Why do people hate Fallout 4 so much?

[tartarsauce2]

baseline fallout 4 was seriously lacking in story and fleshing out, on further playthrough it has *very* interesting dungeons at times though, and while I hear the DLC is small, it's generally well done where it exists - and I can say this about automatron at any rate even if I haven't played the other two, but I also have paid attention to the general feeling
the good news on top of this is that they were quite good about including little modder's resources in for things that were desired that might pose a problem to the general community and/or more newbie modders (assault rifle, taking over settlements/raiding them system, the lever action rifle, harpoon gun)

as for concept artistry, look, concept art defines the very attitude of the people working on the project, do you know who the face of blizzard is? metzen, not those others, even WITH WoW being its biggest franchise
metzen, and samwise

to be clear, concept artistry the way adamowicz did it from what I'm looking at of his work, and I'm going to be very honest I rarely if ever get the feeling I got from looking at his work... sets everything up, when you're looking at the world and how it is, the tone, the themes, it defines how the game's operating, and this means what kinds of quests would be in keeping with, or out of touch with the game even

the reason jar jar binks is so jarring, is because it's jar jar binks, in star wars, not jar jar binks in teletubbies, samurai jack's concepts define the tone of the series before the first animations are even started

the people doing the little things that are important are generally guided by a vision and that vision if it's good enough, can make even "mediocre" talents sing wonderfully, that's the best way I can describe it, a good concept artist can bring out the latent enthusiasm, passion and creative drive that may be weaker in some people, or just used less often/fully by people normally, I can hardly see someone like moira brown or that one absolutely annoying poindexter working out as characters much in fallout 4 quite like they do in 3 for instance, each individual piece is part of a whole after all
and deacon for instance, while being pretty cool, wouldn't have quite the impact in FO3 as he does in FO4 based on the situations, or at least he'd not be quite so, well fleshed out, his easy going style would be extremely jarring and while that itself could be played for value, the nature of the game kind of pre-empts aspects and situations that make deacon work so well in FO4

Edited September 12, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[mkborgelt13]

baseline fallout 4 was seriously lacking in story and fleshing out, on further playthrough it has *very* interesting dungeons at times though, and while I hear the DLC is small, it's generally well done where it exists - and I can say this about automatron at any rate even if I haven't played the other two, but I also have paid attention to the general feeling

the good news on top of this is that they were quite good about including little modder's resources in for things that were desired that might pose a problem to the general community and/or more newbie modders (assault rifle, taking over settlements/raiding them system, the lever action rifle, harpoon gun)

 

as for concept artistry, look, concept art defines the very attitude of the people working on the project, do you know who the face of blizzard is? metzen, not those others, even WITH WoW being its biggest franchise

metzen, and samwise

 

to be clear, concept artistry the way adamowicz did it from what I'm looking at of his work, and I'm going to be very honest I rarely if ever get the feeling I got from looking at his work... sets everything up, when you're looking at the world and how it is, the tone, the themes, it defines how the game's operating, and this means what kinds of quests would be in keeping with, or out of touch with the game even

 

the reason jar jar binks is so jarring, is because it's jar jar binks, in star wars, not jar jar binks in teletubbies, samurai jack's concepts define the tone of the series before the first animations are even started

 

the people doing the little things that are important are generally guided by a vision and that vision if it's good enough, can make even "mediocre" talents sing wonderfully, that's the best way I can describe it, a good concept artist can bring out the latent enthusiasm, passion and creative drive that may be weaker in some people, or just used less often/fully by people normally, I can hardly see someone like moira brown or that one absolutely annoying poindexter working out as characters much in fallout 4 quite like they do in 3 for instance, each individual piece is part of a whole after all

and deacon for instance, while being pretty cool, wouldn't have quite the impact in FO3 as he does in FO4 based on the situations, or at least he'd not be quite so, well fleshed out, his easy going style would be extremely jarring and while that itself could be played for value, the nature of the game kind of pre-empts aspects and situations that make deacon work so well in FO4

 

I agree 100% but the person supplying the creative direction does not need to be called a "concept artist," it can be anyone with enough of a creative force and diligence to implement their ideas.

