Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

[Pevey]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890484, #24890884 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

@ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless". Edited May 2, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

[Tyerial12]

In response to post #24859024. #24859239, #24860709, #24861914, #24870839, #24875649, #24877069, #24877239, #24877524, #24886889, #24888679 are all replies on the same post.

wulfharth wrote: Sometimes an idea once presented will persist as a part of the public consciousness forever. Finding out that Bethesda is in favor of individuals being paid to create content that adds life to their games will cause a massive change in the entire modding community.

Expect to see professional DLC creating studios in the future. Modders will soon have an opportunity to mod full-time and make a living from it. I wouldn't be surprised if these studios became sub-studios of Bethesda someday.

The downside is that the most professional and biggest mods will be paid mods (much like now). The upside is that there will be more DLC quality mods available and probably with additional support from Bethesda in terms of rigging files and code.

I have never failed to buy a mod for a TES game since Morrowind, and I've considered them all money well spent. I really look forward to the prospect of more of that type of content becoming available. The sooner this site adapts to this possibility, the better it will be able to stay a foundation piece of this community.

pokenar wrote: I was not actually one of those against paid mods, I just didn't like the execution. there were many many many issues with how bethesda and valve did it.

wulfharth wrote: Those percentages are pretty standard for a situation like that. If you read the Beth Blog, they will explain it. Valve was even going to share some of their cut with the Nexus.

Also, I think it's sad that people attacked modders who were trying to exercise an opportunity that was given to them. Nothing was taken away, an option was added for the modder.

It's old news now, but it's a sad day for artistic freedom. People think they don't have to pay for art because the artist enjoys their work. That mentality needs to change if modding is to thrive and reach it's true potential.

welikedustybetter wrote: Modding is different than art in many ways. There are many aspects to consider. Mods can be buggy or incompatible with each other or with your game or system. This is exacerbated by the bugs or stability issues native to the game. Then there's the fact that many mods are dependent upon other mods. Then there are modders resources and frameworks. Would there then also be royalty fees? A paid mods system would be a legal nightmare.

To sum up my opinion on this, I think modders provide a very valuable service to these games, and they should get paid for it. However, I think a donation system is much more suited for this. Someone else made a good long post on it in a previous Nexus article, so I won't bother, but I think the current system could use some tweaks that remind users that they can donate to the mod author, and perhaps reward those that do.

wulfharth wrote: Donation systems do not work. People mostly don't bother to endorse even to the best of the best mods. Do you really think they will take the time to give out of the kindness of their hearts? Historically on this site, no. They don't understand how long it takes to add a simple model or build a dungeon.

Modding requires creativity and is undeniably Art. That's why game development is taught at art academies in America.

If everyone gave one penny to each mod they use right now, Some people could quite their jobs and mod full time. That means more mods, more updates, and more compatibility patches. Mod theft and asset theft is easy to control with the reporting system we already have in place. Creators of buggy mods will not be endorsed and will not receive repeat business.

thefinn wrote: Yeah the percentages really were a slap in the face - even if it really was just a perception thing.

If it had been an even spread of 33% each, it might've been better.

However, giving the modder 25% of the take, while the other 2 parties take the lions share, kind of says "You are the least important part of this process." doesn't it ?

It certainly gave me that perception of their views.

muter3456 wrote: " Donations Systems do not work "

Yea. That's why Tarn Adams, a full on game developer, artists, even twitch streamers DEFINITELY don't make their money off donations. Definitely don't.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The modding community has been doing just fine for over a decade. If ain't broke, don't fix it.

But if you want to start your own mod-studio or whatnot, and sell your DLC to Bethesda or whatever, good luck with that :)

treota wrote: "Some people could quit their jobs and mod full time" - I think you nailed it there. SOME people could mod full time.

It is very unlikely to create an environment where any modder can put the effort in and make a living off it, what is significantly more likely is that SOME modders who either get lucky or have more support will be able to make a meager living off their work and most modders will have to do exactly the same as they always have.

Also with the introduction of money into the system you will cull a large portion of your audience, which personally I would say leads to less mods being created. Evidence? Name a game that has over 12,000 DLC and customers willing to pay for it (seriously I'm curious if one exists, closest I can think of is Borderlands or Dawn of War 2).

