Mod Picker: The Fearsome Juggernaut

[Elias555]

 

I never once said that modders owe anyone anything. Don't put words in my mouth.

Didn't/wouldn't need to.

[TerrorFox1234]

>The problem is that crappy system is, in all likelihood, probably going to make mod authors look bad

 

I'm sorry but this is pure speculation. I am working with my team to actually start addressing the concerns voiced but we can't address theoreticals and assumptions.

[TheBawb]

I have yet to take a stance on whether to endorse or decline mod picker. While the concept is interesting, my greatest concern is that of misguided information vital to the mod itself. Take my two-year project for example, (and I hate tooting my own horn, but this is where my concern lies) while the mod is vastly inspired by the lotr, I have made it entirely clear that we are not endorsed by the companies who own the copyright, do not promote the mod as being a part of lotr, nor use any copyrighted material (Including names) in the mod itself.

 

It would be one thing if a mod user made a false statement in the comments of my file page, claiming that the mod was set in Tolkien's world, because it would be apparent to me that they did not read the description well enough. But when misinformed users (no matter the rep, we all make mistakes) start making reviews that claim I have some kind of association with Middle Earth, Warner bros, or the Tolkien estate, and people buy into to that, I've got a serious problem on my hands. Especially if I am not active on MP, and cannot correct mistakes I am not aware of. I wouldn't be as concerned if the misinformation regraded something trivial like where the entrance is, or how to start the first quest, but when something slightly more serious such as our copyright stance has the chance of being widely spread incorrectly I tend to be a little worried. Obviously I am an exception as most authors don't have to worry about such matters, so if my concerns go about ignored I'll understand, but it is nevertheless troubling.

[Netrve]

Before I start, a little disclaimer: while the points I make are valid, the form can tend to be a bit cynical. By any means, I don't intend to insult anyone.

 

Okay, to get this straight: the biggest argument against Mod Picker is about a part of it, the Review system, which people fear will cause defamation of authors? Is this the problem?

 

I don't even know where to start.

 

Let's go about crushing little hopes and dreams first. It doesn't matter. No matter how much time, work, passion, love or else you spent to make your mod, it doesn't protect you and your mod from criticism.

I work with a small team on an own game. We work together; we have a connected passion and a dream we share. I personally paid for the expensive software I own and the Middleware licenses we use. I spent hundreds of hours on learning various things from programming over 3D modeling/texturing to design. But still, we are open to criticism. Only because we sacrificed blood and sweat doesn't grant us immunity from someone saying "This is crap.".

 

The same goes for mods and mod authors. Every users has the right to express his opinion about your mod, as long as they stay away from personal attacks. Latter should be covered by a moderation staff or similar. Mod authors have proven throughout the time that they often lack the capability to deal with criticism, even when it's expressed with the best intention. Now there is another proof you can add to that.

 

Even the Opt-Out method is, in my opinion, giving too much power to the mod authors, as it's basically a way of escaping any confrontation. "Better close my eyes and ears and everything will be fine! People are wrong!". An Opt-In method makes even less sense for this kind of project. You want to allow the user to just pick what they want. By using an Opt-In method you limit this to the point where the entire system could collapse.

 

Yes, initially Mod Picker will require oversight by the staff, but with a growing community a self-regulating mechanism will set in. Take Amazon or PCPartPicker for example. Good ones go up, bad ones down. If you fear the "stupidity of masses" then you can call back the aristocracy in the same breath. A Report button for wrong or misguiding Reviews would be a welcomed sight, but even then the Reviews should be first checked and then taken down.

 

 

I'm not sure why so many modders have such enormous problems with criticism. When you release something, then expect getting bad things to hear as well. Of course those can be wrong, but take a step back and try to view it from another perspective. A lot of times creative people miss out on things, because they are so tied into their projects. Getting negative feedback can feel like a kick into the stomach, but it's sometimes more than just helpful to get.

[Reneer]

>The problem is that crappy system is, in all likelihood, probably going to make mod authors look bad

 

I'm sorry but this is pure speculation. I am working with my team to actually start addressing the concerns voiced but we can't address theoreticals and assumptions.

It was pure speculation. I apologize to you and the Mod Picker team for it - I had had a bit to drink at that point and my brain wasn't exactly firing on all cylinders. So, again, sorry.

