Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28756709. #28784094 is also a reply to the same post.

MotoSxorpio wrote:

Well, it really fascinates me how some people hate their own rights so much to the extent that they'd go to unimaginable lengths to argue against their own rights that the laws clearly grant them. It really saddens me to see that the majority of people, specially here in a supposedly creative community, are essentially brainwashed to see the corporations as their indisputable overlords ruling over their lives and are unwilling to even consider any opposing views or even facts. Not unlike other fanatics. No wonder these companies can get away with almost anything.

I can't be bothered to try to enlighten you lot any further, if you want to believe you have no rights over your own work despite the fact it is something laws clearly grant you, then so be it. Have fun worshiping Bethesda. I'm outta here.

You don't read much, do you?

 

This thread is about getting money into the pockets of mod authors here. The problem seems to be surrounding the EULA we all sign.

 

Or did I miss something?

WightMage wrote: He doesn't understand that:

1) You don't actually own any of the rights to mods created using Bethesda's software. When you run Creation Kit you have to agree to a TOS which says as much..

and

2) If Dark0ne makes even one wrong move, Bethesda can and will sue him and the Nexus into non existence.

I'd say there's some idiocy there stemming from entitlement and a gross misunderstanding of what kinds of "rights" we actually have, but, eh.

But we're all ok with that?

We're ok with EULAs that say we don't own our games? I'm not. It's dumb and arguments like this arise simply because of how dumb it is. I know it's there to prevent stuff like piracy and plagiarism, but I don't see why it has to extend to what we do with our own damn copies of the game.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28756709.

 

 

 

MotoSxorpio wrote:

Well, it really fascinates me how some people hate their own rights so much to the extent that they'd go to unimaginable lengths to argue against their own rights that the laws clearly grant them. It really saddens me to see that the majority of people, specially here in a supposedly creative community, are essentially brainwashed to see the corporations as their indisputable overlords ruling over their lives and are unwilling to even consider any opposing views or even facts. Not unlike other fanatics. No wonder these companies can get away with almost anything.

 

I can't be bothered to try to enlighten you lot any further, if you want to believe you have no rights over your own work despite the fact it is something laws clearly grant you, then so be it. Have fun worshiping Bethesda. I'm outta here.

You don't read much, do you?

This thread is about getting money into the pockets of mod authors here. The problem seems to be surrounding the EULA we all sign.

Or did I miss something?

He doesn't understand that:

 

1) You don't actually own any of the rights to mods created using Bethesda's software. When you run Creation Kit you have to agree to a TOS which says as much..

 

and

 

2) If Dark0ne makes even one wrong move, Bethesda can and will sue him and the Nexus into non existence.

 

I'd say there's some idiocy there stemming from entitlement and a gross misunderstanding of what kinds of "rights" we actually have, but, eh.

 

 

I admire and support the passion. We will need it in the future.

 

Entitlement is really just a result of unbridled capitalist privatisation, where everybody seems to be in a race to be more successful and famous than everybody else. The problems come with scarcity, as economics rarely factors in the unpopular difficulty of convincing people that enough is enough... Especially when sometimes there seems to be one rule for some and another rule for others. Tensions are also risen when we see more and more things going behind paywalls througout our lives.

 

People are afraid, sometimes miseducated, and feel they can no longer depend on the people who are supposed to be keeping them safe. It is important that those of us who realise it, try to help, and not turn away.

 

This is where the spirit of modding that we all talk about, will be decided. C'mon my fellow terraformers!

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28756709. #28784094 is also a reply to the same post.

 

 

 

MotoSxorpio wrote:

Well, it really fascinates me how some people hate their own rights so much to the extent that they'd go to unimaginable lengths to argue against their own rights that the laws clearly grant them. It really saddens me to see that the majority of people, specially here in a supposedly creative community, are essentially brainwashed to see the corporations as their indisputable overlords ruling over their lives and are unwilling to even consider any opposing views or even facts. Not unlike other fanatics. No wonder these companies can get away with almost anything.

 

I can't be bothered to try to enlighten you lot any further, if you want to believe you have no rights over your own work despite the fact it is something laws clearly grant you, then so be it. Have fun worshiping Bethesda. I'm outta here.

You don't read much, do you?

