Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

[GrimCreation]

In response to post #24860514.

WightMage wrote: Thanks again for your comments on this Dark0ne. I for one am looking forward to seeing how the donation system can be improved.

I believe in Donations, I think if we can implement a good donation system we can find some decent middle ground where modders have a decent chance to make some money of their work (a lot of which is valuable) while keeping a the flexible open relationship with mod users that has been the heart of the modding community for so many years.

I'm sure some modders would love to have their modding be an actual paying job, for others its more of a serious and passionate hobby. So its easy to see why even with in the modder ranks divides in stance in paid-mods formed. This is also why we see the both positive and negative effects with modder as end result to the section of the user community that rallied against paid-mod's winning the battle and ending paid mods for now.

I think at some point in time the modding community might be open and more or less accepting to paid mods. However the stunt Bethesda and Valve pulled in the Steam Workshop was to big of a step in a different direction to suddenly drop it on community built on free sharing.

I think Donations would have been a better move for Valve and Bethesda to put into the workshop, I've already mentioned the pros such a move could make at the start of this post. Hell Bethesda and Valve could have taken a cut from the donations and there for get that slice of cake they definitely seemed to want. Though I do believe that the bulk of the donation should go to the mod creator and not the other way around.

This is just my thoughts and observations on the matter.

[Boyninja616]

In response to post #24859024. #24859239, #24860709, #24861914, #24870839, #24875649, #24877069, #24877239, #24877524 are all replies on the same post.

wulfharth wrote: Sometimes an idea once presented will persist as a part of the public consciousness forever. Finding out that Bethesda is in favor of individuals being paid to create content that adds life to their games will cause a massive change in the entire modding community.

Expect to see professional DLC creating studios in the future. Modders will soon have an opportunity to mod full-time and make a living from it. I wouldn't be surprised if these studios became sub-studios of Bethesda someday.

The downside is that the most professional and biggest mods will be paid mods (much like now). The upside is that there will be more DLC quality mods available and probably with additional support from Bethesda in terms of rigging files and code.

I have never failed to buy a mod for a TES game since Morrowind, and I've considered them all money well spent. I really look forward to the prospect of more of that type of content becoming available. The sooner this site adapts to this possibility, the better it will be able to stay a foundation piece of this community.

pokenar wrote: I was not actually one of those against paid mods, I just didn't like the execution. there were many many many issues with how bethesda and valve did it.

wulfharth wrote: Those percentages are pretty standard for a situation like that. If you read the Beth Blog, they will explain it. Valve was even going to share some of their cut with the Nexus.

Also, I think it's sad that people attacked modders who were trying to exercise an opportunity that was given to them. Nothing was taken away, an option was added for the modder.

It's old news now, but it's a sad day for artistic freedom. People think they don't have to pay for art because the artist enjoys their work. That mentality needs to change if modding is to thrive and reach it's true potential.

welikedustybetter wrote: Modding is different than art in many ways. There are many aspects to consider. Mods can be buggy or incompatible with each other or with your game or system. This is exacerbated by the bugs or stability issues native to the game. Then there's the fact that many mods are dependent upon other mods. Then there are modders resources and frameworks. Would there then also be royalty fees? A paid mods system would be a legal nightmare.

To sum up my opinion on this, I think modders provide a very valuable service to these games, and they should get paid for it. However, I think a donation system is much more suited for this. Someone else made a good long post on it in a previous Nexus article, so I won't bother, but I think the current system could use some tweaks that remind users that they can donate to the mod author, and perhaps reward those that do.

wulfharth wrote: Donation systems do not work. People mostly don't bother to endorse even to the best of the best mods. Do you really think they will take the time to give out of the kindness of their hearts? Historically on this site, no. They don't understand how long it takes to add a simple model or build a dungeon.

Modding requires creativity and is undeniably Art. That's why game development is taught at art academies in America.

