24744719, #24744789, #24744794, #24744929, #24744964, #24744989, #24745004, #24745054, #24745174, #24745279, #24745339, #24745449, #24745494, #24745729, #24745734, #24745839, #24745939, #24746154, #24746294, #24746544, #24746674, #24746704, #24746719, #24747064, #24747169, #24747379, #24747459, #24747514, #24747554 are all replies on the same post.

FavoredSoul wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: Sorry you feel that way FavoredSoul.

We'll survive with or without you.

We'll also probably be a lot more cautious with our praise and endorsements. And with our trust.

popcorn71 wrote: If your complaining about the hate being spewed on steam then why post files to the steam workshop? If Valve will not moderate their comment section and you don't like what people are saying about your mod then just don't use the workshop. Not that I'm excusing the tolls, but why put your self in a possession where you are subjected to their hate in the first place?

=== Edit ===
To clarify, I have not read ANYTHING on steam for several day. I currently have steam offline and firewalled. This all just seems too convenient to me and I don't really trust Valve right now.

Orgaya wrote: For what it's worth, I agree with you.

This whole experience has taught me that this modding community is a massive s#*! stain.

FavoredSoul wrote: Fact is, the trolls are everywhere, workshop or not. nexus sites just do a good job of throwing a cloth over it. But its still there underneath.

And you're right. I will delete all my stuff of the workshop cause it is just awful over there.

dunmermagic wrote: I'm sorry you feel that way, but most major modders were against this. If you had some trolls get on your nerves, well that sucks, and if you feel the need to take down your mods, that's your choice. But nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything. That's the way it's worked for 13 years, and it's worked out pretty well if I do say so myself.

jmenaru wrote: I agree with you 100% FavoredSoul. I never expected Bethesda to remove this just because of the negative backlash, but I guess I was wrong.

FavoredSoul wrote: @dunmermagic

"nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything"


My point entirely.

Mod-users are happy to use you and your mods while you're offering, and then just as happily ready to throw you away without second thought.

You know what that is an example of? Taking another human being for granted for your own selfish needs.

phantompally76 wrote: Bah, stop acting like you're a victim.

6 days ago, selling your mods was illegal.

Axeface wrote: I completely agree with everything you said favouredsoul. This farse has shown what this community can be, it's like a pit of vipers. One thing is certain, I am disgusted by this community now and I dont want anything to do with it.

Now, I havent done anything really noteworthy for skyrim (althought I did take a very long time and effort making my small mods), but I have done extensive modding in other games, thousands of hours. The steam change got me interested again - I started drawing, I loaded up zbrush. I for one was really excited by the steam change and the quality mods we would have seen from it. It needed to be tweaked because is wasnt done well, but overall I think we are really missing out - both authors and users.

"hahahahahahahahha. Its hard enough getting people to CLICK A BUTTON TO ENDORSE A MOD, you think for a second people are going to strain their finger to use a donate button to give me their 5c? Reality is right here buddy, where have you been living?"

This is so true. I looked at my mods stats on the workshop that has 90,000 current subscribers - most days I get 0 'likes', on 'spike' days where I get a lot of dls (like a few days ago with 400 subs) I got 3 likes. I dont care honestly, but it shows just how sincere this 'we like to donate!' argument is.

"Valve and Bethesda certainly fcuked things up, royally, for a long time to come. All I want to do is remove my mods cause at least half of the hateful, selfish people out there just don't deserve anything at all. "

I was about to remove my mods too. Obviously mine are nothing mods, not like yours, but one has almost 100,000 subs. I just dont feel like I want to be part of this community anymore now.

EDIT: I'm removing my mods, "phantompally76" and his comments has pushed me over the edge.

Orgaya wrote: @FavoredSoul

You're not alone with that. Have you seen other mod authors' pages that decided to use the system? It was a real gong show. Constant feedback of people acting like they are entitled to free content.

@Everyone Else

If this experience has taught us anything, it's that no one deserves free stuff. We certainly haven't proven it.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ phantompally76

If i'm acting like a victim its because you, just now, made me a victim. I am a victim of your hate.

So someone wants to make 50c on a future mod that WOULDNT HAVE EXISTED IF NOT FOR THE SCHEME.

Mod authors are, and always will be, victims of mod-user hate. The hate that has been written for mod-authors here. The hate that has been written for mod-authors on steam. The hate that you wrote against me just right now, and all of the hate yet to be written.

nbtc971 wrote: You act as though someone hired you for a job. It was your decision and own desire to mod, no one asked you or forced you. In addition, when you created your content, you had to think at the time that you were doing it for free, so, if you don't want to do it for free any longer, then don't do it. I can't really blame you for that.

Anyone who creates anything for public consumption has to know that lots of people are entitled jerks. If you didn't, then I'm sure that was quite the wake up call. I haven't read all the comments, I'm sure there are a lot of fools saying stupid stuff, but that's the world we live in. Some will choose to punish those who are grateful due to the comments of the lowest denominator and I think that sucks, but, I can't really complain about it because it's not my time and effort that's being taken to task.

jfisha wrote: I'm just going to throw this in there, but I've personally never complained or wrote s#*! about a mod author because their mods are free. You can't complain about something you're getting for free, right?

Of course, that's not true for everyone, but with a free mod if you hid somebodies comment or told them to "f off", I'd be right there with ya.

However, if I paid for your mod, you'll f'nng take it and like it. You're no longer a person putting up free content, you're like the telephone company now, and I'm a very nice person but the lady that answer's the phone there absolutely hates me.

SkepticalJoker wrote: FavoredSoul,

No one is forcing you to make mods. If it's not fun, then why the hell are you doing it? Find another hobby, for goodness sake! And yes, it IS a hobby. It always has been. Nothing has changed on that front. Valve and Bethesda tried to do exactly what you claim mod users are doing: Take advantage of you. They wanted you to labor, then sell your labor to users, and keep 75% of the proceeds. The only people that win are Valve and Bethesda. Mod users may use your labor by playtesting and enjoying your mods, but they aren't making a profit off your work either. They're not asking you to make mods that they can then sell, while kicking back a measly 25%.

This idea could have worked if the kickback was fair and there was some modicum of assurance to the consumers that mods would be properly curated. As it stood, mod authors were getting screwed, consumers were getting screwed, and the legality of it all was questionable to say the least. Valve and Bethesda did one thing right, and that was to shut this absurd experiment down.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

You speak wise words.

phantompally76 wrote: FavoredSoul, I don't hate you.

I'm just very disappointed with you.

I don't expect you to lose any sleep over that.

I'm not going to lose any sleep, either.

Orgaya wrote: That isn't what the complaint here is. It's this idea that modders should never be given the option to be paid because the mod-user is entitled to free content for no reason. This simply isn't true or fair. And it's wholly disrespectful and incredibly insensitive to treat those who are giving handouts like dogshit.

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is a rather minority stance here. I think you will find most people at the Nexus are in favour of the option to give back to those they want to give back to.

EDIT: Isn't it actually technicaly, probably illegal to be even having these conversations now Bethesda has pulled the rug?

jfisha wrote: I disagree, Orgaya.

We were given the content. That's not a feeling of entitlement.

If you and I were hanging out and I gave you one of my beers, I can't tell the rest of my friends that you're an entitled piece of crap because you took it.

Let's not forget that up until three days ago, most of us here thought all the mod authors were perfectly fine with the way things were going. We've been thriving for four years, for Christ's sake.

I don't think that point gets brought up enough

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

Its so flawed.

THE ENTIRE MODDING SCENE IS ABOUT CHOICE.

I make a choice to make mods.
People make a choice to consume them.
I make a choice to charge 50c for a particular mod...

Yeah, no one asked me to be a modder. In just the same way, nobody asked you to be a consumer.

I have a choice to charge 50c, you have a choice on whether or not to pay 50c.

What gives you the right to come along and say you may not charge 50c?

Orgaya wrote: @phantompally76

You're disappointed in him... because he wanted to be compensated for his work. Ugh. It's just a game. You don't need mods. Sorry. You don't. None of us do.

phantompally76 wrote: Orgaya, did you even read what you just typed?


I agree with you. We don't NEED mods.

We don't NEED to buy them, either.

BadYeti wrote: Now imagine having all those mod users as customers. Having to solve their insane issues because you accepted their money. :~O It's the stuff of nightmares.

digitaltrucker wrote: Indeed, once they've paid for it they DO become entitled at that point.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

I'm aware that a 75% cut for valve and Bethesda made those guys appear greedy to a lot of people, but at the end of the day, its for the mod-author to decide whether or not the contract is fair, not the consumer. The decision gets made when the choice is made on whether or not to sell. I know that there are a lot of people who were ok with paying mod-authors for their work, they just had a huge issue with paying valve/bethesda that 75% for doing nothing but facilitate the exchange. But um... that's how businesses operate. There is ALWAYS going to be a middleman.

I also think you are unaware of the volume of money that was actually being made by the paid mods scheme. Even with a measly 25% cut, the money being generated was PHENOMENAL.

That mod-author with the skull face armor being sold at 1.99 per unit? that made at least 2100 sales before it was taken down. That's 4179$ of which 25% was his for a total of 1044$. Even after losing a few % to fees, that's a damn LOT of money for a few days of sales.

If that was you making that money in 4 days, you wouldn't give a f- for 25%. You'd be more than happy to take what you got. Don't think for a second that if you were in a position to sell mods for that kind of money, that people wanted, you wouldn't leap at the chance.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ BadYeti

And it is because of this that this ecosystem of different memebrs of a community is so important and unique. Bet you it was a f'ing nightmare here when things started out... come to think of it, there are still many volatile situations. One thing the people who run this site have compared to Steam and Bethesda, is experience in dealing with the massively dynamic world of modding.

nbtc971 wrote: I didn't come along and say anything, because it's not my place, however Bethesda, in this case, did create the very tools you used to create your mod. They also created the game you are modding. Obviously they have the right to tell you if it's ok to profit from their work. I personally didn't make a single comment in favor or against the system. I did however listen and read opinions from my favorite youtubers and I felt like they made some valid points.

If a system can be put in that is fair to everyone, then fine. I don't think gaming companies and Valve should take 75% of the freakin profits! I also want assurances that the mod is going to work when I buy it and after any other updates. In addition, I would want any mod conflicts to be reconciled in a timely manner, or eliminated all together. Right now I just don't think modders are going to be able to provide the type of service required for a paid product. At least not with Skyrim. For it work, we might have to have a new system for the next game.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: My paid non-internet office job, which I make my living off of, is to listen to people complain all day.

If you can't handle a few trolls, then you shouldn't do anything involving the public. Everyone gets trolled. I was bullied as a kid but I grew from it. At least the people on your Steam page can't physically attack you.

You go on about entitlement, but you sound pretty entitled to the recognition of your mods. Mods get recognition on their merit of usefulness, not purely because you put a lot of effort into it (don't get me wrong, the fact that you put effort into it has merit too).

If you want to make money off of your artistic talents, make a game. I enjoyed webdesign and in a few work instances I made websites.

Don't try to make money off of an open source community. That's another thing, and it's quite an unethical thing.

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

A lot of people keep making that argument, that this system goes down the toilet when mods break, cause you've paid money and there must be assured of a certain level of quality assurance.

well, user review systems have always existed to inform users about the sensibility of product purchases. Why have people suddenly forgotten about this?

Secondly, the mods that would have gotten the most sales are the cosmetic ones, the weapons, armors and skin mods. These mods seldom break, and any mod-author with half a brain wouldn't upload something that didn't function.

There would have been plenty of opportunists popping up all over trying to make a quick buck off of broken/ half finished mods for sure, but that brings us back to the user review system. One negative review and that mod will be exposed, it'll get buried and life will go on.

Zink6 wrote: Going to be honest with u, what kind of bottled life have u been living? U want an internet without hate? Have u been using the internet for long? U think ur the only poor type of sap to be flamed at? Bud if u cant handle this much on the internet then u need to not only stop modding but stop using the internet.

As for ur reaction. Ur the same as the the ones flaming u. U give ur points in a sarcastic sense and poke fun at the arguments that people have presented. U bring no constructive criticism. U say how u hate half the people here yet for some reason expect love in return. Knowing all this u still bother to post this comment.

Like really man ur acting like such a child. Plz grow up. This is the internet, ppl talk s#*!, if ur famous in a sense, ur going to be asked to kill yourself (this is not ok but at the same time how u going to stop it). U need to learn to ignore those ppl and work with the admins to better police the site. That's as much as u can ask or expect. If u want anything more u can go dream about it in ur sleep because if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?

nbtc971 wrote: @FavoredSoul How does a negative review make someone forget they spent money for a broken mod? Most people will care more about their hard earned money being wasted than the opportunity to leave a negative review in the hopes that it destroys a mod author.

jad31te wrote: "if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?"

I dunno, actually mod the site and start banning trolls?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Just sit back and wait for SOPA.

jfisha wrote: "You're damn straight its a mod-user vs mod-author argument."

I'll keep reiterating this until I turn blue in the face. No, it is not. Why, you ask? Because there's some mod user's that agree with you, there's some that don't. There's some mod authors that agree with you, some that don't.

There are three sides to this argument.

People who think mods should always remain free (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who think mod authors should be allowed to make money (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who will pay for good mods, but think Valve just implemented a crappy system (includes mod authors and mod users)

pvbridgeford wrote: I understand the frustration you are feeling, I'm a new modder, just learning how to mod. I've posted some small mods and rather insignificant at best. The complaints are endless from a few bad eggs, but I'm 67 now and have learned to let the s#*! hit the fan and step out of it's way. I respond to positive comments, but refuse to respond to anyone that is not at least constructive in their negativity. I hope you find it in your future to continue the great work you have been doing and find a way to enjoy the modding community again. Until then I'M Keeping all your work I've downloaded in a safe place so i'll have access to it in the future when I get a new computer.

Thanks again for all your hard work.

savagemoonlight wrote: Aren't you putting yourself up for even more abuses if people were to pay for your mod? Hey I want this sword to be green. I want it to sparkle. Hey you better give in to my demands cause I've freaking PAID for you mod, you're obligated to do as I ask.

Truth is, self-entitled abusive arsehole will always be around and I'm sorry how they've made you so cynical but paid modding is definitely not a solution to this.

roland113 wrote: Well said FavoredSoul.

You nailed it on the head, all the common negatives mod creators get a lot of as they pour their hearts into work. The 1 or 2% of people who take the time to hit the endorse button and people who want to use it to extort their requests even through they keep coming back and downloading every update you do. There are always a few trolls and angry, immature weirdos out there who ruin any online community or game.

It's easy to put up with community crap when its a paid job and you've got people plunking down monthly subscription fees, DLC or other things. Its entirely another when you're basically sharing stuff for free that you're doing for the pure passion of it.

Online game communities always schism like this when big changes hit too. Even good people get all worked up into a froth, and misinformation spreads too. Tensions rise and things become as volatile as if things were red hot discussions on religion or politics. I've seen it time and time again in the industry, and I'm even going through some stuff like this at my day job right now. ugh. Make a change in an existing system and all hell breaks loose.

It's easy to get furious at the jackasses of the world - but when all is said and done - I hope you're still able to appreciate the good community people too.

I still love working with the good people here in the Nexus community who are for the most part really cool and enthusiastic. I've met a lot of nice modders and fans from around the globe, and made quite a few really nice people here. The letters/ videos/ posted art and the helpful suggestions I get really make all the difference for me when I'm modding. It keeps me motivated and from working in a vacuum, and makes it easier to strive to improve.

For me this is basically my nightly jam sessions, and my free time to do whatever work I want, the way I want. The haters - well if they start to cross the lines I just delete them from my boards or ignore them. As for Steam - i mostly stayed away from that from the start, and will continue to do so because its community has never been the same caliber the Nexus is.

viperony wrote: I feel for you and hate to see the trolls being mean to you for your mods! But know most of us who love your mods are here to support you even with the donation button and what not your work has made a lot of us happy and we see the amazing effort you had done and the love seen in your work. Please don't listen to the bad comments or feel down because of them they can go up a tree! Don't remove the mods just because they are getting to you.

