Who to gank: Brotherhood or Institute?

[charwo]

And this is why I love your mods so much.....

[Guest deleted2159825]

And this is why I love your mods so much.....

Thanks, man. I've got to get a grip on the GECK before any of these ideas come to fruition. Murder, Inc. will have some small-scale dilemmas, but I'll have to figure out the voiced protagonist before I get to the juicy stuff.

 

On the other hand, there's always a possibility I'll just get drunk and make my synth gorilla companion mod. That will be my legacy for FO4.

Edited December 16, 2015 by someguy2000

[Raycheetah]

 

 

But as a modder, adding it as part of a quest and even drawing parallels with the synth situation could work really well.

Presenting the player with a moral dilemma where they must choose between human or synth lives could spur some interesting choices and consequences.

 

My first mod will be largely unrelated to the core game conflict, though it will feature a synth gigolo. I tackle the important issues, you see.

 

=^[.]^=

[Moraelin]

It's not about convenience.

 

Synths have a recall code. Humans don't (outside cheap horror/sf stories.) You can expect that a human won't rat you out to the enemy, or will be loyal when under heavy fire, but someone can just say the recall code and the synth is theirs. Simply put, having a synth on watch is at the very least a security risk.

 

Synths can have hidden memories and personalities that surface when the recall code is heard. See the fugitive courser in Rivet City in Fallout 3. If a wastelander doctor in a half flooded wreck can do that, then the Institute can too. It would be trivial to plant an infiltrator synth who doesn't even know he is one, but can be flipped to remembering he's a loyal Institute agent whenever you say the word. (Not everyone wants to escape the institute, as seen in the fact that some fight to death to defend the Institute even after you allow them to evacuate. Or the fact that synths who lived a long time undercover in your settlements WILL run amok and try to kill everyone and destroy everything, instead of just going, "screw it, can you take me to the Railroad please?" And it would be trivial to treat one of them nicely for a couple of weeks before you plant them, anyway, so they stay loyal to you when you flip them.)

 

Synths retain both sets of memories when reset. Again, see the Rivet City courser. Their memories can also be up and downloaded, and their personalities adjusted. So essentially whether they want to tell all your secrets to the enemy or not, they have no choice.

 

Synths can have radio chips in their brains. See, pretty much all coursers in FO4. So essentially not only can they be all flipped remotely, but are a roaming spy drone even if they don't know they are synths.

 

Synths can be remotely teleported to the institute, if they have the right chip in the brain. Currently only coursers have that, but basically any synth can have one.

 

Synths can be reprogrammed to be loyal Institute agents again, without anything else changing about them. Again, that's something that was briefly mentioned even in FO3. Humans CAN be brainwashed, but nowhere near as quickly and seamlessly.

 

Etc.

 

And all that is not something you can remove, either. Both in FO3 and here it's amply clear that no matter how much you wipe and replace a synth's memories, the recall code still works. It's not something you can remove.

 

I know it's nice to have BS fantasy analogies to black slaves in the ol' South, or to unjustly discriminated against Japanese in WW2, but those didn't have any of that. We're pretty sure how humans work, and they don't come with recall codes and alternate personalities that can be triggered remotely. You can apply psychology to humans, you can say you know someone well enough to know they would or wouldn't do something, or rely on what you drilled, indoctrinated, or brainwashed into them, etc. But all the above bypasses all that. It's a hard-coded cheat code that the enemy can use to take over anyone you otherwise trust. It doesn't matter how well you know one, or how selfless they are, or anything, when someone can just use a cheat code to disable them, teleport them, download their brain, upload a nee personality, and plant them back within the same night.

 

And that doesn't just end when the Institute goes up in smoke, either. Any high ranking SRB agents in the field (e.g., Zimmer) could have whole lists of synths and their recall codes. That could rise to anywhere between hundreds and thousands more people if you allowed an evacuation. Even if the synths themselves might not organize against you and start the terminator uprising, there's no keeping Zimmer and others from forming their own cabal that can trigger a heck of a lot of synths against you.

