Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[Rendu]

I hate to say it, but this is all probably moot. Right now Bethesda is simply biding their time. Paid mods will come to us all eventually. The paid modding debacle is far from over. The corporations will find a way to get their pound of flesh. It's what they do. It's all they do. Yes. Bethesda is a terminator and it absolutely will not stop, ever, until it has your money. I do feel torn because I know how much time I've spent as a mod user getting all this stuff to work. I can only imagine the countless hours of hard work that goes into many of the mods on Nexus. I wish there was a way for the mod authors to not get screwed and make a buck or two cuz they deserve it. I don't think that is ever going to happen. This most recent debacle is just a case in point. Bethesda teased mod authors with a few (very few) dollars and then everything hit the fan. I feel sure there were a lot of authors out there looking at all their downloads and views and counting those unhatched chickens. But I feel certain that any big monster company out there, not just Bethesda, will make absolutely sure that almost every dime goes into the corporate coffers and not into the pockets of the mod authors however deserving they may be.

[Dragonfire12]

In response to post #28573564.

Rendu wrote: I hate to say it, but this is all probably moot. Right now Bethesda is simply biding their time. Paid mods will come to us all eventually. The paid modding debacle is far from over. The corporations will find a way to get their pound of flesh. It's what they do. It's all they do. Yes. Bethesda is a terminator and it absolutely will not stop, ever, until it has your money. I do feel torn because I know how much time I've spent as a mod user getting all this stuff to work. I can only imagine the countless hours of hard work that goes into many of the mods on Nexus. I wish there was a way for the mod authors to not get screwed and make a buck or two cuz they deserve it. I don't think that is ever going to happen. This most recent debacle is just a case in point. Bethesda teased mod authors with a few (very few) dollars and then everything hit the fan. I feel sure there were a lot of authors out there looking at all their downloads and views and counting those unhatched chickens. But I feel certain that any big monster company out there, not just Bethesda, will make absolutely sure that almost every dime goes into the corporate coffers and not into the pockets of the mod authors however deserving they may be.

There are three things this that I don't see a lot of people discussing.

1. Chumps, Punks and Trolls, Oh my! These people seem entitled to perfection in a mod that they get for free, you can see it in the post sections, in rude often hostile posts. Steam is so bad that I don't even go there anymore for any reason (at least the Nexus has given us a Troll Bat). What will this maelstrom be like when money is involved?

2. Most of the mods I download I end up not using, even many I have endorsed and donated to through Pay Pal. The reason is that so many mods cause conflicts with so many mods. Sorting out mod conflict is sometimes a nightmare scenario. So if I buy mod X and mods Y and Z, which I also purchased, are broken by X, what if any recourse do I have? Will they be receptive to my demanding a refund? Having purchased mods A and B, will I be willing to try C for fear, real or imagined, that it might break something?

3. What if I get a refund but keep a backup copy of the mod? What if I torrent a cracked copy of the mod? This could get so ugly so fast and it isn't a battlefield I want to step onto, it's insane. Software Piracy is an enormous issue for major corporations with armies of lawyers and lobbyists with draconian laws, etc., etc., etc., and they are losing. What hope has a person who mods for a hobby?

If mod authors don't come to the dance when Fallout 4 rolls out, if the lack of mods causes PC sales to fall 5-10% below projections on Steam, they will buckle and resolve the above issues in a satisfactory manner for all involved. Remember Steam started this and it will be a major fight before its over.

[seweryn]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

[RichWebster]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

[Deleted4782829User]

Maybe once Bethesda launches their service, you could make it so they get that "cut" they wanted, when someone donates to a mod author, if that would improve the situation at all.

[shinji72]

In response to post #28556219. #28557049, #28557104, #28559119, #28559324, #28559434, #28559484, #28559684, #28559819, #28560459, #28560764, #28560979, #28561394, #28563384 are all replies on the same post.

gezegond wrote: Simple. Allow options. Patreon is subscription based and allow people to pay monthly. You can add that functionality with paypal. Same with Flattr. Actually Flattr is a better system. Have people just generally donate an amount "overall", like $10 a month or whatever, then at the end of the month spread that amount between all the mods that they have endorsed.

