Alchemy - Tedious and Unnecessary?

[cheimison]

Before anyone yells, I understand that alchemy can easily be used to funnel circles of madness whereby increasingly powerful oversmithing, enchanting, and alchemical effects can be snowballed.

However, because it takes so much time and specific resources, and because I never use any potions except for this function (aside from the occasional health/stamina potion to compensate an unforseen critical hit) and because reasonably powerful potions can be bought with money I have little to spend on anyway - what's the point?

 

I have put a few mods on the game to jazz it up a bit, but whether modded or not I find this game exceptionally easy after 18+ by using either oversmithing or enchanting, both of which are far less tedious and time/weight consuming than alchemy. True, smithing ingredients are heavy, but it's easy to determine which specific ores I'll need ahead of time and buy them piecemeal along the way.

 

Yes, I could sculpt super armor or super weapons, but already with un-magicked weapons I can easily stand and be wailed upon by giants with no more effect than leveling my Block skill. Likewise, every enemy in the game. Doesn't matter who they are, I don't even have to fight them, my companions with their super-weapons can easily kill them all, and I can one-to-three hit any killable creature in the game with essentially zero risk to myself. My first character (Thor, got him up to around Level 70) was able to annihilate anything with one hit of his enchanted hammer, could buy grand soul gems by the dozen, and could oversmith a wooden sword to do more damage than pretty much any vanilla weapon in the game.

 

In the last few days I've made two characters, one a spellsword and the other a paladin - there were like two times when I was in danger of dying, these both outside fights v. wizard mobs at low levels. I had one to level 25 in two days, and my current got to l. 32 in the same time span. It's not just that they're invulnerable at high levels, but that I spend almost no time at low levels, either. Scaling the difficulty just makes fights slower, but does not make them any harder. In fact, my gear is so far beyond characters in the game that I am hardly even fighting anymore, I just loot chambers and let my dual-ebony sword wielding buddy kill the 30 skeletons or whatever.

 

This game is extremely freakin' easy and it's quite possible to get to invulnerability status simply by oversmithing and grinding, and enchantment is an even more extreme game breaker. Alchemy is just totally unecessary, having to carry the damn ingredients and potions makes it useless; and I've never been in a situation where I thought 'damn if I only had Alzerbs flying draught I'd have done much better'. If I specifically need a potion it's ridiculously easy to buy them, yes it won't be as good but so what? I'm already much too powerful to kill without even using magic. Unlike Daggerfall, a guy with absolutely no magic skills can cakewalk annihilate everything in this game unless he's leveled entirely on Pickpocket; and even the sneaky types can do so much damage with an oversmithed sneak attack as to make poison useless.

 

In Morrowind there was a lot more to do in the game, a lot more extreme benefits to being an alchemist, in Skyrim it just feels like giving Superman a magical sword, like he needs it... Oversmithing is the most straightforward, Enchanting is the most powerful, Alchemy is the tedious 3rd wheel in the whole affair whose main advantage is in enhancing the other two. Yes, some potions are super powerful and can turn you into a combat god from the pause screen, but I am already a combat god and can shield-bash a giant to death in a few seconds, so why bother?

Edited November 29, 2015 by cheimison

[Oubliette]

To be honest I've always loved alchemy (I'll sit for hours in game crafting potion after potion just because I like them whereas not a single character will ever spend a moment at a crafting rack or cooking - because B-O-R-I-N-G) but you're right, vanilla Skyrim is quiet easy compared to MW. Still, when you add in a few enemy overhauls things change quickly.

[DoctorKaizeld]

to be honest... i never use it for any but to make a bunch of gold to buy stuff to smith which i then enchant followed by selling it all and buying all the ingredients for alchemy again and repeating over and over and over again.

 

it's just a part of the game that people like, i think it was better in previous games though. i cant say though as i never used it all that much in previous games.

 

sorta like people who play sneeky types who cant figure out the point of going all Leroy Jenkins on things. it's really up to how people play. i always play as an archer and generally avoid larger weapons but when i do use larger weapons i always go with a super awesome scythe that is twice the size of my character. so in other words... everybody has their thing and yours is that you dont like alchemy. though i have to say that it is the easiest skill to hit 100 on. i usually hit it very early on it's all the magic stuff that takes forever for me.

[cheimison]

To be honest I've always loved alchemy (I'll sit for hours in game crafting potion after potion just because I like them whereas not a single character will ever spend a moment at a crafting rack or cooking - because B-O-R-I-N-G) but you're right, vanilla Skyrim is quiet easy compared to MW. Still, when you add in a few enemy overhauls things change quickly.