If everyone gave one penny to each mod they use right now, Some people could quite their jobs and mod full time. That means more mods, more updates, and more compatibility patches. Mod theft and asset theft is easy to control with the reporting system we already have in place. Creators of buggy mods will not be endorsed and will not receive repeat business.

thefinn wrote: Yeah the percentages really were a slap in the face - even if it really was just a perception thing.

If it had been an even spread of 33% each, it might've been better.

However, giving the modder 25% of the take, while the other 2 parties take the lions share, kind of says "You are the least important part of this process." doesn't it ?

It certainly gave me that perception of their views.

muter3456 wrote: " Donations Systems do not work "

Yea. That's why Tarn Adams, a full on game developer, artists, even twitch streamers DEFINITELY don't make their money off donations. Definitely don't.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The modding community has been doing just fine for over a decade. If ain't broke, don't fix it.

But if you want to start your own mod-studio or whatnot, and sell your DLC to Bethesda or whatever, good luck with that :)

treota wrote: "Some people could quit their jobs and mod full time" - I think you nailed it there. SOME people could mod full time.

It is very unlikely to create an environment where any modder can put the effort in and make a living off it, what is significantly more likely is that SOME modders who either get lucky or have more support will be able to make a meager living off their work and most modders will have to do exactly the same as they always have.

Also with the introduction of money into the system you will cull a large portion of your audience, which personally I would say leads to less mods being created. Evidence? Name a game that has over 12,000 DLC and customers willing to pay for it (seriously I'm curious if one exists, closest I can think of is Borderlands or Dawn of War 2).

To be optimistic lets say the average customer that pays for the game (note that the base game is not free here) is also willing to buy 20 mods, 10 of those mods are most likely to be the 'essential' mods that are always the same, so 10 mod makers/studios can make a small profit.
The other 10 are just random items spread between the modding community as a whole and as such are probably not providing the authors with any real profit. Please note that if the next TES game is FREE with paid modding it might be a different story.

It's nice that you have the disposable income to be able to pay for them. Some of us can merely afford the original game.

And yet, the team behind Beyond Skyrim have said, officially, that even if they could charge for their mod, they wouldn't. They can't due to license limitations on some of the resources they're using, but the meat of the matter remains the same. I do not know of any big and/or professional mods that charge for their download. Perhaps you could enlighten me? Searching for paid mods yields results like this page.

You've said that money will attract "Talent" and "Quality". I'll go into why I think that's false later, but I don't know if you've noticed, the best mods (The best for a reason - Adding good quality or large amounts of new content) on the Nexus were all developed and released for free (As well as every single other one). A lot of modder's resources were also released for free.

The Nexus has been around since 2003. In those 12 years I doubt anyone, particularly in the early years, had any idea that something like this debacle would come to fruition. Modders slaved away with the Development Kit and other relevant programs to bring their fellow players something to enjoy. It was a labour of love; Even you contributed your Dragonbone weapons set to Immersive Weapons, a free mod.

Yet, as soon as the prospect of making money was introduced, several modders (Yourself included) metaphorically jumped for joy. As soon as the community showed what they thought about the idea, you as a group became bitter and resentful. You had no idea how much you were going to make from your creations (You can't use the few examples we have as the benchmark) and it doesn't make sense to attack and alienate the entire community (Not just the whingers) over what could be a few hundred $.

Don't even get me started on the legal wranglings (Particularly when it comes to modder's resources) and adhering to consumer law in every country your mod is downloaded in (Something that Steam itself doesn't actually do).

I will freely admit that I don't make mods myself, and that I have only endorsed 5 files in my 7 years here. The only reason I didn't donate was because, like many here, I had no idea you could.

I do, however, have a YouTube channel. It is admittedly small, but the work that goes into creating, editing and processing the content is no less daunting and time-consuming. I do it as a hobby, for other people's entertainment in my spare time. That is my motivation, even though I know that view counts won't even get in to triple figures. I would never force people to pay to watch my videos (Hell, I don't even advertise anywhere). If my channel were to get bigger, than I would use a platform like Patreon to allow people to donate, but I wouldn't hold it against them if they'd rather keep their money to themselves.