You could make it so people can go into a settings menu and customize the ratios for each mod. so if they think one mod they endorsed deserves more they could tweak it, but if not or can't be bothered just distribute it evenly between all endorsed mods.

That would probably make people more selective about using the endorsed button as well, making it more meaningful as a side effect.

Damn I'm a genius. :P

Elgar82 wrote: "Make people more selective about using the endorsed button" ?!?

Are you serious ? Endorsements are incredibly and shamefully low. Even very popular mods have endorsements ratios of 5 or 6%.

icecreamassassin wrote: yeah I suggested the paypal recurring donation option months ago but I don't think it got much play, but I suggested it again above with a link. It's really absurd that we aren't just doing this because literally the issue Bethesda seems to have is that they do not want modders paid for the mod itself. They are fine with money going to modders for their overall efforts, so just giving the option for small sustained donations makes total sense IMO.

gezegond wrote: low? compared to what? endorsements are just endorsements man they're not either high or low. By making them more selective I mean that, right now I just pretty much endorse every mod I download, and I think plenty of people are the same. And then there are people who don't endorse any mods that they play. It's either all or nothing, very few are actually selecting what to endorse and what not i think

SagittariusMoon wrote: I have to agree about low endorsements. Most people just download and run, never to be seen or heard from again.

pintocat wrote: How are endorsements low? The endorse / download ratio is pretty consistent across mods generally. If mods all get endorsed by about 5-10% of the people using it, how is it any different than if 100% of people do? The endorsement count's only relevence is relative to other mods, and it's already pretty consistent across mods... if this somehow changes and now all downloads auto-endorsed mod A, and the same happened to mod B, they'll still have the same relative endorsement rate to each other. The endorsement count is nothing really. It's not an indicator of quality, since it's just yes or no... which is why I am stingy about endorsing. There's no way to say "this mod works" vs "this mod is f*#@ing amazing".

shinji72 wrote: I think it ever Paid Mods are to become the norm, the montly fee, all-you-can-eat, Netflix style subscriptions would be the way to go.

When you mod as a user you wanna try them all. Test them. Try different combination. To have to pay for every single mod you download (even a very modest fee) would go against the way people use mods.

EnaiSiaion wrote:

I have to agree about low endorsements. Most people just download and run, never to be seen or heard from again.

It is actually really hard to not endorse a mod. Ever since the introduction of welfare endorsements a year or so ago, endorsements no longer mean "this mod is really cool, let's go back and endorse it". Now they mean "I was asked to endorse this mod when I downloaded the next mod".

I assume the intention was to cater to newbie mod creators and encourage them to keep going with the equivalent of a participation trophy, but it completely defeats the point of endorsements.

Get off my lawn. :(

Jokerine wrote: "Welfare endorsements"? Yeah, because people can't just, you know, skip the endorsement window? Boo.

gezegond wrote: pintocat : "There's no way to say "this mod works" vs "this mod is f***ing amazing"."

Exactly. That's why i suggested the tweaking option. You may feel like 1 mod deserves a larger portion of your money than another. On the other hand if it's tucked behind in some settings screen it won't confuse the newbies who just want to endorse a mod.

@ shinji72 : this is like what i suggested except on nexus the monthly fee is not mandatory. You can open up a friendly message and be like "would you like to support these modders\content creators? here's how you can support them all at the same time."

EnaiSiaion wrote:

"Welfare endorsements"? Yeah, because people can't just, you know, skip the endorsement window? Boo.

They can, but they could just not come back to endorse a mod either.

It used to require some actual effort to endorse, so only users who were blown away by your mod came back to endorse it. Today, as long as your mod doesn't completely suck, it gets a steady stream of endorsements from logged in users being shown a thumb button and asked to click it.

The information conveyed by endorsements ("how many people thought your mod was awesome") has been sacrificed in the name of generating more endorsements.

