Ghogiel Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Recognise the genocide of the Native Americans or not, it seems to suggest by it's continued existence, America justifies itself. In the same way something like the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq is a legitimate form of expansion, if the States decided to break it's treaty and not intervene, then occupation of it would be justified. Or as was mentioned Hitlers conquest of Europe. Or China of tibet, or Israel's foundation and displacement of Palestine. I find the justifications thin for all of them personally. Basically it boils down to 'might is right'. Which is a philosophy I personally don't agree with. Just so that I am clear, if no one contested Hitler's invasion and occupation of Poland, Belgium, Norway, Denmark and France then it was justified? You are going to need a long rope to climb out of this logic hole.Yes exactly. It is not the hole I am in though. Because I stated very clearly I strongly disagree. It is those who have said that America, or any country or state, is legitimised simply by "right of conquest." Displacement, subjugation to rule, or genocide of the indigenous populaces aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconix Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Edit: Whoops, Ghogiel beat me to it. Edited August 25, 2011 by draconix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurielius Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Recognise the genocide of the Native Americans or not, it seems to suggest by it's continued existence, America justifies itself. In the same way something like the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq is a legitimate form of expansion, if the States decided to break it's treaty and not intervene, then occupation of it would be justified. Or as was mentioned Hitlers conquest of Europe. Or China of tibet, or Israel's foundation and displacement of Palestine. I find the justifications thin for all of them personally. Basically it boils down to 'might is right'. Which is a philosophy I personally don't agree with. Just so that I am clear, if no one contested Hitler's invasion and occupation of Poland, Belgium, Norway, Denmark and France then it was justified? You are going to need a long rope to climb out of this logic hole.Yes exactly. It is not the hole I am in though. Because I stated very clearly I strongly disagree. It is those who have said that America, or any country or state, is legitimised simply by "right of conquest." Displacement, subjugation to rule, or genocide of the indigenous populaces aside. The cavaet doesn't fly, you made an equivalence comparison..America justifies itself. In the same way something like the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq is a legitimate form of expansion, if the States decided to break it's treaty and not intervene, then occupation of it would be justified. Or as was mentioned Hitlers conquest of Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghogiel Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I don't understand your statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurielius Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I don't understand your statement?Your caveat about disapproval is moot after having made the basic comparison. That clear enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghogiel Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) So your point is? I still don't follow, well I do but please state your opinion why the comparison is something you disagree with, if you wish to contend it. Edited August 25, 2011 by Ghogiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconix Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) I'll try to help clarify...I'm pretty sure Ghogiel means "Justified" given the philosophy that "MIght is Right" is correct, which he and I agree is incorrect, which is the point he made earlier. Edited August 25, 2011 by draconix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurielius Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 So your point is? I still don't follow, well I do but please state your opinion why the comparison is something you disagree with, if you wish to contend it.Nope thats not how this works, you made the comparison you justify it. Just holding you to the standard that you are so fond of applying to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghogiel Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) So your point is? I still don't follow, well I do but please state your opinion why the comparison is something you disagree with, if you wish to contend it.Nope thats not how this works, you made the comparison you justify it. Just holding you to the standard that you are so fond of applying to others.No. I don't think it is justifiable. On the contrary you might need to justify it. Aurielius said: Occupation by right of conquest is as old as civilization, we took the continent by fair means and foul and it's ours now. edit: I was going to hold this one back, but just so you can come back with a better justification of might is right than a logical fallacy, argument from antiquity Edited August 25, 2011 by Ghogiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyYou Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Might does indeed make right. At least, in a few cases. Now, the methods that are used may be despicable, but, the end result is what matters. At this point, the US of A is an established, accepted, (for the most part) nation. Now, given all the arguments I see here that the US isn't legitimate, (and has no right to define anyone as an Illegal immigrant, since, technically we ALL are.....) what do you propose? Shall we all go back to our countries of 'origin'? For most folks, a place they have never been, and likely don't even speak the language? Shall pushing 400,000,0000 people go back to Europe? Africa? Wherever? Never gonna happen. Pointless to argue. We are talking illegal immigration here. Whether or not the US has the "right" to do anything about it at all is a non-starter. We are here, we own the land, regardless of whether you agree with it or not. Try passing your argument in front of congress, they will laugh you all the way to the nut house. So, all that nonsense aside..... What should happen with illegal immigrants? Shall we actually enforce the laws on the books? The fed doesn't seem to think so, and get offended when the states take matters into their own hands, because the fed won't get off their duffs. Why do you think we are now seeing a rash of states passing their own immigration statutes? Even ALABAMA. And they are landlocked by their own country...... WTF? Sure, illegals do jobs that americans would rather not. Of course, the mere fact that they ARE illegals means the folks that hire them can pay them significantly less than what an american would expect, doesn't have to worry about silly things like OSHA, or workers rights. They are little more than slaves. They put up with wages, hours, and treatment, that american workers won't. In turn they get money tax free, and americans get cheaper food prices...... so, most authorities turn a blind eye to it. There are also migrant workers that are here legally. Those folks are more than welcome to whatever work they choose to do. Claiming there aren't enough americans to do the job is incorrect as well. We have a boat load of folks that USED to work in the manufacturing sector..... try and find a product that actually says "Made in America" on it anymore....... and you will understand just why we have so many unemployed. Bring our manufacturing back. Put america back to work, and a lot of the things the politicians are whining about now, will become non-issues as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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