This thread is about getting money into the pockets of mod authors here. The problem seems to be surrounding the EULA we all sign.

Or did I miss something?

WightMage wrote: He doesn't understand that:

 

1) You don't actually own any of the rights to mods created using Bethesda's software. When you run Creation Kit you have to agree to a TOS which says as much..

 

and

 

2) If Dark0ne makes even one wrong move, Bethesda can and will sue him and the Nexus into non existence.

 

I'd say there's some idiocy there stemming from entitlement and a gross misunderstanding of what kinds of "rights" we actually have, but, eh.

But we're all ok with that?

 

We're ok with EULAs that say we don't own our games? I'm not. It's dumb and arguments like this arise simply because of how dumb it is. I know it's there to prevent stuff like piracy and plagiarism, but I don't see why it has to extend to what we do with our own damn copies of the game.

 

 

No there are many who are not and if you read around you will see the arguements you describe littered everywhere.

 

Ownership and the issues of subscription based businesses are in conflict all over the industry. We are the underdog however, mainly because many were caught somewhat off-guard and that we may be a little less galvanised due to not wanting to turn what we love into someone else's profit machine.

[R3trograde]

In response to post #28756709. #28784094, #28790649 are all replies on the same post.

MotoSxorpio wrote:

Well, it really fascinates me how some people hate their own rights so much to the extent that they'd go to unimaginable lengths to argue against their own rights that the laws clearly grant them. It really saddens me to see that the majority of people, specially here in a supposedly creative community, are essentially brainwashed to see the corporations as their indisputable overlords ruling over their lives and are unwilling to even consider any opposing views or even facts. Not unlike other fanatics. No wonder these companies can get away with almost anything.

I can't be bothered to try to enlighten you lot any further, if you want to believe you have no rights over your own work despite the fact it is something laws clearly grant you, then so be it. Have fun worshiping Bethesda. I'm outta here.

You don't read much, do you?

 

This thread is about getting money into the pockets of mod authors here. The problem seems to be surrounding the EULA we all sign.

 

Or did I miss something?

WightMage wrote: He doesn't understand that:

1) You don't actually own any of the rights to mods created using Bethesda's software. When you run Creation Kit you have to agree to a TOS which says as much..

and

2) If Dark0ne makes even one wrong move, Bethesda can and will sue him and the Nexus into non existence.

I'd say there's some idiocy there stemming from entitlement and a gross misunderstanding of what kinds of "rights" we actually have, but, eh.

Ghatto wrote: But we're all ok with that?

We're ok with EULAs that say we don't own our games? I'm not. It's dumb and arguments like this arise simply because of how dumb it is. I know it's there to prevent stuff like piracy and plagiarism, but I don't see why it has to extend to what we do with our own damn copies of the game.

End users have access to many rights that cannot be stripped away by clicking 'agree' on a EULA or TOS. The issue is *money*, not rights. Bethesda has more of it than the people they sue, so they can afford to 'raise' with a shitty hand, and bluff anyone into submission.

If you have a 90% chance of winning a case where the best outcome is that you don't lose everything you own, and the worst possible outcome is that you *do* lose everything you own, do you risk going to court? No. Corporations know this, and that is why they aggressively litigate against anything that moves.

[aradjha]

In response to post #28756709. #28784094, #28790649, #28791419 are all replies on the same post.

MotoSxorpio wrote:

Well, it really fascinates me how some people hate their own rights so much to the extent that they'd go to unimaginable lengths to argue against their own rights that the laws clearly grant them. It really saddens me to see that the majority of people, specially here in a supposedly creative community, are essentially brainwashed to see the corporations as their indisputable overlords ruling over their lives and are unwilling to even consider any opposing views or even facts. Not unlike other fanatics. No wonder these companies can get away with almost anything.

I can't be bothered to try to enlighten you lot any further, if you want to believe you have no rights over your own work despite the fact it is something laws clearly grant you, then so be it. Have fun worshiping Bethesda. I'm outta here.

You don't read much, do you?

 

This thread is about getting money into the pockets of mod authors here. The problem seems to be surrounding the EULA we all sign.

 

Or did I miss something?

