A Dragonborn Hist Tree?

[kimmera]

 

 

The Hist Trees are directly connected to Sithis, and since Akatosh is the one to grant dragonborn power and has no power to affect the creations of the Dread Lord, no. A hist tree could not be a dragonborn.

 

How does that follow? A Dragonborn can be not just a member of the Dark Brotherhood but their Listener and thus in the service of Sithis.

 

That's different. The dragonborn is granted his or her draconic blood by Akatosh at birth, unless they somehow became listener while they were a friggin fetus. Sithis is far stronger than any of the Et'Ada, and can easily overwrite any divine marking, while still leaving the powers it gave. A dragonborn may be a creation of Akatosh, but that does not and can not stop Sithis from doing whatever the heck he wants to.

 

 

Think about what you just said. You are assuming that the Hist Tree would become Dragonborn because of Akatosh at birth, but what if Sithis took the gift from the newborn Dragonborn and transplanted it into a Hist Tree?

[Fistitron]

The Hist quite possibly pre-date Akatosh

 

They're holdovers from the last Kalpa

[Lachdonin]

The Hist quite possibly pre-date Akatosh

 

They're holdovers from the last Kalpa

 

They may be even 'older' than that. Older than the Mundus entirely. Older than Anuel, Padomay and the entire Aubris.

 

 

 

Think about what you just said. You are assuming that the Hist Tree would become Dragonborn because of Akatosh at birth, but what if Sithis took the gift from the newborn Dragonborn and transplanted it into a Hist Tree?

 

 

Sithis can't do squat. It/he/she is either another castrated fragment of Lorkhan (possibly the manifestation of absolute mortality) or just Mephala having a laugh.

 

The Hist don't even recognise Sithis as a divine entity with agency. it's a force of entropy and mortality, but not something with an ability to act of its own volition. That's why the they give the Shadowscales to Sithis (or rather, used to) so that they can serve as agents of the force of Sithis, which cannot act its self.

[kimmera]

 

 

 

 

Think about what you just said. You are assuming that the Hist Tree would become Dragonborn because of Akatosh at birth, but what if Sithis took the gift from the newborn Dragonborn and transplanted it into a Hist Tree?

 

 

Sithis can't do squat. It/he/she is either another castrated fragment of Lorkhan (possibly the manifestation of absolute mortality) or just Mephala having a laugh.

 

The Hist don't even recognise Sithis as a divine entity with agency. it's a force of entropy and mortality, but not something with an ability to act of its own volition. That's why the they give the Shadowscales to Sithis (or rather, used to) so that they can serve as agents of the force of Sithis, which cannot act its self.

 

 

But something doesn't have to be conscious to 'do.' Sithis is a vague enough entity that if for some crazy reason the writers wanted a dragonborn Hist tree, there would be a dragonborn Hist tree.

 

"It turns out Sithis is more conscious than previously believed" or "Sithis was manipulated by <insert new lore here> into causing this to be"

 

Caaros was arguing that Akatosh couldn't make a Hist tree Dragonborn because Sithis is more powerful and would prevent it, but if Sithis isn't conscious, Sithis cannot consciously prevent it.

Edited August 6, 2015 by kimmera

[Lachdonin]

Fair enough. Sithis, despte the deranged ramblings of the Brotherhood, can neither cause nor prevent anything. Like Anu'iel, Sithis lacks the ability to self-evaluate, lacks identity and will. As such, it can do nothing to the realised potential and interaction of Akatosh.

 

It that isn't what keeps the Hist from being Dragonborn. The Hist are entirely separate from Akatosh's domain, existing within their own facsimile of time and being little more than echoes in the presence of the Aka-Spirits. Where all others, the Argonians included (by design) are bound to the Time Dragon by nature of their relation to Mundus, the Hist are something else. They can no more be made Dragonborn than a Xivlai or Dremora can.

 

I am personally always hesitant to base any evaluation on 'they can just add new information if they want'. While technically true, it's bad argumentation, shakey reasoning and rather bad writing.

[LeddBate]

I am personally always hesitant to base any evaluation on 'they can just add new information if they want'. While technically true, it's bad argumentation, shakey reasoning and rather bad writing.

 

And will make most of us throw our hands up and say, "Okay, you know what? Just forget it. Fallout 4 is almost here. At least that world makes sense to me..."

[kimmera]

Fair enough. Sithis, despte the deranged ramblings of the Brotherhood, can neither cause nor prevent anything. Like Anu'iel, Sithis lacks the ability to self-evaluate, lacks identity and will. As such, it can do nothing to the realised potential and interaction of Akatosh.