I just don't see why some modders have taken such a hostile attitude to this whole fiasco. I'm not on the side of the community; Some of the vitriol was sickening, but I'm not on the side of the modders who've shut the door on everyone either.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24870864. #24885899 is also a reply to the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

Of all the things said in the TotalBiscuit interview done by Brumbek and Dark0ne that I think best speaks to what happened last weekend was that normal subscriptions run from between 3000 - 6000 per day , yet on Saturday of last week it was over 13000 . I would even imagine Dark0ne if he cared to share the data could tell us there was a mini spike in premiun memberships and with the flood of people coming in it tells us 3 things . 1) Some of these people were so panicked that they thought the only way they could fix it was by buying a premiun membership (notice how many people had premiun memberships yet were making their first post ever) 2) alot of them just screamed and freaked out (notice how many people sreaming that had like a very short post count , again some of them their very first post) 3) all of this was coming down on modders making them feel the community didn't support them or appreciate them . Simple fact is our community got invaded last week because many didn't know where else to go when it comes to where mods come from .

 

Nexus: 1) A connection or series of connections linking two or more things:the nexus between industry and political power

 

2) A connected group or series: a nexus of ideas

 

3)A central or focal point: the nexus of any government in this country is No. 10

 

I would be very interested in the statistics of subscription to the site and premiun member increase if one . Think that would tell us alot about how much of a focal point we were , because I dont think what happened is indicative of this community.

Brasscatcher wrote: This is a five-star post, sir. You raise several salient points, I too would be interested in seeing the data. Heck, I know my own "traffic" increased exponentially over this weekend.

What can I say, I'm normally not very chatty. :)

The more I read and think about this, the more I start realising... it was a very crafty plan.

[Brasscatcher]

In response to post #24870864. #24885899, #24887074 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

Of all the things said in the TotalBiscuit interview done by Brumbek and Dark0ne that I think best speaks to what happened last weekend was that normal subscriptions run from between 3000 - 6000 per day , yet on Saturday of last week it was over 13000 . I would even imagine Dark0ne if he cared to share the data could tell us there was a mini spike in premiun memberships and with the flood of people coming in it tells us 3 things . 1) Some of these people were so panicked that they thought the only way they could fix it was by buying a premiun membership (notice how many people had premiun memberships yet were making their first post ever) 2) alot of them just screamed and freaked out (notice how many people sreaming that had like a very short post count , again some of them their very first post) 3) all of this was coming down on modders making them feel the community didn't support them or appreciate them . Simple fact is our community got invaded last week because many didn't know where else to go when it comes to where mods come from .

 

Nexus: 1) A connection or series of connections linking two or more things:the nexus between industry and political power

 

2) A connected group or series: a nexus of ideas

 

3)A central or focal point: the nexus of any government in this country is No. 10

 

I would be very interested in the statistics of subscription to the site and premiun member increase if one . Think that would tell us alot about how much of a focal point we were , because I dont think what happened is indicative of this community.

Brasscatcher wrote: This is a five-star post, sir. You raise several salient points, I too would be interested in seeing the data. Heck, I know my own "traffic" increased exponentially over this weekend.

What can I say, I'm normally not very chatty. :)

sunshinenbrick wrote: The more I read and think about this, the more I start realising... it was a very crafty plan.

@sunshinen Right? One of the dangers of light-speed communications. You can transmit data rapidly..but correct interpretation takes much much longer.

[cads73]

Content, Bugs, and Compatibility (CBC, check it!)

 

A lot that has been written is mostly by how MOD authors are being paid by content. Not much has been “consumer” centric. Now, I wish I had talent to make a MOD. I have lots of fabulous ideas. I just won’t make the time, and, artistically, any work I do would look like a five year old holding a black sharpie in their hands and gazing at a white wall canvass in the living room. Not good.

 

So this is a consumer of MODs talking. What my expectations are from paying for a MOD or multiple MODs, and using them in my game.

 

I can’t play Skyrim without MODs. More specifically, I always use certain MODs, and I mean always, in any stallation build whenever I rock out Skyrim. These MODs are for the most part compatible.

