On OBL, USA and Murder

[Kendo 2]

@ grannywils and Linspuppy

 

I picked up on the human rights angle in Sync182's post.

 

And I agree that if a thread is 'pointless' it is pointless to post anything more than 'This is pointless'. Get my point? :tongue:

[CommanderAwesome]

A single person is a human being, a group of people a mob, a nation of mobs a tyrant, a mob of tyrants a government.

 

 

 

p.s. keep in mind the definition of nation is "group of people who share culture, ethnicity, language and/or territory", so there can be multiple nations in one country such as the "cherokee nation" or a democrat nation, republican nation, etc.

[Sync182]

My point was made largely on the back of this comment in the OP:

 

Hello all

 

You all know it by know, OBL is "Dead" and presumably killed un-armed.

 

Know may people rage on him being a demon, a monster ect for what he has done.

 

Ok, so what DID he do? Let's keep it at plain mass murder. Kill innocent people.

 

Now, what rights do USA has to talk about Justice and killing a demon while themselves go in other countries and MURDER INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Is it me or its some kind of dry humor? They go and kill and un-manned armed (Which i am used to by now, USA seems to love that) and claim he was a Murderer while themselves killed numerous civilian in other countries.

 

The point about the USA talking justice while going in and murdering civilians. That's what gets my back up in these scenarios. Let's just ignore the fact that Al Quaeda, led by OBL, killed 3,000 civilians when the World Trade Center was levelled, shall we? Let's just ignore the fact that terrorists in London killed dozens of civilians when they blew up public transport options, shall we?

 

If you're going to go on about the deaths of civilians, let's look at it evenly and point out that the terrorists kill more of them than (or at least the same number as) Western forces do - and while you're at it, admit that terrorists deliberately target civilians, where Western soldiers might normally kill civilians as collateral damage.

 

My other point about the general purpose of this thread was based on this observation:

 

Honestly I'm beginning to see very clearly why some folks want the Debates section shut down. This is... what, the fourth or fifth blatant lets-bash-America thread in the past few months? The last one hasn't even left the front page yet- and it's always the same stuff- America murders civilians! America wants to conquer the world! America eats babies and kicks puppies!

 

I'm not American - I'm proudly Australian. But come on, can't we find better things to debate than the Evils of the West? Honestly, the media-at-large does a good enough job of holding Western Society to trial without us doing the same thing here.

[Lisnpuppy]

My point was made largely on the back of this comment in the OP:

 

Hello all

 

You all know it by know, OBL is "Dead" and presumably killed un-armed.

 

Know may people rage on him being a demon, a monster ect for what he has done.

 

Ok, so what DID he do? Let's keep it at plain mass murder. Kill innocent people.

 

Now, what rights do USA has to talk about Justice and killing a demon while themselves go in other countries and MURDER INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Is it me or its some kind of dry humor? They go and kill and un-manned armed (Which i am used to by now, USA seems to love that) and claim he was a Murderer while themselves killed numerous civilian in other countries.

 

The point about the USA talking justice while going in and murdering civilians. That's what gets my back up in these scenarios. Let's just ignore the fact that Al Quaeda, led by OBL, killed 3,000 civilians when the World Trade Center was levelled, shall we? Let's just ignore the fact that terrorists in London killed dozens of civilians when they blew up public transport options, shall we?

 

If you're going to go on about the deaths of civilians, let's look at it evenly and point out that the terrorists kill more of them than (or at least the same number as) Western forces do - and while you're at it, admit that terrorists deliberately target civilians, where Western soldiers might normally kill civilians as collateral damage.

 

My other point about the general purpose of this thread was based on this observation:

 

Honestly I'm beginning to see very clearly why some folks want the Debates section shut down. This is... what, the fourth or fifth blatant lets-bash-America thread in the past few months? The last one hasn't even left the front page yet- and it's always the same stuff- America murders civilians! America wants to conquer the world! America eats babies and kicks puppies!

 

I'm not American - I'm proudly Australian. But come on, can't we find better things to debate than the Evils of the West? Honestly, the media-at-large does a good enough job of holding Western Society to trial without us doing the same thing here.

 

I can understand that "point" (*grin*) however when we stop having open dialogue about such an issue that will have such a huge impact on western society and politics (and the US of course more so) then that is where we get into trouble and the things the OP brings up happen in fact, not just in theory.

[Sync182]

...and that is why Western Society is always going to be on the back foot against terrorists.

 

Our Right to Free Speech is a great thing...it is also our Achilles Heel.

 

Remember the quote by Sylvester Stallone's character in the movie Cobra:

 

"As long as we have to play by these bulls**t rules and they don't - we're going to lose."

Edited May 6, 2011 by Sync182

[DarkeWolf]

Hello all

 

You all know it by know, OBL is "Dead" and presumably killed un-armed.

 

Know may people rage on him being a demon, a monster ect for what he has done.

 

Ok, so what DID he do? Let's keep it at plain mass murder. Kill innocent people.

 

Now, what rights do USA has to talk about Justice and killing a demon while themselves go in other countries and MURDER INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Is it me or its some kind of dry humor? They go and kill and un-manned armed (Which i am used to by now, USA seems to love that) and claim he was a Murderer while themselves killed numerous civilian in other countries.

 

Now here 2 comments i found:

Junadelacruz: So many civilians were killed in Afghanistan by the USA that Human Rights Watch and others were blocked when trying to collect casualty figures. The USA acts like the psychopaths glamorised in their B-films and then wants the world to admire them. When we despise them they say we're jealous! l wouldn't want their human rights abuses on my conscience.

