Wanted: NMM Testers and Focus Group

[Alex9009202]

Already reviewing a mod called tamriel of tanks for skyrim and i found a bug with it when you go under a rick with a high ledge it goes spiking everywhere plus i have some improvements that can be made with it such as making the bigger tanks heavier and slower and having the shells coming out of the actual barrel instead of the machine gun port as well as having the turret turn like irl. so i found some improvements that can be made

 

[Alex9009202]

and why not for the nexus mod manager have a desktop app like steam does which has easy access to the mods such as downloading uploading sharing uninstalling. that would just make my day

[sevencardz]

Sorry if this comment is inappropriate somehow... but I can't help but wonder why the Nexus bothers to spend so much time and effort trying to improve Nexus Mod Manager when Mod Organizer is clearly superior. What features would I want in Nexus Mod Manager you ask? Everything that Mod Organizer does would be my answer...

 

Now again, this is just my 2 cents, but if I were in charge of Nexus Mod Manager development, I would halt it entirely. I would reach out to Tannin and ask if a collaboration could be established where Mod Organizer could become the site's official mod management software. I would phase out NMM usage in favor of Mod Organizer over time and eventually drop NMM support entirely.

 

I don't buy arguments that Mod Organizer somehow has a steeper learning curve or is more difficult to use somehow because it isn't. I had to reinstall Skyrim from scratch several times a month when I used NMM because of the invasive installation method of placing files right in the Skyrim install directory and having only one chance during installation to decide what I want to overwrite and what I don't. If you want to cut down on the frustration and hate from users, then that is problem #1 to solve. Mod Organizer gets around this with its mod isolation feature, which by the way, is the MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE for any mod management software to have, in my opinion. If you guys aren't hard at work making profiling work with virtual directories for NMM, then I honestly think you're wasting your time. Even if you are working on these things... why? Again, no offense meant here, just my unmitigated opinion. It just seems like you guys are struggling to invent a new wheel when a perfectly designed wheel is sitting in the garage next door.

[phantompally76]

In response to post #36910965. #36911220, #36923925, #36926780, #36929315, #36931910, #36933855 are all replies on the same post.

prinyo wrote:

 

In response to post #36893740.

Jinxxed0 wrote: I dont want to share my profiles because I modify just about every single mod i download and at least 60% of the mods i use come from somehwere else or are my personal mods. I dont want to download other people's profiles either. so please don't ruin the experience for those of us who don;'t want that stuff. Don't be windows 8/10

Then don't share your profile or download other people's profiles, then...

 

 

I read this reply as a promise that the new profile uploading features will be implemented as truly optional with no impact on the people who don't want to use them. That's good news!

 

Such a reassurance is needed, because only several months ago the profiles themselves were added as an obligatory to use feature with far reaching consequences for people who don't want to use them but have no way to switch them of.

(You can't "not use the profiles", by design you are always using some default profile. Even if you never create a profile you are using the one the software created for you with all the consequences of the virtual install logic)

 

jinxxed0 was simply expressing the concern that I also (an other users) have that the new features will not be entirely optional and will create additional problems for the users who don't want to use them. So it is really nice the have the assurance of the site owner that this is not going to be the case.

Dark0ne wrote: It would be a huge breach of privacy if all the mods you use in NMM were automatically shared with everyone on the internet. So, naturally, this is going to be completely opt-in and can safely be ignored if you have no interest in it.

phantompally76 wrote: Would it have killed you to word it like this initially rather than to go out of your way to try to make Jinxxed0 feel stupid? He's a supporter for God's sake. Why would you do that?

I wasn't aware it was going to be an opt-in, either. I don't think most people are. Everything about it has felt invasive, unnecessary and overcomplicated. I haven't forgotten how upset people were when they installed 0.61 in good faith, had to reinstall their entire mod stack (which may have taken years to collect, tweak and get to play nice with each other) and when expressing their disappointment were essentially met with "Well, you should have read the agreement more carefully. It was right there in big red letters, you contemptible morons". This is why I'm still using 0.56.1, and I asked two pages back whether this still happens when you upgrade. I didn't receive a response, so I have no intentions of upgrading, simple as that.

Are you going to condescend me and try to make me feel stupid as well? I suppose you have a better claim to do so than you did for Jinxxed0, because I'm not a supporter or premium member (and this is a prime example of why I am not), but come on, man. I understand it's your site, your rules, your little kingdom where your word is law, and I get that. I just don't understand why you would go out of your way to make people who have given you money feel stupid because they don't know as much about the software as you do. Ignorance does not equal stupidity, and misinformation does not warrant such condescension.

I like this site, and I like being a part of this community, and I appreciate the webspace. And I understand this is a business and source of income for you. But sometimes, man, sometimes I have to really bite my tongue when I read your correspondences with the community. And I don't think I'm alone.