 

I will say, in my opinion, Skyrim, and games similar to it, are a different animal than say DOTA 2, and TF2. The MODs created for those games do not fundamentally change the game play or look of the game the same way MODs in Skyrim does. They are very complex pieces of software.

 

Here is a list of MODs that are, in my opinion, essential to my Skyrim experience. For those with OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder), this is not a load order:

- SkyUI (Skyrim User Interface)

- SMIM (Stadic Mesh Improvement MOD)

- USKP (Unofficial Skyrim Patch, all oth them)

- SFO (Skyrim Floral Overhaul)

- WATER, or Realistic Water (They are both very good)

- If Brumbek recommends it, I install it, with a few exceptions.

- Immersive Weapons/Immersive Armor

- SkyRE or Perkus Maximus

- Memory MODs (ENBoost, Stable uGrids To Load, Skyrim Starup Memory-Editor)

- RCRN and ELFX (They both complement each other)

- Wet and Cold (Standard and Ashes)

- Run for your lives

- When vampires attack

- Divine punishment for the arrow in the knee, sweetrolles

- Enhanced Blood

 

I do have other MODs I use but this list is unique in that it is part of a discussion that I want with other posters. These MODs are either recommended by other authors, constantly updated by the authors, or are not broken to the point that an update is not necessary (looking at you RCRN). They also work together, or if they overlap, you have to either adjust a load order, and/or an installation order. Check it: Load order, installation order, continual updates, or a lack there of.

 

That, as a consumer of MODs, is what I am looking for:

- Content (is it must have, does it complement other MODs, does it evolve over time)

- Bugs (continual updates)

- Compatibility (Load order/installation order against other MODs, does not break other MODs)

 

CBC people.

 

I would have no problem paying money to the authors of these MODs, since they regularly update their MODs and make it compatible with others. The problem is that, this happened over time. It’s not like SMIM was supper compatible with ELFX the whole time, but the authors somehow decided to make their MODs work with each other. Skyrim MODs, at least the really good ones, are very organic, and evolve over time. I just don’t see how a “Steam” type store can really handle these MODs over time. You can’t just subscribe to SMIM, and “Better dynamic snow.” Yeah, they complement each other, but you have to install them in a specific order. The load order app from Steam really won’t help you. That’s just two MODs. I usually rock out over 70 MODs in my Skyrim build. How in the hell is Steam’s load order app going to help me “install” these MODs properly.

 

When a MOD is free, I don’t care. Its wild, wild, west; I’ll try a MOD, if it doesn’t work, I don’t care. If I paid for a MOD… that simply won’t work.

 

OK, Ill say it: is the only way to coax a good Skyrim/Fallout type MOD is to establish a “subscription” model to a single MOD, multiple MODs? If a really good MOD truly grow over time (See SMIM), and other MODs jump on board to be truly compatible, should authors have the ability to group together and establish a subscription model ($2.00/year for example), so that the vision of the MOD becomes fully fleshed out over time? I think a subscription model would only work for games such as Skyrim (Fallout as well) due to the nature of the platform that it provides.

 

If I am paying for a MOD though, I have certain expectations. I want CBC.

 

I have a feeling there will be a lot of hate and trolls for this... sigh.

 

[GrimCreation]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114 is also a reply to the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

[Farvahar]

I donated recently through the donate button and it was a real hassle (much like renewing my subscription). Would I want to do that for each and every mod author I want to support (could be hundreds).

 

No.

 

Also, I don't like being limited to buying them a subscription to the Nexus, which is a minimum of a couple dollars. Some mods deserve a dollar or 2 (the core game can be had for 5). Most mods deserve a few cents (multiplied by hundreds of thousands of users).

 

This is the ideal system:

 

1) A wallet system, like Steam has

2) The ability to set the amount you want to donate in cash to the nearest cent

3) the ability to donate to multiple mods at once: a "donate all" button or some such

It would have been nice for the players in this (Valve, Bethesda, and Nexus, and a couple of prominent free modder types) to sit down together and hash out a suitable system that allows people to receive donations in lieu of formal payment.

