Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

[Darkarhon]

In response to post #24907724. #24908549, #24909709 are all replies on the same post.

soupdragon1234 wrote:

I'm pretty sure the next Bethesda big game will be Fallout 4, not TES6, especially not after this fiasco

 

 

Games have such a long development cycle time that a storm in a teacup such as this will have no bearing on it. Pay mods will come and since authors work is apparently "worthless" it simply removes any sense of guilt they might have felt about monetizing them.

 

Good luck guys and don't look back. :thumbsup:

retnav98 wrote: Skyrim is a GAME...that has exceeded its shelflife. I watch the feedback from the Valve announcement .nearing 5000 responses to the " We STILL think there are good ideas here" Yada yada yada. The commenters may have had Console copies of Skyrim.. I did, and then I purchased the game 2 more times for PC and spent 2 more years playing and modding. The majority of response posts come from people who have little to NO recent involvement with the PC game.

So who are they? Who is screaming one minute and then offering their new-found respect the next? I'd say that there was some dastardly agenda afoot if it weren't for the simple truth...TESV has reached 8% of it's original sale price; Its time is past as Games go.

It'll be hard NOT to look back..

Enidehalas wrote: Should have been more clear, but I meant "the next big game Bethesda will annonce". And I think it will be fallout 4 exactly because of developpement times (makes more sense than TES6, it must be around pre alpha, not enough for public annoncement)

And I think this fiasco does have an impact, not on the release date, but on the annoncement date. I'm pretty sure FO4 was to be annonced in E3 soon, with or without paid mods (but I'm pretty sure there WILL BE paid mods), and they just wanted to get the backlash early with an "old game". This will make the annoncements schedule/strategy a bit different I think. They can't afford bad publicity.

It's a good portion of the difference between "a game that sold in big piles" like Oblivion, and a game that sold in "OMFGWTF CRAPLOAD of piles" like skyrim

Its obviously Fallout4

[Xavathos]

In response to post #24893994. #24894334, #24895424, #24895624, #24897434, #24900349, #24901119, #24907214 are all replies on the same post.

fearalice wrote: Not to undermine the big news post made by someone with authority/power (sorry, but i am not social enough on this site to know who ".Dark0ne" is, nor any other names that have been tossed around), but when an issue like this comes up that many people feel strongly about it's not going to immediately quiet down with a "Okay everyone, it's done lets move on". Some are still not happy with the aftermath. Some are still concerned with "Okay, steam and bethesda backed off for now, but what's next?". It's basically like ACTA and all of it's incarnations. This one failed, now they'll try again, and again, and again until the public outcry isn't strong enough for them to have to retract it again and then bam, it's basically written in stone from that point on.

For one, i love mods. They make good games great, and incomplete/broken games playable. But the best part is they are free. Bethesda put out a largely flawed game missing tons and with plenty to be fixed. This is evidenced by the existence of the unofficial skyrim patch, dawnguard patch, hearthfire patch... See a trend? Even their DLC has glaring issues they didn't even bother to fix. So give it ten years, when paid modding is the norm and we have lazy, greedy developers who put out just enough to be modded then work on dlc. Then we have to spend another 60 dollars through mods to get the game to how it should be. All the while the developers/steam will be seeing profits off of all 120+ dollars it takes to play a game. All it will do is promote piracy further, and i'm pretty sure that's something developers, vendors, and modders who charge for their content do not want.

I'm not even going to get into the flaws of the system, since this post is not about that.

My reason for typing all this up even though it'll likely get burried and read by next to no one is that i feel the ONLY way to show just how much against this we (who are against it anyway) are is to keep voicing it. If Steam's most recent attempt to see how much further into our wallets they can dig is met with massive resistance that just dies out as soon as it's redacted temporarily, it's just going to be that much faster that the next attempt comes around.

I know there are a lot who do disagree with this view point, and that's okay. But to just say "Okay guys, lets move on" and to just drop it would be a mistake, sorry for disagreeing with the OP on this.

-Edited to remove obnoxious smiley

WightMage wrote: FYI: Dark0ne, also known as "Robin Scott," is the founder and owner of the Nexus. (his name is at the bottom)

Good points though.