 

It that isn't what keeps the Hist from being Dragonborn. The Hist are entirely separate from Akatosh's domain, existing within their own facsimile of time and being little more than echoes in the presence of the Aka-Spirits. Where all others, the Argonians included (by design) are bound to the Time Dragon by nature of their relation to Mundus, the Hist are something else. They can no more be made Dragonborn than a Xivlai or Dremora can.

 

I am personally always hesitant to base any evaluation on 'they can just add new information if they want'. While technically true, it's bad argumentation, shakey reasoning and rather bad writing.

 

 

This argument would make sense .... if the Hist trees had no manifestation on Nirn. But they do manifest on Nirn, can be interacted with, and thus are not entirely separate.

 

The writer's ability to change things might be bad writing... except that they are generally careful with the lore to say 'these are historical documents that may or may not be fully accurate' i.e. equivalent to most RL historical accounts. Furthermore, each game isn't necessarily the same continuity. They have established that each player's play-through is a separate parallel world.

 

How else do you explain the skeleton key suddenly needing to be in the Twilight Sepulcher? Was Nirn exceptionally unlucky for most of its history, just suddenly regaining its luck now? And why do the Daedric artifacts conveniently move around to wherever the current game is set anyway?

 

 

I am personally always hesitant to base any evaluation on 'they can just add new information if they want'. While technically true, it's bad argumentation, shakey reasoning and rather bad writing.

 

And will make most of us throw our hands up and say, "Okay, you know what? Just forget it. Fallout 4 is almost here. At least that world makes sense to me..."

 

 

Lol..... except for all those who have been ranting about perceived inconsistencies in Fallout lore :D

[Lachdonin]

 

This argument would make sense .... if the Hist trees had no manifestation on Nirn. But they do manifest on Nirn, can be interacted with, and thus are not entirely separate.

 

How else do you explain the skeleton key suddenly needing to be in the Twilight Sepulcher? Was Nirn exceptionally unlucky for most of its history, just suddenly regaining its luck now? And why do the Daedric artifacts conveniently move around to wherever the current game is set anyway?

 

 

The Daedra can manifest on Nirn, and aren't subject to the whims of Akatosh (they are subject to the particularities of the barriers of Mundus, though). They neither age nor ever become Mortal.

 

As for the Skeleton Key... it wasn't. The Nightengales are, first and foremost, a cult, not supremely knowledgeable scholars. They have no true understanding of Nocturnal, the Sepulcher, or how luck works. They were simply cursed by Nocturnal because one of their own stole something from her (wouldn't be the first time. Remember the Grey Cowl?) and their loss of luck was the product of that curse, not some phenomenon linked naturally to the Evermere.

[kimmera]

 

 

 

 

The Daedra can manifest on Nirn, and aren't subject to the whims of Akatosh (they are subject to the particularities of the barriers of Mundus, though). They neither age nor ever become Mortal.

 

As for the Skeleton Key... it wasn't. The Nightengales are, first and foremost, a cult, not supremely knowledgeable scholars. They have no true understanding of Nocturnal, the Sepulcher, or how luck works. They were simply cursed by Nocturnal because one of their own stole something from her (wouldn't be the first time. Remember the Grey Cowl?) and their loss of luck was the product of that curse, not some phenomenon linked naturally to the Evermere.

 

 

A daedra can whack another over the head. They can affect each other. Daedra can see each other and can see Nirn when they are on Nirn. They are subject to physical barriers on Nirn. They aren't as inviolable as you claim, even if you do have something from a writer somewhere that you think backs you up (giving you the benefit of the doubt on that).

 

It is possible that Nocturnal lied, but it wasn't just the Nightingales not understanding Nocturnal. They weren't just a cult. They were a cult that interacted with Nocturnal directly, as well as with the Sepulcher directly. Furthermore it is implied that you need Nightingale powers to be a skilled thief, which is a load of garbage, since the DB certainly didn't need them to get that far and likely doesn't need them or even use them at all to defeat Mercer. The whole existence of the Sepulcher is completely out of the blue, and doesn't explain why the key was ok in the hands of the Hero of Kvatch, the Nerevarine and the Hero of Daggerfall without needing followers of the Daedra of the night and thievery to become a cult of vault guards.

 

For that matter, Nocturnal seems to be saying she can't even unlock the portal without the key, despite us being told so far that it is her key, her artifact.