:(

Arthmoor wrote: @icecreamassassin:

I suspect the recurring part is mostly what Bethesda has issue with because that converts from a "donation" to a "subscription" which is substantially different in legal terms. Once you get into recurring payments, whether it be a "recurring donation" or something more concrete like Patreon or Flattr, they may view that as crossing into commercialization. Commercializing your mods is currently against their EULA for the various CKs.

gezegond wrote: @Arthmoor: Well Dark0ne can just contact them again and ask if they would have a problem with a recurring payment and\or the global donation distribution model.

If they have a problem with that they probably just don't want modders make money from mods. They're both donation, only one is likely to be more effective. ¯\_(-_-)_/¯

vram1974 wrote: The fact less than 5 % of people return to endorse the product indicates to me a shameful sense of entitlement from gamers. At least paid mods would force users to acknowledge the hard work.

@Arthmoor Indeed the monthly subscription fee would not work here on the Nexus. (Unless the Nexus start giving Bethesda a cut, but would be a complex agreement and Dark0ne clearly stated he want Nexus to remain a haven for free modding).

But I believe a subscription fee, netflix style, would be the only, feasible way to make a Paid Workshop system work (wether run by Steam or directly by Bethesda).
I'm not going to paid 5 dollar to download a single weather mod, but I would pay 1 to 5 dollar monthly to have unlimited access to a vast archive of mods.

[AlphaSamadhi]

In response to post #28556219. #28557049, #28557104, #28559119, #28559324, #28559434, #28559484, #28559684, #28559819, #28560459, #28560764, #28560979, #28561394, #28563384, #28575869 are all replies on the same post.

gezegond wrote: Simple. Allow options. Patreon is subscription based and allow people to pay monthly. You can add that functionality with paypal. Same with Flattr. Actually Flattr is a better system. Have people just generally donate an amount "overall", like $10 a month or whatever, then at the end of the month spread that amount between all the mods that they have endorsed.

You could make it so people can go into a settings menu and customize the ratios for each mod. so if they think one mod they endorsed deserves more they could tweak it, but if not or can't be bothered just distribute it evenly between all endorsed mods.

That would probably make people more selective about using the endorsed button as well, making it more meaningful as a side effect.

Damn I'm a genius. :P

Elgar82 wrote: "Make people more selective about using the endorsed button" ?!?

Are you serious ? Endorsements are incredibly and shamefully low. Even very popular mods have endorsements ratios of 5 or 6%.

icecreamassassin wrote: yeah I suggested the paypal recurring donation option months ago but I don't think it got much play, but I suggested it again above with a link. It's really absurd that we aren't just doing this because literally the issue Bethesda seems to have is that they do not want modders paid for the mod itself. They are fine with money going to modders for their overall efforts, so just giving the option for small sustained donations makes total sense IMO.

gezegond wrote: low? compared to what? endorsements are just endorsements man they're not either high or low. By making them more selective I mean that, right now I just pretty much endorse every mod I download, and I think plenty of people are the same. And then there are people who don't endorse any mods that they play. It's either all or nothing, very few are actually selecting what to endorse and what not i think

SagittariusMoon wrote: I have to agree about low endorsements. Most people just download and run, never to be seen or heard from again.

pintocat wrote: How are endorsements low? The endorse / download ratio is pretty consistent across mods generally. If mods all get endorsed by about 5-10% of the people using it, how is it any different than if 100% of people do? The endorsement count's only relevence is relative to other mods, and it's already pretty consistent across mods... if this somehow changes and now all downloads auto-endorsed mod A, and the same happened to mod B, they'll still have the same relative endorsement rate to each other. The endorsement count is nothing really. It's not an indicator of quality, since it's just yes or no... which is why I am stingy about endorsing. There's no way to say "this mod works" vs "this mod is f*#@ing amazing".

shinji72 wrote: I think it ever Paid Mods are to become the norm, the montly fee, all-you-can-eat, Netflix style subscriptions would be the way to go.

When you mod as a user you wanna try them all. Test them. Try different combination. To have to pay for every single mod you download (even a very modest fee) would go against the way people use mods.