}{ellKnight wrote: @Orgaya
I'd agree with you if Bethesda were competent enough to fix their own game and make a decent UI. This hasn't been the case for years.


@FavoredSoul
People will be dicks on the internet regardless of whether they pay you or get your stuff for free. I highly doubt you'll put up with less s#*! if they can also throw in the "but I paid you for this" argument on top of all the other ones when they demand you do a certain thing a certain way. Like I said, people will be dicks on the internet.

I'm not saying some modders didn't get flamed. It isn't the right thing to do, this much is obvious for most of us and when talking about this on the different forums I directed my disappointment at Valve and Bethesda, not at the modders. Reading people's thoughts about this stuff on the forums where trolling gets you banned pretty fast I noticed that other people did the same as I did: arguing in a civil manner, not flaming modders. Did some people post s#*! on the nexus? Yes... they but were also banned for it when reported by the the rest of the community. Did some people post s#*! on steam? Yes... but most of them are still there and encouraged by other trolls. If you think putting your mod behind a pay wall on SWS will make people less rude on the steam forums you're sorely mistaken. Not to mention that the SWS is horrible for hosting skyrim mods due to the way information is baked into the save game. It can royally screw over your game and this is not even accounting for the conflicts that can pop up as mods get updated. As a user you have no control over updates.



You guys can "thank" us all you want by calling us shitstains and other names... we've done this for the past 13 years for free and it has produced amazing results and we want to preserve that. We've uploaded mods and had to put up with selfish people just like everybody else. It sucks but you have to remember that most people don't feel that way, that most people really appreciate the work we put into this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @FavoredSoul You need to look at the big picture here. That mod you said, the skull armor one, making a LOT OF MONNEEYY, it's the perfect example of why this system will harm the modding scene.
Some may say that being paid for mods will encourage mod authors to make great effort and create wonderful mods. While I think that's true, it will be the minority.
This model Valve implemented, will be filled with half assed armors and weapons, mostly cosmetics, with 0 passion and effort. Just like the app store for android. Hundreds and hundreds of stupid crap, totally tasteless and dull games, etc. The good mods will be few. The majority of people will take advantage of the brainless consumers and make no effort whatsoever for their mods. Modders will start to think and make mods with money in mind, passion being minor. It will be like a paid job, with deadlines and such.
I never thought of modding as a paid job. FOR ME, this will ruin the spirit of modding.

The Sims modding scene was DESTROYED when money got involved. A lot of sites started to exploit this, making paid mods a regular thing. Thank god its getting better, slowly.

Anyways, thats my point of view.

jfisha wrote: ValtielCurse

Let's not forget those poor souls who are scared away from sites like the Nexus just because they might have to do something other then hit "subscribe" to get a mod. Even if there's awesome free armor that blows away anything on Steam Workshop for 2 bucks, they'll still blindly pay it.

I guess that's not really much of an argument against it. Maybe those poor saps should be taken advantage of

ChizFoShiz wrote: No way I'm reading down this whole chain cause it looks scary kind of long, but I feel like chiming in.

I'm 100% with you FavoredSoul, the most disgusting part about this is authors were given an option to do something we couldn't before and it's been stripped away just because petulant people can't stand the thought of not having access to everything they "deserve".

That's all this boils down to, it's the same argument that was happening years ago over DLC, except this time you're hurting people who have shown nothing but incredible amounts of good-will to you for years instead of developers who are already being compensated.

And the worst part? Those who did want or try to be compensated are the ones being crucified as "greedy".

What's more greedy, asking for $0.99 for the project you've labored over for thousands of hours, or demanding that price shouldn't exist and I should get that for free because I always have before?

Because the answer seems pretty damn obvious to me.

I've only started to share my plugins in the last couple of years but with the way the audience around the internet in general have acted I doubt I'm going to bother in future and I'm seriously considering making my current files disappear.

jfisha wrote: ChizFoShiz

This thread is not nearly as long as some of the others.

You can do what you want, man. I can understand why you're pissed and if you feel that the community at large needs to be your punching bag, then do what you need to do. A ton of people were all for you guys doing what you wanted, some of us were supportive of you guys but didn't support your decision. If you feel the whole community at large deserves your hatred because you didn't get your way, so be it

d4rkoverlord wrote: Welcome to the internet, FavoredSoul, I use your ultimate assortment mod, and I've been very pleased with it, remember that for each one of those people who complain or give you hate for not getting what they want from you, there are lots of other people who really enjoy your work.

However, as this is internet, almost everything you post, do or say is subject to criticism, good or bad, constructive or destructive, but then again words are only that. If someone doesn't like your stuff, f*** it, do what you want to do with your stuff and only attend to what you consider important.

My final comment is towards the point of getting monetary reward for your mods:

Look I understand your point since mods take effort and time, but you have to understand that when you add money to the formula things must change because the hobbie must become a job/bussiness and as such people are going to demand more from you based on what they're paying and if you can't even take a few hate comments like a man now that there's no money involved, wait till you start charging people for your stuff.

BTW I dont know if your current occupation is related to graphic design or videogames production in general but I do think that with your talent you could be dedicating to that as a formal carreer, so if you're not already into that, you should focus on it instead of those "evil comments from those poisonous people" that torment you so much because that gives a lot more revenue than you could have gotten from that infamous 25%.

fullk0ntact wrote: I usually don't post on things like this because I can typically find better uses of my time, but on this comment in particular I feel inclined to do so. It seems to me that your post only focuses on the negatives of the community and not the positives. Being pessimistic in nature, this is rare for me to say, but it is so blatantly apparent here I felt the need to point it out. Not once in my entire time on the internet have I bashed a mod author for their work, even if I didn't like what they had made. I either gave my praise or I shut up and moved on.

Additionally, although I wasn't outspoken about this "paywall" issue, I did sign a petition against it. I didn't sign it because I was against mod authors charging for their mods, I signed it because a super-corporation wanted to take 75% of the mod author's hard earned money. Well, that's not the only reason, there was also mod stealing and absolutely 0 quality control for what was posted on the workshop in the paid mods section, but I think you get the point.

Boxilot wrote: The "should we pay for mods" argument went through the sims community like hot fire about five years ago now, too. When certain modders started to hide their content behind "donations" (in other words, you had to donate said amount to get their content).

The debate was long, it was hard. We got pirate sites. People were hacked. People were run out of their homes. Yeah hard to believe about the people who play sims of all things right?

Well people didn't like that what we were doing as a community was going to benefit a few select. We had modders who did it for fun, and we had modders who did it for gain. Needless to say it ended up with EA stepping in and now all mods are free. We can finally have a proper community again where things are done in the spirit of fun and community, not in the spirit of money and undercutting and entitled customers.

If you don't do it for fun and you feel you should be compansated (honestly, the idea that you feel you need to be compansated for CHOOSING to do a certain thing with your own game is absurd to me) then in my honest opinion I don't think you should continue. You're obviously not doing it because it brings enjoyment to you anymore.

I don't mod in the skyrim scene but I mod in the sims scene and I do it for fun. I do it because I feel like I want a certain thing in my game and then I share it with my friends because they might want it too. The concept of money wasn't even an idea before Beth and Valve came rushing in, yelling at the top of their voice. Now we have modders left right and center that feel they're owed something. That they deserve compansation for what they're creating.

People spend hundreds, thousands of hours writing fanfiction, do they demand pay for that? No. Why? Because they did it for fun. They don't expect to get compansated for doing something in the spirit of the community.

ChizFoShiz wrote: jfisha that's not even the point here, it's got nothing to do with "not getting my way", I didn't even take part, for me it's mostly about human decency.

Honestly the decision to ditch the system was disappointing but not exactly world shattering.

The hate and the entitlement of the userbase at large however is what's so soul-crushingly hurtful and is clearly what FavoredSoul is getting at too.

That harassment, the threats, the "You won't be missed" comments from ignorant people who've likely never even shared a thing with the community. It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them.

And to the people who have posted "you should expect hate" "get used to it" and the rest of this tripe, you clearly have never been on the receiving end of this behaviour, certainly not en masse, so maybe shut up? There *is* no "getting used" to threats from people you don't know, ever, because you've got no idea what's an 8 year old idiot half way across the globe and who's an unstable lunatic on the other side of town, get it into your skulls that this is NOT okay behaviour and that everyone, including you, needs to take a damn stand.

This is getting way too long and seems like I'm directing it all at you jfisha but it's really not. This whole debacle illustrates yet again the major problems with gaming culture and internet culture overall and that there needs to be some kind of major change here.

I'm tired of being an island in an ocean of pricks.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ChizFoShiz

Thanks chiz. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is very disappointing to think about what COULD have been, had the scheme continued. I would have certainly loved to invest a huge amount of my time and effort into new sets of mods. And its what Valve and Bethesda wanted. They wanted a financial incentive to induce people with real marketable skills to consider creating mods of the highest quality (when they otherwise would not have considered doing it) The less desirable emergence of opportunists, and the inevitable sea of mediocrity, an unfortunate but unavoidable side effect.

Rayek wrote: I've been around for awhile and experienced the trolls and unappreciative/expectant people. Even the horrid dislike button.

I agree it's a shame that people can't take the time to endorse mods to give the author a minor pat on the back...or leave a nice comment.

I agree the donate button won't solve much based on what I've seen in endorsement and donate trends.

I however disagree with your approach, it's no better than the people who are selfish, expectant to a modder and can't step back and look at it from another point of view.

I do mod for the "passion" of it, for the creative release, for the learning experience and for the hope that some others will get the same enjoyment out of what I created. 1, 2, 3 or 100 negative comments doesn't take away form those that do enjoy a mod.

To punish those who enjoy your mods by removing them cause others are jerks and don't is...for lack of a better word...childish.

I hope it's just frustration that's eating at you right now and you can look back and reconsider your stance, keep your mods up and move past this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @ChizFoShiz "It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them"
But is it okay if they pay, to share things with them?

Haters and stupid people will always exist. It will NEVER change. The best way is to ignore them and stay with the people that care. Those are the ones that move your ways, and fire up your passion for this thing called modding.

And funny, I get more s#*! and hate irl that on the internet. Here I come to escape from the hell that is my every day life. Don't say that you are the only one on the receiving end.

Xavathos wrote: FavoredSoul.

I feel you have become as bitter as the people you describe. You seem to forget the fact that the majority of people who speak out are the ones with the destructive attitude, because generally people do not go out of their way to say "thank you". Not because they are not grateful, but because it's hardly worth a post and you should know that your mods are useful and appreciated by simply watching the download counter.

When people make requests with a lack of respect, you don't need to respond or act upon said request in any way. If someone punched you in the face and then asked for a quarter to make a call, you wouldn't give it to him either, would you?

However, the vast majority of the community, even if it may not seem that way because they are not as... obnoxious as the destructive trolls, are people that are very much grateful for your mods, or any other mods for that matter and it's those people that would you punish by removing mods or stopping to make/update them.

If you think the trolls care, and you can get them back that way, I'm afraid you misunderstand them. They troll specifically because they do NOT care. Whatever you do, it doesn't affect them, it does affect us.

So I would kindly ask you to reconsider your position on this subject. Perhaps seek out your inner optimist and try to find the silver lining. All in all, you didn't start modding for nothing, right? Hold on to that, and trust in the part of the community that does care. Let go of all the hate and trolls, it will only turn you as bitter as they are. Don't let them win.

Halendia wrote: I suppose as I am an exception in most cases, but I've spent over $120 in donations total to the Nexus community authors, I go through my mod list frequently to endorse every mod I decide to permanently add to my collection, and/or a mod I feel is worthy but cannot keep. I have created mods, I've ~250 hours clocked in the CK, not a lot compared to others, but eh, it's +/-250 hours. I've spent countless hours battling comments sections, to either help defend and author or help troubleshoot. I've made patches for some mods in order to assist the author receiving more spotlight - asking for nothing in return.

I know for certain that I have donated to some of the authors that decided to add paywalls to their mods, Isoku is a good example. I donated more than he would have received had I bought his mods from the Workshop.

I AM ONE OF THOSE USERS, so what about me? I have EXPLICITLY gone out of my way to try make modding more fun by assisting/donating/contributing/encouraging authors, and also made a few measly mods by myself.

So what about me?

hafizlordfeast wrote: Ever heard the word "This is why we can't have nice things"? Yup, people who does amazing things will rarely get the gratitude they deserve, so it comes to how they handle it in the end, and I'm not just talk about modding, but everything there is to life. Sure it sucks to provide something to the people that is worse than animal out there, but if you can endure the internet abuse, without the need to give up, some people will be grateful as well.

You do have my thanks for providing some of the cool mods, that I used and maybe forget to endorse, and probably will donate if only the money differences ain't so contrast enough in their cost, between different countries, still don't have enough money you know, even if I do, I rather pay extensively if I want to donate something on the internet. Of course, we all know that most people are used to committed on being douche in the internet every day, instead of giving back something good.

I could not fathom how people could live a life of bullies everyday without the feeling of at least saying "Thank You". I know I wouldn't want to be friend with any of them, and rather just give each of them a good punch in the face, if I could. If only the computer will let me do that. But I do say this, thank you for the hard work you've done, even though you have received the treatment you don't deserve, we, half of the community who also stay behind the curtain, are grateful for your services over the five or so years.

ChizFoShiz wrote: My final line was to convey just how overwhelming the awful to normal ratio is on the internet, not to suggest that it's me vs the world.

That being said the fact that the internet is like that right now doesn't mean it should continue to be and it doesn't give people a free pass to let it.

If human beings just said "Well, that's the way it is!" every time something was wrong in society we'd never make progress, this is no different to any other societal problem and it needs a remedy.

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

It's noble to want to change the situation of the internet, but how do you suggest we remedy this?

Going back to medieval times, pick up our pitchforks and torches and "burn the trolls" signs? And if so, who would we burn? Everything is essentially anonymous.

Fact of the matter is, there have always been people like this since the beginning of time. Liars, cheaters, scammers, frauds, bullies, or criminals of any other kind. It's just in the last 30 years it's become much more apparent because of the way the internet and other media spread the beliefs of these trolls uncensored and without consequence to the person hiding behind a username.

And yeah, it's getting worse. But I ask you again, how do you think to remedy this?

Uranium - 235 wrote: @FavoredSoul

At the end of the day, the paywall scheme almost certainly was going to destroy collaboration, completely f*#@ up 'complementary' mods (ie: the 'recommended to use with this mod...' lists), and basically price everyone out of the ability to mod Skyrim even close to what they were used to, because with every crackpot modder thinking his product is worth 'just $4', a huge install would cost literally hundreds of dollars.

Regardless if the 'most profitable mods' were going to be stupid ugly Skeletor armor or not, introducing greed into the mix was going to severely change how modding for Gamebryo works, for the worse of everyone except the people profiting.

You were going to throw all that away for your own personal payday.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @Xavathos The more people that don't sit idly by and watch as people are abused, the less people are going to do it. I don't have a perfect solution, I doubt anyone does, of course there are still going to be people that do it, but change doesn't happen by sitting on your hands.

And no, this isn't a problem that's only just visible because of the way we communicate, it's exasperated by the way we communicate, I guarantee you the vast VAST majority of abusive behaviour online would not take place in a real world scenario because A. You are no longer anonymous/a screen name and B. You're probably within distance of people who are not going to just watch.

The ability to form a hate mob on the internet in recent years has gotten ridiculous and this is just one more example of it happening.

kai0 wrote: Good grace, please, just take a deep breath all. As a purely user of all the fantastic mods you have all created over the last years, i must say that i personally have been overjoyed with the diversity and availability you modders have brought to skyrims modding community.

In all i would like you users, people such as i, to ask yourself: what right do i have to blatently deny those who have laid many hours of work into content, which i enhance my experience of this game, some gratitude?
Certainly not all the content which has been made over the years deserves equal praise, but nontheless does it deserve it for being made.

