Fallout 4 Beta Update and DLC, Creation Kit News

[codepony]

Any alternate link to the video? The link given is bad :(

[RaffTheSweetling]

In response to post #34909225. #34911540, #34912605 are all replies on the same post.

kebrus wrote: I already bought the season pass but I'm now considering a refund.

I hate getting screwed over. They basically delayed the CK to sell more DLCs, thats the gist of it. This is despicable, it shows greed over customer satisfaction. I'm not saying they should not do DLC, but the original promise for the game was the game plus the modding tools, why am I receiving DLCs before the main promise? because the DLC is ready but the tools are not? we are not talking about 3d and 2d assets that could have been done a long time ago, we are talking about whole systems, we are also not talking about a tool that didn't existed before, whatever updates they had for CK should have been a priority over the addons.

They knew that promising the CK for fallout would sell more copies but they also knew that releasing it at the same time as the game or too soon after would make the DLC less attractive so they go for the middle ground, they promise one thing and change it later with lame excuses, 50$ for the season pass? can they really deliver 50$ worth of content? are you telling me all DLCs combined with be worth almost the totality of the main game? all of us know this is not the truth, I wouldn't be surprised if they went 2KGames on this and released a "second" season...

/rant

PS: Didn't they say Q1? or just early 2016?

Jinxxed0 wrote: I doubt they delayed the CK for more DLC sales. DLCs are going to sell regardless because they all eventually become requirements for many mods. Especially since these DLCs will add new systems and assets, many mods will make use of them once the CK comes out.

No need to be dramatic about it. Delays and unforseen things happen all the times. They're doing something they've never done before which is getting mods onto multiple platforms without breaking down. If you've ever bothered to play around the creation kits for these games, you'll know that they're beyond buggy and barely held together with tape and chewing gum and constantly spewing our errors and always on the verge of crashing. So the more time they spend on this one, the better.

kebrus wrote: Why do you doubt it? Have you seen what as been accomplish without CK? Have they released the CK at the same time as the game and a single modder could have done the Automatron DLC by now if not more.

Also I'm not talking out of my ass, I'm a game-developer and I'm familiar with the tools from my time with Skyrim. Meteorites do happen and cannot be accounted for, while having mods on multiple platforms is new, nothing else is, in fact, even if that was the issue wouldn't it make more sense to have the tool out there so they would give modders the time to actually create stuff and see whats needed before getting it to work on the consoles? Do you really believe they'll release the CK and console mod support at the same time?

of course not...

I'm not being dramatic, the consumer should dictate with their money, Bethesda is quietly screwing over with their consumers and they (we) let them. Increasing the price for a season pass is also a first, can you take a guess why they did it? I ask again, do you really believe all DLC combined (these and future ones) are actually worth the base game in terms of scope and quality?

The only unforseen event here is how quickly the modders got to create such good tools, gotta have something to remedy that, oh wait, price increase.

They are such a bunch of good guys for giving us till the end of the month to pay less.
/sarcarm

I had that exact same thought regarding the delay in getting the CK to us, and what it represents.

I don't think you should mix the issues though - You bought your season pass for DL-content, not for the CK, because the CK was going to be free, and the dl-content was not.
You are getting what you paid for first (and at a better price), and getting the free tool slightly later. It shouldn't matter that the free content comes out later, if your reason for buying the Season Pass was to get the dl-content, right?

I feel the same as you regarding the CK however. I feel at this point that the quality standard of our mods is surpassing the official content quality and this may be something the developers want to prevent/obfuscate, perhaps to be able to sell products that are clones of mods from F03/NV/Skyrim, and perhaps to avoid looking lazy. I don't know.

[revenile]

Fallout 3's GECK released after the game, as did Skyrim's Creation Kit. Delayed modding tools are nothing new to Fallout 4, so why is it a big deal now? I don't feel like it's an entirely greedy move on Bethesda for bringing it out in April. I DO think it is part of the reason, wanting the automatron DLC out before the GECK, but again as someone else noted, they have to make the mods created with the GECK able to be run on consoles as well, remember, consoles won't be able to support the FO4SE for example. The GECK is coming, and so what if a piece of DLC comes out first? Just means the first mods made with the GECK will have more of a base to work from, so less mods to be required. If it WAS a freaking cash grab, don't you think that instead of releasing before the Wasteland Workshop DLC, they'd wait until AFTER? Automatron at least sounds neat from the quest angle, but WW is literally just more building stuff, which mods already can do, albeit not perfect. So yeah, if it was a real cash grab, I'd think they'd wait until after WW was released to put the GECK out since THAT would be the one that would be the most "well we wanted to sell the dlc more since modders can do this."