To be optimistic lets say the average customer that pays for the game (note that the base game is not free here) is also willing to buy 20 mods, 10 of those mods are most likely to be the 'essential' mods that are always the same, so 10 mod makers/studios can make a small profit.
The other 10 are just random items spread between the modding community as a whole and as such are probably not providing the authors with any real profit. Please note that if the next TES game is FREE with paid modding it might be a different story.

Boyninja616 wrote: It's nice that you have the disposable income to be able to pay for them. Some of us can merely afford the original game.

And yet, the team behind Beyond Skyrim have said, officially, that even if they could charge for their mod, they wouldn't. They can't due to license limitations on some of the resources they're using, but the meat of the matter remains the same. I do not know of any big and/or professional mods that charge for their download. Perhaps you could enlighten me? Searching for paid mods yields results like this page.

You've said that money will attract "Talent" and "Quality". I'll go into why I think that's false later, but I don't know if you've noticed, the best mods (The best for a reason - Adding good quality or large amounts of new content) on the Nexus were all developed and released for free (As well as every single other one). A lot of modder's resources were also released for free.

The Nexus has been around since 2003. In those 12 years I doubt anyone, particularly in the early years, had any idea that something like this debacle would come to fruition. Modders slaved away with the Development Kit and other relevant programs to bring their fellow players something to enjoy. It was a labour of love; Even you contributed your Dragonbone weapons set to Immersive Weapons, a free mod.

Yet, as soon as the prospect of making money was introduced, several modders (Yourself included) metaphorically jumped for joy. As soon as the community showed what they thought about the idea, you as a group became bitter and resentful. You had no idea how much you were going to make from your creations (You can't use the few examples we have as the benchmark) and it doesn't make sense to attack and alienate the entire community (Not just the whingers) over what could be a few hundred $.

Don't even get me started on the legal wranglings (Particularly when it comes to modder's resources) and adhering to consumer law in every country your mod is downloaded in (Something that Steam itself doesn't actually do).

I will freely admit that I don't make mods myself, and that I have only endorsed 5 files in my 7 years here. The only reason I didn't donate was because, like many here, I had no idea you could.

I do, however, have a YouTube channel. It is admittedly small, but the work that goes into creating, editing and processing the content is no less daunting and time-consuming. I do it as a hobby, for other people's entertainment in my spare time. That is my motivation, even though I know that view counts won't even get in to triple figures. I would never force people to pay to watch my videos (Hell, I don't even advertise anywhere). If my channel were to get bigger, than I would use a platform like Patreon to allow people to donate, but I wouldn't hold it against them if they'd rather keep their money to themselves.

I just don't see why some modders have taken such a hostile attitude to this whole fiasco. I'm not on the side of the community; Some of the vitriol was sickening, but I'm not on the side of the modders who've shut the door on everyone either.

WightMage wrote: Good post.

I may not be a mod author but i do endorse all mods i use on a daily basis and unendorce mod authors who act childish and remove there mods. They are no longer on my load list.

Do i think i deserve everything free nope

But i do expect to get 100% customer support when i buy mods and it to work as intended. Selling mods on skyrim can not guarantee this at all

I thank every mod author that deserves respect and makes great mods and has good player support. So when paid mods come back i will be looking at the mod authors who decided to be childish and remove there mods because we the users didnt support a crappy system that was sprung on us like it was. Some users well they wanted tit free period.. Me i wanted a good system in place and not to KILL the free mods commnitys like this will and seems to have anyways Edited May 2, 2015 by Tyerial12

[Tyerial12]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside the day to day commitment of being a part of society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

[Shadowmane01]

In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584, #24888714, #24889009, #24889094, #24889294, #24889464, #24889519, #24889849 are all replies on the same post.

freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.

When will it end? Are we just in a cycle of arguing?

WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*

cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.

freedom613 wrote: It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.

This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.

@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire.

DCWillis wrote: The community will move on but it is going to take time and will not be the same for a long while. Betrayal can be forgiven but it is not soon forgotten.

Also I paid attention to the wording when this ended. The said they made a mistake by trying to implement this into an "established community" which means when the next TES comes out or Fallout 4 it will be a new community and they will put it in place immediately.

This is not over yet.

thefinn wrote: Well I got to the debate late - I was doing other things - so I wanted to hear what people were saying and say something myself.