WightMage wrote: He doesn't understand that:

1) You don't actually own any of the rights to mods created using Bethesda's software. When you run Creation Kit you have to agree to a TOS which says as much..

and

2) If Dark0ne makes even one wrong move, Bethesda can and will sue him and the Nexus into non existence.

I'd say there's some idiocy there stemming from entitlement and a gross misunderstanding of what kinds of "rights" we actually have, but, eh.

Ghatto wrote: But we're all ok with that?

We're ok with EULAs that say we don't own our games? I'm not. It's dumb and arguments like this arise simply because of how dumb it is. I know it's there to prevent stuff like piracy and plagiarism, but I don't see why it has to extend to what we do with our own damn copies of the game.

R3trograde wrote: End users have access to many rights that cannot be stripped away by clicking 'agree' on a EULA or TOS. The issue is *money*, not rights. Bethesda has more of it than the people they sue, so they can afford to 'raise' with a shitty hand, and bluff anyone into submission.

If you have a 90% chance of winning a case where the best outcome is that you don't lose everything you own, and the worst possible outcome is that you *do* lose everything you own, do you risk going to court? No. Corporations know this, and that is why they aggressively litigate against anything that moves.

End users do have rights. But by agreeing to the EULA which is to say by agreeing to buy and use their software you do so on their terms. This isn't a matter of opinion.

While yes you could take them to court and yes often the side with the most resources ends up winning, the core of the problem here is that we DON'T have rights beyond the rights extended by developpers. So we don't have much of a court case. They own the CK, they own Skyrim - what else is there to tak about? We can't "negotiate" our ownership of modded content for a game which is not copyrighted to us. It's not even up for debate. Now whether this should change is a separate issue.

I can't help but think that everyone is getting their panties in a bunch talking about rights. This discussion is about finding a better way to use donations to circumvent the entire issue.

[aradjha]

In response to post #28772169.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

There needs to be room for both platforms, for two reasons:

1. A dollar is not the same the world over and economies are different. This would create exclusivity and limit the entries to market which would affect the overall appeal of the market. It changes the relationship within the fanbase too, where monetary value is the measurement used for everything.

2. Leading on from the above, it would eventually stifle the creativity, experimentation and freedom that remains special and somewhat unique to the modding world.

Choice is important. Having the best of both worlds where young, inexperienced or less advantaged (but equally creative) people are not isolated but can gradually move into the market. A paid system could run alongside and the two can interact and gain a more insightful and fulfilling relationship.

It's a market structure that already exists, it is just expanding. But I think removing the avenues for free modding altogether would be unhealthy for the franchise and business in general.

Major, well done and constantly updated mods have the strongest argument for charging users - but many mods are simple tweaks and small additions that are a one-time only -you try it out and see if it works for you. I retract my previous statement. Modding is pretty harmless so I don't think sites like the Nexus can down simply because a platform for well organized paid modding comes into place. They will, as you say, coexist, with mod authors and users alike probably using both as a resource. A mod author is not required to sell content.

That being said, paid modding will never come to be unless it is under the direct control of the developpers, full stop.
Donations are fine, but there must be a line between donation and solicitation that is more or less subjectively defined, but cannot be crossed.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28756709. #28784094, #28790649, #28791419 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

MotoSxorpio wrote:

Well, it really fascinates me how some people hate their own rights so much to the extent that they'd go to unimaginable lengths to argue against their own rights that the laws clearly grant them. It really saddens me to see that the majority of people, specially here in a supposedly creative community, are essentially brainwashed to see the corporations as their indisputable overlords ruling over their lives and are unwilling to even consider any opposing views or even facts. Not unlike other fanatics. No wonder these companies can get away with almost anything.

 

I can't be bothered to try to enlighten you lot any further, if you want to believe you have no rights over your own work despite the fact it is something laws clearly grant you, then so be it. Have fun worshiping Bethesda. I'm outta here.

You don't read much, do you?

This thread is about getting money into the pockets of mod authors here. The problem seems to be surrounding the EULA we all sign.

Or did I miss something?

WightMage wrote: He doesn't understand that:

 

1) You don't actually own any of the rights to mods created using Bethesda's software. When you run Creation Kit you have to agree to a TOS which says as much..

 

and

 

2) If Dark0ne makes even one wrong move, Bethesda can and will sue him and the Nexus into non existence.