 

So, again, the analogies are profoundly flawed. An argument from analogy is weak anyway, but is only valid in as much as the key aspects are covered by the analogy. Here the actual key elements are completely outside any analogies with blacks, Japanese, Jews, or whatever persecuted minority.

 

Anyway...

 

Personally I don't have to do any soul searching there, because it's not the same thing. I have no problem discriminating against a synth, where I wouldn't discriminate against any breed of human.

 

Hell, let's just say that in Blind Betrayal, I just went, "I kill anyone for 50 caps, but you are my friend! My mentor! I kill you for free." :wink:

[Guest deleted2159825]

 

 

 

But as a modder, adding it as part of a quest and even drawing parallels with the synth situation could work really well.

Presenting the player with a moral dilemma where they must choose between human or synth lives could spur some interesting choices and consequences.

 

My first mod will be largely unrelated to the core game conflict, though it will feature a synth gigolo. I tackle the important issues, you see.

 

=^[.]^=

 

Haha, that was an influence. :smile:

 

Interesting film. I just wish Kubrick could've lived to direct it.

 

 

It's not about convenience.

 

Synths have a recall code. Humans don't (outside cheap horror/sf stories.) You can expect that a human won't rat you out to the enemy, or will be loyal when under heavy fire, but someone can just say the recall code and the synth is theirs. Simply put, having a synth on watch is at the very least a security risk.

 

Synths can have hidden memories and personalities that surface when the recall code is heard. See the fugitive courser in Rivet City in Fallout 3. If a wastelander doctor in a half flooded wreck can do that, then the Institute can too. It would be trivial to plant an infiltrator synth who doesn't even know he is one, but can be flipped to remembering he's a loyal Institute agent whenever you say the word. (Not everyone wants to escape the institute, as seen in the fact that some fight to death to defend the Institute even after you allow them to evacuate. Or the fact that synths who lived a long time undercover in your settlements WILL run amok and try to kill everyone and destroy everything, instead of just going, "screw it, can you take me to the Railroad please?" And it would be trivial to treat one of them nicely for a couple of weeks before you plant them, anyway, so they stay loyal to you when you flip them.)

 

Synths retain both sets of memories when reset. Again, see the Rivet City courser. Their memories can also be up and downloaded, and their personalities adjusted. So essentially whether they want to tell all your secrets to the enemy or not, they have no choice.

 

Synths can have radio chips in their brains. See, pretty much all coursers in FO4. So essentially not only can they be all flipped remotely, but are a roaming spy drone even if they don't know they are synths.

 

Synths can be remotely teleported to the institute, if they have the right chip in the brain. Currently only coursers have that, but basically any synth can have one.

 

Synths can be reprogrammed to be loyal Institute agents again, without anything else changing about them. Again, that's something that was briefly mentioned even in FO3. Humans CAN be brainwashed, but nowhere near as quickly and seamlessly.

 

Etc.

 

I know it's nice to have BS fantasy analogies to black slaves in the ol' South, or to unjustly discriminated against Japanese in WW2, but those didn't have any of that. We're pretty sure how humans work, and they don't come with recall codes and alternate personalities that can be triggered remotely. You can apply psychology to humans, you can say you know someone well enough to know they would or wouldn't do something, or rely on what you drilled, indoctrinated, or brainwashed into them, etc. But all the above bypasses all that. It's a hard-coded cheat code that the enemy can use to take over anyone you otherwise trust. It doesn't matter how well you know one, or how selfless they are, or anything, when someone can just use a cheat code to disable them, teleport them, download their brain, upload a nee personality, and plant them back within the same night.

 

And that doesn't just end when the Institute goes up in smoke, either. Any high ranking SRB agents in the field (e.g., Zimmer) could have whole lists of synths and their recall codes. That could rise to anywhere between hundreds and thousands more people if you allowed an evacuation. Even if the synths themselves might not organize against you and start the terminator uprising, there's no keeping Zimmer and others from forming their own cabal that can trigger a heck of a lot of synths against you.