EnaiSiaion wrote:

I have to agree about low endorsements. Most people just download and run, never to be seen or heard from again.

It is actually really hard to not endorse a mod. Ever since the introduction of welfare endorsements a year or so ago, endorsements no longer mean "this mod is really cool, let's go back and endorse it". Now they mean "I was asked to endorse this mod when I downloaded the next mod".

I assume the intention was to cater to newbie mod creators and encourage them to keep going with the equivalent of a participation trophy, but it completely defeats the point of endorsements.

Get off my lawn. :(

Jokerine wrote: "Welfare endorsements"? Yeah, because people can't just, you know, skip the endorsement window? Boo.

gezegond wrote: pintocat : "There's no way to say "this mod works" vs "this mod is f***ing amazing"."

Exactly. That's why i suggested the tweaking option. You may feel like 1 mod deserves a larger portion of your money than another. On the other hand if it's tucked behind in some settings screen it won't confuse the newbies who just want to endorse a mod.

@ shinji72 : this is like what i suggested except on nexus the monthly fee is not mandatory. You can open up a friendly message and be like "would you like to support these modders\content creators? here's how you can support them all at the same time."

EnaiSiaion wrote:

"Welfare endorsements"? Yeah, because people can't just, you know, skip the endorsement window? Boo.

They can, but they could just not come back to endorse a mod either.

It used to require some actual effort to endorse, so only users who were blown away by your mod came back to endorse it. Today, as long as your mod doesn't completely suck, it gets a steady stream of endorsements from logged in users being shown a thumb button and asked to click it.

The information conveyed by endorsements ("how many people thought your mod was awesome") has been sacrificed in the name of generating more endorsements.

:(

Arthmoor wrote: @icecreamassassin:

I suspect the recurring part is mostly what Bethesda has issue with because that converts from a "donation" to a "subscription" which is substantially different in legal terms. Once you get into recurring payments, whether it be a "recurring donation" or something more concrete like Patreon or Flattr, they may view that as crossing into commercialization. Commercializing your mods is currently against their EULA for the various CKs.

gezegond wrote: @Arthmoor: Well Dark0ne can just contact them again and ask if they would have a problem with a recurring payment and\or the global donation distribution model.

If they have a problem with that they probably just don't want modders make money from mods. They're both donation, only one is likely to be more effective. ¯\_(-_-)_/¯

vram1974 wrote: The fact less than 5 % of people return to endorse the product indicates to me a shameful sense of entitlement from gamers. At least paid mods would force users to acknowledge the hard work.

shinji72 wrote: @Arthmoor Indeed the monthly subscription fee would not work here on the Nexus. (Unless the Nexus start giving Bethesda a cut, but would be a complex agreement and Dark0ne clearly stated he want Nexus to remain a haven for free modding).

But I believe a subscription fee, netflix style, would be the only, feasible way to make a Paid Workshop system work (wether run by Steam or directly by Bethesda).
I'm not going to paid 5 dollar to download a single weather mod, but I would pay 1 to 5 dollar monthly to have unlimited access to a vast archive of mods.

Do not know if this matters to anyone talking about the rate of endorsements on mods.

But I know personally that I would endorse more frequently if using mod organizer to download was not cutting me off from endorsing.

Currently when I go to mods I have several weeks or months of experience with, I cannot endorse them because the site tells me I am not allowed to endorse a mod I do not have.

I have to download mods twice (once with mod organizer, once manually) in order to endorse mods -- given hard drive space limitations and monthly internet traffic caps, this is not always an option unless a mod is both exceptional quality and low in relative file size.

[SjoertJansen]

In response to post #28556219. #28557049, #28557104, #28559119, #28559324, #28559434, #28559484, #28559684, #28559819, #28560459, #28560764, #28560979, #28561394, #28563384, #28575869, #28576329 are all replies on the same post.

gezegond wrote: Simple. Allow options. Patreon is subscription based and allow people to pay monthly. You can add that functionality with paypal. Same with Flattr. Actually Flattr is a better system. Have people just generally donate an amount "overall", like $10 a month or whatever, then at the end of the month spread that amount between all the mods that they have endorsed.