It seems that it's really easy to make your character basically invulnerable simply by grinding them and buying good equipment, and if you have a Perk mod that makes it so half the perks aren't garbage/tedium it's an even steeper power curve. In Morrowind the difference between a straight-warrior and a super-alchemist warrior was something like 29,900 points of Strength, in Skyrim it's hundred or so damage even at high levels. Alchemy is not necessary for anything, I don't use potions almost ever because there's no reason to, 90% of the time using the Heal spell is way more effective than bothering to gather ingredients, etc. The game is simply so easy and the alternative routes to power (sneak attack, smithing, enchantment, melee beasting) are both easier to master and more generally useful. Plus, everything except potions is a permanent effect, potions are the only thing that go away forever when you use them (along with their net worth). To my mind, being unecessarily and patently inferior I can't figure out why I'd do alchemy other than making money. From a practical standpoint characters are already too powerful, adding a tedious method to make characters too-too-powerful hardly seems like anything but an afterthought.

 

Partly because of 3rd Edition D&D logic (rogues = sniper/glass cannons) the thief character is quite capable of being a combat monster, dealing hundreds of points of damage with a frickin' dagger. If thief characters were actually wimpy guys who stole stuff and fought as a last resort it might make sense for them to use poisons and whatnot, but as it is their oversmithed glass armor and invisibility rings are enabling them to scythe through enemies just as easily as a tanked out Orc or a supermage.

 

Even if you don't grind it, there is no reason not to oversmith stuff, and even if you don't enchant, buying enchanted items is more effective than alchemy.

Edited November 29, 2015 by cheimison

[Shadeybladey]

Yes, I love Skyrim and I like Alchemy, but it is extremely Konsole Kiddie dumbed down and much easier compared with Daggerfall and Morrowind, but you can always try playing on Legendary Difficulty and then add some mods like Requiem.

[Lachdonin]

but it is extremely Konsole Kiddie dumbed down and much easier compared with Daggerfall and Morrowind

How is it dumbed down from Morrowind? If anything, its made more thoughtful by not being able to carry an entire lab in your back pocket, and limiting the horrible Fortify abuses. And it was barely existing in Daggerfall.. no ingredient tracking, no ability to make your own potions, no identifying what a potion did... If you didn't have written copies of the recipies, it wasn't a remotely usable system.

 

Alchemy as a whole in TES has always been a simplistic, poorly thought out system that is just about spamming potions. But thats not so much an issue with Alchemy, but more an issue with other and mechanics that Alchemy is reacting to. The lack of distinction in Armour (it's time to abandon Light-Medium-heavy entirely) the poor Restoration magic, and the bullet-sponge damage system are all components in Alchemy's problems.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Lachdonin

[Shadeybladey]

 

but it is extremely Konsole Kiddie dumbed down and much easier compared with Daggerfall and Morrowind

How is it dumbed down from Morrowind?

 

What? Go and play Morrowind for 1000 hours than play Skyrim.

 

Oh, I meant Skyrim is extremely Konsole Kiddie dumbed down, not Alchemy. I added that I love Alchemy at the end. Maybe I should have re-read the entire paragraph?

[ElioraArin]

I agree that Skyrim has been dumbed down, even more so than Oblivion was - you lose so much just in terms of character development & I was extremely disappointed in the game in that regard. It is one of the reasons that I have spent so much time on mods - because in my opinion without them it is quite an average game when compared to it's predecessors. I still think it is a good game, just not great like Morrowind was :D I am really hoping for big improvements in the next Elder Scrolls edition!

[seancsnm]

If Skyrim's gameplay is dumbed down, I'm alright with that. It's better not having to carry 20 hammers into every dungeon just to have to grind away repairing items. On the other hand, carrying 14k arrows is a bit unrealistic. The story is definitely dumbed down. Definitely not the most compelling one, so it's a godsend that Bethesda has allowed developers to add their own stories.

Back on topic, in my current play through I am a level 47 spellsword on adept difficulty. And an absolute wimp at that. Probably because I'm level 100 alchemy, smithing, and enchanting but far lower than that in areas that pertain to combat. Until very recently, I've literally had to let my followers deal with most combat situations because my character was such a wimp. Once I upgraded my sword to a legendary dragonbone sword things changed such that I can actually deal some damage on enemies, but arrows are still the bane of my existence. I wear ultra-light armor and 2-3 arrow hits by any guard is a death. I literally had to redo the fort invasion missions 3-4 times because a stray arrow or two from across the fort sticks me. I'm not really sure alchemy/enchant will help me become tougher, but they certainly will help me deal some extra damage so I can balance my weaknesses out. And I got filthy rich from them.

Edited November 30, 2015 by seancsnm

[fraquar]

Alchemy has it's uses depending on the players ability to integrate it with a playstyle that isn't predicated on abusing the crafting mechanics of the game. I mean if a character can 1-shot everything in the game, can stand toe to toe with a Giant and laugh at his feeble attempts to damage you with a tree; then why would a simple Frenzy poison (non Illusionist character) to be used as crowd control against a couple of bandits even register - the guy doesn't need crowd control, doesn't need a follower, doesn't need anybody because he's decked out in his oversmithed and over-enchanted garb - impervious to pain.

 

Alchemy, like the other crafting methods as well suffers from two main problems:

a) It can be used as a source of generating revenues (what a Craftsman does, use his trade to make a living), but the game has little for you to spend revenue on anyway

and

b) Much of what can be done with Alchemy is already integrated in other methods, whether permanently placed as enchantments on items or as spells in a magic branch.