If you've moved on - fine, move on.

freedom613 wrote: Point is, we need everyone to move on. If just one or two people move on, then that is nothing. Community is still tearing itself apart over this fiasco with no end in sight. What is the end goal? What will stop the cycle? The community doesn't win until we put down out pitchforks.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Mine is in my shed for now. Call me paranoid :P

WightMage wrote: @freedom613 I wasn't implying that it was flamebait. o.o The intention was to pop popcorn to watch the other threads turn on fire, but I suppose I should have explained better, sorry.

DCWillis wrote: I have been a hardcore Skyrim fan and have logged 1500+ hrs over the years. Haven't played the game in a week. I bought Far Cry 3 through Origin, not Steam and have been playing it. Stopped working on my mods as well. I just stopped in to see if anything new had happened.

Every time I tried to turn the game on it was different somehow, tainted so to speak. Like a girlfriend that slept with your buddy. You want to forgive but don't know how. lol

It will peter out people are not instantly going to stop taking about it just because Dark0ne says so.

[Farvahar]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside the day to day commitment of being a part of society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

[Pevey]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good. Edited May 2, 2015 by LP1

[Tyerial12]

In response to post #24873139. #24874159, #24874314, #24874474, #24874519, #24874634, #24874639, #24874729, #24874774, #24874924, #24874984, #24875019, #24875044, #24875074, #24875124, #24875219, #24875289, #24875334, #24875454, #24875484, #24875669, #24876774, #24876829, #24877709, #24877889, #24877969, #24878254, #24878299, #24878569, #24878604, #24878759, #24879069, #24879579, #24879589, #24882059, #24884249, #24885029, #24885084, #24885349, #24885354, #24885399, #24885969, #24885999, #24887819, #24887979, #24888049, #24888949, #24889684 are all replies on the same post.

thefinn wrote: I doubt they will drop this.

They will do more research than smoking some doobies in the coffee lounge at valve and saying "You know what would be cool ?" then we'll see something similar coming up again in the future.

There's way too much money involved for this to go away.

Personally, if they'd just add a "donate" button and not try to "sell mods" that might go down better.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: With the next TES game, I could see them charging for the Creation Kit, and then setting it so you have to "share" your mods on a specific website they control, and then charging people a flat-access rate to the website.

Oh, and I can see them releasing the next TES game even more incomplete than Skyrim. Release a barebones game, make money off it, then let the modders finish your game, and make money off of that too. I bet I've just given some pencil pusher at Bethesda a 3-inch erection.

wulfharth wrote: That's called an alpha release, and that happens everyday.

Bethesda has always tried hard to keep everyone happy (except with the exclusive DLC period releases). They just wanted to give people who make mods a chance to do it for a living. Shame on them for creating jobs and stimulating the mod community. They should all kill themselves. Right? Should I make a sign protest mod about them offering opportunity?

How do I block this guy? The option isn't at the bottom of his posts.

wulfharth wrote: Ha! I found out where to do it, but I can't block you Vesuvius1745 because you've never contributed a mod, so you aren't listed as an author.

So why again do you feel you have the right to have an opinion on what actual mod contributor's are allowed to do with their mods? You aren't even one of us.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, my mistake. I didn't realize the corporation known as Bethesda was being altruistic, and just wanted to stimulate the economy while at the same time giving amateur mod authors their Big Break. You're not only a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, you're a glass-is-half-full when it's actually empty kind of guy.

Instead of trying to make a buck off of mod authors, they should concentrate on making sure the next TES release is stable and complete. Yes, game companies are releasing their games earlier and earlier, and frankly, many gamers are sick of paying to Beta test unfinished products.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Good question, wulth. As someone who paid for Skyrim, I have the same right as the 133,000+ other people who signed the petition given to Bethesda telling them what we thought of this pay-for system.

I suspect the pencil pusher who came up with this idea is probably shaking in his boots. Wondering if he will have a job next month. Maybe he's even trolling these forums to test the waters, and not liking what he is seeing.

thefinn wrote: Well I am a pretty harsh critic of games, I think Skyrim is one of the best I've played in years.

There might've been some bugs at launch, but few are the games you'll find without them and frankly with the size of Skyrim they are to be expected.