 

So, again, the analogies are profoundly flawed. An argument from analogy is weak anyway, but is only valid in as much as the key aspects are covered by the analogy. Here the actual key elements are completely outside any analogies with blacks, Japanese, Jews, or whatever persecuted minority.

 

Anyway...

 

Personally I don't have to do any soul searching there, because it's not the same thing. I have no problem discriminating against a synth, where I wouldn't discriminate against any breed of human.

 

Hell, let's just say that in Blind Betrayal, I just went, "I kill anyone for 50 caps, but you are my friend! My mentor! I kill you for free." :wink:

This is precisely why I'm going to make such a dilemma. I love the response.

 

Continues drinking and writing design doc.

 

EDIT: Interesting points above - this could have implications for my synth gigolo. Serious question - does a recall code have to be an audible command, or could it perhaps be more... "manual", e.g., a finger in the ass?

Edited December 16, 2015 by someguy2000

[Guest deleted2159825]

 

EDIT: Interesting points above - this could have implications for my synth gigolo. Serious question - does a recall code have to be an audible command, or could it perhaps be more... "manual", e.g., a finger in the ass?

Awkward silence ensues, thread dies.

[Talwyn224]

 

 

EDIT: Interesting points above - this could have implications for my synth gigolo. Serious question - does a recall code have to be an audible command, or could it perhaps be more... "manual", e.g., a finger in the ass?

Awkward silence ensues, thread dies.

 

 

:laugh:

 

When I read that last edit line I dam near snorked my beer and very nearly sprayed it over my laptop!

 

LMAO

 

Oh the possibilities of hidden code words and phrases that could be used.

 

[player on seeing an incoming radiation storm] hmm... particularly nasty weather!

[gigilo synth mishearing the words over the howling winds] Tickle my arse with a feather... command protocol over ride accepted. Please assume the position!

[player] What? Hey wait! Nooo!... arrhhhggg

[jcdenton2012]

What da fuq am I reading? :laugh:

[Moraelin]

Well, all the codes used by the Institute in the game, both in FO4 and the one instance in FO3 are pretty much Star Trek style, so to speak. An example for the runaway synths at Bunker Hill:

 

B2-57 - Theta 9 3 Stratus

Y9-15 - Beta 7 7 Tempest

Z3-22 - Gamma 4-9 Typhoon

F6-33 - Delta 6 2 Arcus

Note though that they're pretty much half a normal recall code, as the recall code is also followed by a similarly built authorization code to actually complete the sequence. The recall code is unique for each synth, but presumably the authorization code can be any from a list of valid authorizations.

 

I'm also under the impression that you have to say the synth's serial number. It is not explicitly stated in the game, mind you, but IIRC it's always done, including when you reset the Rivet City runaway courser in FO3. So it might actually be necessary.

 

Anyway, a typical reset sequence (although a made up example) would be something like, "Ex three sixy-nine, recall code Gamma Four Two Ganja, authorization Omega Nine Zero Athena." At which point you pwn.. err... own the synth.

 

Basically these guys are not the Railroad. While they do on at least one occasion use an inconspicuous sign and countersign to get an infiltrator synth to report to you, the 'cheat code' to reset a synth is not supposed to be inconspicuous. It's something used only as a last resort, and as such it's just VERY hard to guess, but otherwise about as conspicuous as being shot in the face. By Ron Jeremy :wink: Not something you'd use on the radio, is what I'm getting at.

 

The only example of a recall code that doesn't conform to the structure and could be heard accidentally is, well, a joke code from one particular compulsive liar claiming to be a synth. He's not, and it's not a real code.

[Guest deleted2159825]

What da fuq am I reading? :laugh:

Too much booze and a lack of modding tools = insane content modder.

 

@Moraelin,

Sincerely, thanks for the detailed info. I'm making dick jokes and you're delivering some nifty data. Thank you.