You could make it so people can go into a settings menu and customize the ratios for each mod. so if they think one mod they endorsed deserves more they could tweak it, but if not or can't be bothered just distribute it evenly between all endorsed mods.

That would probably make people more selective about using the endorsed button as well, making it more meaningful as a side effect.

Damn I'm a genius. :P

Elgar82 wrote: "Make people more selective about using the endorsed button" ?!?

Are you serious ? Endorsements are incredibly and shamefully low. Even very popular mods have endorsements ratios of 5 or 6%.

icecreamassassin wrote: yeah I suggested the paypal recurring donation option months ago but I don't think it got much play, but I suggested it again above with a link. It's really absurd that we aren't just doing this because literally the issue Bethesda seems to have is that they do not want modders paid for the mod itself. They are fine with money going to modders for their overall efforts, so just giving the option for small sustained donations makes total sense IMO.

gezegond wrote: low? compared to what? endorsements are just endorsements man they're not either high or low. By making them more selective I mean that, right now I just pretty much endorse every mod I download, and I think plenty of people are the same. And then there are people who don't endorse any mods that they play. It's either all or nothing, very few are actually selecting what to endorse and what not i think

SagittariusMoon wrote: I have to agree about low endorsements. Most people just download and run, never to be seen or heard from again.

pintocat wrote: How are endorsements low? The endorse / download ratio is pretty consistent across mods generally. If mods all get endorsed by about 5-10% of the people using it, how is it any different than if 100% of people do? The endorsement count's only relevence is relative to other mods, and it's already pretty consistent across mods... if this somehow changes and now all downloads auto-endorsed mod A, and the same happened to mod B, they'll still have the same relative endorsement rate to each other. The endorsement count is nothing really. It's not an indicator of quality, since it's just yes or no... which is why I am stingy about endorsing. There's no way to say "this mod works" vs "this mod is f*#@ing amazing".

shinji72 wrote: I think it ever Paid Mods are to become the norm, the montly fee, all-you-can-eat, Netflix style subscriptions would be the way to go.

When you mod as a user you wanna try them all. Test them. Try different combination. To have to pay for every single mod you download (even a very modest fee) would go against the way people use mods.

EnaiSiaion wrote:

I have to agree about low endorsements. Most people just download and run, never to be seen or heard from again.

It is actually really hard to not endorse a mod. Ever since the introduction of welfare endorsements a year or so ago, endorsements no longer mean "this mod is really cool, let's go back and endorse it". Now they mean "I was asked to endorse this mod when I downloaded the next mod".

I assume the intention was to cater to newbie mod creators and encourage them to keep going with the equivalent of a participation trophy, but it completely defeats the point of endorsements.

Get off my lawn. :(

Jokerine wrote: "Welfare endorsements"? Yeah, because people can't just, you know, skip the endorsement window? Boo.

gezegond wrote: pintocat : "There's no way to say "this mod works" vs "this mod is f***ing amazing"."

Exactly. That's why i suggested the tweaking option. You may feel like 1 mod deserves a larger portion of your money than another. On the other hand if it's tucked behind in some settings screen it won't confuse the newbies who just want to endorse a mod.

@ shinji72 : this is like what i suggested except on nexus the monthly fee is not mandatory. You can open up a friendly message and be like "would you like to support these modders\content creators? here's how you can support them all at the same time."

EnaiSiaion wrote:

"Welfare endorsements"? Yeah, because people can't just, you know, skip the endorsement window? Boo.

They can, but they could just not come back to endorse a mod either.

It used to require some actual effort to endorse, so only users who were blown away by your mod came back to endorse it. Today, as long as your mod doesn't completely suck, it gets a steady stream of endorsements from logged in users being shown a thumb button and asked to click it.

The information conveyed by endorsements ("how many people thought your mod was awesome") has been sacrificed in the name of generating more endorsements.