 

TL; DR DLC probably had a part, repeat PART in the GECK not being out yet, but then again delayed modding tools have been a thing for Bethesda since Fallout 3.

Edited February 24, 2016 by revenile

[vlasov581]

By releasing the CK RIGHT AFTER Fallout 4's release, would've GREATLY aided repairs and fixes to the game. Any DLC would be fixed on the spot right after its release, and currently installed mods would be easily modified and altered in order to accommodate the requirements of the DLCs. Stupid move, Bethesda

[kebrus]

In response to post #34909225. #34911540, #34912605, #34914740 are all replies on the same post.

kebrus wrote: I already bought the season pass but I'm now considering a refund.

I hate getting screwed over. They basically delayed the CK to sell more DLCs, thats the gist of it. This is despicable, it shows greed over customer satisfaction. I'm not saying they should not do DLC, but the original promise for the game was the game plus the modding tools, why am I receiving DLCs before the main promise? because the DLC is ready but the tools are not? we are not talking about 3d and 2d assets that could have been done a long time ago, we are talking about whole systems, we are also not talking about a tool that didn't existed before, whatever updates they had for CK should have been a priority over the addons.

They knew that promising the CK for fallout would sell more copies but they also knew that releasing it at the same time as the game or too soon after would make the DLC less attractive so they go for the middle ground, they promise one thing and change it later with lame excuses, 50$ for the season pass? can they really deliver 50$ worth of content? are you telling me all DLCs combined with be worth almost the totality of the main game? all of us know this is not the truth, I wouldn't be surprised if they went 2KGames on this and released a "second" season...

/rant

PS: Didn't they say Q1? or just early 2016?

Jinxxed0 wrote: I doubt they delayed the CK for more DLC sales. DLCs are going to sell regardless because they all eventually become requirements for many mods. Especially since these DLCs will add new systems and assets, many mods will make use of them once the CK comes out.

No need to be dramatic about it. Delays and unforseen things happen all the times. They're doing something they've never done before which is getting mods onto multiple platforms without breaking down. If you've ever bothered to play around the creation kits for these games, you'll know that they're beyond buggy and barely held together with tape and chewing gum and constantly spewing our errors and always on the verge of crashing. So the more time they spend on this one, the better.

kebrus wrote: Why do you doubt it? Have you seen what as been accomplish without CK? Have they released the CK at the same time as the game and a single modder could have done the Automatron DLC by now if not more.

Also I'm not talking out of my ass, I'm a game-developer and I'm familiar with the tools from my time with Skyrim. Meteorites do happen and cannot be accounted for, while having mods on multiple platforms is new, nothing else is, in fact, even if that was the issue wouldn't it make more sense to have the tool out there so they would give modders the time to actually create stuff and see whats needed before getting it to work on the consoles? Do you really believe they'll release the CK and console mod support at the same time?

of course not...

I'm not being dramatic, the consumer should dictate with their money, Bethesda is quietly screwing over with their consumers and they (we) let them. Increasing the price for a season pass is also a first, can you take a guess why they did it? I ask again, do you really believe all DLC combined (these and future ones) are actually worth the base game in terms of scope and quality?

The only unforseen event here is how quickly the modders got to create such good tools, gotta have something to remedy that, oh wait, price increase.

They are such a bunch of good guys for giving us till the end of the month to pay less.
/sarcarm

RaffTheSweetling wrote: I had that exact same thought regarding the delay in getting the CK to us, and what it represents.

I don't think you should mix the issues though - You bought your season pass for DL-content, not for the CK, because the CK was going to be free, and the dl-content was not.
You are getting what you paid for first (and at a better price), and getting the free tool slightly later. It shouldn't matter that the free content comes out later, if your reason for buying the Season Pass was to get the dl-content, right?

I feel the same as you regarding the CK however. I feel at this point that the quality standard of our mods is surpassing the official content quality and this may be something the developers want to prevent/obfuscate, perhaps to be able to sell products that are clones of mods from F03/NV/Skyrim, and perhaps to avoid looking lazy. I don't know.

@RaffTheSweetling

You are certainly right. I got the season pass for the DLC and not for the CK but not getting it is the only way I have to speak with my wallet, I would get the refund for the game if I could and wait it out some time, I only got Skyrim almost a year after release so I don't mind waiting.

It's the principle and the potential repercussions I'm against of. I shouldn't feel special because they decided to up the price without any kinds of hints about it, and this is certainly not a discount either, again, I challenge everyone to actually believe they will be giving us DLC almost the size of the full game because that's what it represents. Prices go down with time for games, not higher, the reason season pass even exist is to serve as monetary incentive to create more content. Before season passes all DLC was being sold as standalone pieces (at best packs of them). They actually managed to create demand for the season pass with this stunt, sharing top places with popular games, just think about it for a second, them asking for MORE money for content people barely know anything about that doesn't even exist yet actually competes with top selling available games.

