UK in/out EU?

[sunshinenbrick]

So what's it gonna be? And what makes you think it's the 'best' option (or lesser of two evils?)

 

All views from UK to EU and beyond are welcome to get as full a picture as possible which can perhaps help people like myself make their decision.

 

I would say I am currently about 60/40 for staying IN the EU mainly because, I have family and friends throughout the continent, I am concerned about economic uncertainty (I have a small business), and the thought of us being utterly alone with some uber-right (and left) crazies running the show gives me jitters.

 

I am however not averse to the challenges and potential problems though, and so still consider myself a swing voter depending on what 'facts' I can get find and also through some mature and insightful discussion with people - hence I am here!

[Harbringe]

Out and the sooner the better. The very idea that the will/concerns of UK citizens can be over ridden by a beauracracy in Brussels is ludicrist . In fact thats true of any Nation. Belgium just had a referendum on Ukraine entering some trade association with the EU and it was rejected . Yet the EU now seems to be saying that it doesn't matter what they think.And that is the real problem.

 

Europe is under great strain these days , some Nations are under very bad economic circumstance , mass immigration is causing all kinds of social discohesion , giving rise to far right groups that are actually gaining political power in some countries . No one seems to know how this is all going to break , but being tied into the EU limits your ability to respond.

 

Even the recent deportation deal the EU struck with Turkey . Basically Turkey threatens to open the doors on Syrian refugees coming to the EU (blackmail) , the EU then agrees to pay the blackmailer billions of Euros and throws in visa free travel options for Turkish nationals coming into the EU. And you would have to be an idiot not to realize Erdogon has been supporting terrorists in Syria and the EU wants to give someone like that the keys to the EU kingdom (visa free travel). This is insanity.

 

As for other concerns (business/travel/etc) the UK has got along fine for 1000 years by dealing with issues like that on a bi lateral level , where they make deals in their own interests , loosing that ability to a beauracracy in Brussels is the deal breaker , it leaves the UK bereft of the flexibility needed by any Nation to meet the challenges of the future.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Harbringe

[JimboUK]

Out.

 

I want a return to democracy where the people elect a government that is responsible to them, not a bunch of managers who answer to Brussels.

I want our laws made here by our elected representatives.
I want us to be able to make trade deals that suit us, not Germany.
I want British business freed from the mountain of red tape Brussels imposes in it so it can compete with the world.
I want control of our borders back, this is a small island, we can't keep taking people in and I sure as hell don't want to share a border with Iraq, Iran and Syria should they be mad enough to let Turkey in.
I want our health service safe from TTIP or any other forms of "harmonisation".
I want the billions paid to the EU every year to be spent here.

[RatB0Y68]

I want out of the EU. I would have been fine with staying if the EU had simply remained a common market.

 

I have heard it discussed by online news articles/ random voices on the internet that the EU would 'punish' the UK economically if it left eg. by refusing to trade with us etc. No reason to suggest they would necessarily do this, but I have heard this complaint just enough for it to merit a mention.

 

Two problems with this, firstly it is illegal as far as I am aware to punish a member state for leaving. Secondly, it sets a damning precedent; with friends like that, who needs enemies?

 

I have also heard it said that leaving the EU would cause disruption and economic uncertainty. This might even be true, but I would argue that any large political or societal change is going to initially cause disruption, we will simply adapt and move on. it should also be noted that there are plenty of other fish in the sea, trade-wise

[sunshinenbrick]

I've thought about many of these things myself quite hard and they weigh heavily in my mind. However there are things that feel a wildly rose-tinted about the 'leave' campaign that makes me uneasy. No one has said 'it's gonna be tough but it'll be worth it', becasue it will be very hard work for us to get back to where we are right now. At least the 'stay' campaign have said 'it's not perfect, but it can be made better'... I think the marriage analogy works quite well.

 

Let me try break my arguements down to deal with some specific issues.

 

Firstly is the idea of our democracy... Who's democracy exactly? Becasue I can tell you that the people who are spear-heading the 'leave' UK are NOT interested in the slightest about the common folk, their 'rights', and what we are being told we are going to get. People do not still take their politicians seriously do they? Have we not learnt to read between the lines?