DuskDweller wrote: If you don't want to use the new functionality, just ignore the new tab, NMM won't force you into it.

If you just want to backup your profile for you and only you to access, so you and only you can download it using your Nexus credentials on a another pc or after a complete system reboot, you can just have an online backup.

If you want to share it you can click on the button to share it, if at any time you want to hide it from public you'll be free to do that by simply pressing a button.

Dark0ne wrote:

In response to post #36910965. #36911220, #36923925, #36926780 are all replies on the same post.

prinyo wrote:

In response to post #36893740.

Jinxxed0 wrote: I dont want to share my profiles because I modify just about every single mod i download and at least 60% of the mods i use come from somehwere else or are my personal mods. I dont want to download other people's profiles either. so please don't ruin the experience for those of us who don;'t want that stuff. Don't be windows 8/10

Then don't share your profile or download other people's profiles, then...

I read this reply as a promise that the new profile uploading features will be implemented as truly optional with no impact on the people who don't want to use them. That's good news!

Such a reassurance is needed, because only several months ago the profiles themselves were added as an obligatory to use feature with far reaching consequences for people who don't want to use them but have no way to switch them of.

(You can't "not use the profiles", by design you are always using some default profile. Even if you never create a profile you are using the one the software created for you with all the consequences of the virtual install logic)

jinxxed0 was simply expressing the concern that I also (an other users) have that the new features will not be entirely optional and will create additional problems for the users who don't want to use them. So it is really nice the have the assurance of the site owner that this is not going to be the case.

Dark0ne wrote: It would be a huge breach of privacy if all the mods you use in NMM were automatically shared with everyone on the internet. So, naturally, this is going to be completely opt-in and can safely be ignored if you have no interest in it.

phantompally76 wrote: Would it have killed you to word it like this initially rather than to go out of your way to try to make Jinxxed0 feel stupid? He's a supporter for God's sake. Why would you do that?

I wasn't aware it was going to be an opt-in, either. I don't think most people are. Everything about it has felt invasive, unnecessary and overcomplicated. I haven't forgotten how upset people were when they installed 0.61 in good faith, had to reinstall their entire mod stack (which may have taken years to collect, tweak and get to play nice with each other) and when expressing their disappointment were essentially met with "Well, you should have read the agreement more carefully. It was right there in big red letters, you contemptible morons". This is why I'm still using 0.56.1, and I asked two pages back whether this still happens when you upgrade. I didn't receive a response, so I have no intentions of upgrading, simple as that.

Are you going to condescend me and try to make me feel stupid as well? I suppose you have a better claim to do so than you did for Jinxxed0, because I'm not a supporter or premium member (and this is a prime example of why I am not), but come on, man. I understand it's your site, your rules, your little kingdom where your word is law, and I get that. I just don't understand why you would go out of your way to make people who have given you money feel stupid because they don't know as much about the software as you do. Ignorance does not equal stupidity, and misinformation does not warrant such condescension.

I like this site, and I like being a part of this community, and I appreciate the webspace. And I understand this is a business and source of income for you. But sometimes, man, sometimes I have to really bite my tongue when I read your correspondences with the community. And I don't think I'm alone.

DuskDweller wrote: If you don't want to use the new functionality, just ignore the new tab, NMM won't force you into it.

If you just want to backup your profile for you and only you to access, so you and only you can download it using your Nexus credentials on a another pc or after a complete system reboot, you can just have an online backup.

If you want to share it you can click on the button to share it, if at any time you want to hide it from public you'll be free to do that by simply pressing a button.

Indeed, it seems like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about something.

 

I wasn't aware it was going to be an opt-in, either. I don't think most people are. Everything about it has felt invasive, unnecessary and overcomplicated.

Are you claiming to speak for the majority here? And you talk about my audacity...

Considering that using profiles in the new build of NMM (0.60 onwards) is completely optional, it would be very hard to force people to share profiles they may or may not even be using! As you've said you don't even use any versions of NMM 0.60+ onwards, I understand why you might be confused. But don't try and claim you talk for the majority in your post because of your own confusion on the matter.

 

"Well, you should have read the agreement more carefully. It was right there in big red letters, you contemptible morons"

Indeed, at the time of the 0.60 release of NMM and the subsequent issues, I admonished the people sending us death threats, thanked those very small amount of users who'd given us meaningful bug reports, and I expressed a shock that so many people blindly install updates of beta software that's well known and documented to have regular buggy releases. I also encouraged people to read the release notes and any warnings prior to clicking "next" continuously on future updates until the update process is finished without reading anything.

I still stand by that. Sorry if that some how insults you.

