Syria: Im a hard man to shock, but this left me speechless.

[Vindekarr]

Well, frankly it's the worst mess I've seen in my life:

 

Troops have been ordered onto the streets in Syria. In Saraa, thousands of army troops, snipers, helicopters and tanks are enforcing a twenty-four hour, seven days a week curfew. Anyone caught of of doors is, simply, shot where they stand. Schools have been atatcked, women and children amssacred in the streets, and troops have set about not only locking people in their houses on pain of death, but ensuring they are deprived of both water and food. Water supplies have been shut off, aircraft and snipers have set about a campaign to destroy all found rooftop water supplies, and the deathtoll is like to nothing I have ever seen in my life. I've done a lot of research on the subject of modern regimes, and conflicts. I've read some pretty bad stuff, but that's nothing compared to this. There are reports coming out of Syrian troops shooting up not disidents or political renegades, but families in the street. For what? to ensure their corrupt government clings to power.

 

I have never seen such a obcene act of brutality anywhere in the developed world in my whole life, and I've spent years researching flashpoints. Crimes like this I've seen in Africa a few times, but only in tribalistic regions, where the only technology is in weaponry, and there are no such things as organised governments. But this is Syria, the west's little darling in the middle east. We waste our time and resources in Libya, for what? Gadaffi is a tyrant and an evil man, but an incompetant one. In Syreia, you've got a capable, high tech regime using modern nilitary hardware we gave them in exchange for oil to massacre women and children by the thousands. It goes beyond unacceptable, but what disgusts me the most is the act of denial from western leaders.

 

I've seen the photos, it's not so much a massacre but a war waged against this country's own people. It goes beyond any reasonable doubt that war crimes hagve been commited, but our so called leaders just stand by and watch because they're afraid they'll have to pay more to fuel their cars. This needs to stop, it needs to stop now, but I dont expect it ever will. Makes me sick. I've gone through phases of disgust with the western way of life, but I've never hated our leaders or our apathy this badly before.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Vindekarr

[marharth]

And that is how you control your population as a powerful dictator...

 

This give proof Gaddafi is not as bad as people think. Gaddafi is just killing rebels at this point, the same thing the USA would do if a group tried to overthrow the government for any reason.

 

What do you do to control your population as a dictator is to scare the s*** out of them and make them fear for their lives if they oppose you.

 

That may sound heartless but its the truth, I do not agree with leaders who do such things of course but I am certainly not shocked by it.

 

The USA does not need to get involved in wars anymore. Many people may disagree with me, but I do support peace keeping missions for FULLY FUNCTIONING governments.

 

The US is in no place to help other countries, we need to fix our own problems first.

Edited April 25, 2011 by marharth

[Aurielius]

And that is how you control your population as a powerful dictator...

This give proof Gaddafi is not as bad as people think. Gaddafi is just killing rebels at this point, the same thing the USA would do if a group tried to overthrow the government for any reason.

 

President Assad is more terrible than Gaddiffi ergo Gaddaffi is not so bad on the scale of abominations? The logic of that position is stunning in it's breadth of simplistic illogical assumptions. The equating that it is something that the US would do also is mindboggling in it's lack of understanding of the military that serve us.The duty to refuse an illegal order is well entrenched in the minds of any officer I have ever been acquainted with and I have full confidence that they would exercise their conscience.

 

What do you do to control your population as a dictator is to scare the s*** out of them and make them fear for their lives if they oppose you.

That may sound heartless but its the truth, I do not agree with leaders who do such things of course but I am certainly not shocked by it.

 

I have seen many horrific things yet retain the ability to still be appalled when I view another fresh example, though you seem to be able to remain sanguine having experienced none first hand. It seems that the only thing that shocks you is a requirement to be personally involved in something.

 

The USA does not need to get involved in wars anymore. Many people may disagree with me, but I do support peace keeping missions for FULLY FUNCTIONING governments.