Personally i feel that paid mods could have been a great initiative towards greater quality. I don't really understand the rage against the concept of paid mods. quality control would have come along quite naturally in the form of people buying the good mods, not the silly bad ones. Albeit the system on startup was pretty much rubbish. No content controll. Imo a 90% cut to the modders and 10% shared between valve and bethesda, combined with lower prices would have been a more realistic model. In the long rund Valve and Bethesda would have made money, and the modders would have made money equal to or greater than a donation with cuts.

FavoredSoul, know that i respect you for the content you have brought to the community. Content that i have used in more than a few playthroughs. Phantompally76's comment is harsh and wether the community would survive with or without you is irrelative, although you will surely be missed for the content you could have made.

This concerns the rest of you lot aswell! Know that people (in general) are very grateful for the content you have brought us.

To the rest: Show some fcking respect.

Bring the love back to Skyrim, love and Peace!

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

I agree wholeheartedly, and I too believe that something needs to be done. I just don't see how. Unfortunately it seems that the more we talk about it, the more attention we give it, the worse it gets.

darklordzelot wrote: It's not surprising what people commented. I mean this is the internet the one place where people can let out their inner evil without worrying about the consequences. And they will do exactly that because it's the way people work. I'm not saying everyone does it but most do.

Since these replies have become a bit to long to read them all I'm just gonna trow my 2c in.

I do agree with you on the fact lots of mod-users are just rubbish. They are part of the new internet society where everything on the internet is not only free, but has to completely correspond to our wants. But this does not mean every single mod-user is like this.
Don't you think that removing a mod will hurt those users who downloaded it and endorsed it and maybe even donated for it a lot more then those trolls and haters?

Also the biggest problem I and probably a lot of other people who did sign the petition had was not only the paying for the mod but the added complications for the future and the total lack of communication. As stated on nexus and other sites the fear was to see the whole community break and see all the quality mods go behind the paywall.
I understand modders wouldn't mind getting some money for their mods, but why did you even start making them? To improve your own game right? For fun on a game that you like playing?
Until last week people released a couple new mods and updates a day. All in the hope of someone donating? Or just because they liked it, wanted to please the players and in the best case even earn some cash for it...

I am not going to defend those retards giving death-treats to or insulting modders, but it did piss off quite some people when a couple of modders put themself in a victim role. And not a hate victim (that i agree with) but a money victim: 'I have always made mods for the love and fun of making them, but now after 5 years i realise you guys should've paid me for it'. So don't just pull your mods from nexus but just do like SkyUI did, keep everything that exists till this date free but make updates paid...

Lastly I still think donations are the way to go unless Bethesda and Valve come up with a solution to the QC and mod stealing.

Sorry for long post ;)

[Unilythe]

In response to post #24742594. #24742759, #24742849, #24742924, #24742934, #24743009, #24743059, #24743149, #24743254, #24743299, #24743359, #24743449, #24743474, #24743514, #24743524, #24743584, #24743604, #24743624, #24743724, #24743739, #24743769, #24743774, #24743884, #24743929, #24743984, #24744049, #24744139, #24744159, #24744279, #24744479, #24744519, #24744574, #24744719, #24744789, #24744794, #24744929, #24744964, #24744989, #24745004, #24745054, #24745174, #24745279, #24745339, #24745449, #24745494, #24745729, #24745734, #24745839, #24745939, #24746154, #24746294, #24746544, #24746674, #24746704, #24746719, #24747064, #24747169, #24747379, #24747459, #24747514, #24747554, #24747774 are all replies on the same post.

FavoredSoul wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: Sorry you feel that way FavoredSoul.

We'll survive with or without you.

We'll also probably be a lot more cautious with our praise and endorsements. And with our trust.

popcorn71 wrote: If your complaining about the hate being spewed on steam then why post files to the steam workshop? If Valve will not moderate their comment section and you don't like what people are saying about your mod then just don't use the workshop. Not that I'm excusing the tolls, but why put your self in a possession where you are subjected to their hate in the first place?

=== Edit ===
To clarify, I have not read ANYTHING on steam for several day. I currently have steam offline and firewalled. This all just seems too convenient to me and I don't really trust Valve right now.

Orgaya wrote: For what it's worth, I agree with you.

This whole experience has taught me that this modding community is a massive s#*! stain.

FavoredSoul wrote: Fact is, the trolls are everywhere, workshop or not. nexus sites just do a good job of throwing a cloth over it. But its still there underneath.

And you're right. I will delete all my stuff of the workshop cause it is just awful over there.

dunmermagic wrote: I'm sorry you feel that way, but most major modders were against this. If you had some trolls get on your nerves, well that sucks, and if you feel the need to take down your mods, that's your choice. But nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything. That's the way it's worked for 13 years, and it's worked out pretty well if I do say so myself.

jmenaru wrote: I agree with you 100% FavoredSoul. I never expected Bethesda to remove this just because of the negative backlash, but I guess I was wrong.

FavoredSoul wrote: @dunmermagic

"nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything"


My point entirely.

Mod-users are happy to use you and your mods while you're offering, and then just as happily ready to throw you away without second thought.

You know what that is an example of? Taking another human being for granted for your own selfish needs.

phantompally76 wrote: Bah, stop acting like you're a victim.

6 days ago, selling your mods was illegal.

Axeface wrote: I completely agree with everything you said favouredsoul. This farse has shown what this community can be, it's like a pit of vipers. One thing is certain, I am disgusted by this community now and I dont want anything to do with it.

Now, I havent done anything really noteworthy for skyrim (althought I did take a very long time and effort making my small mods), but I have done extensive modding in other games, thousands of hours. The steam change got me interested again - I started drawing, I loaded up zbrush. I for one was really excited by the steam change and the quality mods we would have seen from it. It needed to be tweaked because is wasnt done well, but overall I think we are really missing out - both authors and users.

"hahahahahahahahha. Its hard enough getting people to CLICK A BUTTON TO ENDORSE A MOD, you think for a second people are going to strain their finger to use a donate button to give me their 5c? Reality is right here buddy, where have you been living?"

This is so true. I looked at my mods stats on the workshop that has 90,000 current subscribers - most days I get 0 'likes', on 'spike' days where I get a lot of dls (like a few days ago with 400 subs) I got 3 likes. I dont care honestly, but it shows just how sincere this 'we like to donate!' argument is.

"Valve and Bethesda certainly fcuked things up, royally, for a long time to come. All I want to do is remove my mods cause at least half of the hateful, selfish people out there just don't deserve anything at all. "

I was about to remove my mods too. Obviously mine are nothing mods, not like yours, but one has almost 100,000 subs. I just dont feel like I want to be part of this community anymore now.

EDIT: I'm removing my mods, "phantompally76" and his comments has pushed me over the edge.

Orgaya wrote: @FavoredSoul

You're not alone with that. Have you seen other mod authors' pages that decided to use the system? It was a real gong show. Constant feedback of people acting like they are entitled to free content.

@Everyone Else

If this experience has taught us anything, it's that no one deserves free stuff. We certainly haven't proven it.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ phantompally76

If i'm acting like a victim its because you, just now, made me a victim. I am a victim of your hate.

So someone wants to make 50c on a future mod that WOULDNT HAVE EXISTED IF NOT FOR THE SCHEME.

Mod authors are, and always will be, victims of mod-user hate. The hate that has been written for mod-authors here. The hate that has been written for mod-authors on steam. The hate that you wrote against me just right now, and all of the hate yet to be written.

nbtc971 wrote: You act as though someone hired you for a job. It was your decision and own desire to mod, no one asked you or forced you. In addition, when you created your content, you had to think at the time that you were doing it for free, so, if you don't want to do it for free any longer, then don't do it. I can't really blame you for that.

Anyone who creates anything for public consumption has to know that lots of people are entitled jerks. If you didn't, then I'm sure that was quite the wake up call. I haven't read all the comments, I'm sure there are a lot of fools saying stupid stuff, but that's the world we live in. Some will choose to punish those who are grateful due to the comments of the lowest denominator and I think that sucks, but, I can't really complain about it because it's not my time and effort that's being taken to task.

jfisha wrote: I'm just going to throw this in there, but I've personally never complained or wrote s#*! about a mod author because their mods are free. You can't complain about something you're getting for free, right?

Of course, that's not true for everyone, but with a free mod if you hid somebodies comment or told them to "f off", I'd be right there with ya.

However, if I paid for your mod, you'll f'nng take it and like it. You're no longer a person putting up free content, you're like the telephone company now, and I'm a very nice person but the lady that answer's the phone there absolutely hates me.

SkepticalJoker wrote: FavoredSoul,

No one is forcing you to make mods. If it's not fun, then why the hell are you doing it? Find another hobby, for goodness sake! And yes, it IS a hobby. It always has been. Nothing has changed on that front. Valve and Bethesda tried to do exactly what you claim mod users are doing: Take advantage of you. They wanted you to labor, then sell your labor to users, and keep 75% of the proceeds. The only people that win are Valve and Bethesda. Mod users may use your labor by playtesting and enjoying your mods, but they aren't making a profit off your work either. They're not asking you to make mods that they can then sell, while kicking back a measly 25%.

This idea could have worked if the kickback was fair and there was some modicum of assurance to the consumers that mods would be properly curated. As it stood, mod authors were getting screwed, consumers were getting screwed, and the legality of it all was questionable to say the least. Valve and Bethesda did one thing right, and that was to shut this absurd experiment down.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

You speak wise words.

phantompally76 wrote: FavoredSoul, I don't hate you.

I'm just very disappointed with you.

I don't expect you to lose any sleep over that.

I'm not going to lose any sleep, either.

Orgaya wrote: That isn't what the complaint here is. It's this idea that modders should never be given the option to be paid because the mod-user is entitled to free content for no reason. This simply isn't true or fair. And it's wholly disrespectful and incredibly insensitive to treat those who are giving handouts like dogshit.

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is a rather minority stance here. I think you will find most people at the Nexus are in favour of the option to give back to those they want to give back to.

EDIT: Isn't it actually technicaly, probably illegal to be even having these conversations now Bethesda has pulled the rug?

jfisha wrote: I disagree, Orgaya.

We were given the content. That's not a feeling of entitlement.

If you and I were hanging out and I gave you one of my beers, I can't tell the rest of my friends that you're an entitled piece of crap because you took it.

Let's not forget that up until three days ago, most of us here thought all the mod authors were perfectly fine with the way things were going. We've been thriving for four years, for Christ's sake.

I don't think that point gets brought up enough

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

Its so flawed.

THE ENTIRE MODDING SCENE IS ABOUT CHOICE.

I make a choice to make mods.
People make a choice to consume them.
I make a choice to charge 50c for a particular mod...

Yeah, no one asked me to be a modder. In just the same way, nobody asked you to be a consumer.

I have a choice to charge 50c, you have a choice on whether or not to pay 50c.

What gives you the right to come along and say you may not charge 50c?

Orgaya wrote: @phantompally76

You're disappointed in him... because he wanted to be compensated for his work. Ugh. It's just a game. You don't need mods. Sorry. You don't. None of us do.

phantompally76 wrote: Orgaya, did you even read what you just typed?


I agree with you. We don't NEED mods.

We don't NEED to buy them, either.

BadYeti wrote: Now imagine having all those mod users as customers. Having to solve their insane issues because you accepted their money. :~O It's the stuff of nightmares.

digitaltrucker wrote: Indeed, once they've paid for it they DO become entitled at that point.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

I'm aware that a 75% cut for valve and Bethesda made those guys appear greedy to a lot of people, but at the end of the day, its for the mod-author to decide whether or not the contract is fair, not the consumer. The decision gets made when the choice is made on whether or not to sell. I know that there are a lot of people who were ok with paying mod-authors for their work, they just had a huge issue with paying valve/bethesda that 75% for doing nothing but facilitate the exchange. But um... that's how businesses operate. There is ALWAYS going to be a middleman.

I also think you are unaware of the volume of money that was actually being made by the paid mods scheme. Even with a measly 25% cut, the money being generated was PHENOMENAL.

That mod-author with the skull face armor being sold at 1.99 per unit? that made at least 2100 sales before it was taken down. That's 4179$ of which 25% was his for a total of 1044$. Even after losing a few % to fees, that's a damn LOT of money for a few days of sales.

If that was you making that money in 4 days, you wouldn't give a f- for 25%. You'd be more than happy to take what you got. Don't think for a second that if you were in a position to sell mods for that kind of money, that people wanted, you wouldn't leap at the chance.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ BadYeti

And it is because of this that this ecosystem of different memebrs of a community is so important and unique. Bet you it was a f'ing nightmare here when things started out... come to think of it, there are still many volatile situations. One thing the people who run this site have compared to Steam and Bethesda, is experience in dealing with the massively dynamic world of modding.

nbtc971 wrote: I didn't come along and say anything, because it's not my place, however Bethesda, in this case, did create the very tools you used to create your mod. They also created the game you are modding. Obviously they have the right to tell you if it's ok to profit from their work. I personally didn't make a single comment in favor or against the system. I did however listen and read opinions from my favorite youtubers and I felt like they made some valid points.

If a system can be put in that is fair to everyone, then fine. I don't think gaming companies and Valve should take 75% of the freakin profits! I also want assurances that the mod is going to work when I buy it and after any other updates. In addition, I would want any mod conflicts to be reconciled in a timely manner, or eliminated all together. Right now I just don't think modders are going to be able to provide the type of service required for a paid product. At least not with Skyrim. For it work, we might have to have a new system for the next game.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: My paid non-internet office job, which I make my living off of, is to listen to people complain all day.

If you can't handle a few trolls, then you shouldn't do anything involving the public. Everyone gets trolled. I was bullied as a kid but I grew from it. At least the people on your Steam page can't physically attack you.

You go on about entitlement, but you sound pretty entitled to the recognition of your mods. Mods get recognition on their merit of usefulness, not purely because you put a lot of effort into it (don't get me wrong, the fact that you put effort into it has merit too).

If you want to make money off of your artistic talents, make a game. I enjoyed webdesign and in a few work instances I made websites.

Don't try to make money off of an open source community. That's another thing, and it's quite an unethical thing.

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

A lot of people keep making that argument, that this system goes down the toilet when mods break, cause you've paid money and there must be assured of a certain level of quality assurance.

well, user review systems have always existed to inform users about the sensibility of product purchases. Why have people suddenly forgotten about this?

Secondly, the mods that would have gotten the most sales are the cosmetic ones, the weapons, armors and skin mods. These mods seldom break, and any mod-author with half a brain wouldn't upload something that didn't function.

There would have been plenty of opportunists popping up all over trying to make a quick buck off of broken/ half finished mods for sure, but that brings us back to the user review system. One negative review and that mod will be exposed, it'll get buried and life will go on.

Zink6 wrote: Going to be honest with u, what kind of bottled life have u been living? U want an internet without hate? Have u been using the internet for long? U think ur the only poor type of sap to be flamed at? Bud if u cant handle this much on the internet then u need to not only stop modding but stop using the internet.

As for ur reaction. Ur the same as the the ones flaming u. U give ur points in a sarcastic sense and poke fun at the arguments that people have presented. U bring no constructive criticism. U say how u hate half the people here yet for some reason expect love in return. Knowing all this u still bother to post this comment.

Like really man ur acting like such a child. Plz grow up. This is the internet, ppl talk s#*!, if ur famous in a sense, ur going to be asked to kill yourself (this is not ok but at the same time how u going to stop it). U need to learn to ignore those ppl and work with the admins to better police the site. That's as much as u can ask or expect. If u want anything more u can go dream about it in ur sleep because if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?

nbtc971 wrote: @FavoredSoul How does a negative review make someone forget they spent money for a broken mod? Most people will care more about their hard earned money being wasted than the opportunity to leave a negative review in the hopes that it destroys a mod author.

jad31te wrote: "if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?"

I dunno, actually mod the site and start banning trolls?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Just sit back and wait for SOPA.

jfisha wrote: "You're damn straight its a mod-user vs mod-author argument."