[tartarsauce2]

ahh, but concept art is one of the most important features of these things, the first spark of possibilities, giving direction to a realm of infinite possibilities
granted maybe it doesn't *need to be* but I suspect there's high potential for it to be a vital thing

in any case, I think adam adamowicz through sheer virtue of his abilities was that central pillar to an extent, he added a number of notes to his works as well, little things to define the experience one has in the world of his creation as it were, realized by the works of others
not that others didn't also have important bits, but his facilitation powers were quite good apparently

https://www.flickr.com/photos/47857688@N08/collections/72157629320914591/

Edited September 12, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[AGreatWeight]

ahh, but concept art is one of the most important features of these things, the first spark of possibilities, giving direction to a realm of infinite possibilities

granted maybe it doesn't *need to be* but I suspect there's high potential for it to be a vital thing

 

in any case, I think adam adamowicz through sheer virtue of his abilities was that central pillar to an extent, he added a number of notes to his works as well, little things to define the experience one has in the world of his creation as it were, realized by the works of others

not that others didn't also have important bits, but his facilitation powers were quite good apparently

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/47857688@N08/collections/72157629320914591/

 

...and this is the reason why I can't shake the nagging feeling that his death really affected (and possibly altered the course of) development of the game - hence the reason I bring this up in this thread.

Personally, I actually find it depressing when I look at Adamowicz's art - because his vision for the game outmatched the ability of the rest of the team. Just look at any of the designs for Boston City post-war, the place looks huge; then compare that to what we actually got in-game. A scaled-down, cut-back version that is hopeless at achieving the same feel of utter devastation, bar the Glowing Sea which managed to convey that but suffered from being 50% smaller than it should have been..

I extend this line of thought for the entire game-map/Commonwealth, everything is reduced.

Still, that giant question mark hangs over the game, and everyone is left wondering just how Bethesda managed to succeed so well at unfulfilling the potential that the game had.

This is just my opinion, so I don't expect anyone to agree with me. Without any first hand accounts, we'll never know for certain.

[cossayos]

Let me make one thing clear. I'm certainly not a Bethesda or Fallout 4 appologist.

 

But what I don't get is this lacking in story part. Every damn Beth game lacked in the story department. It was less obvious with Morrowind since the whole concept was novel but moving from there, you always had an unreactive NPC environment, main quests that - given the right level - could be over within a few hours and an abundance of fetch, carry and kill. FO4 is no different.

 

The civil war in Skyrim was entirely inconsequential. The lead rebel, can't even be arsed to remember his name, could lie dead in his hall an people still would go on and on about how you need to see and speak to him. And the legion still called you recruit if you managed to reach the highest possible rank. In later playthroughs I steered well clear of that part of the game so as not to break my immersion entirely.

 

Bethesda games were always that way. Lackluster story, meh side quests and a world that doesn't react to what you do or don't. I would even go as far as to say, FO4 is a tad better in that departments without reaching good status.

[mkborgelt13]

Let me make one thing clear. I'm certainly not a Bethesda or Fallout 4 appologist.

 

But what I don't get is this lacking in story part. Every damn Beth game lacked in the story department. It was less obvious with Morrowind since the whole concept was novel but moving from there, you always had an unreactive NPC environment, main quests that - given the right level - could be over within a few hours and an abundance of fetch, carry and kill. FO4 is no different.

 

The civil war in Skyrim was entirely inconsequential. The lead rebel, can't even be arsed to remember his name, could lie dead in his hall an people still would go on and on about how you need to see and speak to him. And the legion still called you recruit if you managed to reach the highest possible rank. In later playthroughs I steered well clear of that part of the game so as not to break my immersion entirely.

 

Bethesda games were always that way. Lackluster story, meh side quests and a world that doesn't react to what you do or don't. I would even go as far as to say, FO4 is a tad better in that departments without reaching good status.

 

I'm pretty sure this is a consequence of the nondeterministic nature of the games. A reactive environment in other (more linear, deterministic) games is a stage trick. Each player is going to do something a bit different, and software is not really "there yet" inregards to such intelligent response from NPCs and other game features.

 

Similar to how pathfinding works with settlement building. The shortcomings are really obvious when pathfinding lacks an environment molded around it.

 

 

 

ahh, but concept art is one of the most important features of these things, the first spark of possibilities, giving direction to a realm of infinite possibilities

granted maybe it doesn't *need to be* but I suspect there's high potential for it to be a vital thing

 

in any case, I think adam adamowicz through sheer virtue of his abilities was that central pillar to an extent, he added a number of notes to his works as well, little things to define the experience one has in the world of his creation as it were, realized by the works of others

not that others didn't also have important bits, but his facilitation powers were quite good apparently

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/47857688@N08/collections/72157629320914591/

 

...and this is the reason why I can't shake the nagging feeling that his death really affected (and possibly altered the course of) development of the game - hence the reason I bring this up in this thread.

Personally, I actually find it depressing when I look at Adamowicz's art - because his vision for the game outmatched the ability of the rest of the team. Just look at any of the designs for Boston City post-war, the place looks huge; then compare that to what we actually got in-game. A scaled-down, cut-back version that is hopeless at achieving the same feel of utter devastation, bar the Glowing Sea which managed to convey that but suffered from being 50% smaller than it should have been..

I extend this line of thought for the entire game-map/Commonwealth, everything is reduced.

Still, that giant question mark hangs over the game, and everyone is left wondering just how Bethesda managed to succeed so well at unfulfilling the potential that the game had.

This is just my opinion, so I don't expect anyone to agree with me. Without any first hand accounts, we'll never know for certain.

 

 

I don't think they considered his aesthetic style much in any of their games, honestly. It is different (better) than the kitschy americana-type stuff in FO3 and FO4. Has more of a cool sci-fi feeling to it, especially with his mechanical designs.

 

I don't like how he does clothing and clothing materials, but his scenery and mechanical aesthetic is very nice. I see several outfits in-game taken directly from his sketches. They ought to have used his set design instead, is much better!

 

Edit: A lot of what I appreciate in games is "cohesion" of writing, design, and the game world. A cool outfit is one thing, but how does it get there?

Example: Where do the BoS get their maroon cable-knit sweaters from? Who would take the time to make these? The leather obviously comes from Brahmin, OK, and there are tanning racks in FH. But maybe include set decorations of outfits in varying stages of completion.

 

I'm also confused about the temperature in the Fallout world. It is mentioned as being very hot, almost like a desert, which it resembles. By association I can accept that it gets cold at night. But why are so many outfits hot and cumbersome? If you're in a Mad-Max-esque desert, who in their right mind would wear a sweater under leather coveralls? I'd expect to see a lot more rolled-up sleeves, chopped pant legs, and unbuttoned collars.

 

Bullets -- where do they come from? I'm actually working on a mod that addresses this, but since there are (imaginary) casings strewn all over the ground, wastelanders or wasteland children could make some caps by collecting casings and selling them at trading hubs to be reloaded. In fact I imagine this would be a common job. All the ammo you shoot has most likely been shot 3 or 4 times already, since bullet cartridges of are such precise dimensions, and since you don't see any micrometers lying around, it's safe to assume the average wasteland craftsmen does not have the tools nor skill to manufacture casings by hand of uniform diameter.

 

Tl;dr I really appreciate when design choices are backed in the game world and make sense, showing more thought behind it than "it looks cool."

Edited September 12, 2016 by mkborgelt13

[tartarsauce2]

trust me they definitely used his stuff somewhat the way he designed it
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Raider_armor_(Fallout_3)

of course, when making games the issue is what you can actually pull off in a 3D environment, but that's why he's a concept artist, they take their own spin on it, and do what they can with it, there's load times, production times, disc space to consider
this is why I wouldn't denigrate the others for being less able in this way, because he's thinking up a lot of the cool stuff while they're kind of bridging the imaginative with the real and that's also hard work

as for the fallout world, is it hot? I dunno, I've always considered it to be more just "the way it is" like the desert aspect for the west coast makes sense because you're going across california or something not a single city's region, temperatures near coastal regions tend to be fairly moderate regardless of the location with exception to equatorial regions - so some of the places where it's hotter inland are normal by the sea

so with fallout 1, 2 and 4 covered, we've got... NV taking place in a desert so that's that... for fallout 3 one could argue that so many ruins and rubble make for good places to take shade under etc

I take it by your "where do they come from" question that you've seen "the shandification of fallout"?
then again wearing such heavy gear might explain why you get so thirsty so fast ingame :D
seriously, everything makes you thirsty like crazy, hunger less so

Edited September 12, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[cossayos]

 

 

I'm pretty sure this is a consequence of the nondeterministic nature of the games. A reactive environment in other (more linear, deterministic) games is a stage trick. Each player is going to do something a bit different, and software is not really "there yet" inregards to such intelligent response from NPCs and other game features.

 

 

But you're encouraged to make choices. So these choices should be reflected. That it can be done is proven by modders who take care of these issues in most Beth games. I'm no modder, but the fact that they're mostly working on their own instead of having a whole million dollar team behind them points to a simple truth. It can't be that hard to implement.

[viziel]

I think the modding community is proof that this is a good game. It just dosnt stick with certain types of gamers and thats how the world turns. For me personally I find it very addicting because the whole settlers functionality and mods really scratch my world building/crafting itch. But ya, I dont like CTD (crash to desktop) which the mods often introduce (and in some cases the game itself).

 

Everything else I feel is well worth the money and I feel people are overly critical but thats my 2 caps on the matter.

[mkborgelt13]

trust me they definitely used his stuff somewhat the way he designed it

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Raider_armor_(Fallout_3)

 

of course, when making games the issue is what you can actually pull off in a 3D environment, but that's why he's a concept artist, they take their own spin on it, and do what they can with it, there's load times, production times, disc space to consider

this is why I wouldn't denigrate the others for being less able in this way, because he's thinking up a lot of the cool stuff while they're kind of bridging the imaginative with the real and that's also hard work

 

as for the fallout world, is it hot? I dunno, I've always considered it to be more just "the way it is" like the desert aspect for the west coast makes sense because you're going across california or something not a single city's region, temperatures near coastal regions tend to be fairly moderate regardless of the location with exception to equatorial regions - so some of the places where it's hotter inland are normal by the sea

 

so with fallout 1, 2 and 4 covered, we've got... NV taking place in a desert so that's that... for fallout 3 one could argue that so many ruins and rubble make for good places to take shade under etc

 

I take it by your "where do they come from" question that you've seen "the shandification of fallout"?

then again wearing such heavy gear might explain why you get so thirsty so fast ingame :D

seriously, everything makes you thirsty like crazy, hunger less so

 

No actually I hadn't seen that video, but I looked it up just now and I agree with what he says. Makes me want to play NV, but I'm not sure if I could get past the issues I have with it.

 

I mean just thinking about "where do bullets come from" gives me ideas for quests. A single mother whose husband was killed has a kid who helps his mom pay rent by collecting spent casings. His mom doesn't like it because it's dangerous but what's to do? Well the kid has now gone missing and she asks you to find him. Right away I care more about this kid than "Shaun." Maybe you are thinking you can move in with this poor stressed out mom, huh? If you find her kid, that is. Kind of reminds you of your dead wife and missing son.

 

In an unrelated incident, a fatcat trader is raking in the caps by buying up spent casings in bulk, reloading them at a sweatshop-type place, and selling them. He even has his own "brand" which is stamped on the boxes, instead of "Circle G," what the hell is that. He has his own family to watch after and doesn't really care how he gets the spent casings, nor who gets hurt in the process. Nor does he care that his business is "bottling death" so to speak, by contributing to the violence of the wasteland.

 

This has real-world inspiration from children in 3rd world countries, I mean it's dripping with potential for "morality" and feels and what have you. Kid steps on a landmine, etc. It's not hard! So why is so much of the writing in FO4 dry? I still enjoy the game, but I mean damn, they really need new writers.

 

start with a strong foundation before you build house, and by this I mean have a solid, well-thought-out setting, with cohesive design and elements which work together, and are there because they should be, not because they are "cool."

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure this is a consequence of the nondeterministic nature of the games. A reactive environment in other (more linear, deterministic) games is a stage trick. Each player is going to do something a bit different, and software is not really "there yet" inregards to such intelligent response from NPCs and other game features.

 

 

But you're encouraged to make choices. So these choices should be reflected. That it can be done is proven by modders who take care of these issues in most Beth games. I'm no modder, but the fact that they're mostly working on their own instead of having a whole million dollar team behind them points to a simple truth. It can't be that hard to implement.

 

 

There are some technical problems that cannot be solved by today's computers. Home experiment: Put a bench down in a room full of settlers and watch them bug out. This is a variant of "dining philsophers" problem, as someone else here pointed out, that is a topic of frustration for programmers. Throwing money at it doesn't fix it, believe me, enough grant money is diverted to this cause. The best game developers can do is "hide" such things with design choices.

Edited September 12, 2016 by mkborgelt13