 

Are you going to condescend me and try to make me feel stupid as well?

I'm going to talk to you the same way I have talked to everyone for the past 15 years on this site. If you feel like this is condescension then...er....ok!?

 

I just don't understand why you would go out of your way to make people who have given you money feel stupid because they don't know as much about the software as you do. Ignorance does not equal stupidity, and misinformation does not warrant such condescension.

Personally, I don't understand where you got the idea that I was treating Prinyo like an idiot in my response. Or indeed, why you felt the need to come in and White Knight him like this. Perhaps I'm just blind to it, or perhaps it's that seeming(ly obvious) chip on your shoulder again? I answered his question, and gave him a good reason why we would never do such a thing to boot as well. If you think that's rude or insulting then...er...ok?

 

I like this site, and I like being a part of this community, and I appreciate the webspace. And I understand this is a business and source of income for you. But sometimes, man, sometimes I have to really bite my tongue when I read your correspondences with the community. And I don't think I'm alone.

I am, and always have been, blunt, direct, to the point, and openly lacking in every PR skill going. I'm bloody sure you're not alone in your distaste for how I interact with certain situations. Do you think I really mind that? Of course I don't. I've been doing this for 15 years now. The way I talk hasn't changed, and likely won't change. Some people like the blunt approach I have, others despise it and say I have a (misplaced) superiority complex. Frankly, I don't really give a rats. This is just who I am and how I do things.

I feel like you've blown up over the most ridiculous thing. Re-reading my original response, I really don't get why you got your knickers in a twist over it. I can only assume that you have that chip on your shoulder from the 0.60 release, which you didn't appreciate, and as such it's manifesting itself now over the silliest of things so you can get your point across to me about how you dislike how I talk to people in certain situations.

Thanks for letting me know you dislike how I talk to people.

Blitz54 wrote: Roasted. So. Hard.

bubinga64 wrote: I'd like to share something my mother always used to say (God bless her soul).

"Never argue with and idiot. Most people happening by won't be able to tell the difference."

Take that how you will. I've found it handy on many occasions.

"Personally, I don't understand where you got the idea that I was treating Prinyo like an idiot in my response. Or indeed, why you felt the need to come in and White Knight him like this. Perhaps I'm just blind to it, or perhaps it's that seeming(ly obvious) chip on your shoulder again? I answered his question, and gave him a good reason why we would never do such a thing to boot as well. If you think that's rude or insulting then...er...ok?"

I wasn't referring to Prinyo, I was talking about your condescending and contemptuous reply to Jinxxed0 (who as I stated before is a SUPPORTER, meaning he has given you money) a page or two back now. Had you taken the time to actually read what I typed rather than worry more about the formatting on your pithy response, you might have noticed that. Prinyo did a good job (a MUCH better job than me) of explaining to you why that was totally out of line, but you probably didn't bother to read that, either.

I'll say again that I completely understand that this is your site, and your rules. And I have to respect the fact that you don't have to abide by those rules yourself. And I'm not going to press this matter further because frankly I know if I do you'll have no qualms about banning me from the site, and as I stated before, I enjoy mod testing and interacting with this community far too much to jeopardize that. Furthermore, as someone who is neither a premium member, nor a supporter, nor a mod author, and who will NEVER disable Adblock on this site, I am fully cognizant that I am utterly beneath your contempt.

Yet I still maintain that condescending someone like Jinxxed0, a supporter who has given you money (no matter how much or how little) and helped put food on your table, clothes on your back, and a roof over your head, who did absolutely nothing wrong other than express a totally legitimate concern echoed by others in this thread, and for no other reason than that's how you've done things for the past fifteen years and you have no intentions of being sorry about it...

That's just not right.

[AraFox]

I guess I'm just a simple country lass. I don't understand why this thread has devolved into petty arguing and shots at the software.

 

NMM is not a requirement for using Nexus Mods or the Nexus Forums. If you don't like NMM, don't use it. There's nothing to be gained in trying to degrade the software or the people building it. The OP asked for willing people to test their software. If you're not willing, then... don't. Anything else in this thread is just pot-stirring. My mama always told me that he who stirs the crap pot has to lick the spoon.

 

*sigh* I should probably just click out of this screen without posting this. It won't make a bit of difference.

[GamerPoets]

As someone who has created more than 30 tutorials for Mod Organizer over the last 2+ years and now finally knows every little piece of the program (the version that will not be brought to 64bit games in any near future lol... though there are hopes for the second version of it) I can confidently say that there are only a handful of options that MO offers (staple functions) that if NMM implemented would make it the most logical choice for all modders. The 2.3million downloads for MO apposed to the 6 million for NMM (which has been around longer, is able to be used for more games and has had a lot of people leave it behind for MO) shows that MO has an obvious pull and the reasons are truly not that many.

