Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

AeroModss · September 12, 2015

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704, #28630589 are all replies on the same post.

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seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

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Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

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Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

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DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

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Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

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seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

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B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

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Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

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Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

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Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

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Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

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Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

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Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

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endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...

Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

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Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

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Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

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MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

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Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

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C0drm0nk33 wrote: Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.
A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.

Man Xilandro speaks truth.Become one of them,then you will see what is actually happening.For example,you work hundreds of hours on a mod,you see some problem almoust every day,then you spend another 2-3 hours just solving it.We didn't come here just for money,we came because we wanted to share our work and experience with other fellow authors and mod users,but only thing that donations do is to help our financial state,to help our families to pay bills by sharing some of our donations,and by motivating us to work better and harder. :D

AeroModss · September 12, 2015

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704, #28630589, #28630739, #28630989, #28631099 are all replies on the same post.

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seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

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Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

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Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

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DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

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Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

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seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

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B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

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Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

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Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

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Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

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Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

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Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

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Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

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endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...

Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

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Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

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Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

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MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

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Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

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C0drm0nk33 wrote: Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.
A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.

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AeroModss wrote: Man Xilandro speaks truth.Become one of them,then you will see what is actually happening.For example,you work hundreds of hours on a mod,you see some problem almoust every day,then you spend another 2-3 hours just solving it.We didn't come here just for money,we came because we wanted to share our work and experience with other fellow authors and mod users,but only thing that donations do is to help our financial state,to help our families to pay bills by sharing some of our donations,and by motivating us to work better and harder. :D

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AeroModss wrote: Oh you see this is the problem.WE MODDERS SPEND HUNDREDS OF HOURS MAKING A MOD.You dare to make a comment like this saying all these bad things about modders,and yet you haven't released your mod because it was too bad for you or because it was too hard to do.Grow up man.Do you think we modders make our mods without any problems ? We spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours making a single mod file.And now look at the mod section bellow what people say.Come back in 5-6 months when you make a mod with the same statement you said there.But the problem is,I think you won't.

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AeroModss wrote: Yep mate,it won't happend because of some people who have to be always different in some ways.

@Jafin16
You just hit bulls eye man,srsly.Awesome point there. Edited September 12, 2015 by AeroModss

AeroModss · September 12, 2015

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704, #28630589, #28630739, #28630799 are all replies on the same post.

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seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

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Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

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Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

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DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

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Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

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seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

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B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

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Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

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Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

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Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

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Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

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Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

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Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

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endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...

Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

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Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

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Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

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MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

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Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

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C0drm0nk33 wrote: Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.
A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.

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AeroModss wrote: Man Xilandro speaks truth.Become one of them,then you will see what is actually happening.For example,you work hundreds of hours on a mod,you see some problem almoust every day,then you spend another 2-3 hours just solving it.We didn't come here just for money,we came because we wanted to share our work and experience with other fellow authors and mod users,but only thing that donations do is to help our financial state,to help our families to pay bills by sharing some of our donations,and by motivating us to work better and harder. :D

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AeroModss wrote: You just hit bulls eye man,srsly.Awesome point there.

Oh you see this is the problem.WE MODDERS SPEND HUNDREDS OF HOURS MAKING A MOD.You dare to make a comment like this saying all these bad things about modders,and yet you haven't released your mod because it was too bad for you or because it was too hard to do.Grow up man.Do you think we modders make our mods without any problems ? We spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours making a single mod file.And now look at the mod section bellow what people say.Come back in 5-6 months when you make a mod with the same statement you said there.But the problem is,I think you won't.

AeroModss · September 12, 2015

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704, #28630589, #28630739, #28630799, #28630989 are all replies on the same post.

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seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

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Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

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Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

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DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

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Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

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seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

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B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

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Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

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Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

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Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

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Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

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Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

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Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

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endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...

Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

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Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

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Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

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MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

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Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

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C0drm0nk33 wrote: Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.
A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.

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AeroModss wrote: Man Xilandro speaks truth.Become one of them,then you will see what is actually happening.For example,you work hundreds of hours on a mod,you see some problem almoust every day,then you spend another 2-3 hours just solving it.We didn't come here just for money,we came because we wanted to share our work and experience with other fellow authors and mod users,but only thing that donations do is to help our financial state,to help our families to pay bills by sharing some of our donations,and by motivating us to work better and harder. :D

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AeroModss wrote: @Jafin16
You just hit bulls eye man,srsly.Awesome point there.