The US is in no place to help other countries, we need to fix our own problems first.

 

The mild point of congruity of positions between us not because I agree with your philosophical position but because of the pragmatism of not involving us in a fourth conflict with three outstanding conflicts yet to be resolved. So we should interfere in the affairs of a 'functioning' government only? Ergo, we only sanction functioning dictatorships? By that logic we should be involved in North Korea since it is 'functioning'. Peace keeping is done in areas of civil breakdown. Last, the view that we should bury our heads in the sand and fix internal issues while ignoring world events has been tried before and ended on December 7, 1941.

[marharth]

And that is how you control your population as a powerful dictator...

This give proof Gaddafi is not as bad as people think. Gaddafi is just killing rebels at this point, the same thing the USA would do if a group tried to overthrow the government for any reason.

 

President Assad is more terrible than Gaddiffi ergo Gaddaffi is not so bad on the scale of abominations? The logic of that position is stunning in it's breadth of simplistic illogical assumptions. The equating that it is something that the US would do also is mindboggling in it's lack of understanding of the military that serve us.The duty to refuse an illegal order is well entrenched in the minds of any officer I have ever been acquainted with and I have full confidence that they would exercise their conscience.

 

What do you do to control your population as a dictator is to scare the s*** out of them and make them fear for their lives if they oppose you.

That may sound heartless but its the truth, I do not agree with leaders who do such things of course but I am certainly not shocked by it.

 

I have seen many horrific things yet retain the ability to still be appalled when I view another fresh example, though you seem to be able to remain sanguine having experienced none first hand. It seems that the only thing that shocks you is a requirement to be personally involved in something.

 

The USA does not need to get involved in wars anymore. Many people may disagree with me, but I do support peace keeping missions for FULLY FUNCTIONING governments.

The US is in no place to help other countries, we need to fix our own problems first.

 

The mild point of congruity of positions between us not because I agree with your philosophical position but because of the pragmatism of not involving us in a fourth conflict with three outstanding conflicts yet to be resolved. So we should interfere in the affairs of a 'functioning' government only? Ergo, we only sanction functioning dictatorships? By that logic we should be involved in North Korea since it is 'functioning'. Peace keeping is done in areas of civil breakdown. Last, the view that we should bury our heads in the sand and fix internal issues while ignoring world events has been tried before and ended on December 7, 1941.

I should of made myself more clear.

 

I meant "functioning" for the US, as in we should make our own country better before helping out other countries. Functioning was a bad choice of of a word.

 

So if the USA completely solved all of its large problems, I would most likely support large humanitarian missions in other countries. I don't see the USA solving its problems anytime soon however. This part is for another debate however.

 

"shocks you is a requirement to be personally involved in something."

Come on, that wasn't needed.

 

I am pissed off by what the leader is doing, and upset about it as well.

I am however, in no way surprised a dictator is killing his own civilians to keep power.

 

I was not trying to compare the USA with Gaddafi forces, nor was I trying to make Gaddafi look better. My point was that we are attacking Gaddafi when there are worse dictators, and we are pretty much only attacking Libya for humanitarian reasons.

 

My point with that was this shows that attacking Libya for humanitarian reasons is illogical when there are worse dictators in the area.

 

To make myself more clear let me lay out a list

 

1. I think the USA should help other countries for humanitarian reasons (and not just cherry pick countries), ONLY if we have solved internal problems. That currently is not how it is. If we are ever in the position to make other countries better for the people I would support doing so, as I said though we are in no position to do such things.

 

2. Gaddafi does not = USA, and in no way is Gaddafi good. It doesn't make sense to attack Libya for humanitarian reasons when things like this are going on.

 

3. In no way do I agree with the leaders of Syria, and I think what is going on is terrible. I am angered at it going on, and I am also saddened. I am not surprised or shocked by it though, since I understand that things like this will happen if citizens attempt to rebel against a dictator.