 

While profiles are "great" they are not the reason that MO is a better choice for the games that it can manage. It would be nice to have a single "go to" manager for all games. I don't think I'm alone in that thinking. However, it's never going to happen unless the key features of MO are incorporated into NMM. The simplicity and learning curve of NMM is very attractive (especially to new or casual modders) however, that simplicity comes with restriction that is only revealed when using a manager like Mod Organizer and quickly becomes something that you frown over when NMM becomes the only "good" option to mod certain games (fo4 for example) after having all of that functionality at your disposal left behind.

-the "Hide" function being one of those features.

 

All this to say that I'm rooting for you guys and hope that you can implement some of these major functions that NMM desperately lacks.

Edited April 23, 2016 by GamerPoets

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #36910965. #36911220, #36923925, #36926780, #36929315, #36931910, #36933855, #36956690 are all replies on the same post.

prinyo wrote:

 

In response to post #36893740.

Jinxxed0 wrote: I dont want to share my profiles because I modify just about every single mod i download and at least 60% of the mods i use come from somehwere else or are my personal mods. I dont want to download other people's profiles either. so please don't ruin the experience for those of us who don;'t want that stuff. Don't be windows 8/10

Then don't share your profile or download other people's profiles, then...

 

 

I read this reply as a promise that the new profile uploading features will be implemented as truly optional with no impact on the people who don't want to use them. That's good news!

 

Such a reassurance is needed, because only several months ago the profiles themselves were added as an obligatory to use feature with far reaching consequences for people who don't want to use them but have no way to switch them of.

(You can't "not use the profiles", by design you are always using some default profile. Even if you never create a profile you are using the one the software created for you with all the consequences of the virtual install logic)

 

jinxxed0 was simply expressing the concern that I also (an other users) have that the new features will not be entirely optional and will create additional problems for the users who don't want to use them. So it is really nice the have the assurance of the site owner that this is not going to be the case.

Dark0ne wrote: It would be a huge breach of privacy if all the mods you use in NMM were automatically shared with everyone on the internet. So, naturally, this is going to be completely opt-in and can safely be ignored if you have no interest in it.

phantompally76 wrote: Would it have killed you to word it like this initially rather than to go out of your way to try to make Jinxxed0 feel stupid? He's a supporter for God's sake. Why would you do that?

I wasn't aware it was going to be an opt-in, either. I don't think most people are. Everything about it has felt invasive, unnecessary and overcomplicated. I haven't forgotten how upset people were when they installed 0.61 in good faith, had to reinstall their entire mod stack (which may have taken years to collect, tweak and get to play nice with each other) and when expressing their disappointment were essentially met with "Well, you should have read the agreement more carefully. It was right there in big red letters, you contemptible morons". This is why I'm still using 0.56.1, and I asked two pages back whether this still happens when you upgrade. I didn't receive a response, so I have no intentions of upgrading, simple as that.

Are you going to condescend me and try to make me feel stupid as well? I suppose you have a better claim to do so than you did for Jinxxed0, because I'm not a supporter or premium member (and this is a prime example of why I am not), but come on, man. I understand it's your site, your rules, your little kingdom where your word is law, and I get that. I just don't understand why you would go out of your way to make people who have given you money feel stupid because they don't know as much about the software as you do. Ignorance does not equal stupidity, and misinformation does not warrant such condescension.

I like this site, and I like being a part of this community, and I appreciate the webspace. And I understand this is a business and source of income for you. But sometimes, man, sometimes I have to really bite my tongue when I read your correspondences with the community. And I don't think I'm alone.

DuskDweller wrote: If you don't want to use the new functionality, just ignore the new tab, NMM won't force you into it.

If you just want to backup your profile for you and only you to access, so you and only you can download it using your Nexus credentials on a another pc or after a complete system reboot, you can just have an online backup.

If you want to share it you can click on the button to share it, if at any time you want to hide it from public you'll be free to do that by simply pressing a button.

Dark0ne wrote:

In response to post #36910965. #36911220, #36923925, #36926780 are all replies on the same post.

prinyo wrote:

In response to post #36893740.

Jinxxed0 wrote: I dont want to share my profiles because I modify just about every single mod i download and at least 60% of the mods i use come from somehwere else or are my personal mods. I dont want to download other people's profiles either. so please don't ruin the experience for those of us who don;'t want that stuff. Don't be windows 8/10

Then don't share your profile or download other people's profiles, then...

I read this reply as a promise that the new profile uploading features will be implemented as truly optional with no impact on the people who don't want to use them. That's good news!

Such a reassurance is needed, because only several months ago the profiles themselves were added as an obligatory to use feature with far reaching consequences for people who don't want to use them but have no way to switch them of.