I'll keep reiterating this until I turn blue in the face. No, it is not. Why, you ask? Because there's some mod user's that agree with you, there's some that don't. There's some mod authors that agree with you, some that don't.

There are three sides to this argument.

People who think mods should always remain free (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who think mod authors should be allowed to make money (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who will pay for good mods, but think Valve just implemented a crappy system (includes mod authors and mod users)

pvbridgeford wrote: I understand the frustration you are feeling, I'm a new modder, just learning how to mod. I've posted some small mods and rather insignificant at best. The complaints are endless from a few bad eggs, but I'm 67 now and have learned to let the s#*! hit the fan and step out of it's way. I respond to positive comments, but refuse to respond to anyone that is not at least constructive in their negativity. I hope you find it in your future to continue the great work you have been doing and find a way to enjoy the modding community again. Until then I'M Keeping all your work I've downloaded in a safe place so i'll have access to it in the future when I get a new computer.

Thanks again for all your hard work.

savagemoonlight wrote: Aren't you putting yourself up for even more abuses if people were to pay for your mod? Hey I want this sword to be green. I want it to sparkle. Hey you better give in to my demands cause I've freaking PAID for you mod, you're obligated to do as I ask.

Truth is, self-entitled abusive arsehole will always be around and I'm sorry how they've made you so cynical but paid modding is definitely not a solution to this.

roland113 wrote: Well said FavoredSoul.

You nailed it on the head, all the common negatives mod creators get a lot of as they pour their hearts into work. The 1 or 2% of people who take the time to hit the endorse button and people who want to use it to extort their requests even through they keep coming back and downloading every update you do. There are always a few trolls and angry, immature weirdos out there who ruin any online community or game.

It's easy to put up with community crap when its a paid job and you've got people plunking down monthly subscription fees, DLC or other things. Its entirely another when you're basically sharing stuff for free that you're doing for the pure passion of it.

Online game communities always schism like this when big changes hit too. Even good people get all worked up into a froth, and misinformation spreads too. Tensions rise and things become as volatile as if things were red hot discussions on religion or politics. I've seen it time and time again in the industry, and I'm even going through some stuff like this at my day job right now. ugh. Make a change in an existing system and all hell breaks loose.

It's easy to get furious at the jackasses of the world - but when all is said and done - I hope you're still able to appreciate the good community people too.

I still love working with the good people here in the Nexus community who are for the most part really cool and enthusiastic. I've met a lot of nice modders and fans from around the globe, and made quite a few really nice people here. The letters/ videos/ posted art and the helpful suggestions I get really make all the difference for me when I'm modding. It keeps me motivated and from working in a vacuum, and makes it easier to strive to improve.

For me this is basically my nightly jam sessions, and my free time to do whatever work I want, the way I want. The haters - well if they start to cross the lines I just delete them from my boards or ignore them. As for Steam - i mostly stayed away from that from the start, and will continue to do so because its community has never been the same caliber the Nexus is.

viperony wrote: I feel for you and hate to see the trolls being mean to you for your mods! But know most of us who love your mods are here to support you even with the donation button and what not your work has made a lot of us happy and we see the amazing effort you had done and the love seen in your work. Please don't listen to the bad comments or feel down because of them they can go up a tree! Don't remove the mods just because they are getting to you.

}{ellKnight wrote: @Orgaya
I'd agree with you if Bethesda were competent enough to fix their own game and make a decent UI. This hasn't been the case for years.


@FavoredSoul
People will be dicks on the internet regardless of whether they pay you or get your stuff for free. I highly doubt you'll put up with less s#*! if they can also throw in the "but I paid you for this" argument on top of all the other ones when they demand you do a certain thing a certain way. Like I said, people will be dicks on the internet.

I'm not saying some modders didn't get flamed. It isn't the right thing to do, this much is obvious for most of us and when talking about this on the different forums I directed my disappointment at Valve and Bethesda, not at the modders. Reading people's thoughts about this stuff on the forums where trolling gets you banned pretty fast I noticed that other people did the same as I did: arguing in a civil manner, not flaming modders. Did some people post s#*! on the nexus? Yes... they but were also banned for it when reported by the the rest of the community. Did some people post s#*! on steam? Yes... but most of them are still there and encouraged by other trolls. If you think putting your mod behind a pay wall on SWS will make people less rude on the steam forums you're sorely mistaken. Not to mention that the SWS is horrible for hosting skyrim mods due to the way information is baked into the save game. It can royally screw over your game and this is not even accounting for the conflicts that can pop up as mods get updated. As a user you have no control over updates.



You guys can "thank" us all you want by calling us shitstains and other names... we've done this for the past 13 years for free and it has produced amazing results and we want to preserve that. We've uploaded mods and had to put up with selfish people just like everybody else. It sucks but you have to remember that most people don't feel that way, that most people really appreciate the work we put into this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @FavoredSoul You need to look at the big picture here. That mod you said, the skull armor one, making a LOT OF MONNEEYY, it's the perfect example of why this system will harm the modding scene.
Some may say that being paid for mods will encourage mod authors to make great effort and create wonderful mods. While I think that's true, it will be the minority.
This model Valve implemented, will be filled with half assed armors and weapons, mostly cosmetics, with 0 passion and effort. Just like the app store for android. Hundreds and hundreds of stupid crap, totally tasteless and dull games, etc. The good mods will be few. The majority of people will take advantage of the brainless consumers and make no effort whatsoever for their mods. Modders will start to think and make mods with money in mind, passion being minor. It will be like a paid job, with deadlines and such.
I never thought of modding as a paid job. FOR ME, this will ruin the spirit of modding.

The Sims modding scene was DESTROYED when money got involved. A lot of sites started to exploit this, making paid mods a regular thing. Thank god its getting better, slowly.

Anyways, thats my point of view.

jfisha wrote: ValtielCurse

Let's not forget those poor souls who are scared away from sites like the Nexus just because they might have to do something other then hit "subscribe" to get a mod. Even if there's awesome free armor that blows away anything on Steam Workshop for 2 bucks, they'll still blindly pay it.

I guess that's not really much of an argument against it. Maybe those poor saps should be taken advantage of

ChizFoShiz wrote: No way I'm reading down this whole chain cause it looks scary kind of long, but I feel like chiming in.

I'm 100% with you FavoredSoul, the most disgusting part about this is authors were given an option to do something we couldn't before and it's been stripped away just because petulant people can't stand the thought of not having access to everything they "deserve".

That's all this boils down to, it's the same argument that was happening years ago over DLC, except this time you're hurting people who have shown nothing but incredible amounts of good-will to you for years instead of developers who are already being compensated.

And the worst part? Those who did want or try to be compensated are the ones being crucified as "greedy".

What's more greedy, asking for $0.99 for the project you've labored over for thousands of hours, or demanding that price shouldn't exist and I should get that for free because I always have before?

Because the answer seems pretty damn obvious to me.

I've only started to share my plugins in the last couple of years but with the way the audience around the internet in general have acted I doubt I'm going to bother in future and I'm seriously considering making my current files disappear.

jfisha wrote: ChizFoShiz

This thread is not nearly as long as some of the others.

You can do what you want, man. I can understand why you're pissed and if you feel that the community at large needs to be your punching bag, then do what you need to do. A ton of people were all for you guys doing what you wanted, some of us were supportive of you guys but didn't support your decision. If you feel the whole community at large deserves your hatred because you didn't get your way, so be it

d4rkoverlord wrote: Welcome to the internet, FavoredSoul, I use your ultimate assortment mod, and I've been very pleased with it, remember that for each one of those people who complain or give you hate for not getting what they want from you, there are lots of other people who really enjoy your work.

However, as this is internet, almost everything you post, do or say is subject to criticism, good or bad, constructive or destructive, but then again words are only that. If someone doesn't like your stuff, f*** it, do what you want to do with your stuff and only attend to what you consider important.

My final comment is towards the point of getting monetary reward for your mods:

Look I understand your point since mods take effort and time, but you have to understand that when you add money to the formula things must change because the hobbie must become a job/bussiness and as such people are going to demand more from you based on what they're paying and if you can't even take a few hate comments like a man now that there's no money involved, wait till you start charging people for your stuff.

BTW I dont know if your current occupation is related to graphic design or videogames production in general but I do think that with your talent you could be dedicating to that as a formal carreer, so if you're not already into that, you should focus on it instead of those "evil comments from those poisonous people" that torment you so much because that gives a lot more revenue than you could have gotten from that infamous 25%.

fullk0ntact wrote: I usually don't post on things like this because I can typically find better uses of my time, but on this comment in particular I feel inclined to do so. It seems to me that your post only focuses on the negatives of the community and not the positives. Being pessimistic in nature, this is rare for me to say, but it is so blatantly apparent here I felt the need to point it out. Not once in my entire time on the internet have I bashed a mod author for their work, even if I didn't like what they had made. I either gave my praise or I shut up and moved on.

Additionally, although I wasn't outspoken about this "paywall" issue, I did sign a petition against it. I didn't sign it because I was against mod authors charging for their mods, I signed it because a super-corporation wanted to take 75% of the mod author's hard earned money. Well, that's not the only reason, there was also mod stealing and absolutely 0 quality control for what was posted on the workshop in the paid mods section, but I think you get the point.

Boxilot wrote: The "should we pay for mods" argument went through the sims community like hot fire about five years ago now, too. When certain modders started to hide their content behind "donations" (in other words, you had to donate said amount to get their content).

The debate was long, it was hard. We got pirate sites. People were hacked. People were run out of their homes. Yeah hard to believe about the people who play sims of all things right?

Well people didn't like that what we were doing as a community was going to benefit a few select. We had modders who did it for fun, and we had modders who did it for gain. Needless to say it ended up with EA stepping in and now all mods are free. We can finally have a proper community again where things are done in the spirit of fun and community, not in the spirit of money and undercutting and entitled customers.

If you don't do it for fun and you feel you should be compansated (honestly, the idea that you feel you need to be compansated for CHOOSING to do a certain thing with your own game is absurd to me) then in my honest opinion I don't think you should continue. You're obviously not doing it because it brings enjoyment to you anymore.

I don't mod in the skyrim scene but I mod in the sims scene and I do it for fun. I do it because I feel like I want a certain thing in my game and then I share it with my friends because they might want it too. The concept of money wasn't even an idea before Beth and Valve came rushing in, yelling at the top of their voice. Now we have modders left right and center that feel they're owed something. That they deserve compansation for what they're creating.

People spend hundreds, thousands of hours writing fanfiction, do they demand pay for that? No. Why? Because they did it for fun. They don't expect to get compansated for doing something in the spirit of the community.

ChizFoShiz wrote: jfisha that's not even the point here, it's got nothing to do with "not getting my way", I didn't even take part, for me it's mostly about human decency.

Honestly the decision to ditch the system was disappointing but not exactly world shattering.

The hate and the entitlement of the userbase at large however is what's so soul-crushingly hurtful and is clearly what FavoredSoul is getting at too.

That harassment, the threats, the "You won't be missed" comments from ignorant people who've likely never even shared a thing with the community. It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them.

And to the people who have posted "you should expect hate" "get used to it" and the rest of this tripe, you clearly have never been on the receiving end of this behaviour, certainly not en masse, so maybe shut up? There *is* no "getting used" to threats from people you don't know, ever, because you've got no idea what's an 8 year old idiot half way across the globe and who's an unstable lunatic on the other side of town, get it into your skulls that this is NOT okay behaviour and that everyone, including you, needs to take a damn stand.

This is getting way too long and seems like I'm directing it all at you jfisha but it's really not. This whole debacle illustrates yet again the major problems with gaming culture and internet culture overall and that there needs to be some kind of major change here.

I'm tired of being an island in an ocean of pricks.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ChizFoShiz

Thanks chiz. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is very disappointing to think about what COULD have been, had the scheme continued. I would have certainly loved to invest a huge amount of my time and effort into new sets of mods. And its what Valve and Bethesda wanted. They wanted a financial incentive to induce people with real marketable skills to consider creating mods of the highest quality (when they otherwise would not have considered doing it) The less desirable emergence of opportunists, and the inevitable sea of mediocrity, an unfortunate but unavoidable side effect.

Rayek wrote: I've been around for awhile and experienced the trolls and unappreciative/expectant people. Even the horrid dislike button.

I agree it's a shame that people can't take the time to endorse mods to give the author a minor pat on the back...or leave a nice comment.

I agree the donate button won't solve much based on what I've seen in endorsement and donate trends.

I however disagree with your approach, it's no better than the people who are selfish, expectant to a modder and can't step back and look at it from another point of view.

I do mod for the "passion" of it, for the creative release, for the learning experience and for the hope that some others will get the same enjoyment out of what I created. 1, 2, 3 or 100 negative comments doesn't take away form those that do enjoy a mod.

To punish those who enjoy your mods by removing them cause others are jerks and don't is...for lack of a better word...childish.

I hope it's just frustration that's eating at you right now and you can look back and reconsider your stance, keep your mods up and move past this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @ChizFoShiz "It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them"
But is it okay if they pay, to share things with them?

Haters and stupid people will always exist. It will NEVER change. The best way is to ignore them and stay with the people that care. Those are the ones that move your ways, and fire up your passion for this thing called modding.

And funny, I get more s#*! and hate irl that on the internet. Here I come to escape from the hell that is my every day life. Don't say that you are the only one on the receiving end.

Xavathos wrote: FavoredSoul.

I feel you have become as bitter as the people you describe. You seem to forget the fact that the majority of people who speak out are the ones with the destructive attitude, because generally people do not go out of their way to say "thank you". Not because they are not grateful, but because it's hardly worth a post and you should know that your mods are useful and appreciated by simply watching the download counter.

When people make requests with a lack of respect, you don't need to respond or act upon said request in any way. If someone punched you in the face and then asked for a quarter to make a call, you wouldn't give it to him either, would you?

However, the vast majority of the community, even if it may not seem that way because they are not as... obnoxious as the destructive trolls, are people that are very much grateful for your mods, or any other mods for that matter and it's those people that would you punish by removing mods or stopping to make/update them.

If you think the trolls care, and you can get them back that way, I'm afraid you misunderstand them. They troll specifically because they do NOT care. Whatever you do, it doesn't affect them, it does affect us.

So I would kindly ask you to reconsider your position on this subject. Perhaps seek out your inner optimist and try to find the silver lining. All in all, you didn't start modding for nothing, right? Hold on to that, and trust in the part of the community that does care. Let go of all the hate and trolls, it will only turn you as bitter as they are. Don't let them win.

Halendia wrote: I suppose as I am an exception in most cases, but I've spent over $120 in donations total to the Nexus community authors, I go through my mod list frequently to endorse every mod I decide to permanently add to my collection, and/or a mod I feel is worthy but cannot keep. I have created mods, I've ~250 hours clocked in the CK, not a lot compared to others, but eh, it's +/-250 hours. I've spent countless hours battling comments sections, to either help defend and author or help troubleshoot. I've made patches for some mods in order to assist the author receiving more spotlight - asking for nothing in return.

I know for certain that I have donated to some of the authors that decided to add paywalls to their mods, Isoku is a good example. I donated more than he would have received had I bought his mods from the Workshop.

I AM ONE OF THOSE USERS, so what about me? I have EXPLICITLY gone out of my way to try make modding more fun by assisting/donating/contributing/encouraging authors, and also made a few measly mods by myself.

So what about me?

hafizlordfeast wrote: Ever heard the word "This is why we can't have nice things"? Yup, people who does amazing things will rarely get the gratitude they deserve, so it comes to how they handle it in the end, and I'm not just talk about modding, but everything there is to life. Sure it sucks to provide something to the people that is worse than animal out there, but if you can endure the internet abuse, without the need to give up, some people will be grateful as well.