DCWillis wrote: We already have game producers ripping content from the games so they can sell it as dlc material. Angry Joe points this out often on his youtube videos. So they have already turned a $60 game into $75 - $100 and paid mods just makes it worse.

I was so fired up by the upcoming E3 that I have a sticky note on the edge of my screen to insure I did not miss it. Not that hyped anymore and if TES6 is announced I will not buy it straight away. The game will be mediocre without mods and if they make them paid mods, they can keep the game.

Fowldragon wrote: If you look at the 3 preceeding blog pieces and take those comments into account, There has been a significant exchange of opinion position and unintended emoticons...

Your post will sit here for a LONG time with a large number of people reading it...Nobody has abandoned their positions...everyone though is moving on...

Tyerial12 wrote: @DCWillis i second that.. if it goes to a full paid to get mods and have to buy the game they can keep it.

or maybe ill just play it vannila depending how bugged it is

jacquelope wrote: I think the author meant move on as in stop bashing the mod authors, Bethesda, etc. and get on with being fans. I don't think the OP meant stop crusading against paid mods.

Bashing them or raging in general, won't solve anything. We're just kicking the ghost of a dead horse. However you're right on one thing: the price of preventing the dominance of paid mods is ETERNAL VIGILANCE. We do need to send Bethesda a message that we won't patronize paid mods. That works far better than just bashing. Spamming Steam Workshop with ASCII pictures of tanks and all that stuff, was counter productive. It threatened to make Valve look like the victim of a wild internet riot. At a certain point it makes people turn off and decide "hey maybe the paid mod idea is right, these opposition guys are IRRATIONAL." Most of all, Gabe Newell has a free speech policy on his site (as evidenced by the ASCII tank nonsense) - a riot like what he faced right on Steam Workshop could be a huge message to other companies: FREE SPEECH IS BAD, M'K?

The angry calls to Valve did cost them a lot of money and on that I'm ambivalent. How do you cost them millions without coming across as a bunch of Internet ruffians? Still, that worked. (However I hope people aren't still doing that.)

We should take a page from the Sims fanbase playbook. Paid mods exist for the Sims franchise (well, technically they're locked up behind paid subscription sites) but they are rare in that community, or at least they don't dominate (see: ModTheSims and NRAAS). There's been four generations of Sims games so far and paid mods (or, mods hosted behind paysites) have never risen to dominance. How did they do that? What can we learn from their strategy? Their success offers an answer to what message we should send ALL gaming companies who are pondering this move.

Riprock wrote: yes, I do disagree. And I disagree because the alternative is to keep picking the scab in a descending spiral. We either move on or we live this moment forever, bringing up old argument again and again and again and starting the same misconceptions again and again and arguing those same misunderstood things again and again. Once was enough for me.

It happened, nobody's really happy with the outcome, people are mad for...reasons...and people will do what they are gonna do regardless of more verbose explanations and exclamations. been there done that, the world still spins.

Enidehalas wrote: I'm pretty sure the next Bethesda big game will be Fallout 4, not TES6, especially not after this fiasco

@Riprock

I couldn't agree more. This so called discussion has gone on for long enough, it's time we moved on. What happened, happened, and what's going to happen, will happen regardless of our speculation about it here, as we've all seen with this event. We're only causing more divide and more damage by keeping this a hot topic. Let it go.

[jace14]

I heard your conversation with tb it was very interesting. If I'm being completely selfish here, hearing and learning all the different viewpoints on this was almost worth all the mess. I think I'm about ready to stop learning now though ;) Edited May 3, 2015 by jace14

[fireundubh]

In response to post #24882324. #24883664, #24905379, #24907119 are all replies on the same post.

strudo wrote:

I feel the donation system as it stands is flawed in that any suggestion of donating appears during the download phase, before it's even been played. I'd hazard that people aren't likely to want to donate for a mod they haven't even commenced downloading yet, and once it parts of the extensive list of mods, tracking down a particular mod on Nexus to donate probably doesn't get a look in.

I'd like to see the mod managers get on board, offering the option there of donating. Perhaps a function that can list mods sorted by length of time installed, which would offer users a method of seeing which of their list of mods have 'stood the test of time' so to speak, and are worthy of revisiting on the Nexus and making a donation.