If other companies catch this trend we are in for more bullshit in this industry.

[Deleted3487703User]

In response to post #34909225. #34911540, #34912605, #34914740, #34916115 are all replies on the same post.

kebrus wrote: I already bought the season pass but I'm now considering a refund.

I hate getting screwed over. They basically delayed the CK to sell more DLCs, thats the gist of it. This is despicable, it shows greed over customer satisfaction. I'm not saying they should not do DLC, but the original promise for the game was the game plus the modding tools, why am I receiving DLCs before the main promise? because the DLC is ready but the tools are not? we are not talking about 3d and 2d assets that could have been done a long time ago, we are talking about whole systems, we are also not talking about a tool that didn't existed before, whatever updates they had for CK should have been a priority over the addons.

They knew that promising the CK for fallout would sell more copies but they also knew that releasing it at the same time as the game or too soon after would make the DLC less attractive so they go for the middle ground, they promise one thing and change it later with lame excuses, 50$ for the season pass? can they really deliver 50$ worth of content? are you telling me all DLCs combined with be worth almost the totality of the main game? all of us know this is not the truth, I wouldn't be surprised if they went 2KGames on this and released a "second" season...

/rant

PS: Didn't they say Q1? or just early 2016?

Jinxxed0 wrote: I doubt they delayed the CK for more DLC sales. DLCs are going to sell regardless because they all eventually become requirements for many mods. Especially since these DLCs will add new systems and assets, many mods will make use of them once the CK comes out.

No need to be dramatic about it. Delays and unforseen things happen all the times. They're doing something they've never done before which is getting mods onto multiple platforms without breaking down. If you've ever bothered to play around the creation kits for these games, you'll know that they're beyond buggy and barely held together with tape and chewing gum and constantly spewing our errors and always on the verge of crashing. So the more time they spend on this one, the better.

kebrus wrote: Why do you doubt it? Have you seen what as been accomplish without CK? Have they released the CK at the same time as the game and a single modder could have done the Automatron DLC by now if not more.

Also I'm not talking out of my ass, I'm a game-developer and I'm familiar with the tools from my time with Skyrim. Meteorites do happen and cannot be accounted for, while having mods on multiple platforms is new, nothing else is, in fact, even if that was the issue wouldn't it make more sense to have the tool out there so they would give modders the time to actually create stuff and see whats needed before getting it to work on the consoles? Do you really believe they'll release the CK and console mod support at the same time?

of course not...

I'm not being dramatic, the consumer should dictate with their money, Bethesda is quietly screwing over with their consumers and they (we) let them. Increasing the price for a season pass is also a first, can you take a guess why they did it? I ask again, do you really believe all DLC combined (these and future ones) are actually worth the base game in terms of scope and quality?

The only unforseen event here is how quickly the modders got to create such good tools, gotta have something to remedy that, oh wait, price increase.

They are such a bunch of good guys for giving us till the end of the month to pay less.
/sarcarm

RaffTheSweetling wrote: I had that exact same thought regarding the delay in getting the CK to us, and what it represents.

I don't think you should mix the issues though - You bought your season pass for DL-content, not for the CK, because the CK was going to be free, and the dl-content was not.
You are getting what you paid for first (and at a better price), and getting the free tool slightly later. It shouldn't matter that the free content comes out later, if your reason for buying the Season Pass was to get the dl-content, right?

I feel the same as you regarding the CK however. I feel at this point that the quality standard of our mods is surpassing the official content quality and this may be something the developers want to prevent/obfuscate, perhaps to be able to sell products that are clones of mods from F03/NV/Skyrim, and perhaps to avoid looking lazy. I don't know.

kebrus wrote: @RaffTheSweetling

You are certainly right. I got the season pass for the DLC and not for the CK but not getting it is the only way I have to speak with my wallet, I would get the refund for the game if I could and wait it out some time, I only got Skyrim almost a year after release so I don't mind waiting.

It's the principle and the potential repercussions I'm against of. I shouldn't feel special because they decided to up the price without any kinds of hints about it, and this is certainly not a discount either, again, I challenge everyone to actually believe they will be giving us DLC almost the size of the full game because that's what it represents. Prices go down with time for games, not higher, the reason season pass even exist is to serve as monetary incentive to create more content. Before season passes all DLC was being sold as standalone pieces (at best packs of them). They actually managed to create demand for the season pass with this stunt, sharing top places with popular games, just think about it for a second, them asking for MORE money for content people barely know anything about that doesn't even exist yet actually competes with top selling available games.

If other companies catch this trend we are in for more bullshit in this industry.