:(

Arthmoor wrote: @icecreamassassin:

I suspect the recurring part is mostly what Bethesda has issue with because that converts from a "donation" to a "subscription" which is substantially different in legal terms. Once you get into recurring payments, whether it be a "recurring donation" or something more concrete like Patreon or Flattr, they may view that as crossing into commercialization. Commercializing your mods is currently against their EULA for the various CKs.

gezegond wrote: @Arthmoor: Well Dark0ne can just contact them again and ask if they would have a problem with a recurring payment and\or the global donation distribution model.

If they have a problem with that they probably just don't want modders make money from mods. They're both donation, only one is likely to be more effective. ¯\_(-_-)_/¯

vram1974 wrote: The fact less than 5 % of people return to endorse the product indicates to me a shameful sense of entitlement from gamers. At least paid mods would force users to acknowledge the hard work.

shinji72 wrote: @Arthmoor Indeed the monthly subscription fee would not work here on the Nexus. (Unless the Nexus start giving Bethesda a cut, but would be a complex agreement and Dark0ne clearly stated he want Nexus to remain a haven for free modding).

But I believe a subscription fee, netflix style, would be the only, feasible way to make a Paid Workshop system work (wether run by Steam or directly by Bethesda).
I'm not going to paid 5 dollar to download a single weather mod, but I would pay 1 to 5 dollar monthly to have unlimited access to a vast archive of mods.

AlphaSamadhi wrote: Do not know if this matters to anyone talking about the rate of endorsements on mods.

But I know personally that I would endorse more frequently if using mod organizer to download was not cutting me off from endorsing.

Currently when I go to mods I have several weeks or months of experience with, I cannot endorse them because the site tells me I am not allowed to endorse a mod I do not have.

I have to download mods twice (once with mod organizer, once manually) in order to endorse mods -- given hard drive space limitations and monthly internet traffic caps, this is not always an option unless a mod is both exceptional quality and low in relative file size.

I find this low endorsement rate discussion strange... What is an endorsement really... Why do people drive so much for getting them?

Modding is a hobby I enjoy, I share my work with people for them to enjoy it as well, if they do, great, if they don't... So what? Seriously?

I'd rather go back to the time they didn't exist, I rather get 1 good comment than a 1000 endorsements. I also liked the old endorsement system. Yes only a select few came back to endorse, but at least they come back out of their own accord. Endorsing has become click bait these days. You get a pop-up, click all the buttons and done. What value does that hold? Non. I stopped endorsing mods unless I am blown away by the mod, small or big. The reason endorsments are so consistent overall, simply is because it has become routine and click bait. They aren't even a tool to measure the quality of a mod anymore, they used to...

What makes a mod deserve an endorsement is also dependent on the users perception. I find it a stupid system in it's current form.

I hate donations... But that is me. To me adding the pop-up is like saying you deserve other peoples money for your hobby? How is that giving to the community? expecting something in return is never giving. It seems a shift in society driven to get something in return for everything we do these days. Why have we stopped doing things purely for our own enjoyment and the pleasure of being able to share? Isn't a polite thank you enough anymore? Is gratitude only measured in coin? To me it feels like doing volunteering work whilst expecting payment...If you really need the money, I recommend a job.

EDIT: @EnaiSiaion I see we are in agreement on endorsements, apologies for basically copying you. Hadn't read your comment yet. Edited September 10, 2015 by SjoertJansen

[sunshinenbrick]

Um... so how can Sprked be getting away with it?

 

Are the the legal wheels in motion or is it some sort of umbrella movement?

[gezegond]

In response to post #28556219. #28557049, #28557104, #28559119, #28559324, #28559434, #28559484, #28559684, #28559819, #28560459, #28560764, #28560979, #28561394, #28563384, #28575869, #28576329, #28577084 are all replies on the same post.

gezegond wrote: Simple. Allow options. Patreon is subscription based and allow people to pay monthly. You can add that functionality with paypal. Same with Flattr. Actually Flattr is a better system. Have people just generally donate an amount "overall", like $10 a month or whatever, then at the end of the month spread that amount between all the mods that they have endorsed.