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AeroModss wrote: Oh you see this is the problem.WE MODDERS SPEND HUNDREDS OF HOURS MAKING A MOD.You dare to make a comment like this saying all these bad things about modders,and yet you haven't released your mod because it was too bad for you or because it was too hard to do.Grow up man.Do you think we modders make our mods without any problems ? We spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours making a single mod file.And now look at the mod section bellow what people say.Come back in 5-6 months when you make a mod with the same statement you said there.But the problem is,I think you won't.

@Chesko
Yep mate,it won't happend because of some people who have to be always different in some ways. Edited September 12, 2015 by AeroModss

dib8rman · September 12, 2015

Odd, I just put money towards the nexus and figured it was reaching mods, so there is a separate function for specific mods then. For me it's that I use a lot of different mods so its ridiculous for me to do what I want which would be about 5 to 10 a mod especially the ones that have a large value in my opinion.

That would be around 1000 dollars by the time I was done X_X.

I'll have to really think about it, I like the pay for your mod thing, a lot of these modders really should be getting paid for this stuff, I just assumed that's what the nexus sub was about.

MrJoseCuervo · September 12, 2015

In response to post #28632309.

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Everything was going great until a few people saw dollar signs.

You greedy people need to go away and leave gaming alone.

Galadreal · September 12, 2015

In response to post #28632309. #28632569 is also a reply to the same post.

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Yeah, no, the money sent to the nexus is to help cover cost of site upkeep and things like that. Servers are not free, and I think the people who work here also get paid. But putting money towards the Nexus means you don't have to see their ads that they post to cover their own costs. Which is also cool.
From what I can tell, most mod authors don't want paid, they just want to feel that their work is appreciated. Throwing any money their way is just an added bonus and makes them want to work harder to bring better mods.
I get massive burnout when all I hear is problems (especially made up problems by people who don't read descriptions), but if just one person leaves a nice comment, that improves my day. I think the same thing applies to anyone who wants to do more than just leave a nice comment.

macintroll · September 12, 2015

In response to post #28632309. #28632569, #28633279 are all replies on the same post.

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Video games revenue worldwide, year 2015 (estimation) = $115.06 BILLION
yeah gaming is definitely not about money ^^

Source:
http://www.statista.com/statistics/278181/video-games-revenue-worldwide-from-2012-to-2015-by-source/

Triaxx2 · September 12, 2015

Were I to donate a dollar to each of the mods I use, that'd be a $500 output. But they always hit me when I download, which is fine, but if I download, and donate, and then don't like the mod?

I think that like the Endorsement system, there should be a 1-hour window before a donation can be sent, while you try out the mod. And then when you download another mod, have the donate button appear along side the (Endorse/Disendorse) option on the download menu.

It becomes a non-intrusive reminder, and even if the mod you want to donate to isn't on that list, it's a reminder that you CAN donate.

Then again, my mods aren't of 'Donate to me' quality, so it doesn't mean anything to me.

schlangster · September 12, 2015

For me, the amount of donations had actually increased after the popup was added.

Then, the popup was changed to only show for repeat downloads. Mods like SkyUI, which are below the 2MB file size limit, can be downloaded without logging in or creating an account. Thus, for those cases the repeat download thing never triggers, because they are not tracked. Correct me if I'm wrong there, but when I tested it with a logged out browser instance, I just never get the popup, no matter how many times I download. As a result, this significantly reduced the number of donations again from the day the change was applied.

I brought it up repeatedly and initially had good faith that it would be addressed, because that was not even the intended effect of this change. However, nothing happened for 3-4 months, and at this point it doesn't matter anymore anyway. It would have been such a simple thing to fix and it would have made a big difference for me (and a few others).

What I expect based on this experience is that no matter what anyone writes, unless Bethesda try paid modding again, nobody is going to give a damn about improving the donation system, just like it was before.

Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

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