MO has an icon for not endorsed mods. Maybe an icon for not donated (that can just be cleared manually, or the ability to highlight a mod with a donate reminder (for mod users in their individual mod manager, not by mod authors to apply to all downloads of their mod). The point being it needs to be something in the mod manager, since the donate options on Nexus only get seen when visiting the site, which occurs much less frequently when actually playing the content which is under consideration for donations.

jbvertexx wrote: I agree. Donating at download is not the time and place.

I like the list of mods that you have previously downloaded that pops up once in a while. Perhaps offer the option to endorse and donate in this list. It is a good, well placed, and well timed reminder.

strudo wrote: It would be a great start there, but still requires the user to visit the Nexus site to see that list. Once a player has got their mod setup running and ready to play, they will visit the Nexus far less frequently, and hence not see the messages.

I use MO, so not sure how NMM works, but I need to start MO every time I play, so a reminder there would be the perfect place.

Enidehalas wrote: I think the "donate" at the download page is mostly to make the option known. You will never give anything to anyone before even playing, of course, but when you come back to endorse, you will know the option exists, and you have it in mind during the whole playthru.

That's when to remind people. Everybody who donate, endorse too, none who doesn't endorse, donate

We've been told that the donation message will be moved from download to endorsement. Fewer people will see the message, of course, but that's okay, as long as the message is reaching the people who most like a mod.

[hafizlordfeast]

In response to post #24896494. #24899599, #24903244 are all replies on the same post.

hafizlordfeast wrote: Considering that you, Mr. Dark0ne or Mr. Robin Scott (If I got the right guy), read the comments, may I suggest something about the endorsements? Considering that the Nexus community seems to prioritize endorsement and it will considered disrespectful or unhelpful for someone to use the mod but not recommend it enough, by not press the endorsement button. So, something probably need to do about this problem.

I will say that it's been a long time since I ever download mods (Considering that my computer broke, and all I do is tracking mods until I buy a new great computer), but I do remember that it will take one hour for the Nexus to allow you to endorse. Because it will probably be a hassle after downloading multiple mods at one time, which make me forget to endorse the mods that I used. Other issue is my internet is so slow, it will annoy me to even bother, browsing each mod page again to endorse.

My suggestion is this, one hour after the mod download is done, when visiting the Nexus again after that, there should be a pop-up message and listed the mods that you have downloaded and ask if you want to endorse them or not. Sort of like checking list, which makes it much better. Should also make the "Cancel" button if the mod doesn't deserve the endorsement.

I don't know this kind of request have been done before, and I'm sorry for probably being rude to tell someone to make something on this web page that myself, have no contribution to it whatsoever. But people do care about endorsement and recommendation, both mod users and mod makers alike. Just to let you know.

Razzeil wrote: I use NMM you can endorse from it.

Tyerial12 wrote: can from mod organizer as well <endorse is key =D

So the mod managers can be used to endorse, huh? Sorry if I don't know this considering I never got to play Skyrim anymore. But, I do think it's better if the pop-up message that I stated need to be implemented as well. People usually don't look twice even if the endorse button is right in front of them, IMO.

Just a more clear reminder for mod users to at least endorse the mod that they fond of, and need to be supported. I don't know how the mod managers setting up the endorse button, but if the mod users still doesn't press it, then they need to be told again to press it.

Someone might feel annoyed if there was a pop-up message, but it's not like you downloading mods every day. Edited May 3, 2015 by hafizlordfeast

[phantompally76]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434, #24891459, #24892539, #24892854, #24893109, #24893609, #24894184, #24895989, #24896889, #24897119, #24900929 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).

What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.

shaithlis wrote: By: LP1
"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "

It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.

My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.

LP1 wrote: And you will be missed by exactly no one. No one will even notice. That is my point.

Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: May I point out that people will also have the choice to buy them or not.

I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"

I'm lovin' it

WightMage wrote: Wrong. Someone will miss them, because its a tragedy that he's leaving because of people with your attitude.

Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.

People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "What's done is done.

I need you cool...

...Are you cool?


I'm cool."



