Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[MrTastix]

In response to post #29063224.

Turtleman7055 wrote: I've never been against artists (modders) being compensated by some sort of pay system, whether that be donations or the other way.

What I have a problem with is paying for a mod that flatly doesn't work, or works fine til another mod is added. Then the user is stuck with a mod they paid for but can't use. And then it's up to the consumer to figure out which mod is the conflict.

And you have to admit there are a huge number of those kinds of mods.

Where is the protection of the consumer?

That's another very real problem with paid modding that I don't think many modders are responsible enough to handle on their own.

Modders are modders. Most aren't businessmen or lawyers and don't take into account the concerns of the law or consumer complaints when making their creations. It's not that they don't care, its that they don't know. Few people, modders or not, actively think about the law unless they're willingly breaking it. Creators in general just want to make their crap without hassle and legal issues are yet another hassle.

Paid modding is just a huge can of worms. The moment you demand payment is the moment people are legally entitled to complain and ask for refunds if it doesn't work the way it should.

Consider that most modders can't even do the most basic of developmental procedures: Document their work. Good documentation (and I don't just mean in installing something but in fully explaining what it does) is rare enough in video games let alone in modding.

If you cannot even be bothered to tell me how your invention works then why would I have faith that you'll help me when it doesn't? Edited September 28, 2015 by MrTastix

[nightscrawl]

In response to post #29001134.

WaltC wrote: I have to say that I find the notion of people seeking patrons for their computer work very medieval...;) Back in Shakespeare's day patrons were sought to "support the arts" and I have no problem with the concept today. People are free to do what they like with their own money. But I would agree wholeheartedly that you keep the Nexus out of all of that--that goes far afield of what you've done so wonderfully with here, imo. You'd risk getting embroiled with lawyers--and, frankly, nothing is worth the stench that often results from such undesirable contact. Let them chase their ambulances elsewhere--I agree!

Game modding I see is much like amateur sports: if they find out you are a "pro" or have ever been a "pro" they kick you out of the amateur leagues...;) I of course suggest nothing so regimented for game modding & modders, but it seems to me there exists a real danger of forgetting the amateur spirit of modding--it never has been a professional vocation. OTOH, it may well serve to get someone into a more professional position relative to game creation, and that's a reward in itself. I also completely agree with the propriety of the system the way it is in that modders are allowed to ask for donations without making promises or jumping into implied contracts--that is a much better place for the Nexus to be in as well as for the modder himself, imo. I think you are doing things right as the Nexus has as much interest in keeping its audience happy as it does in keeping its modders happy. If modders want more then they should make their own arrangements with these patron services--because that's not what the Nexus is, is it? A "patron service," I mean.

But sometimes the user really wants to donate without ever being asked or solicited because they like the mod so much and, in some cases, can't imagine playing the game without it. I think there should be an avenue for those people.

[AshenShugarII]

Bethesda do get a cut though, insofar as addition sales generated by the availability of fantastic third-party content.

 

I suppose we'll have to wait and see how things pan out with Fallout 4. Lessons will undoubtedly be learned (for all parties).

[blackjackgarry]

In response to post #29063224. #29068924 is also a reply to the same post.

Turtleman7055 wrote: I've never been against artists (modders) being compensated by some sort of pay system, whether that be donations or the other way.

What I have a problem with is paying for a mod that flatly doesn't work, or works fine til another mod is added. Then the user is stuck with a mod they paid for but can't use. And then it's up to the consumer to figure out which mod is the conflict.

And you have to admit there are a huge number of those kinds of mods.

Where is the protection of the consumer?

MrTastix wrote: That's another very real problem with paid modding that I don't think many modders are responsible enough to handle on their own.

Modders are modders. Most aren't businessmen or lawyers and don't take into account the concerns of the law or consumer complaints when making their creations. It's not that they don't care, its that they don't know. Few people, modders or not, actively think about the law unless they're willingly breaking it. Creators in general just want to make their crap without hassle and legal issues are yet another hassle.

Paid modding is just a huge can of worms. The moment you demand payment is the moment people are legally entitled to complain and ask for refunds if it doesn't work the way it should.

Consider that most modders can't even do the most basic of developmental procedures: Document their work. Good documentation (and I don't just mean in installing something but in fully explaining what it does) is rare enough in video games let alone in modding.

If you cannot even be bothered to tell me how your invention works then why would I have faith that you'll help me when it doesn't?

Correct. And the same goes for fixing and support - over months/years!!!

As soon as I pay for a 'software' - and a mod is software - I have rights, in legal terms. Meaning, if it not holds what it says, I can complain, ask for fixing or even get a refund!

So, every 'hobby/free time' modder who 'sells his mod' should be aware of it - even when 99% of the people/users do not complain.


...and... ALSO, be prepared to pay TAXES!!!!

Here in germany, you can sell/buy/do a lot under the 'cover' of a hobby. E.g. repair old cars, sell them, buy another old one - start over... Same goes for ebay and other 'trades' (eg collect stamps/coins; help 'neighbours' with pc Problems, etc.).
They called minor/hobby business (aka 'Liebhaberei') - and no taxes have to be payed. But ONE thing is clear, as soon as you want money to earn, its over - then you'll pay taxes.
I think most countries have similar laws. At least you'll have to make an extra annual tax declaration - and that's always a pleasure...

In one sentence: As soon as someone starts payed modding, she/he IS an entrepreneur, and she/he should also know the ways and deeps of business.