You do have my thanks for providing some of the cool mods, that I used and maybe forget to endorse, and probably will donate if only the money differences ain't so contrast enough in their cost, between different countries, still don't have enough money you know, even if I do, I rather pay extensively if I want to donate something on the internet. Of course, we all know that most people are used to committed on being douche in the internet every day, instead of giving back something good.

I could not fathom how people could live a life of bullies everyday without the feeling of at least saying "Thank You". I know I wouldn't want to be friend with any of them, and rather just give each of them a good punch in the face, if I could. If only the computer will let me do that. But I do say this, thank you for the hard work you've done, even though you have received the treatment you don't deserve, we, half of the community who also stay behind the curtain, are grateful for your services over the five or so years.

ChizFoShiz wrote: My final line was to convey just how overwhelming the awful to normal ratio is on the internet, not to suggest that it's me vs the world.

That being said the fact that the internet is like that right now doesn't mean it should continue to be and it doesn't give people a free pass to let it.

If human beings just said "Well, that's the way it is!" every time something was wrong in society we'd never make progress, this is no different to any other societal problem and it needs a remedy.

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

It's noble to want to change the situation of the internet, but how do you suggest we remedy this?

Going back to medieval times, pick up our pitchforks and torches and "burn the trolls" signs? And if so, who would we burn? Everything is essentially anonymous.

Fact of the matter is, there have always been people like this since the beginning of time. Liars, cheaters, scammers, frauds, bullies, or criminals of any other kind. It's just in the last 30 years it's become much more apparent because of the way the internet and other media spread the beliefs of these trolls uncensored and without consequence to the person hiding behind a username.

And yeah, it's getting worse. But I ask you again, how do you think to remedy this?

Uranium - 235 wrote: @FavoredSoul

At the end of the day, the paywall scheme almost certainly was going to destroy collaboration, completely f*#@ up 'complementary' mods (ie: the 'recommended to use with this mod...' lists), and basically price everyone out of the ability to mod Skyrim even close to what they were used to, because with every crackpot modder thinking his product is worth 'just $4', a huge install would cost literally hundreds of dollars.

Regardless if the 'most profitable mods' were going to be stupid ugly Skeletor armor or not, introducing greed into the mix was going to severely change how modding for Gamebryo works, for the worse of everyone except the people profiting.

You were going to throw all that away for your own personal payday.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @Xavathos The more people that don't sit idly by and watch as people are abused, the less people are going to do it. I don't have a perfect solution, I doubt anyone does, of course there are still going to be people that do it, but change doesn't happen by sitting on your hands.

And no, this isn't a problem that's only just visible because of the way we communicate, it's exasperated by the way we communicate, I guarantee you the vast VAST majority of abusive behaviour online would not take place in a real world scenario because A. You are no longer anonymous/a screen name and B. You're probably within distance of people who are not going to just watch.

The ability to form a hate mob on the internet in recent years has gotten ridiculous and this is just one more example of it happening.

kai0 wrote: Good grace, please, just take a deep breath all. As a purely user of all the fantastic mods you have all created over the last years, i must say that i personally have been overjoyed with the diversity and availability you modders have brought to skyrims modding community.

In all i would like you users, people such as i, to ask yourself: what right do i have to blatently deny those who have laid many hours of work into content, which i enhance my experience of this game, some gratitude?
Certainly not all the content which has been made over the years deserves equal praise, but nontheless does it deserve it for being made.

Personally i feel that paid mods could have been a great initiative towards greater quality. I don't really understand the rage against the concept of paid mods. quality control would have come along quite naturally in the form of people buying the good mods, not the silly bad ones. Albeit the system on startup was pretty much rubbish. No content controll. Imo a 90% cut to the modders and 10% shared between valve and bethesda, combined with lower prices would have been a more realistic model. In the long rund Valve and Bethesda would have made money, and the modders would have made money equal to or greater than a donation with cuts.

FavoredSoul, know that i respect you for the content you have brought to the community. Content that i have used in more than a few playthroughs. Phantompally76's comment is harsh and wether the community would survive with or without you is irrelative, although you will surely be missed for the content you could have made.

This concerns the rest of you lot aswell! Know that people (in general) are very grateful for the content you have brought us.

To the rest: Show some fcking respect.

Bring the love back to Skyrim, love and Peace!

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

I agree wholeheartedly, and I too believe that something needs to be done. I just don't see how. Unfortunately it seems that the more we talk about it, the more attention we give it, the worse it gets.

darklordzelot wrote: It's not surprising what people commented. I mean this is the internet the one place where people can let out their inner evil without worrying about the consequences. And they will do exactly that because it's the way people work. I'm not saying everyone does it but most do.

pantera160 wrote: Since these replies have become a bit to long to read them all I'm just gonna trow my 2c in.

I do agree with you on the fact lots of mod-users are just rubbish. They are part of the new internet society where everything on the internet is not only free, but has to completely correspond to our wants. But this does not mean every single mod-user is like this.
Don't you think that removing a mod will hurt those users who downloaded it and endorsed it and maybe even donated for it a lot more then those trolls and haters?

Also the biggest problem I and probably a lot of other people who did sign the petition had was not only the paying for the mod but the added complications for the future and the total lack of communication. As stated on nexus and other sites the fear was to see the whole community break and see all the quality mods go behind the paywall.
I understand modders wouldn't mind getting some money for their mods, but why did you even start making them? To improve your own game right? For fun on a game that you like playing?
Until last week people released a couple new mods and updates a day. All in the hope of someone donating? Or just because they liked it, wanted to please the players and in the best case even earn some cash for it...

I am not going to defend those retards giving death-treats to or insulting modders, but it did piss off quite some people when a couple of modders put themself in a victim role. And not a hate victim (that i agree with) but a money victim: 'I have always made mods for the love and fun of making them, but now after 5 years i realise you guys should've paid me for it'. So don't just pull your mods from nexus but just do like SkyUI did, keep everything that exists till this date free but make updates paid...

Lastly I still think donations are the way to go unless Bethesda and Valve come up with a solution to the QC and mod stealing.

Sorry for long post ;)

I can't understand how someone could not agree with what FavoredSoul wrote here. The internet is a vile place, even on the Nexus sometimes. I've seen my fair share of hateful, entitled, demanding nonsense thrown at mod authors here on the Nexus. Clearly that happens. I'm not sure how you could disagree with that - it's a fact.

As for mods being paid - I think most people were against the way Valve and Bethesda handled it, and also against the fact that already existing mods became paid. If there were only new mods on there, Valve and Bethesda had communicated this entire thing better, and the cut to the mod author was higher, I don't think there would have been an outrage like this.
Now there are people who legitimately complained about mod authors "selling out". Screw those people. If mod authors want to get paid for some of their mods, sure. It's worked for other games. People put in a lot of work in a mod sometimes, so if they want to get paid 50 freaking cents or maybe even a dollar for it then why the hell not?

[KChan]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509, #24742524, #24742564, #24742579, #24742634, #24742744, #24742799, #24742804, #24742964, #24743039, #24743319, #24743439, #24743614, #24743699, #24743779, #24743799, #24743809, #24743899, #24743969, #24744239, #24744704, #24746029 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.

foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"

I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.

digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.

Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.

By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.

We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.

foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"

This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they should

Korodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.

Before this all happened of course :P

EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...

rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?

phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.

No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......

I don't owe you anything.

And you don't owe me anything.

That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.

Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.

I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.

I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>

sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic

But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.

The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.

foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.

Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.

You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).

Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.

flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic

IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.

Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.

It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."

People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.

Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.

Bye I guess.

-nlm (-.-) mln-

foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."

And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.

sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?

Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.

foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).

rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.

flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?

flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster

Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.

@ Korodic

apologies

phantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.

If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.

I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.

And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.

so get. off. your. high. horse.

foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres

WarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.

Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.

Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.

That is my take on it, hate me if you will.

Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.

From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.

A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.

This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.

Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.

foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much to

jet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.

foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?

jfisha wrote: Korodic,

Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?

Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God

phantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"

I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.

And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.

But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.

But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.

Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.

Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!

OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl

I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?

You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?

A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).

I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.

uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.

foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?

BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."

You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.

There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.

While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.

There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.

When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.

Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5

This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.

I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.

foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."

this says it all.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.

foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorry

fftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God"

I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.

IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.

Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.

I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.

I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.

Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.

RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.

Don't cross my people.

phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.

Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.

We done?

foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "


I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlash

Korodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?

On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.

Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."

Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.

But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.

MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5

My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.

Ventry wrote: @foster xbl

Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?

If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.

Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."


Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?

Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.

The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.

jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.

I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.

Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.

foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"

the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"

It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).

jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?

Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745

What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.

If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.

I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.

I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.

WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.

Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.

Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step

Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.

Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.

foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again

second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.

700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kit

phantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?

NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.

You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.

Am I getting through to you at all?

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.

Ventry wrote: @foster

and I applaud you.

do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.

Can you see the damage it did?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.

Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.

This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?

fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.

foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76

you got through to me with your very first post trust me

now let me try one last time to get through to you.

The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)

Kodoric

Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.

But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.

phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "

I agree 100%.

I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.

Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen.

Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.

Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.

WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.

jfisha wrote: Foster

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods

True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.

YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods

This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.

Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods

Ummm... they made the game?


Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.

Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :P

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.

So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:

Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.

If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.

Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profits

anonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.

No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.

Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".

The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.

Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".

Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.

That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.

Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.

Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?

Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.

For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.

Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.

Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.

If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.

And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.

MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70%-75% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.

Psijonica wrote: The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.

Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.

Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.

Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.

The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.

Free modding 4-ever.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Robok Agreed

Unless there is some confusion I am just debating paying for mods in general not just Skyrim mods. Skyrim should really have been left alone as it has been out for years and years.

In general topic however, everything created is somewhat based off of something else so that topic is kind of a slippery slope to use in a debate.

BadYeti wrote: It saddens me to see this bridge burning by mod authors even in the aftermath. The monetizing is gone but the well is already poisoned. :(

EnaiSiaion wrote: When mod authors are allowed to profit from their work, people will mod ONLY for money.

Have you looked at your phone's app store lately? The Porkshop was meant to be exactly this model. Given the "quality" of the first wave of mods, which were all Jim f*#@ing Sterling Son level bad except for SkyUI, it is not a stretch to see a future where anyone actually attempting to use the system for its intended purpose and offer advanced mods would get drowned in a deluge of s#*! designed to make precisely $400.

Lateraliss wrote: Warfighter, it's already been like that for years. There are modders who removed their mods from Nexus because of conflicts with the community. There have been modders that removed their mods from Nexus because people weren't worshiping them enough. It's an endless cycle. The point is there is always someone else that comes along and makes a great mod that replaces what we lost.

My belief if once a person decides that money is more important than the hobby, they focus instead on what can make them the most money instead of what would make the best quality, and that's what will end up destroying the modding community. Hundreds of low quality paid mods coming out like an assembly line. Why work on one huge mod that will get you 5 bucks when you can create 100 retextures in the same amount of time and sell them for 99 cents each.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: It looks like you don't understand my position, and I don't understand yours, so I will bow out of this discussion as I don't think anything productive will come out of it.

I will parrot the sentiment of another poster, that at least one good thing will come out of this mess: it will cull the modding community of certain types of individuals. And as history has shown, when one modder leaves, it doesn't take long for another to take their place.

Having said that, you should be thanked for what you have given to the community thus far, and I wish you well in your future endeavors.

jfisha wrote: @foster xbl

I guess that's where we're getting off track then. You're allowed to profit with your mod, I don't care.

However, I think you're complaining about this on the wrong forum. Steam is where all the death threats and really bad vitriol was coming from. Sure, there's been some here but for the most part, it's been cordial. Hell, look at Chesko's Frostfall comments. It's an over whelming amount of support.

What's confusing me is why are you on a site that has repeatedly stated it will never charge for mods and is committed to making sure the mods here remain free, complaining about why you can't charge for mods? We're all friends here and all, but I just don't get it. Go after those little bastards on Steam

Inky84 wrote: i dont know about the other people but jfisha is right.. i have no problem paying or donating to YOU but the way valve and beth set it up. you would prolly not see a dime. 25% is outrageous. plus the fact that your mods would just end up on pirates bay makes it more likely. i think that if nexus made a wallet similar to steam. (reason for this is cause i have a life too and i cant go to my paypal everytime and wonder/be worried if i can donate every time i like a mod.) that said.. i also think that donate button should also be in a better place both on nexus and steam. that way when they see it..it gives them a sense of morality.

just a thought =)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Developers will sell just the sdk on its own before long then say, make your your own goddam games! Ha :)

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I'm going after no-one.
I'm here because this is where I post my content
(I have some items on steam, but always with a direct link to the updated version here on the nexus, and even then only like 11 of my mods were posted there)
I couldn't care less about the children on the steam community,
This is where a posted my work
This is where I read the uproar over paid mods
This is where I read the attacks on authors
This is where I read the praise for the program being shut down
This is where I wanted to post my views

sunshinenbrick wrote: There has been a lot of praise for author's as well.

EDIT: Might I add that a lot of the other parts of the community have been more or less forgotten about. Debugging, Moderating, Testing, Troubleshooting, Programming, 3d Modelling, Boris (he is in a class of his own), All the other tool makers and "external" content creators that contribute their work.

Kudos to you all.

jfisha wrote: @foster xbl

I'm not trying to shew you away. I guess we're just reading different mod authors comments.

This was a small battle between two ways of thinking. Your side lost, for now, but what I'm just trying to reiterate to you is that some of us... scratch, that; a lot of us understand perfectly well what you want and while we disagree, I can't hold it against you. Making money doing something you like? That's the f*#@in dream!

Here's an idea; why don't we just discuss ways where perhaps we can meet in the middle?

Lordkabal26 wrote: Bethesda should man up and allow Mod Creators to setup Patreon pages. Currently Bethesda doesn't allow those sorts of donation pages where the donation page is for the mod or mod team they only allow personal donations.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Such a key point, totally agree!!

theblueshark wrote:
funny thing is, I voted against the paid mod because valve is gets a bigger share than the modder.. just saying...

CaughtInTheCrossfire wrote: The paid model was unsuccessful. You may have made some awesome mods but if people don't want to pay for them, that isn't bullying, abuse or trolling. That's the market at work.

...and I'm sick of the youtube analogy. Modding and youtubing aren't equivalent. Youtubers may be making money but no one is charging the viewers anything to consume their product.

digitaltrucker wrote: I've said it before and I'll sat it again:

All Bethesda would have had to do to begin with was remove the 'mods must be free' clause from the CK. It would have changed absolutely NOTHING for them, and the ball would be squarely in our court. I have confidence the market would sort it out, most likely by just adding a pay extension to the system already in place.

Utterly simple, and I find it hard to believe that between TWO well established successful companies nobody considered it.

YngvieMalmsteen wrote: Korodic, i have 2000 hours playing chivalry medieval warfare, because i enjoy it. i didnt get any money from doing it, but i dont regret it, because i enjoyed doing it. people mod because they enjoy doing it. if you didnt enjoy the 2000 hours you spent in the creation kit like i enjoyed the 2000 hours ive spent in chivalry medieval warfare, you making more money than i have doing it since you got one donation, then why did you do it in the first place if it wasnt to make money?

EnaiSiaion wrote: Yes, when you dangle money in front of people and then take it away, they feel they missed out on something.

foster xbl wrote: "
...and I'm sick of the youtube analogy. Modding and youtubing aren't equivalent. Youtubers may be making money but no one is charging the viewers anything to consume their product. "


Sick of it or not....if you're making money from the videos you create which showcase Skyrim mods....you're making money from Skyrim mods... how is this different?

Anyways, said enough on the matter. The two sides of this debate aren't going to change the other minds.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Google are in all sorts of grey area on this with pretty much everything. But they are rich and powerful.

hafizlordfeast wrote: You do realize the issue of paid mods are so many? So you are saying that copycat mods deserve to get paid? Do you think mods that are clearly not official DLC's that could broke the game, without Bethesda's support, deserve to be paid? Do you even think buggy mods deserve to be paid?