(You can't "not use the profiles", by design you are always using some default profile. Even if you never create a profile you are using the one the software created for you with all the consequences of the virtual install logic)

jinxxed0 was simply expressing the concern that I also (an other users) have that the new features will not be entirely optional and will create additional problems for the users who don't want to use them. So it is really nice the have the assurance of the site owner that this is not going to be the case.

Dark0ne wrote: It would be a huge breach of privacy if all the mods you use in NMM were automatically shared with everyone on the internet. So, naturally, this is going to be completely opt-in and can safely be ignored if you have no interest in it.

phantompally76 wrote: Would it have killed you to word it like this initially rather than to go out of your way to try to make Jinxxed0 feel stupid? He's a supporter for God's sake. Why would you do that?

I wasn't aware it was going to be an opt-in, either. I don't think most people are. Everything about it has felt invasive, unnecessary and overcomplicated. I haven't forgotten how upset people were when they installed 0.61 in good faith, had to reinstall their entire mod stack (which may have taken years to collect, tweak and get to play nice with each other) and when expressing their disappointment were essentially met with "Well, you should have read the agreement more carefully. It was right there in big red letters, you contemptible morons". This is why I'm still using 0.56.1, and I asked two pages back whether this still happens when you upgrade. I didn't receive a response, so I have no intentions of upgrading, simple as that.

Are you going to condescend me and try to make me feel stupid as well? I suppose you have a better claim to do so than you did for Jinxxed0, because I'm not a supporter or premium member (and this is a prime example of why I am not), but come on, man. I understand it's your site, your rules, your little kingdom where your word is law, and I get that. I just don't understand why you would go out of your way to make people who have given you money feel stupid because they don't know as much about the software as you do. Ignorance does not equal stupidity, and misinformation does not warrant such condescension.

I like this site, and I like being a part of this community, and I appreciate the webspace. And I understand this is a business and source of income for you. But sometimes, man, sometimes I have to really bite my tongue when I read your correspondences with the community. And I don't think I'm alone.

DuskDweller wrote: If you don't want to use the new functionality, just ignore the new tab, NMM won't force you into it.

If you just want to backup your profile for you and only you to access, so you and only you can download it using your Nexus credentials on a another pc or after a complete system reboot, you can just have an online backup.

If you want to share it you can click on the button to share it, if at any time you want to hide it from public you'll be free to do that by simply pressing a button.

Indeed, it seems like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about something.

 

I wasn't aware it was going to be an opt-in, either. I don't think most people are. Everything about it has felt invasive, unnecessary and overcomplicated.

Are you claiming to speak for the majority here? And you talk about my audacity...

Considering that using profiles in the new build of NMM (0.60 onwards) is completely optional, it would be very hard to force people to share profiles they may or may not even be using! As you've said you don't even use any versions of NMM 0.60+ onwards, I understand why you might be confused. But don't try and claim you talk for the majority in your post because of your own confusion on the matter.

 

"Well, you should have read the agreement more carefully. It was right there in big red letters, you contemptible morons"

Indeed, at the time of the 0.60 release of NMM and the subsequent issues, I admonished the people sending us death threats, thanked those very small amount of users who'd given us meaningful bug reports, and I expressed a shock that so many people blindly install updates of beta software that's well known and documented to have regular buggy releases. I also encouraged people to read the release notes and any warnings prior to clicking "next" continuously on future updates until the update process is finished without reading anything.

I still stand by that. Sorry if that some how insults you.

 

Are you going to condescend me and try to make me feel stupid as well?

I'm going to talk to you the same way I have talked to everyone for the past 15 years on this site. If you feel like this is condescension then...er....ok!?

 

I just don't understand why you would go out of your way to make people who have given you money feel stupid because they don't know as much about the software as you do. Ignorance does not equal stupidity, and misinformation does not warrant such condescension.

Personally, I don't understand where you got the idea that I was treating Prinyo like an idiot in my response. Or indeed, why you felt the need to come in and White Knight him like this. Perhaps I'm just blind to it, or perhaps it's that seeming(ly obvious) chip on your shoulder again? I answered his question, and gave him a good reason why we would never do such a thing to boot as well. If you think that's rude or insulting then...er...ok?

 

I like this site, and I like being a part of this community, and I appreciate the webspace. And I understand this is a business and source of income for you. But sometimes, man, sometimes I have to really bite my tongue when I read your correspondences with the community. And I don't think I'm alone.

I am, and always have been, blunt, direct, to the point, and openly lacking in every PR skill going. I'm bloody sure you're not alone in your distaste for how I interact with certain situations. Do you think I really mind that? Of course I don't. I've been doing this for 15 years now. The way I talk hasn't changed, and likely won't change. Some people like the blunt approach I have, others despise it and say I have a (misplaced) superiority complex. Frankly, I don't really give a rats. This is just who I am and how I do things.