I don't see how it was "incomplete".

wulfharth wrote: @Vesuvius-Instead of telling super successful multi-million dollar corporations with giant and loyal fan bases how to run their businesses, you should go try and make a dungeon or create and add a custom 3D model. I'm sure you'll change your tune very quickly.

You have no frame of reference for what it means or takes to be a mod author. Stop telling everyone what to do or what they should do. You aren't qualified.

thefinn wrote: The difference being that the question for you is "Can I still get free stuff?" while the question for modders is "Is this a system I find reasonable to work with?"

The only saving grace to me was the thought that perhaps I should start putting together my feminine walk mod again to be paid for, or to be the free alternative to the other mod of its' kind. It actually made me think this (for the very small mods I have done) it was in fact my first thought.

So it can indeed instill the impetus in modders to mod.

However, the drawbacks of the current idea are awful.

It leaves the door open for game companies to make mods "steam only" in the future for benefits to the bottom line for instance.

wulfharth wrote: The official paid DLC is Steam only. Why not the smaller not official but sanctioned DLC? We always have the Nexus if modders want to choose to throw up an donate button to not get pressed and give free work to the sweet and loving community.

thefinn wrote: You're missing the point.

They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded.

And they would be...
1) In their rights to do so.
2) getting more profits by doing so and they are corporations you know?

Reaper0021 wrote: thefinn is right in that regard. IF THEY WANTED to be tyrannical about it that is.

thefinn wrote: And when have you known corporations not to be ?

DRM itself had huge backlash at the time... but here it is still.

Reaper0021 wrote: I agree with you thefinn. I'll tell you one that isn't and I defy you to say otherwise: CDProjekt Red. But in all aspects of this you're 100% right.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Wulf, your ad hominem aside, I'm not going to post my resume because it's irrelevant. Every person who bought Skyrim (they are called customers) have an absolute right to tell Bethesda what they think of their business practices. It doesn't matter if not a single one of those 133,000 people who signed the petition never wrote a mod, or has not done something YOU think "qualifies" them to giver their opinion. They still get to give it.

Of course Bethesda is under no obligation to listen to their customers. In this case they did. They probably also realized what a Hiroshima-type disaster this was, and if they were smart, fired the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity.

wulfharth wrote: If Bethesda wanted to be tyrants, they probably wouldn't have out of pocketed to provide and update the creation kit. And that's just for the PC gamers mind you. That is a special gift just to us that is more valuable than any 10 mods on here. You should feel loved and have more faith in them.

wulfharth wrote: Vesuvius-You are Bethesda's customer. Not mine. I don't want your made up resume. All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod. You aren't a modder. Why are you telling us what we can do with our work?

Reaper0021 wrote: It's not about lack of love or faith. It's about common business practices. A business remains a business as long as it can "TURN A PROFIT" and when it can't no longer (ATARI, Commodore, SEGA, etc.) then it stops becoming a business and becomes a share holders nightmare. All of this is just theory talk...but in the back of my mind I remain cautious about what the future holds.

thefinn wrote: Totally agree, if I were going to have love or faith (without going to church) it'd be in the Nexus, not some new system Valve has talked Bethesda into.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work". As Bethesda's customers, we explained to them we did not want a pay-for paradigm for mods. We gave our opinion, which as customers we have every right to give. They didn't have to listen to their customers, but they did. Since Bethesda owns the Intellectual property rights to Skyrim, and mod authors sign their EULA accepting their contract, it is Bethesda who gets to tell mod authors what they can or cannot do with their derivative creations. If a mod author is upset by that, then they should take it up with Bethesda. Or mod for a game that allows paid-for mods. Whining about it here, or getting upset with the people who bought Skyrim and gave their opinion, is not going to be fruitful.

Reaper0021 wrote: And to continue on this point by Vesuvius1745....when I give my $$$$ for anything in this world be it new tires, PC parts, cable T.V./internet, books, food, games, music, etc. I HAVE the right as a paying customer to offer my critique or displeasure or ANYTHING with what I paid for if it doesn't meet my expectations as a customer. I don't have to be a tire manufacturer to offer my opinion that I like Firestone better than the other brands. You make no sense man in your argument. You act as if we are indebted to Bethesda and I can assure you it's the other way around. Kudos given to Vesuvius1745.

crashpilot wrote: @Wulfharth,

Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours.