Donation is the only way to provide the payment gratitude the modders deserve. That's the only creative motivation that he or she will need, for financial reason. You know that YouTube doesn't give you money out of nowhere, right?

If you care enough about the modders to be paid, why don't you give them the money they deserve, because I know not all of us are rich people who can just give people ten dollars on every mod we want to get? I guess you are then? We expect free mods so we get free mods, and you already know the downside of having a mod in the first place, bugs and conflict, and you want us to pay for that?

We won't complain about the paywall if there's no problem to mods in the first place. Why don't you at least THINK before spouting your naive nobility towards all of us. It's not as simple to contribute to modders as if we are rich men. It is Bethesda and Valve responsibility to actually give financial help to them in the first place, not us, and they even get the most cut instead of modders. You think that's fair?

For the love of god, if you want to help them so much, GIVE them money, more money because they deserve it. Are you capable enough to do that or you're just ordering us to do what you want us to do?: Pay them, pay them all. I don't, because I don't have the luxury of giving them monthly salary, they modders know what they are doing is not a job, its a hobby, no matter how hard the hobby is.

If they feel it isn't enough for financial benefits, go find a job, or better yet, go find a job at Bethesda. We don't want to pay for mods because we know the positive and negative of mods, some weights the other. Common sense that should be implemented in your brain before commenting this naivety.

Wolvenlight wrote: I'll start off by saying I am not a content creator, not a modder, not an uploader. The most I've ever done was make UT2k4 maps, and I only released those among friends. I've always wanted to try modding Skyrim, but I've never had the time.

I do, however, download and browse the mods on this site constantly. It amazes me how much time, energy, work, and skill people have put into modding. And I'm glad for it. As a strict consumer, do I want to have to pay money for something cool I see and want? No, who does? Do I think people should be compensated for their work if they so choose to? Yes, who wouldn't? And if it was good enough, sure, I'd pay for a few if the prices were fair. I'd decide whether they were or not for myself.

Many people here are throwing gentle insults at each other in the form of calling people entitled hypocrites. Much of the time, both these words are being used incorrectly. Hypocrites means saying you have convictions but you actually don't, or saying something and then doing the opposite. Downloading free mods but charging for yours? Not hypocrisy. (That would be pirating paid mods but trying to charge for yours.) Entitled means thinking you deserve special treatment. Consumers who want modding to remain "pure" aren't these things, because they want that for everyone. Modders who would like to be paid are not automatically these things, as they would want these things for everyone, and they'd work in a free market, so the people would choose whether or not they want to pay for their work. If they don't, they'd lower the price, or make it free. Some consumers here, however, seem to believe that modding should always be free, and that those who want payment are greedy.

That's the real hypocrisy.

If someone makes a mod and wants to charge for it, that is their work and their prerogative. If someone doesn't want to pay for it, that is also their prerogative. So far, nobody is entitled, nobody is a hypocrite, and nobody is greedy (unless they're obviously overcharging.)

The second a consumer demands that the mods always be free, that is greed. *On the part of the consumer.* Sorry, but it most likely is. A modder could spend ten thousand hours on something and release it for free while another spends the same amount of time expecting payment. Neither are in the wrong. What's wrong is thinking one get's to dictate how another spends their own time. Paid content providers don't need your input, just like you don't need to buy their mod in the first place. They weren't demanding anything. But the consumers who shouted at them for wanting payment? They were the ones making demands, demands I would argue were born from greed. If not greed, then illogical thinking.

That's not the same as those consumers who are afraid of what paid mods could bring. It's a legitimate fear to have that quality modding might drop off if people don't have access to the utility of an open source environment. Not being able to afford all the mods you'd want is also a good fear to have. I would like the modding scene to remain free, because I like free mods. Tropical Skyrim for 0 dollars? Yes please! (Soolie pls update?) Would I pay for it? Actually, I very well might have thrown a dollar his way if I needed to do so to access it. I doubt Boris would charge $49.99 for his content, (seriously, that's such an exaggeration I'd call it fear mongering if I'd heard it from Fox News.) If that were the case, someone would come along with something similar for cheaper/free, or he'd lower the price himself once sales dropped off.

All of that isn't really my point though. In the end, if you're afraid of where this could go, say so. And if you're going to point out flaws, be sure to point out the right ones. Preferably the one's you aren't guilty of yourselves.

As for the content creators here. Don't worry about the vitriol that the loud vocal minority are throwing your way. You all have many more silent supporters (or filthy neutrals,) who actually know how to keep a level head, even if we disagree with you. I don't think you're greedy, I don't think you're hypocrites, I don't think you're entitled. The only thing I think you should do is update the Tropical Overhaul Mod.

I mean, uh. Keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. That one.

Alright, a lot of people are missing some important pieces of this puzzle. We're all getting worked up over our various perspectives and conflicting ideas of what's right or wrong as far as modding is concerned, but most people aren't really stopping to think about each other.

Forget the trolls, forget the people that have unfair expectations or feel that they're deserving of everything you've got and want to have it for free.

What happened to our community? The very fact we're sitting here fuming, arguing and getting upset about this situation should very clearly demonstrate that the whole thing was/is/will be a farce. The mere presence of this system ignited a spark that burnt lines between us and separated us.

People are more than owed something in gratitude for their work, but to what extent? What's worth our money? Is what you made really worth so much? At the same time, for the other side, do you really feel that something they made is worth so little?

Those questions underlie a core problem with the idea of monetizing mods. Who's to say what you made is really worth what you want for it? Yeah, sure, Falskaar would be more than worth the cost of a hamburger, but I can't compare the cost of my next meal to the value of a digital sword that someone threw together just because they can make a few dollars off of it.

I understand that we could all very well be living under hardship, and that this modding could give you that little extra that could let you eat decent food or pay for a tank of gas. If what you made is of a sufficient quality that I feel you deserve it, I'm more than willing to drop $20 on you as a way of saying "thank you." I didn't even realize it was an OPTION until there was a mention of it in the news, and I'm sure many others didn't realize it either.

However, we're all getting caught up in the stress and the drama, and it's keeping us from remembering some of the more important people.

I guarantee you that the people so vocal in complaining in either direction aren't the ones that should be viewed as important. The vitriol spewed back and forth proves that they aren't worth a second of our attention. The ones who are important, the ones sitting back and watching what we all love burn, are often the ones who are silent during all of this.

Can you honestly say that there are none who truly appreciate what you do, or what you've done? Do you honestly feel that way? I'll say that, without all of you, Skyrim would be nothing to me. So, why do you forget those of us who really care, when faced with such criticism? I'm sure many of the people who download these mods, enjoy playing these mods, and subscribe to these mods really do appreciate what you've done.

In the end, both sides really do seem to be missing the point in all this. I would love to see you all compensated, but this isn't the way to do it. I'd have no problem paying for some of these mods, but not like this. The flaws with this system are too obvious, and the outcry that has resulted should prove that without my barely coherent rambling.

[CptnBrryCrnch]

In response to post #24742594. #24742759, #24742849, #24742924, #24742934, #24743009, #24743059, #24743149, #24743254, #24743299, #24743359, #24743449, #24743474, #24743514, #24743524, #24743584, #24743604, #24743624, #24743724, #24743739, #24743769, #24743774, #24743884, #24743929, #24743984, #24744049, #24744139, #24744159, #24744279, #24744479, #24744519, #24744574, #24744719, #24744789, #24744794, #24744929, #24744964, #24744989, #24745004, #24745054, #24745174, #24745279, #24745339, #24745449, #24745494, #24745729, #24745734, #24745839, #24745939, #24746154, #24746294, #24746544, #24746674, #24746704, #24746719, #24747064, #24747169, #24747379, #24747459, #24747514, #24747554, #24747774, #24747799 are all replies on the same post.

FavoredSoul wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: Sorry you feel that way FavoredSoul.

We'll survive with or without you.

We'll also probably be a lot more cautious with our praise and endorsements. And with our trust.

popcorn71 wrote: If your complaining about the hate being spewed on steam then why post files to the steam workshop? If Valve will not moderate their comment section and you don't like what people are saying about your mod then just don't use the workshop. Not that I'm excusing the tolls, but why put your self in a possession where you are subjected to their hate in the first place?

=== Edit ===
To clarify, I have not read ANYTHING on steam for several day. I currently have steam offline and firewalled. This all just seems too convenient to me and I don't really trust Valve right now.

Orgaya wrote: For what it's worth, I agree with you.

This whole experience has taught me that this modding community is a massive s#*! stain.

FavoredSoul wrote: Fact is, the trolls are everywhere, workshop or not. nexus sites just do a good job of throwing a cloth over it. But its still there underneath.

And you're right. I will delete all my stuff of the workshop cause it is just awful over there.

dunmermagic wrote: I'm sorry you feel that way, but most major modders were against this. If you had some trolls get on your nerves, well that sucks, and if you feel the need to take down your mods, that's your choice. But nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything. That's the way it's worked for 13 years, and it's worked out pretty well if I do say so myself.

jmenaru wrote: I agree with you 100% FavoredSoul. I never expected Bethesda to remove this just because of the negative backlash, but I guess I was wrong.

FavoredSoul wrote: @dunmermagic

"nobody here owes you anything just as you don't owe us anything"


My point entirely.

Mod-users are happy to use you and your mods while you're offering, and then just as happily ready to throw you away without second thought.

You know what that is an example of? Taking another human being for granted for your own selfish needs.

phantompally76 wrote: Bah, stop acting like you're a victim.

6 days ago, selling your mods was illegal.

Axeface wrote: I completely agree with everything you said favouredsoul. This farse has shown what this community can be, it's like a pit of vipers. One thing is certain, I am disgusted by this community now and I dont want anything to do with it.

Now, I havent done anything really noteworthy for skyrim (althought I did take a very long time and effort making my small mods), but I have done extensive modding in other games, thousands of hours. The steam change got me interested again - I started drawing, I loaded up zbrush. I for one was really excited by the steam change and the quality mods we would have seen from it. It needed to be tweaked because is wasnt done well, but overall I think we are really missing out - both authors and users.

"hahahahahahahahha. Its hard enough getting people to CLICK A BUTTON TO ENDORSE A MOD, you think for a second people are going to strain their finger to use a donate button to give me their 5c? Reality is right here buddy, where have you been living?"

This is so true. I looked at my mods stats on the workshop that has 90,000 current subscribers - most days I get 0 'likes', on 'spike' days where I get a lot of dls (like a few days ago with 400 subs) I got 3 likes. I dont care honestly, but it shows just how sincere this 'we like to donate!' argument is.

"Valve and Bethesda certainly fcuked things up, royally, for a long time to come. All I want to do is remove my mods cause at least half of the hateful, selfish people out there just don't deserve anything at all. "

I was about to remove my mods too. Obviously mine are nothing mods, not like yours, but one has almost 100,000 subs. I just dont feel like I want to be part of this community anymore now.

EDIT: I'm removing my mods, "phantompally76" and his comments has pushed me over the edge.

Orgaya wrote: @FavoredSoul

You're not alone with that. Have you seen other mod authors' pages that decided to use the system? It was a real gong show. Constant feedback of people acting like they are entitled to free content.

@Everyone Else

If this experience has taught us anything, it's that no one deserves free stuff. We certainly haven't proven it.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ phantompally76

If i'm acting like a victim its because you, just now, made me a victim. I am a victim of your hate.

So someone wants to make 50c on a future mod that WOULDNT HAVE EXISTED IF NOT FOR THE SCHEME.

Mod authors are, and always will be, victims of mod-user hate. The hate that has been written for mod-authors here. The hate that has been written for mod-authors on steam. The hate that you wrote against me just right now, and all of the hate yet to be written.

nbtc971 wrote: You act as though someone hired you for a job. It was your decision and own desire to mod, no one asked you or forced you. In addition, when you created your content, you had to think at the time that you were doing it for free, so, if you don't want to do it for free any longer, then don't do it. I can't really blame you for that.

Anyone who creates anything for public consumption has to know that lots of people are entitled jerks. If you didn't, then I'm sure that was quite the wake up call. I haven't read all the comments, I'm sure there are a lot of fools saying stupid stuff, but that's the world we live in. Some will choose to punish those who are grateful due to the comments of the lowest denominator and I think that sucks, but, I can't really complain about it because it's not my time and effort that's being taken to task.

jfisha wrote: I'm just going to throw this in there, but I've personally never complained or wrote s#*! about a mod author because their mods are free. You can't complain about something you're getting for free, right?

Of course, that's not true for everyone, but with a free mod if you hid somebodies comment or told them to "f off", I'd be right there with ya.

However, if I paid for your mod, you'll f'nng take it and like it. You're no longer a person putting up free content, you're like the telephone company now, and I'm a very nice person but the lady that answer's the phone there absolutely hates me.

SkepticalJoker wrote: FavoredSoul,

No one is forcing you to make mods. If it's not fun, then why the hell are you doing it? Find another hobby, for goodness sake! And yes, it IS a hobby. It always has been. Nothing has changed on that front. Valve and Bethesda tried to do exactly what you claim mod users are doing: Take advantage of you. They wanted you to labor, then sell your labor to users, and keep 75% of the proceeds. The only people that win are Valve and Bethesda. Mod users may use your labor by playtesting and enjoying your mods, but they aren't making a profit off your work either. They're not asking you to make mods that they can then sell, while kicking back a measly 25%.

This idea could have worked if the kickback was fair and there was some modicum of assurance to the consumers that mods would be properly curated. As it stood, mod authors were getting screwed, consumers were getting screwed, and the legality of it all was questionable to say the least. Valve and Bethesda did one thing right, and that was to shut this absurd experiment down.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

You speak wise words.

phantompally76 wrote: FavoredSoul, I don't hate you.

I'm just very disappointed with you.

I don't expect you to lose any sleep over that.

I'm not going to lose any sleep, either.

Orgaya wrote: That isn't what the complaint here is. It's this idea that modders should never be given the option to be paid because the mod-user is entitled to free content for no reason. This simply isn't true or fair. And it's wholly disrespectful and incredibly insensitive to treat those who are giving handouts like dogshit.

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is a rather minority stance here. I think you will find most people at the Nexus are in favour of the option to give back to those they want to give back to.

EDIT: Isn't it actually technicaly, probably illegal to be even having these conversations now Bethesda has pulled the rug?

jfisha wrote: I disagree, Orgaya.

We were given the content. That's not a feeling of entitlement.

If you and I were hanging out and I gave you one of my beers, I can't tell the rest of my friends that you're an entitled piece of crap because you took it.

Let's not forget that up until three days ago, most of us here thought all the mod authors were perfectly fine with the way things were going. We've been thriving for four years, for Christ's sake.

I don't think that point gets brought up enough

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

Its so flawed.

THE ENTIRE MODDING SCENE IS ABOUT CHOICE.

I make a choice to make mods.
People make a choice to consume them.
I make a choice to charge 50c for a particular mod...

Yeah, no one asked me to be a modder. In just the same way, nobody asked you to be a consumer.

I have a choice to charge 50c, you have a choice on whether or not to pay 50c.

What gives you the right to come along and say you may not charge 50c?

Orgaya wrote: @phantompally76

You're disappointed in him... because he wanted to be compensated for his work. Ugh. It's just a game. You don't need mods. Sorry. You don't. None of us do.

phantompally76 wrote: Orgaya, did you even read what you just typed?


I agree with you. We don't NEED mods.

We don't NEED to buy them, either.

BadYeti wrote: Now imagine having all those mod users as customers. Having to solve their insane issues because you accepted their money. :~O It's the stuff of nightmares.

digitaltrucker wrote: Indeed, once they've paid for it they DO become entitled at that point.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ SkepticalJoker

I'm aware that a 75% cut for valve and Bethesda made those guys appear greedy to a lot of people, but at the end of the day, its for the mod-author to decide whether or not the contract is fair, not the consumer. The decision gets made when the choice is made on whether or not to sell. I know that there are a lot of people who were ok with paying mod-authors for their work, they just had a huge issue with paying valve/bethesda that 75% for doing nothing but facilitate the exchange. But um... that's how businesses operate. There is ALWAYS going to be a middleman.