The CK really doesn't relate to DLC sales in any way. I'm quite confident this CK is slower in coming than it was for Skyrim due to issues related to scope, complexity, and polish.

[Deleted3487703User]

In response to post #34915980.

Vlasov_581 wrote: By releasing the CK RIGHT AFTER Fallout 4's release, would've GREATLY aided repairs and fixes to the game. Any DLC would be fixed on the spot right after its release, and currently installed mods would be easily modified and altered in order to accommodate the requirements of the DLCs. Stupid move, Bethesda

Bethesda has a relatively small in-house team, and things like the CK can only be done with in-house personnel. To release it closer to game launch would've required pulling resources away from finishing the actual game. So the question isn't really CK vs. DLC, but CK vs. release in the first place. Better to have the playable game (in suprisingly polished form, considering how complex it is) sooner and the CK later.

I think it's relatively easy to compare Skyrim to FO4's CK release schedules and think they're equivalent, but FO4 is a vastly more complex game. Settlements and the systems related to it are like an entire second game layered on top of the core one, and Skyrim had nothing like that in it. It's not surprising at all that it should take a while to polish and "idiot-proof" (relatively speaking) a public creation kit for something that involved.

And, of course, bear in mind we're lucky to be getting a CK *at all*. Not many games offer that kind of resource to the public.

[Deleted3507349User]

I'm still disturbed by the fact that even though 'support for add-ons' has been introduced mods are still disabled by the launcher. I'm going to withhold judgement until I see exactly how the system they're cooking up works, but frankly it's not looking good to me. I'm beginning to suspect that the best-case scenario is that only mods made with the official CK will be allowed by the launcher.

 

I really hope that this doesn't turn out to be the most feature-restricted CK to date.

 

 

EDIT: Of course the CK would be the preferred method in any case, but to clarify; what about merged mods? What about mods that will require F4SE? Will the CK only be able to create mods that are console-friendly? Lots and lots of questions...we're sailing into uncharted waters, me buckos.

Edited February 24, 2016 by digitaltrucker

[Deleted3487703User]

In response to post #34915140.

revenile wrote: Fallout 3's GECK released after the game, as did Skyrim's Creation Kit. Delayed modding tools are nothing new to Fallout 4, so why is it a big deal now? I don't feel like it's an entirely greedy move on Bethesda for bringing it out in April. I DO think it is part of the reason, wanting the automatron DLC out before the GECK, but again as someone else noted, they have to make the mods created with the GECK able to be run on consoles as well, remember, consoles won't be able to support the FO4SE for example. The GECK is coming, and so what if a piece of DLC comes out first? Just means the first mods made with the GECK will have more of a base to work from, so less mods to be required. If it WAS a freaking cash grab, don't you think that instead of releasing before the Wasteland Workshop DLC, they'd wait until AFTER? Automatron at least sounds neat from the quest angle, but WW is literally just more building stuff, which mods already can do, albeit not perfect. So yeah, if it was a real cash grab, I'd think they'd wait until after WW was released to put the GECK out since THAT would be the one that would be the most "well we wanted to sell the dlc more since modders can do this."

TL; DR DLC probably had a part, repeat PART in the GECK not being out yet, but then again delayed modding tools have been a thing for Bethesda since Fallout 3.

The "they're greedy" conspiracies rely on the assumption that it was possible for Bethesda to have the CK ready for release at the time of game launch, which just isn't a sound assumption. All companies have limited manpower resources, and it's nothing short of crazy to think it was anything other than all-hands-on-deck just to get the game out the door on time. It's not as if CK has been sitting around at Bethesda since before then. Once the *game* was done, they could start to think about polishing in-house tools to the level required for a public CK.

Frankly, that they have DLC releasing at the pace it's supposed to over the next few months, *and* the CK, plus the regular bug-fix and content patches, I'm fairly impressed at their productivity.

[nukpwr]

I've coaxed a great deal from the edit tool with varying results, so I'd agree with most of you that it's been a long wait, but argue against any view that Bethesda is purposely holding the ck for some marketing reason; it's simply a bigger challenge. I would also argue DLC is likely a story line group and not a game mechanics group. Furthermore, there are far more features in fallout 4 over Skyrim:

Active barriers,

High speed protocol and

External calls to name a few.

Just having a good scripting tool and a mod conditioning tool would make a world of difference using the new features reliably and efficiently.

Also keep in mind that these three alone can lead to game stability issues and some QA supervisory code would be helpful eliminating stability issues.

 

If any of you hacked DA inquisition, you know how valuable active barriers can be, say for armor detail and realistic appearance, but also how dynamic active barriers can screw up the game play and crash badly. This means that the FO4 CK has to be much smarter than in Skyrim!