I feel like you've blown up over the most ridiculous thing. Re-reading my original response, I really don't get why you got your knickers in a twist over it. I can only assume that you have that chip on your shoulder from the 0.60 release, which you didn't appreciate, and as such it's manifesting itself now over the silliest of things so you can get your point across to me about how you dislike how I talk to people in certain situations.

Thanks for letting me know you dislike how I talk to people.

Blitz54 wrote: Roasted. So. Hard.

bubinga64 wrote: I'd like to share something my mother always used to say (God bless her soul).

"Never argue with and idiot. Most people happening by won't be able to tell the difference."

Take that how you will. I've found it handy on many occasions.

phantompally76 wrote: "Personally, I don't understand where you got the idea that I was treating Prinyo like an idiot in my response. Or indeed, why you felt the need to come in and White Knight him like this. Perhaps I'm just blind to it, or perhaps it's that seeming(ly obvious) chip on your shoulder again? I answered his question, and gave him a good reason why we would never do such a thing to boot as well. If you think that's rude or insulting then...er...ok?"

I wasn't referring to Prinyo, I was talking about your condescending and contemptuous reply to Jinxxed0 (who as I stated before is a SUPPORTER, meaning he has given you money) a page or two back now. Had you taken the time to actually read what I typed rather than worry more about the formatting on your pithy response, you might have noticed that. Prinyo did a good job (a MUCH better job than me) of explaining to you why that was totally out of line, but you probably didn't bother to read that, either.

I'll say again that I completely understand that this is your site, and your rules. And I have to respect the fact that you don't have to abide by those rules yourself. And I'm not going to press this matter further because frankly I know if I do you'll have no qualms about banning me from the site, and as I stated before, I enjoy mod testing and interacting with this community far too much to jeopardize that. Furthermore, as someone who is neither a premium member, nor a supporter, nor a mod author, and who will NEVER disable Adblock on this site, I am fully cognizant that I am utterly beneath your contempt.

Yet I still maintain that condescending someone like Jinxxed0, a supporter who has given you money (no matter how much or how little) and helped put food on your table, clothes on your back, and a roof over your head, who did absolutely nothing wrong other than express a totally legitimate concern echoed by others in this thread, and for no other reason than that's how you've done things for the past fifteen years and you have no intentions of being sorry about it...

That's just not right.

I have no idea why you even brought it up in this response thread, then, considering this is nothing to do with Jinxxed!? Why not post this as a response to the original Jinxxed reply?

The mind boggles, it really does. Edited April 24, 2016 by Dark0ne

[cjgarner]

In response to post #36932180. #36932770 is also a reply to the same post.

cjgarner wrote: I love NMM. I have found ways to get it to do what I want 99% of the time.
But it would be nice to have 2 things added that are missing.
1 - Is a way to make a default download folder or an easy way to pick were to download file vs hunting for the file NMM downloaded out of my 320 mods I use in my skyrim lol
2 - Is to have an uninstall all installed mods button! vs Having to uninstall each 1 by 1.
Even just being able to shift click a group to uninstall vs doing each one would be loads better =)

FMPhoenixHawk wrote: Actually, there is a way to do the second. Under the Tools menu, you can Disable all Active Mods or Uninstall All active mods.

LoL TY much I never noticed it there!

[prinyo]

[...]

Mod Organizer gets around this with its mod isolation feature, which by the way, is the MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE for any mod management software to have, in my opinion. If you guys aren't hard at work making profiling work with virtual directories for NMM, then I honestly think you're wasting your time.

 

 

People want different things :-)

 

You want an empty "data" directory, I want to see my mod files there all the time. I don't want "ghost" files feeded into my game. And I don't want any "virtualization" with the mod files.

 

The main reason I chose NMM at the beginning was the what-you-see-is-what-you-get approach. Open the game's data directory and there are all the files that will be used by the game when it starts.

You can see them, you can change them, you can sort them by date or by size (unfortunately no longer the case with the new NMM versions), you can see exactly the files the game will see and use.

If two different mods affect partly an aspect of the game I can see their files in the "data" folder all put together - exactly the way the game will see them and get a pretty good idea how they will interact.

I tried to understand why the "clean data folder" is such a holly concept but I still can't. The "mod isolation" concept sounds terrifying to me.

My complaints about the new NMM versions are exactly because it started going the MO way with the virtualization.

 

I'm writing this not because I want to start an argument is the MO's approach good or bad. My point is that some people prefer the way of MO, some prefer the way NMM does it. Some people tried both and chose to install by hand with the argument that it gives them better control and less complication.