Pauliwhop wrote: You don't have to be a doctor to sue for Malpractice. Try again.

treota wrote: "All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod, so you are not a modder" - This is basically the same as telling a carpenter they aren't valid because they have never carved mahogany, who is to say that he has never contributed anything to any modding scene for any game ever created or even created content that he didn't feel like uploading.

More close to home telling a critic that their opinion is worthless because they have never done what they critique (which is pretty common).

I'm 99% sure that there are plenty of food critics for example that have never been professional chefs.

thefinn wrote: The fact that your chair is made of wood, doesn't make you a carpenter.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."

Nicholas Butler

treota wrote: The carpenter idea was based on the person having modded something at some point in their life which is probably (not always of course) the case if said person has a keen interest in modding.

Being a creator does not make your opinion more or less valid than your consumer. :)

oldnotweak wrote: we need a block function so every mod author can block Vesuvius and people like him

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Oldnottweak It would be easier to just take all your mods off the Nexus, otherwise you will have to block about aprox. 133,000+ people (the number of people who signed that petition given to Bethesda).

And since we are blocking people who think differently than us, then maybe the "Forever Free" modders will block YOU from all of their mods, and the programmers of ENB, SKSE, Wyre Bash, and every other utility you've benefited from can block your IP so you can no longer download their stuff.

It can be a giant block festival. Wouldn't that be fun?

Ghatto wrote: Oh yeah that wouldn't go horribly wrong now would it?

thefinn wrote: Being a creator doesn't make my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the mod sure.

However, being the creator makes my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the system by which I make (or not) money off my creation.

Otherwise we'd be looking at a society where we had no money at all.
Noone would ever want to pay for anything and that'd be it.

So obviously the people at say Mattel decide that they are gonna charge money for their s#*!.

Your opinion on that matter ... doesn't matter. Where there's money to be made - corporations go.

At this point paid modding will be coming in. There's little doubt of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-01-sooner-or-later-paid-for-mods-are-coming

The only question remains "how?" and "when?"

The system itself is important, and if people want to enter a discussion saying "there shouldn't be a system" they are just gonna be ignored by I'd have to say - the large majority of modders and likely valve too. Expect it.

From Gabe's comments he's aware of the fact they screwed up by using Skyrim as the entry point for this change in the platform on steam. This probably means there will be years before we see a Bethesda game take on paid modding. (Fallout IV or TES VI most likely).

The issue remains will it start to encroach on the nexus, will it stifle modding ?!

Will the word "modding" merely change meaning - like so many other things do over time (and usually not for the better).

For instance what happens if the Unofficial Skyrim Patch goes paid ?

HEAPS of other modders have to change their mods (Through TESVEdit) to encompass changes in USP each time Arthmoor updates it. Otherwise their mods overwrite his changes.

Do they have to pay for USP ? That seems like a fairly central issue too - dependencies.

There are still a lot of question for Bethesda imo.
I'm not sure if I'm for or against the whole idea.

Ghatto wrote: I disagree. I don't see why my opinion shouldn't retain value simply because it criticises the system as a whole and makes clear my desire to go without it. I understand how it positions myself in the argument as 'either/or' rather than compromise but that's that. Yes it's a see-saw that goes both ways; government policy has been that decisive for generations and we could all benefit on compromise there, but unfortunately that still doesn't work because it then creates a new 'either/or' which is instead a 'enjoy compromise/suffer compromise'.

Tyerial12 wrote: problem is we know its comming but mod authors better be aware pirates will come as well.

Someone will buy your mod then release it on free sites anonomsly and bam free mod

WightMage wrote: Have we really come to this?

treota wrote: @thefinn
I agree with pretty much everything there, however the consumer does vastly dictate the payment platform. If consumers disagree with the way said creators make money then they will not spend their money there and the creator will have no choice but to try a different way of making money. (for the record I totally agree paid mods are here to stay, nothing to be done about it now)

Which is where the somewhat wrong saying comes from "the customer is always right". (yeah I hate that crap too, worked in retail for a few years and that line just grinds the gears) It is true in the sense that if the customer disagrees then your job and livelihood is down the drain.

