Floods in Australia, a major disaster across many states

[roquefort]

"..I am sickened at the way this has got hijacked and turned into Yet Another Global Warming warning thread." (cf ginnyfizz).

 

Funnily enough you're the only one to have made a contentious issue of it in this thread. Global warming got mentioned tentatively in passing a couple of times, and the topic had moved on until you dived in with what was basically a rant. Beams & motes..

[Vindekarr]

ENOUGH!

 

The cause doesnt matter, what matters is the effect.

 

And the effect is catastrohpic floods now spreading to the much more densely populated south.

[roguim]

About the Flood in the State of Rio de Janeiro it's not related to climatic chance or only due heavy storm, but more to human failure. We don't have a good alert system so the rain take many by surprise, we don't have serious policies for emergency like that, only elections talks to gain vote.

I mean it's not the first time of as flood related tragedy happen here, last year in this same period a storm killed more than 200 people.

in 2007 and 2008 storm and flood provoked about 100 deads in the same region affect by this year tragedy.

So more than an accident or something caused by the nature, it's an man made tragedy caused by uncontrolled cities grow, lack of memory and politic will to do what have to do.

[Nadimos]

Is it not the poeples own fault, that taxed nature to much by changing the quality of the earth itself through cutting down wood and now it cannot hold enough water anymore

and also possibly by adjusting the rivers themselfs, by taking away the natural overflow areas and building houses and cities in them, making the rivers go in straight lines, which destroys the carry ability of it? They had this coming in poland not to long ago, but the goverment blamed animals on it. Just bad for the poeple who unsuspectingly end up in this areas and then one day it happens. I guess thats simply the price you pay for being out of tune with it even tho no one want that to happen, but poeple are bad in listening. I hope everything will get better over there. Dont blame the kangaroos.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Nadimos

[Maigrets]

@ Ginnyfizz

 

I do not know much about the geography and topography of the affected areas in either Australia or Brazil, but I DO know that our experience of flooding in the UK (and it has not been on the epic scale of recent floods elsewhere, I realize that) has shown that it is often more to do with unwise town planning and building decisions, shoving new builds on flood plains and diverting the floods willy nilly elsewhere, than any fashionable idea of global warming. So sorry to disappoint the global warmers. So, for the future, we should recognize this factor and start making with the flood relief plans, rather than leaping on the global warming bandwagon.

 

You yourself admit not knowing much about the topography of either Australia or Brazil, yet you seem to think you have the solutions to our problems. Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria deal with these phenomenon every year and it has little to do with town planning and building decisions. You seem to suggest we in Australia at least are simpletons by your very attitude. The Global warming "band wagon" as you put it was mentioned in passing and taken out of context by yourself and Kendo2. There were no extended discussions on the subject.

 

The current events could not have been prevented by any means. It was and is a once in many decades natural phenomenon. Queensland is a tropical state. Do you think they would not know how to deal with floods in a normal monsoon season? Three quarters of the state is under water and that flood water is now heading south as Vindekarr said. It wouldn't matter how much prevention and planning was put in place in this instance. Nothing can stop it.

 

I'd like to know how you would suggest diverting the flood water elsewhere when there's nowhere to divert it to, especially in this case. Of course there's the ocean, but the rivers are already swollen and overflowing. Infrastructure on a grand scale as you suggest would be nigh impossible.

 

As far as relief plans, as I said before they are always in place and are being enacted as they are every year. This year it's on a much larger scale due to unpreventable conditions.

 

I have friends and acquaintances in the affected states and I have concerns for them even though I now know they are OK . Even if I didn't, I also care about the rest of the population because disaster could happen anywhere. It's bushfire season here as well. That will be the next thing and no matter how much prevention is put in place some things are just out of human control. It's only by sheer luck that there haven't already been fires, but summer isn't over yet and the arsonists seem to be quiet this year.