Dont take this wrong - If a modder things she/he's good enought, then start it. In the first years you'*ll not see much 'incomings'. So no tax problems. As you develop more-and-more, and the business is growing - well that's the way it should be. Nearly most software companies started this way, so, why not through modding? Or you'll get other possibilities - see Falskaar.

[sunshinenbrick]

A breakthrough ruling in the UK which is also to include bugs in games!

 

This is potentially an explosive topic that may effect the entire game/modding industry, so a good suggestion for a new thread... but where is the best place to start it??

[RGMage2]

must be of satisfactory quality, based on what a reasonable person would expect, taking into account the price

 

quoted from the posted link.

 

That would let most modders selling their mods for $1 (which most reasonable people would agree is practically free) off the hook for almost anything.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

must be of satisfactory quality, based on what a reasonable person would expect, taking into account the price

 

quoted from the posted link.

 

That would let most modders selling their mods for $1 (which most reasonable people would agree is practically free) off the hook for almost anything.

 

 

While in the USA a dollar may be worth little... across the world it is not the always the case.

 

Also there is more detail to the ruling (was listening to a news article) as it also takes into account the number of units sold, as in the more people affected by the issue the more the case for a refund might be.

 

What is good about it though, is the strength it gives customers over being sold half finished games - unless advertised as such ;)

[RGMage2]

No disputing that a dollar means more to some than others. A 14 year old gamer with no income should place a higher value on a dollar than an adult with a regular job... um, well, actually it could be the other way around. lol Someone who gets up at 5am every morning and works for their money probably values it more than someone who gets it handed to them by mom and/or dad.

 

It's like this though, when I was 5 years old I could walk into a smoke shop and for 1 dollar I could fill up a paper bag with all kinds of candies. I would take that bag home and show my mother, and she would tell me that when she was 5 years old she could do the same thing for a penny. The way it is now 1 dollar has even less value than a 1940 penny. There is almost nothing you would want that you could buy with a dollar. Can't buy a candy bar, can't buy a can of pop, can't buy a pack of gum, can't buy a cup of coffee, might buy an empty paper cup but not the coffee to fill it.

 

Let me put it this way, if you were driving in your car and you stopped at a red light, and you saw a 1 dollar coin laying on the road in front of you, almost no one would get out of their car to pick it up. So we are not going to fight over 1 dollar. A seller would give a refund even if it wasn't required, and more often than not a buyer wouldn't even ask for it, they would just write it off to experience.

 

But all of this is irrelevant, because modders putting their mods up for sale will not in fact be the vendors and will have no control over these things. Steam or Bethesda will be the vendor and set all rules for transaction. Refunds will be given without any consultation with the mod author, and in the contract authors agree to, will be a clause stipulating that the vendor has the right to claw back any money refunded, from future mod author revenue.

 

Also it will be US law that rules, and US tax law that will need to be dealt with first.

[sunshinenbrick]

No disputing that a dollar means more to some than others. A 14 year old gamer with no income should place a higher value on a dollar than an adult with a regular job... um, well, actually it could be the other way around. lol Someone who gets up at 5am every morning and works for their money probably values it more than someone who gets it handed to them by mom and/or dad.

 

It's like this though, when I was 5 years old I could walk into a smoke shop and for 1 dollar I could fill up a paper bag with all kinds of candies. I would take that bag home and show my mother, and she would tell me that when she was 5 years old she could do the same thing for a penny. The way it is now 1 dollar has even less value than a 1940 penny. There is almost nothing you would want that you could buy with a dollar. Can't buy a candy bar, can't buy a can of pop, can't buy a pack of gum, can't buy a cup of coffee, might buy an empty paper cup but not the coffee to fill it.

 

Let me put it this way, if you were driving in your car and you stopped at a red light, and you saw a 1 dollar coin laying on the road in front of you, almost no one would get out of their car to pick it up. So we are not going to fight over 1 dollar. A seller would give a refund even if it wasn't required, and more often than not a buyer wouldn't even ask for it, they would just write it off to experience.

 

But all of this is irrelevant, because modders putting their mods up for sale will not in fact be the vendors and will have no control over these things. Steam or Bethesda will be the vendor and set all rules for transaction. Refunds will be given without any consultation with the mod author, and in the contract authors agree to, will be a clause stipulating that the vendor has the right to claw back any money refunded, from future mod author revenue.

 

Also it will be US law that rules, and US tax law that will need to be dealt with first.

 

I see what you are saying, but none of this helps the modder...

 

Via ensuring 'less liability' by lowering the price (not even sure it works that way), the modder would have to work harder for less.

 

The money would go back from whence it came... and if a mod proves to be a problem it would be pulled before the game itself was. However little a dollar is, if many of them are put together then it becomes exponentially more significant. Unless of course it was a unique defect, but with digital products this becomes less and less likely anyway.

 

At the moment it is by and large still the laws of the country in which the point of sale takes place that govern. With the introduction of things like TTIP however, that may change.

[BlackKnightss]

I think Bethesda is not going to push for paid mods in Fallout 4.

 

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/bethesda-plans-revisit-skyrim-paid-mods-after-fallout-4-459131

http://kotaku.com/fallout-4-devs-have-no-plans-for-paid-mods-1712305902

 

Yeah, because if they say that Fallout 4 will have paid mods nobody will pre-purchase Fallout 4. But I bet they will try again in the future. Probably after Fallout 4 has exhausted its "hype" and after Fallout 4's modding community is big enough. Hopefully we could beat them then.