[ub3rman123]

Why'd they start shooting? Is there a rebellion already going on or did they just decide for a preemptive strike?

[greywaste]

Well, frankly it's the worst mess I've seen in my life:

 

Troops have been ordered onto the streets in Syria. In Saraa, thousands of army troops, snipers, helicopters and tanks are enforcing a twenty-four hour, seven days a week curfew. Anyone caught of of doors is, simply, shot where they stand. Schools have been atatcked, women and children amssacred in the streets, and troops have set about not only locking people in their houses on pain of death, but ensuring they are deprived of both water and food. Water supplies have been shut off, aircraft and snipers have set about a campaign to destroy all found rooftop water supplies, and the deathtoll is like to nothing I have ever seen in my life. I've done a lot of research on the subject of modern regimes, and conflicts. I've read some pretty bad stuff, but that's nothing compared to this. There are reports coming out of Syrian troops shooting up not disidents or political renegades, but families in the street. For what? to ensure their corrupt government clings to power.

 

I have never seen such a obcene act of brutality anywhere in the developed world in my whole life, and I've spent years researching flashpoints. Crimes like this I've seen in Africa a few times, but only in tribalistic regions, where the only technology is in weaponry, and there are no such things as organised governments. But this is Syria, the west's little darling in the middle east. We waste our time and resources in Libya, for what? Gadaffi is a tyrant and an evil man, but an incompetant one. In Syreia, you've got a capable, high tech regime using modern nilitary hardware we gave them in exchange for oil to massacre women and children by the thousands. It goes beyond unacceptable, but what disgusts me the most is the act of denial from western leaders.

 

I've seen the photos, it's not so much a massacre but a war waged against this country's own people. It goes beyond any reasonable doubt that war crimes hagve been commited, but our so called leaders just stand by and watch because they're afraid they'll have to pay more to fuel their cars. This needs to stop, it needs to stop now, but I dont expect it ever will. Makes me sick. I've gone through phases of disgust with the western way of life, but I've never hated our leaders or our apathy this badly before.

You must have missed the Balkans, Rwanda, Saddams' warfare against the Kurds and the aftermath of the last Iranian election then to name a few atrocities if this is a shock, It's terrible but lets face it, it was inevitable.

Who exactly traded them weapons for oil? Because as far as I'm aware pretty much all of their arsenal is Russian/Chinese (If that's who then fair enough)

 

And while I do agree that it's horrible, don't forget, what you call apathy, others will call pragmatism, and others yet will call virtue.

 

EDIT :

 

@Marharth : The rebels explicitly asked for NATO help, this is what I would percieve as the green card for Libya intervention.

Edited April 25, 2011 by greywaste

[marharth]

Well, frankly it's the worst mess I've seen in my life:

 

Troops have been ordered onto the streets in Syria. In Saraa, thousands of army troops, snipers, helicopters and tanks are enforcing a twenty-four hour, seven days a week curfew. Anyone caught of of doors is, simply, shot where they stand. Schools have been atatcked, women and children amssacred in the streets, and troops have set about not only locking people in their houses on pain of death, but ensuring they are deprived of both water and food. Water supplies have been shut off, aircraft and snipers have set about a campaign to destroy all found rooftop water supplies, and the deathtoll is like to nothing I have ever seen in my life. I've done a lot of research on the subject of modern regimes, and conflicts. I've read some pretty bad stuff, but that's nothing compared to this. There are reports coming out of Syrian troops shooting up not disidents or political renegades, but families in the street. For what? to ensure their corrupt government clings to power.

 

I have never seen such a obcene act of brutality anywhere in the developed world in my whole life, and I've spent years researching flashpoints. Crimes like this I've seen in Africa a few times, but only in tribalistic regions, where the only technology is in weaponry, and there are no such things as organised governments. But this is Syria, the west's little darling in the middle east. We waste our time and resources in Libya, for what? Gadaffi is a tyrant and an evil man, but an incompetant one. In Syreia, you've got a capable, high tech regime using modern nilitary hardware we gave them in exchange for oil to massacre women and children by the thousands. It goes beyond unacceptable, but what disgusts me the most is the act of denial from western leaders.

