Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[adsgsdfgh]

In response to post #31818925.

jastic wrote: Out of interest what is a reasonable value to donate?

Granted it depends on the mod.

I did click on one site on nexus, the pop up indicated it wanted payment in dollars, it had the $ sign. Giving exchange rate fluctuations and charges for transferring currencies I was a little uneasy as to what to give.

Regards Jim

Yeah, my currency is inching closer to 20 to a US dollar every day. I fail to see hope my South African rands would make the slightest difference to someone in the US without me giving so much that it ruins me financially for a month. It's gotta be wonderful living in the first world expecting payment for a hobby, forgetting that some people have to struggle to get ahead in life.

[daeneyr1]

In response to post #31818925. #31860830 is also a reply to the same post.

jastic wrote: Out of interest what is a reasonable value to donate?

Granted it depends on the mod.

I did click on one site on nexus, the pop up indicated it wanted payment in dollars, it had the $ sign. Giving exchange rate fluctuations and charges for transferring currencies I was a little uneasy as to what to give.

Regards Jim

adsgsdfgh wrote: Yeah, my currency is inching closer to 20 to a US dollar every day. I fail to see hope my South African rands would make the slightest difference to someone in the US without me giving so much that it ruins me financially for a month. It's gotta be wonderful living in the first world expecting payment for a hobby, forgetting that some people have to struggle to get ahead in life.

we don't expect a payment for a hobby. Its more like we do a hobby and if people like it they can donate or not. It's like a thank you, not a paycheck. Also, people in first world countries also have to struggle to get ahead in life. There are many, many people in America, both whites and POC, that are homeless, poor, and/or having to choose whether to spend their money on feeding themselves or their children, or to pay the heating so they don't freeze. This is not a case of "pay me for my content" which is expressly forbidden anyway. This is a case of "i really like your mod and know that you are struggling to get by as a broke college student or high school dropout or whatever your situation is. Here is 50 cents as a thank you for your dedication to the nexus despite that you have to do real world work as well."

[ZoeS17]

This is one of the reasons I like developing open source. The community as a whole decides what is good for everyone and not some corporation that makes so much money that they go blind to what users on the whole want. Need I bring up the whole EA or Ubisoft models for basically not listening to their customers? I mean I love the Elder Scrolls series as much as the next person, but, let's remember that without users happy they have a severally limited future clientele. I still don't understand why they feel entitled to a cut, save the EULA we are all forced to agree to; I mean if I build a house with a brand of tools I don't owe that brand owner a cut. What makes your IP much different?

[PCRoolz]

Modding compensation points and ideas that I have amalgamated into a support tree in order to make a point counterpoint discussion easier.

 

1) Since mod authors are often not provided ownership of their mods by EULA's, their efforts must be seen as being provided the compensation and not the mod itself.

a) As a result, payments and sponsorships could/are considered compensation for the mod by companies like Bethesda thus are frowned upon so appreciation must focus on the author's time and efforts personally.

b) The ideal solution is like Twitch "cheers" where people with no connection to the game get compensated for the entertainment they provide from their work.

c) Providing money through Nexus does not force mod support by the author but "purchasing" a mod from a game originator like Bethesda for their "deserved cut" is not going to be perceived similarly by gamers so there is benefit to a modder to choose donations option over "sales".

d) One compensation method could be a mod dedicated full page "Youtubish" ad prior to any download by users not making donations that meets some kind of popularity or approval criteria?

 

 

2) Microtransactions like Twitch "cheers" are imperative for donations as it allows a mod user to fine tune the amount of "mod overhead" value that a person would be willing to spend over the cost of the game to improve it.

a) Minimums like $1.00 are bad as very few people whom use over 50 mods are going to be willing to spend $50+ dollars above the cost of the game to customize it the way they wish it was originally designed.

- If Mod makers charge specific prices/values they risk looking greedy and over valuing their work thus tarnishing their efforts and modding as a result based on download quantity.

- Minimum $1.00 charges feel like a payment and people will feel like they have the right to demand support and compatibility as Bethesda will find out if/when they implement their mod store.

- Minimums also will force overcompensation or avoidance of smaller mods that are nice but not prominent game changers which will have equally negative repurcussions whether charging for it as Bethesda may try or even when donating to it.

b) People are much more willing to give when the amount seems trivial and in quantity trivial becomes significant plus even trivial monetary support can be very incentivizing to mod authors.

c) Like Twitch "cheers", the donator should be recognized in some way for their generosity in the community and/or on the actual mod page listing of mod supporters and/or other benefits on Nexus.

d) Discretion and anonymizing contributions/endorsements should be a considered option so that "wierd" or adult level mods don't lose out due to the fear or stigma of linking user credentials or hacking exposure.

e) Contributions must be as easy as Twitch as going to every mod Paypal account to donate is very off putting as the time loss and invested effort is felt worse than any consideration of money spent.

f) The "Toll Road" model could be used to initiate Nexus use above a certain number of downloads where you put a ($5.00?) minimum into your "Nexus Appreciation Reserve" that is used for "micro-appreciations" where a $.10+ appreciation and/or endorsements are required for a previous download after 5 new downloads or in lieu of watch a full screen ad like on YouTube provided to mod author of users choice[as an example].