 

EDIT: And that's my last word on this and any other subject. I would like to be able to debate and discuss matters in this section of the site forums, but when it's dictated to by a couple of members who tell us what to say and when (not meaning the Moderators. That's their job after all) I feel it's a pointless exercise in frustration.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Maigrets

[ginnyfizz]

Absolutely staggering. In no way have I ever suggested that Australians are simpletons, that is absolutely untrue, offensive and should be withdrawn.

 

Building unwisely is actually an international phenomenon, and not confined to any particular country, as is failure to maintain existing precautions (eg the levees in New Orleans were in places broken, as we may recall from the time of the disastrous hurricane.) Also I carefully chose the words "flood relief" and did not use "Flood prevention", since if you had read my posts correctly, you would have seen that I actually agreed with tortured Tomato who said precisely that you cannot prevent natural phenomena. You can only try and mitigate the effects on peoples' lives. As Australia are used to dealing with the usual seasonal floods, as I am know they are, then I am very pleased for them, but it would do no harm to take a look at their already existing relief plans, as I am sure they mean to do. The scheme I mentioned earlier involved building a dam and simply letting the flood water overflow some land, with flood relief channels added later. In such a vast country as Australia the plans would have to be on a much bigger scale, and I also never said that scheme I mentioned would work there. It's just a principle to consider, diversion schemes. You may never be able to prevent natural disasters, but you may be able to give people more time to escape.

 

And yes, actually I DO have a relative, my cousin, who has lost her home as a result of the Queensland floods. But as she said when I spoke to her on Skype shortly before they evacuated, "At least I am alive, my thoughts are with those who weren't so lucky."

[Maharg67]

I am Australian and I have experienced some disaster though not on the scale now being seen in Queensland.

 

While we Australians are well used to living with trouble, from the first we failed to take into account the unique climate and other features of this country. We came here thinking as Europeans and tried to treat this country as an extension of Britain. We have built too many of our settlements in the wrong places. We have failed to plan properly for many disasters, some of which have taken a fair few lives. I am in a strong position to know this is the case.

 

We need to rethink our ways of dealing with our wonderful country. For example too many of our towns are built on flood plains as are parts of cities. Too many of our buildings lack enough fire or flood resistance though of course when nature really gets going, it is impossible to stop. Which is where we need to seek new and creative solutions involving hitech but also older tech, older ideas.

 

Dams, dykes, flood diversion canals, flood proof structures in which to house belongings even if not people, emergency platform-towers with multiple uses including as helipads and many other ideas need to be considered. We simply can no longer afford to just keep rebuilding back to the old ways every time that disasters strike. Modifications have been made after disasters before but people far too easily forget and governments turn to other spending considerations.

 

We in Australia need to also find ways to protect our farmers and the farms, to protect the coal mines and many other features of our country.

[ginnyfizz]

That, Maharg67, is an excellent articulation of what I was thinking. I understand when you say that that "people far too easily forget and governments turn to other spending considerations." To be effective, the building of infrastructure for flood/other natural disaster relief needs to be a rolling and ongoing programme that is constantly to the top of the agenda. Sadly, the call for affordable housing coupled with the power of the almighty dollar/pound/euro/yen/other currency as appropriate often overcomes this, short term gain being the main thing that the powers that be care about. For example in my village, a large plot of land was sold to a developer who got planning permission to build housing, despite local protests that the site was at the lowest point in the village and on the site of an underground sough (spring/stream) which, since the local mines had closed and there was no more pumping going on, was prone to flood every winter. The build went ahead. The houses duly flooded every winter, this large national builder became an object of ridicule and had to spend millions on remedial work, wiping out all his profits from the development. This is what happens all over the world, and adds up to trouble in the future, if the planning authorities do not pay due regard to potential problems and take note only of the pound signs...

[Kendo 2]

Just for clarification, I want to be a staff member here as much as the staff wants me to be a staff member here.

[marharth]

The cause of the flood matters much more then the effects.

 

Everyone knows what happens during and after a flood.

 

We can't be sure what caused it though, and the best way to prevent such things is to know the cause.