 

I'd say there's some idiocy there stemming from entitlement and a gross misunderstanding of what kinds of "rights" we actually have, but, eh.

Ghatto wrote: But we're all ok with that?

 

We're ok with EULAs that say we don't own our games? I'm not. It's dumb and arguments like this arise simply because of how dumb it is. I know it's there to prevent stuff like piracy and plagiarism, but I don't see why it has to extend to what we do with our own damn copies of the game.

R3trograde wrote: End users have access to many rights that cannot be stripped away by clicking 'agree' on a EULA or TOS. The issue is *money*, not rights. Bethesda has more of it than the people they sue, so they can afford to 'raise' with a shitty hand, and bluff anyone into submission.

 

If you have a 90% chance of winning a case where the best outcome is that you don't lose everything you own, and the worst possible outcome is that you *do* lose everything you own, do you risk going to court? No. Corporations know this, and that is why they aggressively litigate against anything that moves.

End users do have rights. But by agreeing to the EULA which is to say by agreeing to buy and use their software you do so on their terms. This isn't a matter of opinion.

 

While yes you could take them to court and yes often the side with the most resources ends up winning, the core of the problem here is that we DON'T have rights beyond the rights extended by developpers. So we don't have much of a court case. They own the CK, they own Skyrim - what else is there to tak about? We can't "negotiate" our ownership of modded content for a game which is not copyrighted to us. It's not even up for debate. Now whether this should change is a separate issue.

 

I can't help but think that everyone is getting their panties in a bunch talking about rights. This discussion is about finding a better way to use donations to circumvent the entire issue.

 

 

I totally agree with you up to a point, there are wider issues of rights regarding this kind of employment and the legal areas surrounding it.

 

 

In response to post #28772169.

 

 

 

sunshinenbrick wrote:

There needs to be room for both platforms, for two reasons:

 

1. A dollar is not the same the world over and economies are different. This would create exclusivity and limit the entries to market which would affect the overall appeal of the market. It changes the relationship within the fanbase too, where monetary value is the measurement used for everything.

 

2. Leading on from the above, it would eventually stifle the creativity, experimentation and freedom that remains special and somewhat unique to the modding world.

 

Choice is important. Having the best of both worlds where young, inexperienced or less advantaged (but equally creative) people are not isolated but can gradually move into the market. A paid system could run alongside and the two can interact and gain a more insightful and fulfilling relationship.

 

It's a market structure that already exists, it is just expanding. But I think removing the avenues for free modding altogether would be unhealthy for the franchise and business in general.

Major, well done and constantly updated mods have the strongest argument for charging users - but many mods are simple tweaks and small additions that are a one-time only -you try it out and see if it works for you. I retract my previous statement. Modding is pretty harmless so I don't think sites like the Nexus can down simply because a platform for well organized paid modding comes into place. They will, as you say, coexist, with mod authors and users alike probably using both as a resource. A mod author is not required to sell content.

 

That being said, paid modding will never come to be unless it is under the direct control of the developpers, full stop.

Donations are fine, but there must be a line between donation and solicitation that is more or less subjectively defined, but cannot be crossed.

 

 

 

I agree, as the Nexus has its grounds in supporting all games it may very well remain strong and free, however there is a major pull factor in the whole industry through Bethesda. i.e. a lot of people may never have heard of or gotten into modding before Skyrim.

 

It is possible that Bethesda can DRM any content created for it and force it through their platform (and consequentially underground through piracy...), however we all know and they probably have figured out that it could very well be a disastrous move... but then companies can make greedy and silly moves.

 

What also makes people edgy is that many franchises have moved into purely paid content and subscription based models before, and suffered in many ways (from a gamer and creative perspective) because of it.

 

It could also be that they should have left this well alone and just reaped the rewards that were already coming in (which were plentiful). However, not only did they get itchy feet but there is the valid point that some modders work hard enough to be earning a living. What is naughty is that they are claiming too much of the pie, both in taking such a large cut but also not properly recognising or defining the issues regarding intellectual property and labour. Its all a very fine balancing act that will take a lot of planning and input from Bethesda - and if they get it right there will be companies lining up to follow suit.