 

The system we have now is not acceptable and "drawing a line under it" invites further turmoil.

[thebassoonist06]

In response to post #24881854.

Arcadiast wrote: I knew this was coming. The "Lottery" and "a sucker born every minute" Mentalities combined inevitably lead to monetizing everything.

I dont blame a Modder who has created a Mod with Millions of Downloads thinking "I could get rich with this". I dont even blame any "Businessman" thinking "there is money to be made with this". These are logical conclusions. I would have, however, blamed anyone who loves mods and modding if they had not defended their hobby. It seems they were smart enough to do so and for that I am very VERY Proud of the modding community.

I dont mind the "idea" of monetizing User created Content but dont call it Modding. Call it "UDLC" (User created DLC) or "UCC" (User Created Content) or something else. Just draw a line. Make it clear to people what is what. By calling it Modding you are "raping" the good reputation of a Hobby People got used to. Its the same thing a Drug Dealer does, the first sample is free and once he got you hooked he starts asking more and more.

I made some small mods long ago. Nothing too fancy, It was some Menu or Background for a fighting game. I did it first and foremost for my own pleasure and after I realised that other people might like my changes, I put it in the net to SHARE the Pleasure with others. Never did I think about making money with it because it never was business it was always fun. I did not even mind if people used my mod as a base for their works. The only rule for me was "dont make money with it".

Did they even think this through? Mods enjoy much more freedom then DLCs even can for example. If you make a Mod and it is not fully compatible with the game, well you might "fix" it or you might not...its free after all right? but if ppl have paid for it they WILL DEMAND Compatibility...its their right. If there is a Bug in your Mod and you dont want or have the time to fix it, there might be rage in the comments and "shitstorm" but no legal obligation. Will that still be the case once you start charging for it? Nobody in his right mind would sue you over a mod you created in your spare time and sharing for free with others...put paid content? entirely a different thing.

Same issue with content. With mods there is great liberty in putting nearly whatever you like in them but once its a paid product you will find yourself in a great conflict with copyrights, moral borders, law, political correctness etc. You will have to check your mod for possibly offensive, sexually abusive, politically hazardous or generally "unacceptable" content. You will lose a good portion of creativity just by monetizing your hobby.

If everything in Life becomes about Money then everything in Life will have a Price Tag, including you. Then everything will have a Number and that Number will be its worth...not a penny more. If that is what you wish then just do nothing and let things happen.

P.S. Sorry I am a little late for the "Show". I belong to the "older" Generation of gamers and age does set other priorities. Thats why I am happy to see a new Generation of Gamers fighting for their cause. I hope and wish to see that coming generations can enjoy Modding like we did with no strings attached, no limits to their creativity and none of the worries they will inevitably have in other parts of their lives. Keep your Hobby clean and invaluable, it is what makes life worth living. No Price Tag means its worth more then money can buy.

Thanks!

You made a lot of good points, especially about consumers demanding the product they bought to work. This would be my main concern with buying from an unknown publisher. Heck, I rarely by DLC from the company that created the game that has that guarantee. I've definitely never paid more for armor or visual enhancements.
On the other hand, I have nothing against modders trying to make a buck off of the time and effort they put into this stuff. I've always been amazed and truly impressed by the creativity on this site. EA did something similar with the Sims 3, where they had mod download site, and uploaders could choose whether or not they wanted to charge for their product. There was also a wealth of other communities that contained great mods.
I think if the system were not restrictive, we could get a best of both worlds situation.

[Brasscatcher]

In response to post #24887219.

cads73 wrote: Content, Bugs, and Compatibility (CBC, check it!)

A lot that has been written is mostly by how MOD authors are being paid by content. Not much has been “consumer” centric. Now, I wish I had talent to make a MOD. I have lots of fabulous ideas. I just won’t make the time, and, artistically, any work I do would look like a five year old holding a black sharpie in their hands and gazing at a white wall canvass in the living room. Not good.

So this is a consumer of MODs talking. What my expectations are from paying for a MOD or multiple MODs, and using them in my game.

I can’t play Skyrim without MODs. More specifically, I always use certain MODs, and I mean always, in any stallation build whenever I rock out Skyrim. These MODs are for the most part compatible.

I will say, in my opinion, Skyrim, and games similar to it, are a different animal than say DOTA 2, and TF2. The MODs created for those games do not fundamentally change the game play or look of the game the same way MODs in Skyrim does. They are very complex pieces of software.

Here is a list of MODs that are, in my opinion, essential to my Skyrim experience. For those with OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder), this is not a load order:
- SkyUI (Skyrim User Interface)
- SMIM (Stadic Mesh Improvement MOD)
- USKP (Unofficial Skyrim Patch, all oth them)
- SFO (Skyrim Floral Overhaul)
- WATER, or Realistic Water (They are both very good)
- If Brumbek recommends it, I install it, with a few exceptions.
- Immersive Weapons/Immersive Armor
- SkyRE or Perkus Maximus
- Memory MODs (ENBoost, Stable uGrids To Load, Skyrim Starup Memory-Editor)
- RCRN and ELFX (They both complement each other)
- Wet and Cold (Standard and Ashes)
- Run for your lives
- When vampires attack
- Divine punishment for the arrow in the knee, sweetrolles
- Enhanced Blood

I do have other MODs I use but this list is unique in that it is part of a discussion that I want with other posters. These MODs are either recommended by other authors, constantly updated by the authors, or are not broken to the point that an update is not necessary (looking at you RCRN). They also work together, or if they overlap, you have to either adjust a load order, and/or an installation order. Check it: Load order, installation order, continual updates, or a lack there of.

That, as a consumer of MODs, is what I am looking for:
- Content (is it must have, does it complement other MODs, does it evolve over time)
- Bugs (continual updates)
- Compatibility (Load order/installation order against other MODs, does not break other MODs)

CBC people.

I would have no problem paying money to the authors of these MODs, since they regularly update their MODs and make it compatible with others. The problem is that, this happened over time. It’s not like SMIM was supper compatible with ELFX the whole time, but the authors somehow decided to make their MODs work with each other. Skyrim MODs, at least the really good ones, are very organic, and evolve over time. I just don’t see how a “Steam” type store can really handle these MODs over time. You can’t just subscribe to SMIM, and “Better dynamic snow.” Yeah, they complement each other, but you have to install them in a specific order. The load order app from Steam really won’t help you. That’s just two MODs. I usually rock out over 70 MODs in my Skyrim build. How in the hell is Steam’s load order app going to help me “install” these MODs properly.

When a MOD is free, I don’t care. Its wild, wild, west; I’ll try a MOD, if it doesn’t work, I don’t care. If I paid for a MOD… that simply won’t work.

OK, Ill say it: is the only way to coax a good Skyrim/Fallout type MOD is to establish a “subscription” model to a single MOD, multiple MODs? If a really good MOD truly grow over time (See SMIM), and other MODs jump on board to be truly compatible, should authors have the ability to group together and establish a subscription model ($2.00/year for example), so that the vision of the MOD becomes fully fleshed out over time? I think a subscription model would only work for games such as Skyrim (Fallout as well) due to the nature of the platform that it provides.

If I am paying for a MOD though, I have certain expectations. I want CBC.

I have a feeling there will be a lot of hate and trolls for this... sigh.

Agreed. Heck, if anything, the missed opportunity on Bethsoft's side of things is that they could have been bundling "core experience" enhancing mods, helping the authors hash out incompatibilities, and releasing those as a DLC-sized bundle. It would create a legit value-for-profit framework as well as providing the necessary QC to protect consumers. I'm sure other kinds of mods could be bundled similarly.

It would also create a "suburbs" separate from, yet complimentary to the "wild west". :)

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.

This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.

No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.

But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.

My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.

So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.

Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.

GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.

However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.

I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.

From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?

My final post:

Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.

My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.

Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.

I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.

I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'

Thanks for reading.

SNB


Link to discussion, please add your opinions:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/