None of them "is wrong", it just a preference. You think MO Is superior, I think NMM is.

 

The good thing is that we can both continue using the one we like :smile:

 

And also all this makes a difference for a small part of the NMM users. I imagine more than 90% are not interested in what is happening "behind the scenes". They want to download mods and play.

So comparing features, the idea that we see in OP about one-click download and install will have probably the maximum impact on the users. And more than 90% will be happy about it.

[prinyo]

 

In response to post #36934810. #36941220 is also a reply to the same post.

 

 

 

prinyo wrote:

[...] Considering that using profiles in the new build of NMM (0.60 onwards) is completely optional [...]

This is NOT true and this misconception is the main reason for most of the misunderstandings and miscommunication in the forum.

Before I go further I want to say that I use NMM to mod all my games and that my only motivation is to help make it better. I'm a developer/programmer in real life and in my posts I'm commenting on the software itself and it's usability and nothing more. I'm not interested in flame wars, I'm not a "hater", I'm not a "fan-boy", I'm not interested in anything else but to discuss the facts - objective, measurable facts and their impact on the users, including myself. With the only motivation that I need/want to use a reliable, predictable, stable and usable mod manager.

By definition an optional feature is one that the user can choose to activate or not and to use or not. The user can opt-in or opt-out of it.

The profiles are incorporated in the latest NMM versions (post 0.60) as a mandatory, core functionality.

1. There was no option to not activate them.

Many users payed tens of hours and lost custom changes in dealing with this activation (complete reinstall of all mods from scratch that in many cases led to complete reinstall of the games themselves). There was (is) no option to chose to not use profiles and have NMM work as normal.

2. There is no opt-in

It is pretty straight-forward - you need to accept using the profiles if you want to use the next versions and mod the games that are yet to be released. The way it was communicated was actually quite simple - you need to activate and use the profiles if you want to mod Fallout 4.

3. There is no opt-out

You can't turn off the profiles. Even if you never create a profile yourself you are still using a profile - the one the software created for you by default. You can not opt-out of the profiles and the VirtualInstall setup.

Even when it makes it impossible to backup your game when using an SDD (trying to use the backup actually doubles the space the game uses because the symlinks are copied as real files). You can not turn off the profiles and the VirtualInstall setup even if this adds additional layer of complication when trying to create a new mod. You can not turn off the profiles and the VirtualInstall setup for whatever reason you don't want want to use this feature and keep the software working the way it was before. As any optional feature would allow.

So you can't choose to not activate the profiles, you don't opt-in and you can't opt out. Want them or not - you are going to need to use them.

Why is this relevant now?

1. It was unexpected

I did read the red warning when I upgraded. I also did read the whole text. Including the part where it promised me it will only take 5 minutes. And my programmer mind calculated that nothing should go wrong, Because:

A. It has the source archives of all my mods in it's "mods" folder

B. It knows the order the mods were installed

C. The pre-0.60 versions weren't that slow so there was no way to predict how long it would take

So I thought "OK, by the time I go to the shop it will be done. Nothing can go wrong." And clicked Yes...

Several hours later the result was half-installed mods in completely random order. I was actually amazed that a software can produce so much chaos. The whole weekend after that was spent in reinstalling games and mods.

2. It was and still is dangerously broken

I have filed several bug reports about how dangerous using the profiles actually is. So far I don't think they have been addressed. NMM keeps randomly adding or removing mods from the profiles and if it crashes while switching profiles then it can "forget" tens of mods belonging to a profile. Actually using the profiles is still a gamble - the game might start after you switch profiles but it might crash as well.

3. Insult to injury

I keep reading, even in this thread, that it's user's fault if they had problems with the 0.61 update. They should learn to read...

For example, just several posts above this one:

" I also encouraged people to read the release notes and any warnings prior to clicking "next" continuously on future updates until the update process is finished without reading anything."

This is somewhat offensive because:

A. There were no details about the update in the dialog window on the old version that was telling you to download the new one. It simply said - there is a new version, you need to upgrade. That's all.

B. The warning in red about the mod reinstall was shown when it was already too late. I actually killed the install when I first read it and spent 30 minutes trying to find an older version to download, but could not. It turned out the link is hidden under a spoiler tag... I expected when the software presents such an important choice to give you options to easily go both ways. It did not.

C. The warning message was actually quite reassuring - we know what we are doing and in 5 minutes your mods will be reinstalled and there is no need to worry.

So I was trapped into upgrading to the profiles feature, I was not given a way to postpone it, I was told it would only take 5 minutes, I was warned that there will be no further updates if I don't accept... and now it is all my fault - apparently I can't read....