Any opinion is the same value as any other opinion, it's the person who decides which opinions are more or less valid to them personally.

wulfharth wrote: @crashpilot- Good morning. I had a lot more up, but I pulled them down because the community showed how appreciative it is. I'm re-working most of it to release when paid mods come back. Which will probably be with TES6. If you check the credits in the top 20 file "Immersive Weapons", you will see that I made that entire dragonbone weapon set. You've likely been using my weapons for years.

I've pulled everything down. The more our community shows it's true colors, the more mod authors will follow suit.

Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth lol oh well then guess we dont see your mods for free it dont bother me one bit.. Ill give my money to non chilish mod authors

np11 wrote: @wulfharth Good PR there, I'd love to see how many people who've actually seen you post will buy these fabled mods.

People, before you start selling things, you should really take some business, marketing or even psychology classes. Addressing potential customers like that and expecting your business to flourish... Good luck with that.

Tanesis12 wrote: @ Vesuvius1745 I think that paid mods will be on the next Beth game, whether TES or FO. I don't think however it will imact quality as that would be a second pr disaster that Beth don't need.

@ thefinn "They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded."

I think that Beth would want more control over modding in general if theres money involved. If only 1 site was allowed to run paid mods then mod authors would obviously prefere that site if they directly benefitted (I think?).

Incorporation of real life monies will change the way people use mods drasitcally and alter the relationship between mod author and mod consumer, the later who is now a customer (who should be able to expect certain consumer rights but thats a different issue). I can't help but feel that when, rather than if, mods become paid the only real winners will be Beth & Valve.

Also good posts thefinn, nicely insightful.

3AMt wrote: Horse armors, swords and hats for 1.99 each for everyone. Yeah have fun selling mods.

Brasscatcher wrote: I do try to avoid name calling, but I will call stupid behavior what it is. Most of this thread is full of stupid. Go ahead, accept Bethesda's offer. I bet every single one of you won't see a single bit of useful profit from anything you create. If you think trash-talking or belittling part of the community, or attempting to invalidate the opinions of one part of the community will net you anything, you are incorrect.


Stop being stupid. Be productive instead.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Wulfharth

You should toughen your emotional "skin" if you want to stay in the modders community.
People like vesuvius will ALWAYS have DEMANDS, stupid and irrelevant for you.

Because THAT is what he want to smoke screen behind his fancy words and pseudo arguments, his pitiful demands.

Hi have paid for Skyrim game? ... good for him.
But he HAD NOT paid for YOUR or ANYONE mod, he could comment as long as he wish about Skyrim but when talking about your mods, your acts and your decisions, he's pure and simple hypocrite.

Again, if you paid for Skyrim

fru1tcak3s wrote: > charging for the Creation Kit

Open source creation kit :P

wulfharth wrote: I don't need to have good PR with people who think they deserve everything for free. That's a pretty crappy customer base to build.

I'm moving on to another mod community. This one will be dead fairly soon. Be well all. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Brasscatcher wrote: Well...bye! :)

thefinn wrote: Yeah tend to agree, I think TB/Dark0ne/Brumbek say it best here:

If you're just downloading and not contributing, not a forum user, not even hitting the endorse button - then who cares what your opinion is? It's only going to be the usual kinds of self-serving entitled crap that we see everywhere else on the net.

np11 wrote: @wulfharth How crappy the customer base is is irrelevant. You want their money and you want to make a profit. That's all a business needs to know. If your customers are becoming a huge bother, you can deny them services, but you need to do so as politely as possible. The moment you start bickering and being aggressive to your customers, you've lost the game. Look at Valve and Bethesda's responses for god's sake. You'll get a feel of what a professional response should be like.

Well, have fun and good luck then.

WightMage wrote: @np11

As someone who works in customer service and has their own business on the side, I could not agree more.

@wulfharth

For one i dont believe or want everything FREE i want a fair and working system that makes sure when we BUY A MOD that it works as it should and if it dosent we get more than one day for a refund or a way to contact the mod author if we want a fix. Prob is if a mod author just quits doing it means NOW the user is stuck with a broken mod.

also people are going to charge WAY to much for a mod that just adds one item or changes a couple textures. there needs to be a limit on this

But with the way your acting good luck on your future bussiness practices

[Farvahar]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).

What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative. Edited May 2, 2015 by sunshinenbrick