 

Just so I make my position clear: I'm not concerned about what anyone says about my mods. I've heard it all over the years. What I am concerned about is getting erroneous bug reports / compatibility issues from any source and then trying to figure out what the problem is, spending hours doing that, and it turns out there isn't one. I'm worried about the false-positive rate.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Reneer

[skinnytecboy]

This is all a bit silly really. It's silly to be getting so hung up Upon something that;

 

A; has no relation to creating or enjoying.

 

B; is no different (criticism wise) as reddit or any other non nexus mod related chat.

 

C; is meaningless to me as a creator.

 

Let me focus upon C for a sec... I don't give a monkey's bottom what someone thinks about my mods in a forum that is not related to the place where I originally uploaded. That's like saying I would worry about about Aldi complaining about a product I gave to Tesco. (For the record, Aldi rocks, but I'm just using the brands to emphasise my point). From my perspective, this seems to be nothing more than an extension of STEP

 

"Hey guys, here's what we recommend... For super lore friendly, idiot proof and vanilla content laced fun skym-ing"

 

Almost like an elite club, a pseudo reddit.

 

I don't mind it in truth, because to be honest, I'd rather just get on with making things that annoy the hell out of lore mongers.

 

(Damn... The mod picker audience will hate me ;))

[sunshinenbrick]

I also very much agree that this is a 'user' orientated tool and not one that is of any real benefit to authors.

 

Whether it was this thread or the orignal MA thread it has been mentioned that this could help unknown/new authors but there have been many examples pointed out in which many of the features of Mod Picker would not solve this issue and perhaps even make it worse. It is perhaps the most interesting potential feature BUT is not something that warrants a whole new site in my opinion. It would be much more useful and effective to have a 'surprise me' search, or mod 'theme' builder, integrated straight into the Nexus itself. Besides that is where everything resides in the first place.

 

If people want to make a review site then go ahead, but associating it and 'representing' the Nexus and the views of the authors in any way is a massive no no. This is obvious though and is the same as any review site that is not officially endorsed cannot claim to be.

 

Going further on the point of market orientation. I am a 'user', most of us are, but have over the years made my way into some heavy modding and then began writing guides and now getting into shaders. This has been done without any need for a 'compatibility checker' and by actually learning how to mod. This is the only way. Claiming that by making it easier to install mods will make better modders is a fallacy and is actually disrespectful and dismissive of the mod making process and even of 'users' themselves.

 

I have actually had a long run-in (even with Dark0ne himself) as the appropriateness of actually using the term 'user', as I believe it has an often negative, supressive effect in saying that 'you are a user and NOT an author'. This irritates me because it just doesn't work like that - we all have to start somewhere. But I digress (a little). The major point here is that the system proposed would actually embed the lines between 'authors' and 'users' and further divide the realtionship between the two. It could easily create resentment form authors because 'users' are being given the false impression that they are now 'modders', and then in turn would create resentment from the 'users' because they will have less of an idea about why certain things cannot be done, or that the modder simply doesn't have the time to do it, and then ultimately becasue the knowledge of how mods are made is being overly simplified and eroded. It is deceptive and in many ways exploitative.

 

The last thing which really concerns me is the apparent 'muscle' being used to corner authors into being part of the program. In the scale of things 'authors' are definitely the minority camp here. As a 'user' myself this is obviously a great sell, but this is only a very small part of a much larger picture. In the long run it will actually disable 'users' from getting the skills they need to mod because they don't have to learn anything. This will eventually mean less modders and yes, as someone else stated, be detrimental to the future of the community.

 

Let us also face the fact that installing mods and combing them together is not really that hard actually, if you know what you are doing and take time to read and learn. This is actually a part of what makes modding so special and rewarding, you feel like you have earned it and it also teaches you skills you can transfer to many other areas. This system would potentially take that away from people so in many respects is actually a diservice to both 'users' and 'authors'

 

Like I have said here now and in other posts/threads, there ARE potential uses for some of the features suggested and I am glad to see that finally the airways are opening up to consider peoples' concerns so that compromises/negotiation can take place. There needs to be much, MUCH more of this before any kind of system is thrust upon an already fragile community. If not handled well and simply bulldozed through regardless, then the 'slavery' reference may not end up being so out of context as people have suggested...

[mlee3141]

sunshinenbrick just echoed most of my primary concerns quite well.