 

Look at our colonisation and enslavery past... we have a very strong authoritatrian background and our goverment are not unprone to using rather forceful and draconian measures to exert their power on the people. Whether it is removing our human rights, free media, right to strike or even water cannons and goodness knows what else. We are all peasants/plebians at the end of the day in their eyes, just listen to what Sir Alan Duncan said the other day... their actual opinion of 'the people' is probably much worse than this behind closed doors.

 

Furthermore to this point is that it is widely known that our own politicians have been deliberately putting the spanners in the works in order to lead up to this referrendum. Many of the laws which they moan about and make examples of on television and in the papers were voted for and sometimes even instigated by the UK in the first place. It is simply amazing that they are able to play people like this but then it happens all the time and is no real surprise.

 

Second is the economy. The number of companies in the UK with EU money is staggering. From aviation to power companies and transport... If we leave it is going to be massive. Totally massive. So much so that there is a very real reason why things are being maintined as 'speculation'. Linked to this is jobs and the rights we have as workers regarding holidays, family etc etc... the UK already has some of the least protections for its people out of all the major european economies. This might have something to do with our already very liberal markets but could also have something to do with rich offshore funds and our rather interesting relationships with arms trade rings.

 

Thirdly, having been a migrant twice in my life now and can say that the UK government have pretty much chosen the UK to be set-up the way it has been. The demographic of the rest of Europe has not changed as much as it has here and they have even less restrictions than we do. The reason? Well it's mainly becasue of multiculturism, open market, low wage economy and our long history of being a trade-based country that thrives on the immigration of skills and goods, as well as the people. The rest of Europe is much much more difficult to migrate to, they are genrally much more wary of outsiders, have much stronger unions, do not support any kind of multiculturalism (you have to become 'one of them' much more than in the UK).

 

This begs the question then as to how leaving Europe will make this any better as the politicians have in many cases deliberately engineerd the UK to be the way it is. In fact it is one of the reasons I decided to stay in the UK after coming back. While I agree it presents logistical and other such challenges, it is still a highly progressive way of thinking in this highly globalised world. While not perfect it is certainly a very rich and prosperous country becasue of its relationships with other nations and cultures. I think my point here being that the things being promised are not going to come to fruition by simply leaving the EU. The problems are not the people but the people who are in power that are playing a game of Risk and have not handled the situation well in many cases and even instigated the problems of mass immigration from the middle east through war, economic exploitation and geo-political ideologies.

 

The UK leaving the EU will be like a house of cards and my fear is that the whole campaign is a farce that it has long been put in motion for us to leave the EU in order to both destabalise it and cause major economic ripples across the globe for the vain and tyrannical panderings of a few war-mongering empire building zealots. If one looks back over the years and also studies the way the UK has in many cases made things purposefully difficult for both its own citizens and other members of the 'union'... it just all seems so planned.

 

Now do not get me wrong, there are plenty of problems in the EU and in many cases there are things that could benefit from a shake up. That is already happening with Greece and the migration crises and in many ways the EU is showing signs of pulling to the right and actually following the 'success' of the UK. But both sides of it are built a great deal on the individual and collective ideas (even if they are fabrications) that it can or cannot work (much like a marriage). It's good to be different, but if you just walk away with your fingers in your ears, or go in with a militant oppostional attitude, then it is much more likely to be doomed to fail. I am not saying that either is more 'guilty' than the other and that things should not change but doing so takes participation and collaboration, and I certainly don't trust Tory bankbenchers and the Eton elite to do us any favours.

 

Found this today that made me laugh:

 

https://www.facebook.com/HuffPostUKPolitics/videos/1023178771095394/

 

 

p.s. my apologies for my frankness in trying to explore the arguments a little further :wink:

[JimboUK]

I want out of the EU. I would have been fine with staying if the EU had simply remained a common market.

 

I have heard it discussed by online news articles/ random voices on the internet that the EU would 'punish' the UK economically if it left eg. by refusing to trade with us etc. No reason to suggest they would necessarily do this, but I have heard this complaint just enough for it to merit a mention.

