Enclave pretty much defeated at this point?

[minngarm]

Osprey has Service ceiling, ISA, ft (m) : 24,700 (7,529) So assuming the vertibird can duplicate this in fallout, it would be beyond conventional anti aircraft (man portable.) that would have been in ready use in the 60s and 70s, even the stinger is only about 15k feet in range.

[ModelV]

How do you know there is such thing as a high altitude vertibird?

 

I was pointing out that a high altitude vertibird is not a special kind of vertibird its one flying higher then the low altitude you see ingame when dropping troops or dropping bombs. They have them fly like that for visual appeal but in reality you dont traditionally fly that as it makes it very easy for you to get shot down.

[Gracinfields]

I high Doubt the Vertbirds have both the payload capasity and the needed mutions bay to actually carry out a bombing run. From what I have seen they have primarly Infantry support weapons ment to protect the troops that are disembarking and provided very limited CAS (Close air support) should the grunts needed. None of these weapons can be used at a distance that keey the craft safe from ground fire nor the yeild to do significant damage to the structure of the BOS base. With the current BOS spotters on the walls and the ammount of noise coming for the Vertibird the BOS would likely spot it coming a good distance off and be able to return fire in enough force to drive any air threat off. Edited October 7, 2011 by Gracinfields

[ModelV]

I high Doubt the Vertbirds have both the payload capasity and the needed mutions bay to actually carry out a bombing run. From what I have seen they have primarly Infantry support weapons ment to protect the troops that are disembarking and provided very limited CAS (Close air support) should the grunts needed. None of these weapons can be used at a distance that keey the craft safe from ground fire nor the yeild to do significant damage to the structure of the BOS base. With the current BOS spotters on the walls and the ammount of noise coming for the Vertibird the BOS would likely spot it coming a good distance off and be able to return fire in enough force to drive any air threat off.

 

 

Were you even listening? The bird can fly above the range of any of the weapons the BoS have before the attack on the purifying and even if capacity is low they can make several runs because they can just land and load more.

 

Also they dont even need to use explosives. Ever heard of nerve gas?

Edited October 7, 2011 by ModelV

[Gracinfields]

Yea, and what is Nerve gas going to do to people wearing NBC (Nuclear/Biologic/Chemical) rated power armor nothing. And you say what about the people wearing any you do release how fast soliders are trained to get into their Chem suits? Pretty dang fast. Also you didn't seem to notice I also mentioned where the vertibird would carry the said payload. Externally? Where on its airframe could they even attach it there are no rail mounts even on the airframe to even allow that. They wouldn't even be able to carry a 500 lb bomb under the landing gear. In fact the heaviest weapon payload the vertibrd can carry is the mininukes that the player can use and they wouldn't do jack against a hardern location like the Citidel.

[minngarm]

Mininukes are quite small, about on par with a 120mm mortar round, with a little less length to it. they could easily use a auto loading cannon to fire them for CAS operations, as for the high altitude bombing, you could convert one to drop larger explosives at the cost of troop capacity, but the limited uses of it really negates the need to convert especially with such a limited supply of them. Then firing at high altitudes with a 120mm is groselly inaccurate so yea, a bombing run would be out of the picture, but an air strike is right up their alley.

 

http://www.dtic.mil/dticasd/sbir/sbir012/A01-021A.GIF 120mm mortar round.

 

And Nerve Gas? Doesnt sound like model knows to much about power armor, filtration systems, or basic chemical warfare. =p Now suppose you wont see the irony in that, but its a good hint for ya to be less of an ass in these discussions kid.

Edited October 7, 2011 by minngarm

[ModelV]

Setting aside the fact that no power armor in F3 is resistant to gas agents found in the game...

 

Assuming the Troopers glad in full power armor at the time would be safe what about the scribes, initiates, knights that werent wearing armor at the time and the paladins who dont to wear their helmets?

 

Initiates dont know how to use power armor and even for the guys who do power armor is slow to get into and you need special equipment to get in on people(Lone wanderer doesnt because of bad game mechanics) and i havent seen many hazmats suits floating around the Pentagon but i suppose they may have them on hand for head scribes still damage from such an attack would be catastrophic. Oh and its very likely the brotherhood's best paladins(who dont wear helmets) will be outside trying to shoot them down and thus be the first to die.

[marharth]

I don't see why a vertibird couldn't just launch a few mininukes at it.

 

Would be in and out, if a player can carry 50 mininukes why can't a vertibird?

 

To my knowledge the pentagon in FO is just concrete. Don't see why mininukes couldn't break through and screw stuff up.

[Tranquillus]

Seeing as it was essentially the US's military headquarters (presumably all the way up till 2077), and taking into account the more-militaristic-than-OTL timeline of Fallout, it seems reasonable to assume that it's more than 'just' concrete.

 

Mini-nukes being weightless is a game contrivance, mini-nukes most probably don't weigh nothing.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Tranquillus

[Shantih]

The capital wasteland brotherhood and west coast enclave were always a joke in terms of series continuity.

 

In Fallout 1 (84 years after the bombs fell) the Brotherhood consisted of the remnants of the military forces who were stationed at the Mariposa military base. They were a small organisation made up of the descendants of those soldiers. They rarely accepted new applicants, in fact the players initiation was intended to be a suicide mission, since they didn't think anyone could go to the heavily irradiated remains of the Glow (formerly West Tek Research Facility) and survive. Even only 84 years after the war power armour suits were so rare that the only people who got to wear them were paladins. Everyone else (initiates etc) had to suffice with combat armour. The player had to either repair the power armour suit he found or trick the Brotherhood into giving him one. They were so non-interventionist and reluctant to engage in warfare that they refused to even send anyone to deal with the mutant army until the player was able to convince them that the mutant army was real and that if the Brotherhood didn't act right away then it would soon become strong enough to overrun the Brotherhood's bunker.

 

By the time Fallout 2 rocked around in 2241 (80 years later) the Brotherhood had been greatfly reduced in power and influence. Their war with the NCR damaged them further.

 

Then suddenly Fallout 3 rocks around. Not only does the Brotherhood which had been in decline since Fallout 1 suddenly have enough spare men to send dozens of them across the entire country (!) on zero evidence, but they have enough spare suits of power armour to equip every single person who wants one. They were even handing them out to raw initiates like our dead scripted death friend Initiate Reddin. To make things even more laughable Mr Lyons decided that simply marching his troops across thousands of kilometres of dangerous territory and keeping to themselves would not be a good idea. No, he decided it would be a swell thing to go into The Pitt and kill a whole bunch of raiders there. So we've gone from a Brotherhood that was non-interventionist and acting only in the fact of irresistable evidence, growing smaller and then engaging in a long and costly war which reduced their falling strength even more dramatically, to one that somehow has the strength and resources to send an entire unit equipped with power armour across the country on the guess that there might be something there. Bethesda was able to one-up their own ridiculousness of course by making the 'western' Brotherhood decide that instead of gathering technology as it had originally planned it should 'fight the good fight' by protecting the people over there from Super Mutants (don't even get me started on them, all though I will point out everything that is wrong with Supermutants on the east cost if someone wishes to ask me to). They tried to cover this by saying "oh but but, there were some Brotherhood members who wanted to keep doing what the 'real' Brotherhood does - we're calling them the outcasts, cause they are outcast from the Brotherhood of Steel". Sure.

 

The reason for these changes is obvious - Bethesda needed a 'good guy' for their game and they needed a 'fallout faction' so they could say "hey look! It's Fallouty!".

 

Obsidians Brotherhood of Steel is much more like the real thing. They are a falling power in retreat. Falling back to a final few hidden bunkers, keeping to themselves and their technology and not worrying about what's going on outside. You could imagine that if Bethesda had been making this game the Brotherhood would have been on the frontlines fighting against the legion!

 

Same thing happened with the Enclave. Contrary to what someone said earlier in the thread there are not 'hundreds of thousands of them'. If anything the Enclave was smaller than the Brotherhood since there were both less people in the Enclave to start with and they didn't allow anyone not born 'pure' aka on the oil rig in at all. In Fallout 2 they had two bases (in the whole world). Navarro, which was their outpost on the mainland, and the oil rig, which was their main base. Main base as in that's where most of the members of the Enclave went just before the war started (the Enclave was a shadow government organisation unknown to the vast majority of the US government, not the descendant of the US government itself as another person earlier said). When the player destroyed the oil rig with a nuke they effectively destroyed most of the Enclave, since most of their forces were there. The Enclave was not a massive operation.

 

Fast forward to 2008 and suddenly the Enclave had more troops and vertibirds to spare for the west coast than they had for their entire primary place of operations. The reason for this is clear as well. Bethesda needed a 'bad guy' and they needed another 'fallout faction' for that good old fashioned "Falloutiness".

 

In answer to the original posters question - yes. Even assuming that there were more bases than what the Enclave had in Fallout 2 the Enclave is spent as a force. There may be a base left in Chicago as mentioned in ED-E's voice logs, but there is nothing lefts but the remnants on the west coast and fulll power armour clad tribal initiates from the east coast have hunted down all Enclave on that side of the country.

 

QFT.

 

If you've played through Fallout 2 you know that the Chosen One has defeated the Enclave and all that is left of this faction are minor groups that weren't in the Enclave main base (the oil rig) or Navarro.

 

If you consider Fallout 3 then the defeat of the Enclave at Raven Rock is yet another nail in their coffin.