-Reservoir Dogs-

LP1 wrote: Yes, sunshine, as I said before, if a mod author chooses to attach a price tag to their work, I have the choice to buy it or not. It's called economic freedom. Voting with dollars. Everyone has that choice to buy or not. So why are you so upset at the idea of mod creators having a choice to charge or not? Like I said before, we don't have to like everyone's economic decisions. We don't have to agree with or support them. But they have a right to make them. Demanding otherwise is the very definition of entitlement.

aegiltheugly wrote: LP1 - I have know idea who you are but PLEASE, let me know what all your mods are so I can be sure I never insult you by downloading one.

Tyerial12 wrote: @lp1 its authors like you that give a bad name to other good mod authors. thinking your better than someone who cant mod this is just bs lol.. Mod authors would make way less money without the users so if we not important dont bother making paid mods cause there be no USERS to buy them.... Skyrim can get along just fine without mods but it cant without players. So stop your self rightousness for once in your life. you are one person i wouldnt mind see leaving.

To other mod authors im sorry if i posted or said anything harmfull. i do believe you guys should make money. im just hoping not all the great mods go pay to have because that will be the end of free mods sites sooner or later asall the good mods will behind paywalls and soon even that will die as alot of people will just be done with skyrim as you noticed by the petition to free the mods.. Thats more people that that against so my thoughts on that.

@aegilitheugly haha i wanna know aswell so if im using them i remove them for good.. his name is now written down so i never download or pay for a mod from him-her-it

Riprock wrote: Reality check please, table one ;)

This is the internet. No matter what is 'said' to anyone, the anonymous nature of the internet promotes a sort of 'hear no evil see no evil' scenario unless a thing is in the here and now, excepting of course, people that actually put stock in the consequence-less titters of people that know darned well they are safe from reprisal so long as they attack through the ether, hold a grudge. Now, holding a grudge is your business although I will advise you that it is a soul-crushing way to look at life particularly in regards to something said online, and you can cherish any hurts you want to hold to your heart as long as you like. But please let's understand something. Assuming that what somebody says online is anything but spewed vitriol that has no forethought and no recognition that the narcissist element of the internet (me me me! ) is self-deception, is an exercise in futility. In other words: bullspit posted online is just that. We as a society put this strange and enormous emotional pricetag on the onlines. hell, people commit suicide over some online mumbo-jumbo, which is pretty out there. Always remember: words posted online are and always will only be words on a screen. They are almost always a bunch of hooey, especially when said in anger.

Curiously, LP1's syntax and sentence structure is identical to that of a certain Skyrim mod author we haven't heard much from during this ordeal. But that's just a coincidence.

[TaboriHK]

I hope the donation thing is figured out/streamlined because at this point, it's the best way I can think of to tell the people that made this site what it is "thanks for what you do."

[VaporWatch]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434, #24891459, #24892539, #24892854, #24893109, #24893609, #24894184, #24895989, #24896889, #24897119, #24900929, #24914124 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).

What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.

shaithlis wrote: By: LP1
"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "

It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.

My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.

LP1 wrote: And you will be missed by exactly no one. No one will even notice. That is my point.

Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: May I point out that people will also have the choice to buy them or not.

I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"

I'm lovin' it

WightMage wrote: Wrong. Someone will miss them, because its a tragedy that he's leaving because of people with your attitude.

Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.

People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "What's done is done.

I need you cool...

...Are you cool?


I'm cool."



-Reservoir Dogs-

LP1 wrote: Yes, sunshine, as I said before, if a mod author chooses to attach a price tag to their work, I have the choice to buy it or not. It's called economic freedom. Voting with dollars. Everyone has that choice to buy or not. So why are you so upset at the idea of mod creators having a choice to charge or not? Like I said before, we don't have to like everyone's economic decisions. We don't have to agree with or support them. But they have a right to make them. Demanding otherwise is the very definition of entitlement.

aegiltheugly wrote: LP1 - I have know idea who you are but PLEASE, let me know what all your mods are so I can be sure I never insult you by downloading one.

Tyerial12 wrote: @lp1 its authors like you that give a bad name to other good mod authors. thinking your better than someone who cant mod this is just bs lol.. Mod authors would make way less money without the users so if we not important dont bother making paid mods cause there be no USERS to buy them.... Skyrim can get along just fine without mods but it cant without players. So stop your self rightousness for once in your life. you are one person i wouldnt mind see leaving.