[simtam]

 

We can't "negotiate" our ownership of modded content for a game which is not copyrighted to us. It's not even up for debate. Now whether this should change is a separate issue.

What should change? The copyright law? We don't in general negotiate our ownership, because it's clear: authors of modded content are owners of their mods, and applying the copyright law, a lot of mods are derivative works of the original game (not all of them, for instance, ENB graphic filters). That's about it.

 

Also by using Creation Kit you allow Bethesda and friends to use your mod pretty much freely. For real-life example, they could post a screenshot of game modded with your mod on their marketing blog without even crediting you by your name or modding nick. But if they would do so carelessly, they are exposed to the risk that the mod contains content owned by a third party, who only allowed that content to be used for playing the mod privately, not showcasing on some commercial blogs.

[sunshinenbrick]

There is a pretty profound shift in that we are in, generally, uncharted territory here.

 

Corporations are getting smart in the way that they are trying to 're-write' the rules in how intellectual property currently works.

 

It has been stated by others that it is not possible to copyright such fundamental things such as lines, letters, colours, languages etc... etc... this is true, however these rules do not yet apply for 'virtual worlds'. That is to say that just by entering the Creation Kit/Skyrim/Bethesda world you are actually entering a completely different system of rules in which you are agreeing that, basically, they are the Creators.

 

I know it sounds outlandish but this is the nub of it. This becomes all the more evident when you look at things like Occulus Rift and HoloLens where you are going to see this kind of argument cropping up all over the place. If you don't believe it then look at how companies are actually buying and copyrighting extinct or near to extinct animal DNA...

 

We all play the games and watch the movies... is it really any surprise this kind of insanity is happening??

 

 

they are exposed to the risk that the mod contains content owned by a third party, who only allowed that content to be used for playing the mod privately, not showcasing on some commercial blogs.

 

 

This is about the only thing that stops the insanity. But only until those third parties are bought out by the hungriest caterpillars.

[gamefever]

In response to post #28802114.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

There is a pretty profound shift in that we are in, generally, uncharted territory here.

 

Corporations are getting smart in the way that they are trying to 're-write' the rules in how intellectual property currently works.

 

It has been stated by others that it is not possible to copyright such fundamental things such as lines, letters, colours, languages etc... etc... this is true, however these rules do not yet apply for 'virtual worlds'. That is to say that just by entering the Creation Kit/Skyrim/Bethesda world you are actually entering a completely different system of rules in which you are agreeing that, basically, they are the Creators.

 

I know it sounds outlandish but this is the nub of it. This becomes all the more evident when you look at things like Occulus Rift and HoloLens where you are going to see this kind of argument cropping up all over the place. If you don't believe it then look at how companies are actually buying and copyrighting extinct or near to extinct animal DNA...

 

We all play the games and watch the movies... is it really any surprise this kind of insanity is happening??

 

 

they are exposed to the risk that the mod contains content owned by a third party, who only allowed that content to be used for playing the mod privately, not showcasing on some commercial blogs.

 

 

This is about the only thing that stops the insanity. But only until those third parties are bought out by the hungriest caterpillars.

Then people need to wake up and realize that the Creation Kit is not the only available free to use Developer Tool Kit available.

In fact that bridge was long ago past and at the present time there are a whole variety pack of programs available for use that have much more generous terms of use than the Geck or CK do.

Since this new reality has obviously crept up on the community as it were...I understand that it may be difficult to realize but there are modders leaving the system as it is for better tools, better terms, and better outcomes.

In fact many of my favorite modders have already crossed that bridge as it were.

Not too long now and more with the passion and ability will do the same.

The current status que relies too much on fresh faces with no skill.

_________________________________________
'
Its not a matter of copyright law.

Its a matter of those with the skill realizing that we indeed have it in ourselves to create our own content that is under law ours.

That content can then be put into programs and software with tools available that have a minor fee in comparison and then packaged sold as a game, across many platforms beyond just the computer.

_____________________

Which leads me to my point.

What is Bethsada and interested parties going to do about that?

In this present Time.

We have it in our capacity to team up and create a game that we can sell as ours.

Many of us don't even need to go that far as it is currently with the options available to create a meaningful income for ourselves. Edited September 18, 2015 by gamefever