Edited April 22, 2016 by mlee3141

[AlpineYJ]

Modding has ever been considered a hobby and a passion; not a product to which reviews and ratings are applicable. It is done simply for the enjoyment of the process itself, with no monetary nor practical gain, and shared simply to allow others to enjoy the product of the same. Thus, modders are simply hobbyists, who might listen to feedback on how to improve their work, and never a content creator/ independent developer who must suffer a barrage of complaints and demands. The pivotal aspect that separates the two is in the characterization and attitudes toward the author.

 

When a user responds in the context of a commenter, they treat the author as an equal, and talk without innate judgement or bias. However, when the same person sees a "review form" in front of them, with a rating scale to "judge" the quality of the author's work with every breath, then their role suddenly shifts into an arbiter, and they begin to feel entitled, and thus, begins to dehumanize the author. While I could care less for the nebulous aspects of "reputations", nor "subjective opinion", I care strongly for the global shift that draws ever near, and threatens to wrest both choice and control from the modding community.

 

The free spirit of the modding community has ever thrived on but one core principal: The absolute freedom to pick and choose any mod that catches your fancy for your mod list, and only be constrained by plugin limit/ game stability. While guides and online mod lists do exist, and users do follow them to some extent, the vast majority of people who use mods listen to none other than their own minds and hearts on such matters. Having a mechanized system mired in popularity derived from the unthinking horde is not only madness to those who may follow its whims, it is a downright logical contradiction. Those who use no guides need them not, and thus, will likely never touch Mod Picker. Yet, they still expect the same to write the reviews, and serve as our "guiding light". If you choose to follow the blind, then expect to be led astray, straight into the abyss of endless CTDs!

 

What do the people responsible for the coming demise of our modding community/ Mod Picker have to say about our valid needs and concerns? Nothing! They have turned a deaf ear to our every thought, ignored each piece of feedback, and stubbornly plowed on through author's rights with not even a passing glance. matortheeternal, Thallassa and TerrorFox1234 have not even attempted to compromise, and instead, have stated multiple times that they will go ahead with their plans to mirror a parody of each and every mod page on the Nexus, with the appropriate stats derived from the same, regardless of the wishes and desires of the respective mod authors who put so much blood, sweat and tears into their creations. Why? Simply because it is "within their legal right to do so", and to make a quick buck! After all, they intend to accept donations for doing absolutely nothing, when I, and countless other mod authors refuse to accept the same!

 

Thus, I shall hide all of my mods the moment Mod Picker goes live, including Aurlyn Dawnstone, and they shall remain that way until either they are either blacklisted by the Nexus, or they are taken down through copyright infringement/ lack of donations. I encourage others to make the logical choice, and do the same. I shall also be actively working against Mod Picker, and speaking out against them, and I encourage every voice to join with my own, and mingle into an unstoppable force that can tear down the glacial peaks! Mod Picker is an abomination; a fearsome juggernaut that tramples on the rights of mod authors, and tears the freedom of mod users asunder. Arise as a community, and end this threat once and for all!

 

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3927290-wip-mod-picker/

 

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/4023345-mod-picker-mod-author-discussion/

 

You are stoned. Folks love this thing already. You are on a witch hunt, which is not productive nor conducive to any *real* conversation.

 

Proof:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/4e7jg7/skyrim_mod_picker_progress_report_4/

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/43yjm1/skyrim_mod_picker_progress_report_2

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/4a6wto/skyrim_mod_picker_progress_report_3

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/40lp2b/skyrim_mod_picker_progress_report_1

[skinnytecboy]

 

 

You are stoned. Folks love this thing already. You are on a witch hunt, which is not productive nor conducive to any *real* conversation.

 

Proof:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/4e7jg7/skyrim_mod_picker_progress_report_4/

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/43yjm1/skyrim_mod_picker_progress_report_2

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/4a6wto/skyrim_mod_picker_progress_report_3

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/40lp2b/skyrim_mod_picker_progress_report_1

 

Oh dear, some hairy ape pulled up to the side of the road, wound down his window and shouted "you look kinda funny boy..".

 

All this to the theme music of (dueling banjos) Deliverance.

 

 

... not everything revolves around reddit. For example, I only just started myself last year for the dungeon contest. It is NOT a positive place when all is said and done.