 

Two problems with this, firstly it is illegal as far as I am aware to punish a member state for leaving. Secondly, it sets a damning precedent; with friends like that, who needs enemies?

 

I have also heard it said that leaving the EU would cause disruption and economic uncertainty. This might even be true, but I would argue that any large political or societal change is going to initially cause disruption, we will simply adapt and move on. it should also be noted that there are plenty of other fish in the sea, trade-wise

 

The argument that the Germans would stop selling us cars and the French stop selling us wine is one of the more ridiculous arguments put forward by the remain camp, we run a large deficit with the EU which means they'd be hurting themselves by not trading with us, anyway the WTO would take a very dim view of any shenanigans like that.

 

@sunshinenbrick Look at the first world countries outside of the EU, they manage just fine so why wouldn't we? have a little faith in your fellow countrymen.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

@sunshinenbrick Look at the first world countries outside of the EU, they manage just fine so why wouldn't we? have a little faith in your fellow countrymen.

 

 

Most of those countries have shown a keen interest in us stying in the EU though, because they use us as a 'stop-gap' and a way into many EU markets that are notouriously protectionist.

 

We also have to deal with the fact that we are already in the EU, and they are not.

 

I have a lot of faith in my 'fellow countrymen'. Some of them, even ones in my own family, scare me a lot with their very narrow and hypocritical views though. For example a person I know who wants to vote 'out' but then wants to use a bill of European human rights to stop some massive house being built right on her doorstep... very confusing.

 

But its not so much individuals that I would say I have seeds of doubt about anyway. It is the way they are manipulated to believe something through the media and politcal football so as to suit a certain narrative. We are told so many things by politicians and then it all turns out to be baloney and we end up fronting the bill. Then fall for the bait again... and again.

 

I know we could have the exact same arguements both ways but the benefits of being more closely connected to our neighbours (both within our own country and beyond) is that we will be less isolated and thus subject to having the wool pulled over our eyes. It's no secret within the EU that things are not as they should be and I do believe in power of the people, both my fellow countrymen and 'fellow europeans'. The world is not the same one it was 50 or so years ago and the stage is much bigger from BRICS, to TTIP, TISA, CETA and other global entities that are all to eager to eat us all alive.

 

I fear that the fragmentation of Europe is exactly what a few of these multi-lateral organisations would love.

[ginnyfizz]

Out.

 

I want a return to democracy where the people elect a government that is responsible to them, not a bunch of managers who answer to Brussels.

I want our laws made here by our elected representatives.

I want us to be able to make trade deals that suit us, not Germany.

I want British business freed from the mountain of red tape Brussels imposes in it so it can compete with the world.

I want control of our borders back, this is a small island, we can't keep taking people in and I sure as hell don't want to share a border with Iraq, Iran and Syria should they be mad enough to let Turkey in.

I want our health service safe from TTIP or any other forms of "harmonisation".

I want the billions paid to the EU every year to be spent here.

This.

We are more at risk from TTIP et al, sunshinenbrick, if we stay in than if we leave. The EU (fronted by Krups of Germany) are reported to be in cahoots with the Chinese to shut down the Port Talbot steelworks. The French farmers periodically blockade and destroy British imports, including roasting lamb without slaughtering it first. Our fishing fleet solemnly obey EU rules and spend most of their time tied up in port with their crews laid off, whilst the Spanish boats with their small mesh nets come and decimate the fish stocks in our waters. I could go on...

 

Had my leaflet at the taxpayers expense from Dodgy Dave to say why we should stay in. It's in the cat litter tray.

Brexit!

[sunshinenbrick]

 

We are more at risk from TTIP et al, sunshinenbrick, if we stay in than if we leave. The EU (fronted by Krups of Germany) are reported to be in cahoots with the Chinese to shut down the Port Talbot steelworks. The French farmers periodically blockade and destroy British imports, including roasting lamb without slaughtering it first. Our fishing fleet solemnly obey EU rules and spend most of their time tied up in port with their crews laid off, whilst the Spanish boats with their small mesh nets come and decimate the fish stocks in our waters. I could go on...

 

Had my leaflet at the taxpayers expense from Dodgy Dave to say why we should stay in. It's in the cat litter tray.

Brexit!