I also think you are unaware of the volume of money that was actually being made by the paid mods scheme. Even with a measly 25% cut, the money being generated was PHENOMENAL.

That mod-author with the skull face armor being sold at 1.99 per unit? that made at least 2100 sales before it was taken down. That's 4179$ of which 25% was his for a total of 1044$. Even after losing a few % to fees, that's a damn LOT of money for a few days of sales.

If that was you making that money in 4 days, you wouldn't give a f- for 25%. You'd be more than happy to take what you got. Don't think for a second that if you were in a position to sell mods for that kind of money, that people wanted, you wouldn't leap at the chance.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ BadYeti

And it is because of this that this ecosystem of different memebrs of a community is so important and unique. Bet you it was a f'ing nightmare here when things started out... come to think of it, there are still many volatile situations. One thing the people who run this site have compared to Steam and Bethesda, is experience in dealing with the massively dynamic world of modding.

nbtc971 wrote: I didn't come along and say anything, because it's not my place, however Bethesda, in this case, did create the very tools you used to create your mod. They also created the game you are modding. Obviously they have the right to tell you if it's ok to profit from their work. I personally didn't make a single comment in favor or against the system. I did however listen and read opinions from my favorite youtubers and I felt like they made some valid points.

If a system can be put in that is fair to everyone, then fine. I don't think gaming companies and Valve should take 75% of the freakin profits! I also want assurances that the mod is going to work when I buy it and after any other updates. In addition, I would want any mod conflicts to be reconciled in a timely manner, or eliminated all together. Right now I just don't think modders are going to be able to provide the type of service required for a paid product. At least not with Skyrim. For it work, we might have to have a new system for the next game.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: My paid non-internet office job, which I make my living off of, is to listen to people complain all day.

If you can't handle a few trolls, then you shouldn't do anything involving the public. Everyone gets trolled. I was bullied as a kid but I grew from it. At least the people on your Steam page can't physically attack you.

You go on about entitlement, but you sound pretty entitled to the recognition of your mods. Mods get recognition on their merit of usefulness, not purely because you put a lot of effort into it (don't get me wrong, the fact that you put effort into it has merit too).

If you want to make money off of your artistic talents, make a game. I enjoyed webdesign and in a few work instances I made websites.

Don't try to make money off of an open source community. That's another thing, and it's quite an unethical thing.

FavoredSoul wrote: @nbtc971

A lot of people keep making that argument, that this system goes down the toilet when mods break, cause you've paid money and there must be assured of a certain level of quality assurance.

well, user review systems have always existed to inform users about the sensibility of product purchases. Why have people suddenly forgotten about this?

Secondly, the mods that would have gotten the most sales are the cosmetic ones, the weapons, armors and skin mods. These mods seldom break, and any mod-author with half a brain wouldn't upload something that didn't function.

There would have been plenty of opportunists popping up all over trying to make a quick buck off of broken/ half finished mods for sure, but that brings us back to the user review system. One negative review and that mod will be exposed, it'll get buried and life will go on.

Zink6 wrote: Going to be honest with u, what kind of bottled life have u been living? U want an internet without hate? Have u been using the internet for long? U think ur the only poor type of sap to be flamed at? Bud if u cant handle this much on the internet then u need to not only stop modding but stop using the internet.

As for ur reaction. Ur the same as the the ones flaming u. U give ur points in a sarcastic sense and poke fun at the arguments that people have presented. U bring no constructive criticism. U say how u hate half the people here yet for some reason expect love in return. Knowing all this u still bother to post this comment.

Like really man ur acting like such a child. Plz grow up. This is the internet, ppl talk s#*!, if ur famous in a sense, ur going to be asked to kill yourself (this is not ok but at the same time how u going to stop it). U need to learn to ignore those ppl and work with the admins to better police the site. That's as much as u can ask or expect. If u want anything more u can go dream about it in ur sleep because if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?

nbtc971 wrote: @FavoredSoul How does a negative review make someone forget they spent money for a broken mod? Most people will care more about their hard earned money being wasted than the opportunity to leave a negative review in the hopes that it destroys a mod author.

jad31te wrote: "if the governments of the world cant keep the internet free of piracy, torrents and child pornography what do u think u, the ppl at nexus and steam can do to stop trolls?"

I dunno, actually mod the site and start banning trolls?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Just sit back and wait for SOPA.

jfisha wrote: "You're damn straight its a mod-user vs mod-author argument."

I'll keep reiterating this until I turn blue in the face. No, it is not. Why, you ask? Because there's some mod user's that agree with you, there's some that don't. There's some mod authors that agree with you, some that don't.

There are three sides to this argument.

People who think mods should always remain free (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who think mod authors should be allowed to make money (includes mod authors and mod users)

People who will pay for good mods, but think Valve just implemented a crappy system (includes mod authors and mod users)

pvbridgeford wrote: I understand the frustration you are feeling, I'm a new modder, just learning how to mod. I've posted some small mods and rather insignificant at best. The complaints are endless from a few bad eggs, but I'm 67 now and have learned to let the s#*! hit the fan and step out of it's way. I respond to positive comments, but refuse to respond to anyone that is not at least constructive in their negativity. I hope you find it in your future to continue the great work you have been doing and find a way to enjoy the modding community again. Until then I'M Keeping all your work I've downloaded in a safe place so i'll have access to it in the future when I get a new computer.

Thanks again for all your hard work.

savagemoonlight wrote: Aren't you putting yourself up for even more abuses if people were to pay for your mod? Hey I want this sword to be green. I want it to sparkle. Hey you better give in to my demands cause I've freaking PAID for you mod, you're obligated to do as I ask.

Truth is, self-entitled abusive arsehole will always be around and I'm sorry how they've made you so cynical but paid modding is definitely not a solution to this.

roland113 wrote: Well said FavoredSoul.

You nailed it on the head, all the common negatives mod creators get a lot of as they pour their hearts into work. The 1 or 2% of people who take the time to hit the endorse button and people who want to use it to extort their requests even through they keep coming back and downloading every update you do. There are always a few trolls and angry, immature weirdos out there who ruin any online community or game.

It's easy to put up with community crap when its a paid job and you've got people plunking down monthly subscription fees, DLC or other things. Its entirely another when you're basically sharing stuff for free that you're doing for the pure passion of it.

Online game communities always schism like this when big changes hit too. Even good people get all worked up into a froth, and misinformation spreads too. Tensions rise and things become as volatile as if things were red hot discussions on religion or politics. I've seen it time and time again in the industry, and I'm even going through some stuff like this at my day job right now. ugh. Make a change in an existing system and all hell breaks loose.

It's easy to get furious at the jackasses of the world - but when all is said and done - I hope you're still able to appreciate the good community people too.

I still love working with the good people here in the Nexus community who are for the most part really cool and enthusiastic. I've met a lot of nice modders and fans from around the globe, and made quite a few really nice people here. The letters/ videos/ posted art and the helpful suggestions I get really make all the difference for me when I'm modding. It keeps me motivated and from working in a vacuum, and makes it easier to strive to improve.

For me this is basically my nightly jam sessions, and my free time to do whatever work I want, the way I want. The haters - well if they start to cross the lines I just delete them from my boards or ignore them. As for Steam - i mostly stayed away from that from the start, and will continue to do so because its community has never been the same caliber the Nexus is.

viperony wrote: I feel for you and hate to see the trolls being mean to you for your mods! But know most of us who love your mods are here to support you even with the donation button and what not your work has made a lot of us happy and we see the amazing effort you had done and the love seen in your work. Please don't listen to the bad comments or feel down because of them they can go up a tree! Don't remove the mods just because they are getting to you.

}{ellKnight wrote: @Orgaya
I'd agree with you if Bethesda were competent enough to fix their own game and make a decent UI. This hasn't been the case for years.


@FavoredSoul
People will be dicks on the internet regardless of whether they pay you or get your stuff for free. I highly doubt you'll put up with less s#*! if they can also throw in the "but I paid you for this" argument on top of all the other ones when they demand you do a certain thing a certain way. Like I said, people will be dicks on the internet.

I'm not saying some modders didn't get flamed. It isn't the right thing to do, this much is obvious for most of us and when talking about this on the different forums I directed my disappointment at Valve and Bethesda, not at the modders. Reading people's thoughts about this stuff on the forums where trolling gets you banned pretty fast I noticed that other people did the same as I did: arguing in a civil manner, not flaming modders. Did some people post s#*! on the nexus? Yes... they but were also banned for it when reported by the the rest of the community. Did some people post s#*! on steam? Yes... but most of them are still there and encouraged by other trolls. If you think putting your mod behind a pay wall on SWS will make people less rude on the steam forums you're sorely mistaken. Not to mention that the SWS is horrible for hosting skyrim mods due to the way information is baked into the save game. It can royally screw over your game and this is not even accounting for the conflicts that can pop up as mods get updated. As a user you have no control over updates.



You guys can "thank" us all you want by calling us shitstains and other names... we've done this for the past 13 years for free and it has produced amazing results and we want to preserve that. We've uploaded mods and had to put up with selfish people just like everybody else. It sucks but you have to remember that most people don't feel that way, that most people really appreciate the work we put into this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @FavoredSoul You need to look at the big picture here. That mod you said, the skull armor one, making a LOT OF MONNEEYY, it's the perfect example of why this system will harm the modding scene.
Some may say that being paid for mods will encourage mod authors to make great effort and create wonderful mods. While I think that's true, it will be the minority.
This model Valve implemented, will be filled with half assed armors and weapons, mostly cosmetics, with 0 passion and effort. Just like the app store for android. Hundreds and hundreds of stupid crap, totally tasteless and dull games, etc. The good mods will be few. The majority of people will take advantage of the brainless consumers and make no effort whatsoever for their mods. Modders will start to think and make mods with money in mind, passion being minor. It will be like a paid job, with deadlines and such.
I never thought of modding as a paid job. FOR ME, this will ruin the spirit of modding.

The Sims modding scene was DESTROYED when money got involved. A lot of sites started to exploit this, making paid mods a regular thing. Thank god its getting better, slowly.

Anyways, thats my point of view.

jfisha wrote: ValtielCurse

Let's not forget those poor souls who are scared away from sites like the Nexus just because they might have to do something other then hit "subscribe" to get a mod. Even if there's awesome free armor that blows away anything on Steam Workshop for 2 bucks, they'll still blindly pay it.

I guess that's not really much of an argument against it. Maybe those poor saps should be taken advantage of

ChizFoShiz wrote: No way I'm reading down this whole chain cause it looks scary kind of long, but I feel like chiming in.

I'm 100% with you FavoredSoul, the most disgusting part about this is authors were given an option to do something we couldn't before and it's been stripped away just because petulant people can't stand the thought of not having access to everything they "deserve".

That's all this boils down to, it's the same argument that was happening years ago over DLC, except this time you're hurting people who have shown nothing but incredible amounts of good-will to you for years instead of developers who are already being compensated.

And the worst part? Those who did want or try to be compensated are the ones being crucified as "greedy".

What's more greedy, asking for $0.99 for the project you've labored over for thousands of hours, or demanding that price shouldn't exist and I should get that for free because I always have before?

Because the answer seems pretty damn obvious to me.

I've only started to share my plugins in the last couple of years but with the way the audience around the internet in general have acted I doubt I'm going to bother in future and I'm seriously considering making my current files disappear.

jfisha wrote: ChizFoShiz

This thread is not nearly as long as some of the others.

You can do what you want, man. I can understand why you're pissed and if you feel that the community at large needs to be your punching bag, then do what you need to do. A ton of people were all for you guys doing what you wanted, some of us were supportive of you guys but didn't support your decision. If you feel the whole community at large deserves your hatred because you didn't get your way, so be it

d4rkoverlord wrote: Welcome to the internet, FavoredSoul, I use your ultimate assortment mod, and I've been very pleased with it, remember that for each one of those people who complain or give you hate for not getting what they want from you, there are lots of other people who really enjoy your work.

However, as this is internet, almost everything you post, do or say is subject to criticism, good or bad, constructive or destructive, but then again words are only that. If someone doesn't like your stuff, f*** it, do what you want to do with your stuff and only attend to what you consider important.

My final comment is towards the point of getting monetary reward for your mods:

Look I understand your point since mods take effort and time, but you have to understand that when you add money to the formula things must change because the hobbie must become a job/bussiness and as such people are going to demand more from you based on what they're paying and if you can't even take a few hate comments like a man now that there's no money involved, wait till you start charging people for your stuff.

BTW I dont know if your current occupation is related to graphic design or videogames production in general but I do think that with your talent you could be dedicating to that as a formal carreer, so if you're not already into that, you should focus on it instead of those "evil comments from those poisonous people" that torment you so much because that gives a lot more revenue than you could have gotten from that infamous 25%.

fullk0ntact wrote: I usually don't post on things like this because I can typically find better uses of my time, but on this comment in particular I feel inclined to do so. It seems to me that your post only focuses on the negatives of the community and not the positives. Being pessimistic in nature, this is rare for me to say, but it is so blatantly apparent here I felt the need to point it out. Not once in my entire time on the internet have I bashed a mod author for their work, even if I didn't like what they had made. I either gave my praise or I shut up and moved on.

Additionally, although I wasn't outspoken about this "paywall" issue, I did sign a petition against it. I didn't sign it because I was against mod authors charging for their mods, I signed it because a super-corporation wanted to take 75% of the mod author's hard earned money. Well, that's not the only reason, there was also mod stealing and absolutely 0 quality control for what was posted on the workshop in the paid mods section, but I think you get the point.

Boxilot wrote: The "should we pay for mods" argument went through the sims community like hot fire about five years ago now, too. When certain modders started to hide their content behind "donations" (in other words, you had to donate said amount to get their content).

The debate was long, it was hard. We got pirate sites. People were hacked. People were run out of their homes. Yeah hard to believe about the people who play sims of all things right?

Well people didn't like that what we were doing as a community was going to benefit a few select. We had modders who did it for fun, and we had modders who did it for gain. Needless to say it ended up with EA stepping in and now all mods are free. We can finally have a proper community again where things are done in the spirit of fun and community, not in the spirit of money and undercutting and entitled customers.

If you don't do it for fun and you feel you should be compansated (honestly, the idea that you feel you need to be compansated for CHOOSING to do a certain thing with your own game is absurd to me) then in my honest opinion I don't think you should continue. You're obviously not doing it because it brings enjoyment to you anymore.

I don't mod in the skyrim scene but I mod in the sims scene and I do it for fun. I do it because I feel like I want a certain thing in my game and then I share it with my friends because they might want it too. The concept of money wasn't even an idea before Beth and Valve came rushing in, yelling at the top of their voice. Now we have modders left right and center that feel they're owed something. That they deserve compansation for what they're creating.

People spend hundreds, thousands of hours writing fanfiction, do they demand pay for that? No. Why? Because they did it for fun. They don't expect to get compansated for doing something in the spirit of the community.

ChizFoShiz wrote: jfisha that's not even the point here, it's got nothing to do with "not getting my way", I didn't even take part, for me it's mostly about human decency.

Honestly the decision to ditch the system was disappointing but not exactly world shattering.

The hate and the entitlement of the userbase at large however is what's so soul-crushingly hurtful and is clearly what FavoredSoul is getting at too.

That harassment, the threats, the "You won't be missed" comments from ignorant people who've likely never even shared a thing with the community. It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them.

And to the people who have posted "you should expect hate" "get used to it" and the rest of this tripe, you clearly have never been on the receiving end of this behaviour, certainly not en masse, so maybe shut up? There *is* no "getting used" to threats from people you don't know, ever, because you've got no idea what's an 8 year old idiot half way across the globe and who's an unstable lunatic on the other side of town, get it into your skulls that this is NOT okay behaviour and that everyone, including you, needs to take a damn stand.

This is getting way too long and seems like I'm directing it all at you jfisha but it's really not. This whole debacle illustrates yet again the major problems with gaming culture and internet culture overall and that there needs to be some kind of major change here.