To other mod authors im sorry if i posted or said anything harmfull. i do believe you guys should make money. im just hoping not all the great mods go pay to have because that will be the end of free mods sites sooner or later asall the good mods will behind paywalls and soon even that will die as alot of people will just be done with skyrim as you noticed by the petition to free the mods.. Thats more people that that against so my thoughts on that.

@aegilitheugly haha i wanna know aswell so if im using them i remove them for good.. his name is now written down so i never download or pay for a mod from him-her-it

Riprock wrote: Reality check please, table one ;)

This is the internet. No matter what is 'said' to anyone, the anonymous nature of the internet promotes a sort of 'hear no evil see no evil' scenario unless a thing is in the here and now, excepting of course, people that actually put stock in the consequence-less titters of people that know darned well they are safe from reprisal so long as they attack through the ether, hold a grudge. Now, holding a grudge is your business although I will advise you that it is a soul-crushing way to look at life particularly in regards to something said online, and you can cherish any hurts you want to hold to your heart as long as you like. But please let's understand something. Assuming that what somebody says online is anything but spewed vitriol that has no forethought and no recognition that the narcissist element of the internet (me me me! ) is self-deception, is an exercise in futility. In other words: bullspit posted online is just that. We as a society put this strange and enormous emotional pricetag on the onlines. hell, people commit suicide over some online mumbo-jumbo, which is pretty out there. Always remember: words posted online are and always will only be words on a screen. They are almost always a bunch of hooey, especially when said in anger.

phantompally76 wrote: Curiously, LP1's syntax and sentence structure is identical to that of a certain Skyrim mod author we haven't heard much from during this ordeal. But that's just a coincidence.

I totally agree mod authors should be allowed to put a price tag on their work, assuming the price is refundable if the mod author's work turns out to be dung. The mod author should also be able to receive the lion's share of the price paid for their work (and this was where I had the most issue with last week's fiasco). I know many of the mod authors put incredible amounts of time and effort into their works and, yes, that work should be rewarded in a more concrete way, should they choose to go that route.

@LP1. Saying "mod users aren't as important as mod authors" is the same thing as saying "children aren't as important as adults". I've been playing Skyrim for about a year and modding Skyrim for......um.....about a month, maybe two. Yup, I'm what y'all call a "noob". So I fit in exactly that range of people you are, essentially, saying are useless, right? So, let me ask you......where did you start? Did you download Skyrim for the first time and immediately set out to modding it? Did you pop your modding cherry by creating Falskaar? I could very well be wrong here but I assume most mod authors started out as mod users first and became mod authors because the available mods weren't meeting their needs/wants so they learned how to make their own, yes? I mean, if a mod author started creating mods with the specific intention to make money from them......well.....isn't it kinda dumb to expect to be paid for making mods before you have the ability to charge for making mods? Yes, it's entirely possible you started creating mods for Skyrim before ever downloading a single mod for Skyrim......but you had to start somewhere, right? You had to be a mod user before being a mod author, regardless for what game, right?

So......as I said, I've only been on the Nexus for about a month, but I've already started learning how to use the Creation Kit and Nifskope and I've actually created a few mods, just playing around. At what point to I cease my uselessness? How much to I need to contribute before I am as important as you are?

The simple fact is, "leeches" (as you so eloquently put it) ARE important to this community because without "leeches", there would be nobody to become mod authors. Mod authors who don't see that as rampant arrogance are just fooling themselves. Edited May 3, 2015 by VaporWatch

[VaporWatch]

In response to post #24896494. #24899599, #24903244, #24913194 are all replies on the same post.

hafizlordfeast wrote: Considering that you, Mr. Dark0ne or Mr. Robin Scott (If I got the right guy), read the comments, may I suggest something about the endorsements? Considering that the Nexus community seems to prioritize endorsement and it will considered disrespectful or unhelpful for someone to use the mod but not recommend it enough, by not press the endorsement button. So, something probably need to do about this problem.