 

I've seen the photos, it's not so much a massacre but a war waged against this country's own people. It goes beyond any reasonable doubt that war crimes hagve been commited, but our so called leaders just stand by and watch because they're afraid they'll have to pay more to fuel their cars. This needs to stop, it needs to stop now, but I dont expect it ever will. Makes me sick. I've gone through phases of disgust with the western way of life, but I've never hated our leaders or our apathy this badly before.

You must have missed the Balkans, Rwanda, Saddams' warfare against the Kurds and the aftermath of the last Iranian election then to name a few atrocities if this is a shock, It's terrible but lets face it, it was inevitable.

Who exactly traded them weapons for oil? Because as far as I'm aware pretty much all of their arsenal is Russian/Chinese (If that's who then fair enough)

 

And while I do agree that it's horrible, don't forget, what you call apathy, others will call pragmatism, and others yet will call virtue.

 

EDIT :

 

@Marharth : The rebels explicitly asked for NATO help, this is what I would percieve as the green card for Libya intervention.

I am sure if people in Syria ask for NATO help we will rush right over there then.

 

@uberman They shot them because they questioned their power, nothing more.

Edited April 25, 2011 by marharth

[JimboUK]

NATO couldn't help if they wanted to, they're overstreched as it is.

[Vindekarr]

Uber: no provocation, it's just dissent at this point, there have been a number of organised marches recently protesting Assad's rule. Assad himself is a gutless man-he quickly capitulated in appearance only, claiming to have renouned the "emergency laws" that have been in place for more than sixty years. Those laws are still in place. To this point the protests have been peaceful-there's been no looting or rioting, just people marching down the street chanting and waving placcards, however just a few days prior to this, army personel bunched up a march, which had not given any provocation, ands then without warning opened fire into the crowd with machineguns, kill 80 and wounding hundreds more.

 

An army unit also attacked the funeral for those it killed in the protest, slaughtering a further hundred. In Saraa however things have taken a step beyond simply shooting innocent civilians who protest, government troops have simply shot anyone they've met on the streets Including storming schools and shooting the students. This cannot be explained simply as "rebel control" it's the systematic butchery of an entire population. A curfew is currently in place twenty four hours a day. Anyone caught outside is executed without warnings. Furthermore not only can people not leave their houses, they are not being supplied with fresh water, or food, as all services have been cut. This doesnt seem to be enough for Assad however, as troops have begun systematicaly storming houses and slaughtering the inhabitants.

 

There is no way to explain this sort of butchery, no excuse, no possible way we can let this bastard live, yet all our leaders will do is "discuss possible sanctions"

[WizardOfAtlantis]

1. I think the USA should help other countries for humanitarian reasons (and not just cherry pick countries), ONLY if we have solved internal problems.

That's never going to happen. The nature of the beast is that it will always have some tentacles showing, some Hydra's heads floating around. There are too many unenlightened people for it to be otherwise.

 

Realistically, when a job needs to get done, you just go and do it. Doesn't matter if you've sprained your knee, walked 30km overnight, and haven't eaten since Tuesday. You get the job done.

 

Syria had/has the greatest pretense to a Western appearance, therefore it has more to lose on its ego level as this recent Muslim energy-wave stretches to it. It will be bloody because of that ego, and also because "somebody" will have to "put these Muslims in their place," if you know what I mean. This fire has burned for some months now, country to country. For similar/different reasons, so too will it be dastardly in Saudi Arabia, if it reaches there...and the crackdown will be much, much worse, and we'll probably hear less of it. Hell, it's probably going on already, on a secret services level already. They're the blood-thirstiest of them all, and woe be to the Saudi who dares shake that palm to get at some of its dates.