g) Placing a "Coffee $" button on each mod page to make an easy one click donation of money might help support giving and put modding into perspective on the effort and energy required.

h) Being able to put in a maximum modding amount like $10 for a specific game and distribute it to all the mods you have endorsed/used for a game is also appealing in its ease of contributing as it is a SINGLE quick financial transaction and not an onerous giving process for people whom use many mods.

i) Being able to mass contribute from the Modding Manager with a SINGLE simple financial transaction where each person most likely focuses on the value of each of the mods to them personally would also be an ideal and easy way to show appreciation as they see and witness the modding benefits every time they play the game so then the Modding Manager could/should recognize visually the appreciation of the giving with some method generically or per modder custom message that makes the person feel the good they have done every time they run the game. (ie. Coffee button next to each installed mod maybe?)

j) With microtransactions you can willingly support 50 mods for $5 which is difficult for anyone to deny being able to do who can afford a computer and the game to be modded.

k) Twitch has proven that people can work from a donation only business model but the ease and "feelgood" acknowledgement incentives to the donators need to be put into place.

l) If Nexus wanted to avoid the financial obligations/infrastructure, I'm sure Amazon wouldn't mind a partnership where Nexus uses their "cheers" system since they charge a profit overhead for the "cheers" but this could be money that helped also support the Nexus site.

 

3) The idea of voluntarily rewarding a modder's time and effort is still much more appealing than having the game developers gaining compensation for their failures and lack of features in a game thus having a conflict of interest in offloading their responsibilities and also benefitting from them but it requires the minimalist amount of pain and effort to make the process a completed transaction rather than just a passing consideration of something that should be done at some future point when they wouldn't rather be playing the game.

 

4) With simply the endorsing of mods being very low, the assumption is that only a percentage of the actual endorsers would likely provide any financial appreciation to the modders. This may have some creedence but it also might be a misunderstanding of the value or importance of "endorsing" and what it actually means. Does it mean it works perfectly, was easy to install, a reference of things I personally like or a reference of something that improves or fixes the game itself? What if you like it conceptually but it was buggy and hard to get to work with your other mods? Do you endorse? What if it was mostly good but had some issues or one annoying flaw? This ambiguity makes "endorsing" something that may be more desirable to avoid as it also seemingly has little beneficial impact that the number of downloads and comments wouldn't also serve as a clearer and simpler endorsement.

 

In summary, Twitch has proven that the donation model can work but the infrastructure where both sides feel the reward and the ease of the process has to be put in place to make it enticing and mutually beneficial. The contributors need to see evidence that they are appreciated and it will make a difference to the quality of modding without making it an expectation that destroys the orginal benevolent community based culture of modding. One thing Twitch has proved is that giving begets giving so people must not see it as uncommon or out of the ordinary or they will feel that way about it so people need to see the "appreciation" others give to reinforce a culture of support. I think the greed seen from the Bethesda/Steam fiasco has done much damage to the perception of goodwill in the modding community but not irrepairably so that people can't get some compensation for their efforts without looking to get rich using abusive corporate power. The way it is done now on Nexus requires you to be adamant about donating to get it done rather than just a modest desire to show appreciation and that might as well be like crossing the Grand Canyon in getting actual donation results especially for users with many mods ironically.

[Thandal]

@PCRoolz; I never read walls o'text that are even half-a-screen long, let alone one that covers two. :armscrossed:

[HeyYou]