I'm tired of being an island in an ocean of pricks.

FavoredSoul wrote: @ChizFoShiz

Thanks chiz. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is very disappointing to think about what COULD have been, had the scheme continued. I would have certainly loved to invest a huge amount of my time and effort into new sets of mods. And its what Valve and Bethesda wanted. They wanted a financial incentive to induce people with real marketable skills to consider creating mods of the highest quality (when they otherwise would not have considered doing it) The less desirable emergence of opportunists, and the inevitable sea of mediocrity, an unfortunate but unavoidable side effect.

Rayek wrote: I've been around for awhile and experienced the trolls and unappreciative/expectant people. Even the horrid dislike button.

I agree it's a shame that people can't take the time to endorse mods to give the author a minor pat on the back...or leave a nice comment.

I agree the donate button won't solve much based on what I've seen in endorsement and donate trends.

I however disagree with your approach, it's no better than the people who are selfish, expectant to a modder and can't step back and look at it from another point of view.

I do mod for the "passion" of it, for the creative release, for the learning experience and for the hope that some others will get the same enjoyment out of what I created. 1, 2, 3 or 100 negative comments doesn't take away form those that do enjoy a mod.

To punish those who enjoy your mods by removing them cause others are jerks and don't is...for lack of a better word...childish.

I hope it's just frustration that's eating at you right now and you can look back and reconsider your stance, keep your mods up and move past this.

ValtielCurse wrote: @ChizFoShiz "It all paints an awful picture of an audience that frankly don't deserve to have a single thing shared with them"
But is it okay if they pay, to share things with them?

Haters and stupid people will always exist. It will NEVER change. The best way is to ignore them and stay with the people that care. Those are the ones that move your ways, and fire up your passion for this thing called modding.

And funny, I get more s#*! and hate irl that on the internet. Here I come to escape from the hell that is my every day life. Don't say that you are the only one on the receiving end.

Xavathos wrote: FavoredSoul.

I feel you have become as bitter as the people you describe. You seem to forget the fact that the majority of people who speak out are the ones with the destructive attitude, because generally people do not go out of their way to say "thank you". Not because they are not grateful, but because it's hardly worth a post and you should know that your mods are useful and appreciated by simply watching the download counter.

When people make requests with a lack of respect, you don't need to respond or act upon said request in any way. If someone punched you in the face and then asked for a quarter to make a call, you wouldn't give it to him either, would you?

However, the vast majority of the community, even if it may not seem that way because they are not as... obnoxious as the destructive trolls, are people that are very much grateful for your mods, or any other mods for that matter and it's those people that would you punish by removing mods or stopping to make/update them.

If you think the trolls care, and you can get them back that way, I'm afraid you misunderstand them. They troll specifically because they do NOT care. Whatever you do, it doesn't affect them, it does affect us.

So I would kindly ask you to reconsider your position on this subject. Perhaps seek out your inner optimist and try to find the silver lining. All in all, you didn't start modding for nothing, right? Hold on to that, and trust in the part of the community that does care. Let go of all the hate and trolls, it will only turn you as bitter as they are. Don't let them win.

Halendia wrote: I suppose as I am an exception in most cases, but I've spent over $120 in donations total to the Nexus community authors, I go through my mod list frequently to endorse every mod I decide to permanently add to my collection, and/or a mod I feel is worthy but cannot keep. I have created mods, I've ~250 hours clocked in the CK, not a lot compared to others, but eh, it's +/-250 hours. I've spent countless hours battling comments sections, to either help defend and author or help troubleshoot. I've made patches for some mods in order to assist the author receiving more spotlight - asking for nothing in return.

I know for certain that I have donated to some of the authors that decided to add paywalls to their mods, Isoku is a good example. I donated more than he would have received had I bought his mods from the Workshop.

I AM ONE OF THOSE USERS, so what about me? I have EXPLICITLY gone out of my way to try make modding more fun by assisting/donating/contributing/encouraging authors, and also made a few measly mods by myself.

So what about me?

hafizlordfeast wrote: Ever heard the word "This is why we can't have nice things"? Yup, people who does amazing things will rarely get the gratitude they deserve, so it comes to how they handle it in the end, and I'm not just talk about modding, but everything there is to life. Sure it sucks to provide something to the people that is worse than animal out there, but if you can endure the internet abuse, without the need to give up, some people will be grateful as well.

You do have my thanks for providing some of the cool mods, that I used and maybe forget to endorse, and probably will donate if only the money differences ain't so contrast enough in their cost, between different countries, still don't have enough money you know, even if I do, I rather pay extensively if I want to donate something on the internet. Of course, we all know that most people are used to committed on being douche in the internet every day, instead of giving back something good.

I could not fathom how people could live a life of bullies everyday without the feeling of at least saying "Thank You". I know I wouldn't want to be friend with any of them, and rather just give each of them a good punch in the face, if I could. If only the computer will let me do that. But I do say this, thank you for the hard work you've done, even though you have received the treatment you don't deserve, we, half of the community who also stay behind the curtain, are grateful for your services over the five or so years.

ChizFoShiz wrote: My final line was to convey just how overwhelming the awful to normal ratio is on the internet, not to suggest that it's me vs the world.

That being said the fact that the internet is like that right now doesn't mean it should continue to be and it doesn't give people a free pass to let it.

If human beings just said "Well, that's the way it is!" every time something was wrong in society we'd never make progress, this is no different to any other societal problem and it needs a remedy.

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

It's noble to want to change the situation of the internet, but how do you suggest we remedy this?

Going back to medieval times, pick up our pitchforks and torches and "burn the trolls" signs? And if so, who would we burn? Everything is essentially anonymous.

Fact of the matter is, there have always been people like this since the beginning of time. Liars, cheaters, scammers, frauds, bullies, or criminals of any other kind. It's just in the last 30 years it's become much more apparent because of the way the internet and other media spread the beliefs of these trolls uncensored and without consequence to the person hiding behind a username.

And yeah, it's getting worse. But I ask you again, how do you think to remedy this?

Uranium - 235 wrote: @FavoredSoul

At the end of the day, the paywall scheme almost certainly was going to destroy collaboration, completely f*#@ up 'complementary' mods (ie: the 'recommended to use with this mod...' lists), and basically price everyone out of the ability to mod Skyrim even close to what they were used to, because with every crackpot modder thinking his product is worth 'just $4', a huge install would cost literally hundreds of dollars.

Regardless if the 'most profitable mods' were going to be stupid ugly Skeletor armor or not, introducing greed into the mix was going to severely change how modding for Gamebryo works, for the worse of everyone except the people profiting.

You were going to throw all that away for your own personal payday.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @Xavathos The more people that don't sit idly by and watch as people are abused, the less people are going to do it. I don't have a perfect solution, I doubt anyone does, of course there are still going to be people that do it, but change doesn't happen by sitting on your hands.

And no, this isn't a problem that's only just visible because of the way we communicate, it's exasperated by the way we communicate, I guarantee you the vast VAST majority of abusive behaviour online would not take place in a real world scenario because A. You are no longer anonymous/a screen name and B. You're probably within distance of people who are not going to just watch.

The ability to form a hate mob on the internet in recent years has gotten ridiculous and this is just one more example of it happening.

kai0 wrote: Good grace, please, just take a deep breath all. As a purely user of all the fantastic mods you have all created over the last years, i must say that i personally have been overjoyed with the diversity and availability you modders have brought to skyrims modding community.

In all i would like you users, people such as i, to ask yourself: what right do i have to blatently deny those who have laid many hours of work into content, which i enhance my experience of this game, some gratitude?
Certainly not all the content which has been made over the years deserves equal praise, but nontheless does it deserve it for being made.

Personally i feel that paid mods could have been a great initiative towards greater quality. I don't really understand the rage against the concept of paid mods. quality control would have come along quite naturally in the form of people buying the good mods, not the silly bad ones. Albeit the system on startup was pretty much rubbish. No content controll. Imo a 90% cut to the modders and 10% shared between valve and bethesda, combined with lower prices would have been a more realistic model. In the long rund Valve and Bethesda would have made money, and the modders would have made money equal to or greater than a donation with cuts.

FavoredSoul, know that i respect you for the content you have brought to the community. Content that i have used in more than a few playthroughs. Phantompally76's comment is harsh and wether the community would survive with or without you is irrelative, although you will surely be missed for the content you could have made.

This concerns the rest of you lot aswell! Know that people (in general) are very grateful for the content you have brought us.

To the rest: Show some fcking respect.

Bring the love back to Skyrim, love and Peace!

Xavathos wrote: @ChizFoShiz

I agree wholeheartedly, and I too believe that something needs to be done. I just don't see how. Unfortunately it seems that the more we talk about it, the more attention we give it, the worse it gets.

darklordzelot wrote: It's not surprising what people commented. I mean this is the internet the one place where people can let out their inner evil without worrying about the consequences. And they will do exactly that because it's the way people work. I'm not saying everyone does it but most do.

pantera160 wrote: Since these replies have become a bit to long to read them all I'm just gonna trow my 2c in.

I do agree with you on the fact lots of mod-users are just rubbish. They are part of the new internet society where everything on the internet is not only free, but has to completely correspond to our wants. But this does not mean every single mod-user is like this.
Don't you think that removing a mod will hurt those users who downloaded it and endorsed it and maybe even donated for it a lot more then those trolls and haters?

Also the biggest problem I and probably a lot of other people who did sign the petition had was not only the paying for the mod but the added complications for the future and the total lack of communication. As stated on nexus and other sites the fear was to see the whole community break and see all the quality mods go behind the paywall.
I understand modders wouldn't mind getting some money for their mods, but why did you even start making them? To improve your own game right? For fun on a game that you like playing?
Until last week people released a couple new mods and updates a day. All in the hope of someone donating? Or just because they liked it, wanted to please the players and in the best case even earn some cash for it...

I am not going to defend those retards giving death-treats to or insulting modders, but it did piss off quite some people when a couple of modders put themself in a victim role. And not a hate victim (that i agree with) but a money victim: 'I have always made mods for the love and fun of making them, but now after 5 years i realise you guys should've paid me for it'. So don't just pull your mods from nexus but just do like SkyUI did, keep everything that exists till this date free but make updates paid...

Lastly I still think donations are the way to go unless Bethesda and Valve come up with a solution to the QC and mod stealing.

Sorry for long post ;)

Unilythe wrote: I can't understand how someone could not agree with what FavoredSoul wrote here. The internet is a vile place, even on the Nexus sometimes. I've seen my fair share of hateful, entitled, demanding nonsense thrown at mod authors here on the Nexus. Clearly that happens. I'm not sure how you could disagree with that - it's a fact.

As for mods being paid - I think most people were against the way Valve and Bethesda handled it, and also against the fact that already existing mods became paid. If there were only new mods on there, Valve and Bethesda had communicated this entire thing better, and the cut to the mod author was higher, I don't think there would have been an outrage like this.
Now there are people who legitimately complained about mod authors "selling out". Screw those people. If mod authors want to get paid for some of their mods, sure. It's worked for other games. People put in a lot of work in a mod sometimes, so if they want to get paid 50 freaking cents or maybe even a dollar for it then why the hell not?

You are so right Favored. My initial reactions were concern about intellectual property sharing but I did not give enough consideration to mod authors getting recompense for their good work.

Nobody was forcing me to buy a sword, but certain mods are definitely worth money to me.

I hope the reintroduce the option for paid mods in the future. You can count on me buying good stuff.

[Marstonn]

I agree, i'm not relevant but i'm removing my 2 weapons models, i'll only share my work with my friends now.

[Unilythe]

In response to post #24747119. #24747194, #24747629 are all replies on the same post.

Silfirian wrote:

ChizFoShiz wrote: Maybe because it's a company run by human beings? Money doesn't instantly make you not have feelings, whether it's the feelings of a large quantity of people or not.

Bethesda's article looks like a company that was bullied into making a decision, because it was.

TheInquisitor wrote: I'd just like to add a few things:

First I'd like to say that I think I understand what Dark0ne meant by he felt sorry for Bethesda. They've been pretty supportive of modding pretty much from the get-go and this was an attempt, not just to continue that, but up the ante and actually give something back. A company with their history would be unlikely to be doing something as delicate as this as a money grab, so I never really thought this was a financial issue for them, especially when you consider the tiny fraction of money that would be going to them from the tiny fraction of the community that actually uses mods (8% with a modded game, possibly fewer than half that actually modding using the Workshop, and an even tinier fraction of mods on the Workshop generating an income from paywalls). As Gabe said in an AMA on reddit, any company doing something like that with those numbers with financial gain in mind is out of its mind.

Secondly, I'd like to point out that if this had been a donation-based system instead of a paywall system then most of the concerns would've been moot cos all mods would've still been free. I also think the model being used before the whole thing was shut down would work for some different games like Dota 2 or CS:GO where the content is entirely cosmetic and it's a WYSIWYG product from the get-go.

Lastly I get the feeling that Bethesda are probably walking away from this with their public image tail somewhat between their legs, and I think it's a bit unfortunate that this will be the case (my reasoning is the same as what I said in the first paragraph) because there is always the chance, however small, that it might generate impetus within the company to move away from the strong modding support they've had thus far and none of us want that. The community overreacted spectacularly (the only worse reaction I can remember was the Diretide shitstorm for Dota 2 2 years back...god knows we didn't need another one of those). The concerns were valid, but the ferocity of the reaction was NOT.

The world isn't just money.

From the piece written by Bethesda you can clearly see this wasn't their intention. The 75% cut was clearly ridiculous, but they simply made a few (huge) mistakes. As Dark0ne said, if they would have written this before the release of paid modding, I'm sure it would have helped a ton.

[Crowzer]

It's a good news but let's be honest: something is now broken in the modding community.

[Bellato1983]

yes they released an SDK when they didn't have to, but its the only good thing they did and they profit from that cause the game is still alive thanks to the modders that made this shitty game better. without mods game is 4/10(5/10 tops. no more than that). story line is boring as hell, radiant and faction quests are freaking bad, AI non existent(enemies are just standing there till you beat them to death), difficulty sucks and max lvl of enemies is around 28, and after that they don't level anymore(when you hit 30lvl its better to quit the game cause there's no challenge without mods), combat is boring(TK Combat and elysees-or elysees2 on youtube- mods fix that), graphics are horrible(lightning etc included), and optimization is worse than s#*!. watch a video of The Vanishing of Ethan Carter game, guess what PC specs you must have to play that game with these spectacular graphics, and only after you see video search in google the required specs. Bethesda owns everything to the modders. modders fixed most of the bugs/glitches before Bethesda lazy faks did. if i was Bethesda owner i'd fire my employees and hire the modders since they do better job

[GummyGun]

To be honest I would see paid mods having more success in multiplayer games. That is if you are the type that wants to make a living out of it, but to start pricing modding in general is off. I understand both sides in the matter, some nodders want recognition and compensation for their hard work and other just want to make the game better and share their work with others. Now, let's look at the workshop model! There are pros and cons, but the cons outweigh the pros in my opinion. Modders received compensation for there work after achieving $100 in sales and received 25% while the rest of the 75% was split between Bethesda and Valve. Now this is a pro and a con at the same time, because you are being compensated and at the same time you are receiving very little for your efforts. Now let's look at the users, we got used to a model in which we can download a bunch of mods and then have the best Skyrim experience ever and I THANK EVERY SINGLE MODDER WHO MADE IT POSSIBLE! However, by incorporating this paywall, some modders just forgot about the community, DIDN'T EVEN WARN US that this was coming and all of a sudden all of those mods that made Skyrim better, started to vanish behind a paywall (Boy did I feel like an idiot that i didn't save those mods). So you see, from the bright said modders would've gotten paid, but the community would've been forever lost and replaced by this model. Leading to a downfall of PC gaming (at least in my situation).

 

But, now something else has awoken... a civil war between modders and users. So sad...

Edited April 28, 2015 by GummyGun