I will say that it's been a long time since I ever download mods (Considering that my computer broke, and all I do is tracking mods until I buy a new great computer), but I do remember that it will take one hour for the Nexus to allow you to endorse. Because it will probably be a hassle after downloading multiple mods at one time, which make me forget to endorse the mods that I used. Other issue is my internet is so slow, it will annoy me to even bother, browsing each mod page again to endorse.

My suggestion is this, one hour after the mod download is done, when visiting the Nexus again after that, there should be a pop-up message and listed the mods that you have downloaded and ask if you want to endorse them or not. Sort of like checking list, which makes it much better. Should also make the "Cancel" button if the mod doesn't deserve the endorsement.

I don't know this kind of request have been done before, and I'm sorry for probably being rude to tell someone to make something on this web page that myself, have no contribution to it whatsoever. But people do care about endorsement and recommendation, both mod users and mod makers alike. Just to let you know.

Razzeil wrote: I use NMM you can endorse from it.

Tyerial12 wrote: can from mod organizer as well <endorse is key =D

hafizlordfeast wrote: So the mod managers can be used to endorse, huh? Sorry if I don't know this considering I never got to play Skyrim anymore. But, I do think it's better if the pop-up message that I stated need to be implemented as well. People usually don't look twice even if the endorse button is right in front of them, IMO.

Just a more clear reminder for mod users to at least endorse the mod that they fond of, and need to be supported. I don't know how the mod managers setting up the endorse button, but if the mod users still doesn't press it, then they need to be told again to press it.

Someone might feel annoyed if there was a pop-up message, but it's not like you downloading mods every day.

When I download a new mod, I usually get a pop-up reminding me of the mods I haven't endorsed and giving me the chance to endorse them. Is this not the same for everyone? Is it because I mainly use NMM to download?

[Acedor1566]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434, #24891459, #24892539, #24892854, #24893109, #24893609, #24894184, #24895989, #24896889, #24897119, #24900929, #24914124, #24916444 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.

Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?

It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.

LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.

So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.

Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tat

LP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1

While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.

I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.

While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.

My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.

Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".

Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population

but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then

see ya

Farvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:

I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.

I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.

I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.

LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.

Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:

1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at

If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.

If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.

You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).

What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.

shaithlis wrote: By: LP1
"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "

It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.

My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.

LP1 wrote: And you will be missed by exactly no one. No one will even notice. That is my point.

Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: May I point out that people will also have the choice to buy them or not.

I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"

I'm lovin' it

WightMage wrote: Wrong. Someone will miss them, because its a tragedy that he's leaving because of people with your attitude.

Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.

People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "What's done is done.

I need you cool...

...Are you cool?


I'm cool."



-Reservoir Dogs-

LP1 wrote: Yes, sunshine, as I said before, if a mod author chooses to attach a price tag to their work, I have the choice to buy it or not. It's called economic freedom. Voting with dollars. Everyone has that choice to buy or not. So why are you so upset at the idea of mod creators having a choice to charge or not? Like I said before, we don't have to like everyone's economic decisions. We don't have to agree with or support them. But they have a right to make them. Demanding otherwise is the very definition of entitlement.

aegiltheugly wrote: LP1 - I have know idea who you are but PLEASE, let me know what all your mods are so I can be sure I never insult you by downloading one.

Tyerial12 wrote: @lp1 its authors like you that give a bad name to other good mod authors. thinking your better than someone who cant mod this is just bs lol.. Mod authors would make way less money without the users so if we not important dont bother making paid mods cause there be no USERS to buy them.... Skyrim can get along just fine without mods but it cant without players. So stop your self rightousness for once in your life. you are one person i wouldnt mind see leaving.

To other mod authors im sorry if i posted or said anything harmfull. i do believe you guys should make money. im just hoping not all the great mods go pay to have because that will be the end of free mods sites sooner or later asall the good mods will behind paywalls and soon even that will die as alot of people will just be done with skyrim as you noticed by the petition to free the mods.. Thats more people that that against so my thoughts on that.

@aegilitheugly haha i wanna know aswell so if im using them i remove them for good.. his name is now written down so i never download or pay for a mod from him-her-it

Riprock wrote: Reality check please, table one ;)

This is the internet. No matter what is 'said' to anyone, the anonymous nature of the internet promotes a sort of 'hear no evil see no evil' scenario unless a thing is in the here and now, excepting of course, people that actually put stock in the consequence-less titters of people that know darned well they are safe from reprisal so long as they attack through the ether, hold a grudge. Now, holding a grudge is your business although I will advise you that it is a soul-crushing way to look at life particularly in regards to something said online, and you can cherish any hurts you want to hold to your heart as long as you like. But please let's understand something. Assuming that what somebody says online is anything but spewed vitriol that has no forethought and no recognition that the narcissist element of the internet (me me me! ) is self-deception, is an exercise in futility. In other words: bullspit posted online is just that. We as a society put this strange and enormous emotional pricetag on the onlines. hell, people commit suicide over some online mumbo-jumbo, which is pretty out there. Always remember: words posted online are and always will only be words on a screen. They are almost always a bunch of hooey, especially when said in anger.

phantompally76 wrote: Curiously, LP1's syntax and sentence structure is identical to that of a certain Skyrim mod author we haven't heard much from during this ordeal. But that's just a coincidence.

VaporWatch wrote: I totally agree mod authors should be allowed to put a price tag on their work, assuming the price is refundable if the mod author's work turns out to be dung. The mod author should also be able to receive the lion's share of the price paid for their work (and this was where I had the most issue with last week's fiasco). I know many of the mod authors put incredible amounts of time and effort into their works and, yes, that work should be rewarded in a more concrete way, should they choose to go that route.

@LP1. Saying "mod users aren't as important as mod authors" is the same thing as saying "children aren't as important as adults". I've been playing Skyrim for about a year and modding Skyrim for......um.....about a month, maybe two. Yup, I'm what y'all call a "noob". So I fit in exactly that range of people you are, essentially, saying are useless, right? So, let me ask you......where did you start? Did you download Skyrim for the first time and immediately set out to modding it? Did you pop your modding cherry by creating Falskaar? I could very well be wrong here but I assume most mod authors started out as mod users first and became mod authors because the available mods weren't meeting their needs/wants so they learned how to make their own, yes? I mean, if a mod author started creating mods with the specific intention to make money from them......well.....isn't it kinda dumb to expect to be paid for making mods before you have the ability to charge for making mods? Yes, it's entirely possible you started creating mods for Skyrim before ever downloading a single mod for Skyrim......but you had to start somewhere, right? You had to be a mod user before being a mod author, regardless for what game, right?

So......as I said, I've only been on the Nexus for about a month, but I've already started learning how to use the Creation Kit and Nifskope and I've actually created a few mods, just playing around. At what point to I cease my uselessness? How much to I need to contribute before I am as important as you are?

The simple fact is, "leeches" (as you so eloquently put it) ARE important to this community because without "leeches", there would be nobody to become mod authors. Mod authors who don't see that as rampant arrogance are just fooling themselves.

You know, it's funny that you use that exactly word, "leeches" in reference to users. I know, -of course I'm not going to say how I know this- when some time ago, talking exactly about this inside Bethesda someone said "so we made this, and all this modding bloodsuckers will have a penny of a dollar, and we can recuperate our own work".

It's funny how modders like you feel gloryfied, or you feel yourselves as gods, but the reality of the situation is, Bethesda only tolerates you because the amount of people around you. Yeah, that users you see as leeches. If this was a dozen of mod authors, Bethesda will slam you with their door a time ago. And they don't do that because of all of that users downlading, supporting and making a community of this mods.

Next time you talk about "leeches", think that in Bethesda there're people that make the entire game you're modding out of a scracht. With nothing but a idea come for a paper, and they're very proud of their job, and they're a bit, let's say "irritated" with the idea of a bunch of people -without any kind of timeline above their heads- coming and say "oh, this was a nice work, but I can add this here and made your work much better, showing how impolite it was in the first place".

Also, keep in mind, there're vocies saying "if this people, instead of realising directly to the public or creating communities will come to us in the first place, this will never happen. Our game will be much more stable and this whole situation will not existed".

Of course this is not going to be said by any PR. Also, not everyone in Bethesda think the same thing, but there is a lot of talk in some circles, and there're opinions in this manner. And keep that in mind, these people will shutdown you if they can. They can't because the users that are supporting and using your mods.