Modding compensation points and ideas that I have amalgamated into a support tree in order to make a point counterpoint discussion easier. 1) Since mod authors are often not provided ownership of their mods by EULA's, their efforts must be seen as being provided the compensation and not the mod itself. a) As a result, payments and sponsorships could/are considered compensation for the mod by companies like Bethesda thus are frowned upon so appreciation must focus on the author's time and efforts personally. b) The ideal solution is like Twitch "cheers" where people with no connection to the game get compensated for the entertainment they provide from their work. c) Providing money through Nexus does not force mod support by the author but "purchasing" a mod from a game originator like Bethesda for their "deserved cut" is not going to be perceived similarly by gamers so there is benefit to a modder to choose donations option over "sales". d) One compensation method could be a mod dedicated full page "Youtubish" ad prior to any download by users not making donations that meets some kind of popularity or approval criteria? 2) Microtransactions like Twitch "cheers" are imperative for donations as it allows a mod user to fine tune the amount of "mod overhead" value that a person would be willing to spend over the cost of the game to improve it. a) Minimums like $1.00 are bad as very few people whom use over 50 mods are going to be willing to spend $50+ dollars above the cost of the game to customize it the way they wish it was originally designed. - If Mod makers charge specific prices/values they risk looking greedy and over valuing their work thus tarnishing their efforts and modding as a result based on download quantity. - Minimum $1.00 charges feel like a payment and people will feel like they have the right to demand support and compatibility as Bethesda will find out if/when they implement their mod store. - Minimums also will force overcompensation or avoidance of smaller mods that are nice but not prominent game changers which will have equally negative repurcussions whether charging for it as Bethesda may try or even when donating to it. b) People are much more willing to give when the amount seems trivial and in quantity trivial becomes significant plus even trivial monetary support can be very incentivizing to mod authors. c) Like Twitch "cheers", the donator should be recognized in some way for their generosity in the community and/or on the actual mod page listing of mod supporters and/or other benefits on Nexus. d) Discretion and anonymizing contributions/endorsements should be a considered option so that "wierd" or adult level mods don't lose out due to the fear or stigma of linking user credentials or hacking exposure. e) Contributions must be as easy as Twitch as going to every mod Paypal account to donate is very off putting as the time loss and invested effort is felt worse than any consideration of money spent. f) The "Toll Road" model could be used to initiate Nexus use above a certain number of downloads where you put a ($5.00?) minimum into your "Nexus Appreciation Reserve" that is used for "micro-appreciations" where a $.10+ appreciation and/or endorsements are required for a previous download after 5 new downloads or in lieu of watch a full screen ad like on YouTube provided to mod author of users choice[as an example]. g) Placing a "Coffee $" button on each mod page to make an easy one click donation of money might help support giving and put modding into perspective on the effort and energy required. h) Being able to put in a maximum modding amount like $10 for a specific game and distribute it to all the mods you have endorsed/used for a game is also appealing in its ease of contributing as it is a SINGLE quick financial transaction and not an onerous giving process for people whom use many mods. i) Being able to mass contribute from the Modding Manager with a SINGLE simple financial transaction where each person most likely focuses on the value of each of the mods to them personally would also be an ideal and easy way to show appreciation as they see and witness the modding benefits every time they play the game so then the Modding Manager could/should recognize visually the appreciation of the giving with some method generically or per modder custom message that makes the person feel the good they have done every time they run the game. (ie. Coffee button next to each installed mod maybe?) j) With microtransactions you can willingly support 50 mods for $5 which is difficult for anyone to deny being able to do who can afford a computer and the game to be modded. k) Twitch has proven that people can work from a donation only business model but the ease and "feelgood" acknowledgement incentives to the donators need to be put into place. l) If Nexus wanted to avoid the financial obligations/infrastructure, I'm sure Amazon wouldn't mind a partnership where Nexus uses their "cheers" system since they charge a profit overhead for the "cheers" but this could be money that helped also support the Nexus site. 3) The idea of voluntarily rewarding a modder's time and effort is still much more appealing than having the game developers gaining compensation for their failures and lack of features in a game thus having a conflict of interest in offloading their responsibilities and also benefitting from them but it requires the minimalist amount of pain and effort to make the process a completed transaction rather than just a passing consideration of something that should be done at some future point when they wouldn't rather be playing the game. 4) With simply the endorsing of mods being very low, the assumption is that only a percentage of the actual endorsers would likely provide any financial appreciation to the modders. This may have some creedence but it also might be a misunderstanding of the value or importance of "endorsing" and what it actually means. Does it mean it works perfectly, was easy to install, a reference of things I personally like or a reference of something that improves or fixes the game itself? What if you like it conceptually but it was buggy and hard to get to work with your other mods? Do you endorse? What if it was mostly good but had some issues or one annoying flaw? This ambiguity makes "endorsing" something that may be more desirable to avoid as it also seemingly has little beneficial impact that the number of downloads and comments wouldn't also serve as a clearer and simpler endorsement. In summary, Twitch has proven that the donation model can work but the infrastructure where both sides feel the reward and the ease of the process has to be put in place to make it enticing and mutually beneficial. The contributors need to see evidence that they are appreciated and it will make a difference to the quality of modding without making it an expectation that destroys the orginal benevolent community based culture of modding. One thing Twitch has proved is that giving begets giving so people must not see it as uncommon or out of the ordinary or they will feel that way about it so people need to see the "appreciation" others give to reinforce a culture of support. I think the greed seen from the Bethesda/Steam fiasco has done much damage to the perception of goodwill in the modding community but not irrepairably so that people can't get some compensation for their efforts without looking to get rich using abusive corporate power. The way it is done now on Nexus requires you to be adamant about donating to get it done rather than just a modest desire to show appreciation and that might as well be like crossing the Grand Canyon in getting actual donation results especially for users with many mods ironically.

 

 

@PCRoolz; I never read walls o'text that are even half-a-screen long, let alone one that covers two. :armscrossed:

Yeah, what he said...... And all one long paragraph? I doubt anyone is going to actually try and read that.....

[Ankahet]

This is a very easy thing to get around. You can create a patreon stating you are a developer, have it with the same name that you use on the sites you upload mods to and just dont post files on it. Simply have a link to the sites you upload to. They are still able to download the mod(s) for free. Choosing to donate is NOT the same as buying something. Bethesda cannot order a CND or sue you for people deciding to give you money of their own free will.

[Thandal]

As @Ankahet indicated, the key point regarding any content posted to the Nexus "Files Area" (e.g. mods, vids, guides, or links to same) is that they must be available to download for free. As long as that requirement is met for things posted to the Nexus, developers are welcome to do what they want on their own sites regarding soliciting for donations... or anything else. :thumbsup: