Immigration in the US

[draconix]

Whatever, I'm waiting for people to get back on the topic of immigration. As it stands, I still firmly believe that under the idea that illegal immigrants have no rights in America, that we had no rights to set up a government. Our own laws illegitimize our country's existence. But whatever, if someone else wants to take up a position and defend it, have at it.:rolleyes:

[Aurielius]

Whatever, I'm waiting for people to get back on the topic of immigration. As it stands, I still firmly believe that under the idea that illegal immigrants have no rights in America, that we had no rights to set up a government. Our own laws illegitimize our country's existence. But whatever, if someone else wants to take up a position and defend it, have at it.:rolleyes:

LOL..now you want to take on the legitimacy of the American Revolution? You really are a glutton for punishment, but OK will oblige.The legitimacy come from the dissenters of the English Civil War who fought the crown under the concept that taxation without recourse to approval by parliament was illegal. The founding settlers were the descendants of just that Cromwellian tradition and their and now our Declaration of Independence was a direct product of the ideology of the Cromwellian Protectorate. Is there any history that you are properly grounded in?

[draconix]

You astound me with your utter lack of ability to comprehend simple ideas...

Please, if you don't understand what I wrote, re-read it until you do. I didn't contest the revolution.

Edited August 25, 2011 by draconix

[ginnyfizz]

I was wondering when someone would bring up the word "nomad". Natives had summer and winter settlements, and usually returned to the same grounds, because certain grounds were considered "holy".

 

Ummm...nomads tend to do that the world over, but although they return to the same grounds they do not have fixed settlements.

 

Like greywaste said, I'd advise "when in hole, stop digging". Oh and less of the condescension please.

[Aurielius]

You astound me with your utter lack of ability to comprehend simple ideas...

Please, if you don't understand what I wrote, re-read it until you do. I didn't contest the revolution.

The Declaration of Independence and the subsequent Revolutionary War was the basis for the legality Constitution,. which is the framework of the laws that govern the country. Our legitimate ability to set up a government starts with the Declaration of Independence which cites the legal precedents for revolt to the crown. You however, do not astonish me with your inability to admit factual error even when called out on it.

[marharth]

I am a tad bit confused what you guys are discussing.

 

I can't quite understand what draconix means with...

 

"Whatever, I'm waiting for people to get back on the topic of immigration. As it stands, I still firmly believe that under the idea that illegal immigrants have no rights in America, that we had no rights to set up a government. Our own laws illegitimate our country's existence. But whatever, if someone else wants to take up a position and defend it, have at it."

 

Are you saying that our current laws make our government illegitimate? Are you saying that our laws contradict with our ideology? Are you saying ALL laws that establish a official country are illegitimate? Are you saying there is not legali

 

This is a question by the way, not a challenge. I honestly don't quite fully understand what you mean by that.

Edited August 25, 2011 by marharth

[Ghogiel]

As it stands, I still firmly believe that under the idea that illegal immigrants have no rights in America, that we had no rights to set up a government. Our own laws illegitimize our country's existence.

That actually makes some sense to me actually. I would have said Our own laws legitimize our country's existence.

 

Recognise the genocide of the Native Americans or not, it seems to suggest by it's continued existence, America justifies itself. In the same way something like the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq is a legitimate form of expansion, if the States decided to break it's treaty and not intervene, then occupation of it would be justified. Or as was mentioned Hitlers conquest of Europe. Or China of tibet, or Israel's foundation and displacement of Palestine. I find the justifications thin for all of them personally. Basically it boils down to 'might is right'. Which is a philosophy I personally don't agree with.

 

I think in this modern day and age we can say that is the wrong way to go about it. Breaking every treaty and murdering the natives of a land sounds like a terrible thing.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Ghogiel

[draconix]

Okay, I'll try to clarify..

 

Looking at early settlers, they could easily be seen as illegal immigrants to this land. If we to transpose the belief system that illegal immigrants have no rights on this land upon those settlers, then I think it would follow that any form of government these people set up would be illegitimate, based on those laws. It would be hypocritical to hold those settlers to a different standard than we hold immigrants. Therefore I would propose that any immigration laws we have take into consideration the roots of the US, and try to find a solution that is less hypocritical if possible.

[Aurielius]

Recognise the genocide of the Native Americans or not, it seems to suggest by it's continued existence, America justifies itself. In the same way something like the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq is a legitimate form of expansion, if the States decided to break it's treaty and not intervene, then occupation of it would be justified. Or as was mentioned Hitlers conquest of Europe. Or China of tibet, or Israel's foundation and displacement of Palestine. I find the justifications thin for all of them personally. Basically it boils down to 'might is right'. Which is a philosophy I personally don't agree with.

Just so that I am clear, if no one contested Hitler's invasion and occupation of Poland, Belgium, Norway, Denmark and France then it was justified? You are going to need a long rope to climb out of this logic hole.

[redworld]

Let get this straight, I defined founded as in term of the road to creation of an nation. I do agree that Anglo-Sexons (Europeans) done horrible things to the natives and they destroyed their culture, society, and lands. United States of America isn't the original state like China where the original culture and people are still continued to exist today. So, it is like born out of early settlers and our founding fathers' visions to have FREEDOM that no where to be found in the world. We done many terrible acts against minorities (i.e. Black, Asians, etc...), weaker nations, and the natives, but this country contributed also many good things to the world like in medicines, advanced technology, and etc...because of its core ideals: Freedom and Equal Opportunity. For example, you should see in Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Albert Einstein. But, things are going to get harder for obtaining American Dream. US immigration helps bring many bright people to create better nation and you have to respect its laws that is coming here legally. Don't slap the faces of legal immigrants who come here lawfully and properly. My family and I had to wait 15 years in the lines to immigrant to this country from my deteriorating homeland. Again, named any nation that help individual's living standard high and welcome more immigrants?