You could make it so people can go into a settings menu and customize the ratios for each mod. so if they think one mod they endorsed deserves more they could tweak it, but if not or can't be bothered just distribute it evenly between all endorsed mods.

That would probably make people more selective about using the endorsed button as well, making it more meaningful as a side effect.

Damn I'm a genius. :P

Elgar82 wrote: "Make people more selective about using the endorsed button" ?!?

Are you serious ? Endorsements are incredibly and shamefully low. Even very popular mods have endorsements ratios of 5 or 6%.

icecreamassassin wrote: yeah I suggested the paypal recurring donation option months ago but I don't think it got much play, but I suggested it again above with a link. It's really absurd that we aren't just doing this because literally the issue Bethesda seems to have is that they do not want modders paid for the mod itself. They are fine with money going to modders for their overall efforts, so just giving the option for small sustained donations makes total sense IMO.

gezegond wrote: low? compared to what? endorsements are just endorsements man they're not either high or low. By making them more selective I mean that, right now I just pretty much endorse every mod I download, and I think plenty of people are the same. And then there are people who don't endorse any mods that they play. It's either all or nothing, very few are actually selecting what to endorse and what not i think

SagittariusMoon wrote: I have to agree about low endorsements. Most people just download and run, never to be seen or heard from again.

pintocat wrote: How are endorsements low? The endorse / download ratio is pretty consistent across mods generally. If mods all get endorsed by about 5-10% of the people using it, how is it any different than if 100% of people do? The endorsement count's only relevence is relative to other mods, and it's already pretty consistent across mods... if this somehow changes and now all downloads auto-endorsed mod A, and the same happened to mod B, they'll still have the same relative endorsement rate to each other. The endorsement count is nothing really. It's not an indicator of quality, since it's just yes or no... which is why I am stingy about endorsing. There's no way to say "this mod works" vs "this mod is f*#@ing amazing".

shinji72 wrote: I think it ever Paid Mods are to become the norm, the montly fee, all-you-can-eat, Netflix style subscriptions would be the way to go.

When you mod as a user you wanna try them all. Test them. Try different combination. To have to pay for every single mod you download (even a very modest fee) would go against the way people use mods.

EnaiSiaion wrote:

I have to agree about low endorsements. Most people just download and run, never to be seen or heard from again.

It is actually really hard to not endorse a mod. Ever since the introduction of welfare endorsements a year or so ago, endorsements no longer mean "this mod is really cool, let's go back and endorse it". Now they mean "I was asked to endorse this mod when I downloaded the next mod".

I assume the intention was to cater to newbie mod creators and encourage them to keep going with the equivalent of a participation trophy, but it completely defeats the point of endorsements.

Get off my lawn. :(

Jokerine wrote: "Welfare endorsements"? Yeah, because people can't just, you know, skip the endorsement window? Boo.

gezegond wrote: pintocat : "There's no way to say "this mod works" vs "this mod is f***ing amazing"."

Exactly. That's why i suggested the tweaking option. You may feel like 1 mod deserves a larger portion of your money than another. On the other hand if it's tucked behind in some settings screen it won't confuse the newbies who just want to endorse a mod.

@ shinji72 : this is like what i suggested except on nexus the monthly fee is not mandatory. You can open up a friendly message and be like "would you like to support these modders\content creators? here's how you can support them all at the same time."

EnaiSiaion wrote:

"Welfare endorsements"? Yeah, because people can't just, you know, skip the endorsement window? Boo.

They can, but they could just not come back to endorse a mod either.

It used to require some actual effort to endorse, so only users who were blown away by your mod came back to endorse it. Today, as long as your mod doesn't completely suck, it gets a steady stream of endorsements from logged in users being shown a thumb button and asked to click it.

The information conveyed by endorsements ("how many people thought your mod was awesome") has been sacrificed in the name of generating more endorsements.