 

 

In all fairness, those kind of 'tricks of trade' are not new and have been used by nations including ourselves to manipulate the markets. Being in the EU has only made us more aware of it. It is also widely reported that our own politicians will cover things up, lobby and other dirty backhanded deals in order to profit their own ends.... surely we all know this. I am all for transparency and agree there is not enough of it both in the UK, Europe, and throughout the world.

 

Speaking of which is our 'politicians' and business (wo)men who ALREADY are running a huge amount of our media, banks and institutions, many of which do come from elsewhere and have nothing to do with Europe. As for the NHS, most of Europe have their own national health service and are equally reluctant to 'sell' them to foreign businesses. But if 'we' won't pitch in to our own services then who else is there to buy them? It might not in fact be America as they are going the other way and investing in their own system even if many of them don't like it. The other options could be even more shocking...

 

Let us not forget WHO we will be left with either... Borris (who believes the super-wealthy are a 'discriminated minority'), Gove (who believes in corporal punishment), IDS (who make no mistake only cares about those who are disabled because they have to carry around so much money) and other 'dodgy' characters who only care about their core donor base and are quite happy to frack and fray the nation to fulfill some crazy ideological game of thrones with everybody's lives.

 

We have nothing of much significance but banking and 'financial services' left - it's all been sold already. They want to turn us into Switzerland? We would have to literally turn the entire working class into some sort of fast-food product in order to achieve that. The scary thing being, THAT is precisely what they would gladly do. Yes leaving might be beneficial to some, but it won't be you or I who will be 'walking on sunshine' for sure.

 

On top of all that, a vote to leave could easily lead to a break up the UK itself. Both Wales and Scotland are looking to split, and Nothern Ireland may very well want to not stick around either...

 

Sorry if I am a little impassioned but I guess I just care about this all so much and I am very worried :sad:

[JimboUK]

 

 

@sunshinenbrick Look at the first world countries outside of the EU, they manage just fine so why wouldn't we? have a little faith in your fellow countrymen.

 

 

Most of those countries have shown a keen interest in us stying in the EU though, because they use us as a 'stop-gap' and a way into many EU markets that are notouriously protectionist.

 

We also have to deal with the fact that we are already in the EU, and they are not.

 

I have a lot of faith in my 'fellow countrymen'. Some of them, even ones in my own family, scare me a lot with their very narrow and hypocritical views though. For example a person I know who wants to vote 'out' but then wants to use a bill of European human rights to stop some massive house being built right on her doorstep... very confusing.

 

But its not so much individuals that I would say I have seeds of doubt about anyway. It is the way they are manipulated to believe something through the media and politcal football so as to suit a certain narrative. We are told so many things by politicians and then it all turns out to be baloney and we end up fronting the bill. Then fall for the bait again... and again.

 

I know we could have the exact same arguements both ways but the benefits of being more closely connected to our neighbours (both within our own country and beyond) is that we will be less isolated and thus subject to having the wool pulled over our eyes. It's no secret within the EU that things are not as they should be and I do believe in power of the people, both my fellow countrymen and 'fellow europeans'. The world is not the same one it was 50 or so years ago and the stage is much bigger from BRICS, to TTIP, TISA, CETA and other global entities that are all to eager to eat us all alive.

 

I fear that the fragmentation of Europe is exactly what a few of these multi-lateral organisations would love.

 

 

They want us in the EU because it benefits them, not us. The remain camp is made up of career politicians and big business, none of them care about this country, look who's fronting it, Stewart Rose, the guy who said British workers should work like the Chinese and said of the increase in wages for the low paid that would follow Brexit "That’s not necessarily a good thing", of course it isn't for him and his mates, they much prefer to pay next to nothing and let the taxpayer pay the rest in the form of in work benefits.

 

The EU isn't run for the benefit of the people, it's run for big business, the mountains of red tape keep the smaller businesses down and work in favour of the large multinationals. Look at what was done to Greece, the was purely to prop up French and German banks, they'd happily sell us down the river too, you only need to look at the way they're embracing TTIP to see that. There is a reason why the RMT, Respect and even the Communist Party are joining Tory, UKIP and Labour people in backing an out vote.