4. And apparently this is still an issue

Months after all this happened there is still a lot of finger pointing going on. Nexus says "We are developing a cool new feature". An user replies "Oh, God, not again..." And Nexus is upset...

And I'm sitting here thinking "The users and Nexus want one and the same thing - a nice, useful, stable and user-friendly manager". Why can't they work together?

Yes, there are trolls and flame wars in the forums but there are also people who genuinely want to help. What is the point to further the divide? Is it really that hard to work together?

LoganWolverine wrote: Good of you, for saying all this about their new stuff, I myself spent a couple of days having to redownload and reinstall everything all over again. Lucky for me I had a copy of NMM 0.56.1, That's what I will stick with. It ask me every time do I want to install the new one and I say Hell No!!!!! LOL. Not only did I not like the All in Profiling thing, but as a creator of mods I found that all of a sudden the creation kit couldn't find anything, I later found out that it was because of the way the profiling system had set everything up and then left I forget what they are called right off hand but they were some kind of funky links. This caused all kinds of headaches for me til I figured it all out and got rid of the new NMM and reinstalled the older one and life has been good for me with it. So lesson learned the hard way for me but til like you said the developers start listening to the users and take into account that not everyone want to use profiles and that everything that is developed should be with the mindset that not everyone that uses this software will want that function, then their developing for a single interest group and not for the public at large. I don't say all this as a hater thing either, I'm one of those old timey gamers and I have my training in the computer world as well.

[...] Considering that using profiles in the new build of NMM (0.60 onwards) is completely optional [...]

 

This is NOT true and this misconception is the main reason for most of the misunderstandings and miscommunication in the forum.

 

 

What I meant, and what I should have said, was once 0.60 is installed, using the profile functionality within NMM is completely optional. Yes, it changes the installation method of mods to use our virtualised system, something which is separate from profiles, but you can use 0.60+ without ever creating or interacting with the profile functionality within NMM.

 

That is what was meant when I said that using profiles is completely optional, e.g. you don't need to be there, making lots of different profiles, switching between them all the time. Your post goes off on a tangent based around a meaning of "optional" I did not intend to put forward, so I'm not going to argue most of your points simply because I know what you're telling me already.

 

 

I completely understand everything you said and also I'm not interesting in blaming and hating because I know that it's easy to criticize when watching from outside and I'm not the one looking at the bigger picture and making the hard choices.

My post was a reaction to several earlier posts from the thread. My points were two.

 

The ghost of the 0.60 drama is still pretty much alive and it is still haunting the communication from the both sides. it is time that both users and Nexus put the 0.60 drama in the past. I believe our 2 posts managed to put side by side the 2 points of view in a direct and open way. And while I'm not happy with what happened I can completely understand and appreciate why it did happen and everything you now do in order to prevent it from happening again. And I'm ready to put all of this in the past. I really hope those 2 posts side by side help more people do that. This goes both ways - because both sides allow the frustration to influence the communication and it doesn't help anyone.

 

On the second point - I'm a bit worried about the part of the post I left in the quote above.

"Optional" means something that is not required. Maybe users are not required to use the new profile feature in certain ways - creating, switching, deleting additional profiles, in addition to the one the system already created from them. But they are required to use it - they need to activate it and they can not opt-out of it. The "VirtualInstall" can not be separated from the profiles feature as it is simply the way to make it work. I can completely understand why it was done but that doesn't change the facts.

I don't think is possible to estimate how many people benefited from this and how many were hurt by it with no benefit. On one hand it is not possible to know how many people actively use the profiles. Maybe there are people with only 2 profiles that they really use and others with 10-20 profiles that were created once for testing an never used again. On the other hand it is also not possible to estimate how many people were actually inconvenienced by the switch. I can imagine most users that didn't have mods with scripted installers or with requirements for the installation order did not have any problems. (Still, CBBE was one of the mods that was breaking initially :-))

So it is not possible to say if the change benefited more users than it hurt.

 

What is important to understand is that the profiles and the virtual install system that they introduced are not an optional feature and it had a wider reaching consequences for people that don't use them and never asked for them.

And now when new features are added - also as optional, most users hope that they will really be optional and will not create problems for the people that don't want to use them.

 

There is one question in my mind that I know I have no right to actually say, but I'll say it anyway without wanting an answer. Given the limited development resources isn't it better to use them for further fixing the speed and stability that would benefit all the users instead of using them to develop a new functionality that almost no one is asking for and that is very limited by design? But as I said I'm not in a position to ask this so it is more of a stray thought. I have been in positions to make similar decisions and know that it is never that simple the way it looks from the outside. It also seems it is not possible to know what the reality will be in a month when the current FO4 beta is released. If the wild rumors all over the internet are to be believed we are now in the quiet period before the s#*!-storm.