:(

Arthmoor wrote: @icecreamassassin:

I suspect the recurring part is mostly what Bethesda has issue with because that converts from a "donation" to a "subscription" which is substantially different in legal terms. Once you get into recurring payments, whether it be a "recurring donation" or something more concrete like Patreon or Flattr, they may view that as crossing into commercialization. Commercializing your mods is currently against their EULA for the various CKs.

gezegond wrote: @Arthmoor: Well Dark0ne can just contact them again and ask if they would have a problem with a recurring payment and\or the global donation distribution model.

If they have a problem with that they probably just don't want modders make money from mods. They're both donation, only one is likely to be more effective. ¯\_(-_-)_/¯

vram1974 wrote: The fact less than 5 % of people return to endorse the product indicates to me a shameful sense of entitlement from gamers. At least paid mods would force users to acknowledge the hard work.

shinji72 wrote: @Arthmoor Indeed the monthly subscription fee would not work here on the Nexus. (Unless the Nexus start giving Bethesda a cut, but would be a complex agreement and Dark0ne clearly stated he want Nexus to remain a haven for free modding).

But I believe a subscription fee, netflix style, would be the only, feasible way to make a Paid Workshop system work (wether run by Steam or directly by Bethesda).
I'm not going to paid 5 dollar to download a single weather mod, but I would pay 1 to 5 dollar monthly to have unlimited access to a vast archive of mods.

AlphaSamadhi wrote: Do not know if this matters to anyone talking about the rate of endorsements on mods.

But I know personally that I would endorse more frequently if using mod organizer to download was not cutting me off from endorsing.

Currently when I go to mods I have several weeks or months of experience with, I cannot endorse them because the site tells me I am not allowed to endorse a mod I do not have.

I have to download mods twice (once with mod organizer, once manually) in order to endorse mods -- given hard drive space limitations and monthly internet traffic caps, this is not always an option unless a mod is both exceptional quality and low in relative file size.

SjoertJansen wrote: I find this low endorsement rate discussion strange... What is an endorsement really... Why do people drive so much for getting them?

Modding is a hobby I enjoy, I share my work with people for them to enjoy it as well, if they do, great, if they don't... So what? Seriously?

I'd rather go back to the time they didn't exist, I rather get 1 good comment than a 1000 endorsements. I also liked the old endorsement system. Yes only a select few came back to endorse, but at least they come back out of their own accord. Endorsing has become click bait these days. You get a pop-up, click all the buttons and done. What value does that hold? Non. I stopped endorsing mods unless I am blown away by the mod, small or big. The reason endorsments are so consistent overall, simply is because it has become routine and click bait. They aren't even a tool to measure the quality of a mod anymore, they used to...

What makes a mod deserve an endorsement is also dependent on the users perception. I find it a stupid system in it's current form.

I hate donations... But that is me. To me adding the pop-up is like saying you deserve other peoples money for your hobby? How is that giving to the community? expecting something in return is never giving. It seems a shift in society driven to get something in return for everything we do these days. Why have we stopped doing things purely for our own enjoyment and the pleasure of being able to share? Isn't a polite thank you enough anymore? Is gratitude only measured in coin? To me it feels like doing volunteering work whilst expecting payment...If you really need the money, I recommend a job.

EDIT: @EnaiSiaion I see we are in agreement on endorsements, apologies for basically copying you. Hadn't read your comment yet.

@SjoertJansen: I hate paid modding for all the same reasons you mentioned, but donations are optional, they won't change the free spirit of modding, and people will not do paid modding here. I suspect as soon as Fallout 4's paid modding scheme is revealed all the people who expect to be paid for their work will go there and leave Nexus.

But donations are completely optional. Some people might want to donate to someone even though they know they don't expect to be "paid". And it's optional both ways since modders themselves can opt-in and out of (accepting) donations. What you are suggesting is we take those options away from people so they will be "forced" to follow our vision of free modding, then that would not be "freedom" much anymore would it?

What I'm suggesting is improvements to the system, so it will work better for people who DO want to donate, and people who DO want to accept donations. For people who don't want to have anything to do with money the experience will be exactly the same.