 

 

Poppymarenge: How do we know he was a demon? He never stood trial. All I know is that the Americans went in and shot a man, in cold blood. They said this man was guilty but I've never seen any proof either way.

 

 

 

 

Please i want intelligent replies, un-biased, un-patriotic. If you come here to tell me TROLOLOL HOW DARE YOU DOUBT THE WORD OF THE GVRMENT then take your trolling away.

 

Ok, first off, Please do not label an entire people, by their government. This was an act of our government, not by it's people. Did we all vote, and say, YES, lets go kill this man? NO, we did not. It was an executive decision, given by the governing body of our nation, and was performed by those in service to the gov't.

The USA didn't do this, or a lot of the other things that you're talking about. Our military did.

 

Second.... Osama Bin Laden is NOT a civilian.

He is the founder and leader of a paramilitary group. He is a former military man himself, with a high degree of military training. The paramilitary group to which he belongs, has been declared WAR upon, not just by the US, but also by the UN.

So stating him as a civie is completely in error. He's not. He's a soldier. He's a soldier that has the training to be a very deadly individual in personal combat. He's a soldier that was reaching for a weapon against US soldiers. He made himself a combatant when he reached for a weapon.

 

"Well, he was in defense of his home". True perhaps. But attempting to fire a weapon at police that are inside your home, can justifiably result in the use of deadly force, by those police officers. Regardless of what country you're in.

Have you ever been shot at? Have you ever had somebody raise a gun to you? Can you honestly say that in a very hot, combat situation, that you'd have not fired at somebody that was showing intent to do you harm?

 

Now, what about the child that was allowed to leave the room unharmed? What about the fact that his wife was only shot in the leg? Acting in the defense of a top 10 list terrorist? I'd say that shows quite a bit of control, and mercy on the side of the men who went in and did their job, because they were Ordered to, by the military that they serve.

 

Our troops did this right. They did this a lot better than some of the other countries would have. AND they sure did this a LOT better than the terrorists would have. They'd have just blown the building up, with a suicide bomber. And not care at all about the civilians present, and the non-coms. Our servicemen didnt do that. They were under fire, and still taking measures to ensure that they didnt fire on those that were not a part of the action.

 

Honestly. I respect everybody's right to have an opinion, and the way that they feel about things. And I know that there's going to be a lot of controversy over this.

But considering the amount of damage that this individual has caused. The number of lives that he's taken, and the number of family and friends that are STILL feeling the loss... I very strongly believe that those people deserve some respect too.

As well as a sense of closure to the criminal that murdered those that they care about.

How does calling those victims, and the country the live in, murderers.... do them any justice at all?

[Lisnpuppy]

/clap

 

Let me say that reviewing how we handle a situation and calling to the integrity of the decision and people is different.

[grannywils]

Sync 182: appreciated your post #23. I sort of thought that might have been the post to which you were responding. My problem with your response was the fact that I do not believe that HellsMaster is a "bleeding heart liberal" as you stated. I could be wrong. Don't know him at all. He's only 17 and I made a somewhat harsh response to him yesterday, and maybe should have given him a very tiny bit of slack simply due to his age. But unfortunately I believe that rather than being a "liberal" he is simply another America hater and doesn't care for anything we do. This was his chance to bash us. I guess I just felt that you were attacking the wrong enemy in this particular case. I do not disagree with everything that you have to say, but would have appreciated it if you had taken a more thoughtful approach in addressing your response to the individual to whom you were speaking.

 

DarkeWolf: Great post, nicely put and right on.

 

Kendo: Of course we get your point. Bye.:rolleyes:

[Sync182]

Sync 182: appreciated your post #23. I sort of thought that might have been the post to which you were responding. My problem with your response was the fact that I do not believe that HellsMaster is a "bleeding heart liberal" as you stated. I could be wrong. Don't know him at all. He's only 17 and I made a somewhat harsh response to him yesterday, and maybe should have given him a very tiny bit of slack simply due to his age. But unfortunately I believe that rather than being a "liberal" he is simply another America hater and doesn't care for anything we do. This was his chance to bash us. I guess I just felt that you were attacking the wrong enemy in this particular case. I do not disagree with everything that you have to say, but would have appreciated it if you had taken a more thoughtful approach in addressing your response to the individual to whom you were speaking.

 

I'd like to clarify that I was not attacking HellsMaster directly, and if he thinks I was then I apologise to him for that.

 

However, the point he made is consistent with many who would be called Bleeding Hearts: they scream blue murder when Western soldiers accidentally kill a couple of civilians, but are disturbingly quiet when terrorists deliberately kill dozens of civilians.

 

If you're going to scream about the unjustness of civilian deaths, do it when it happens on BOTH sides, not just one - or else hold your tongue.

 

The attitude of screaming only when Westerners do it plays into the hands of the terrorists.

 

On another, slightly-related, point: if HellsMaster is bashing Americans over this, then he should be getting up and wondering why the leadership of his own country isn't taking such decisive action against terrorists. Yes?

Edited May 7, 2011 by Sync182

[Aurielius]

On another, slightly-related, point: if HellsMaster is bashing Americans over this, then he should be getting up and wondering why the leadership of his own country isn't taking such decisive action against terrorists. Yes?

I am more than slightly curious why the OP has not responded to a single post within his own thread? So far all I have seen is a thread version of Dien Bien Phu. Sème le vent récolte la tempête.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Aurielius