draconix Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Appeal to authority and a bandwagon argument? This is the platform upon which you will construct your arguments?YES. Yes it is. Founded on the FACTUAL statements of our founding fathers. It is my opinion based on solid and verifiable and well-documented facts.Okay, I just wanted to be clear on that. The founding fathers were just people, and people can be wrong. Their statements regarding the truth of natural rights is not factual because of who they are, nor does the fact that they founded this country prove that what they thought was factual. However, these arbitrarily chosen rights aren't good enough for me. These rights are good, but not granted by nature inalienably. If you have other evidence to support your claim that these rights are natural and inalienable, please feel free to bring it to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo 2 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 As you admit, you have a fallacious argument. You can use circular reasoning to prove your facts all day if you want, I advise against it. You keep asserting that these founding fathers are writing down inalienable rights, but have yet to demonstrate that they actually are. Can you prove any of your assertions are true without its premise being its own conclusion? And I am the only one basing my arguement on facts and verifiable documentation and NOT relying on my personal opinions. I'm debating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghogiel Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 As you admit, you have a fallacious argument. You can use circular reasoning to prove your facts all day if you want, I advise against it. You keep asserting that these founding fathers are writing down inalienable rights, but have yet to demonstrate that they actually are. Can you prove any of your assertions are true without its premise being its own conclusion? And I am the only one basing my arguement on facts and verifiable documentation and NOT relying on my personal opinions. I'm debating.So, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyYou Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Ok, let me try this again then.... Try and read exactly what I am saying here. Its really quite simple: The topic of this thread is: "What are people entitled to?" My response to that is: "People are entitled to whatever their current form of government says they are. Which can and will change over time." You can quote anyone you like, and any document you like, but, I would point out, those people/documents were generally written by, or in order to, people in government/set up a government. I find it especially funny to see folks talking about how "all men are free", but, back at home, they have a collection of slaves, that are decidedly NOT free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo 2 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 If you have other evidence to support your claim that these rights are natural and inalienable, please feel free to bring it to the table. Odd, yet to see anything factual from you, yet you want more facts from me. @Ghogielhaven't seen anything for you yet either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghogiel Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) You can quote anyone you like, and any document you like, but, I would point out, those people/documents were generally written by, or in order to, people in government/set up a government. I find it especially funny to see folks talking about how "all men are free", but, back at home, they have a collection of slaves, that are decidedly NOT free.Quite hilarious that. We could stop taking what they said out of context and perverting it to our own ends, and argue these rights as actually envisioned.. Kendo @Ghogielhaven't seen anything for you yet either. It's called logic. Something I haven't seen from you. try it. You debunked your entire argument on logical fallacies. You keep asserting you are stating facts. lol So, no? Edited September 17, 2011 by Ghogiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo 2 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 It's called logic. Something I haven't seen from you. try it. THAT is a personal attack. Expected better from you. It is one thing to question tactics or strategy or sources, but that's over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghogiel Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 It's called logic. Something I haven't seen from you. try it. THAT is a personal attack. Expected better from you. You're entire argument is a logical fallacy. so, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconix Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Odd, yet to see anything factual from you, yet you want more facts from me. I'm not the person making the claim that we have natural rights. I'm making the claim that we either do not, or if we do they cannot be determined. Because it is impossible to prove the non-existence of something, the burden of proof is on you to show me otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyYou Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 You can quote anyone you like, and any document you like, but, I would point out, those people/documents were generally written by, or in order to, people in government/set up a government. I find it especially funny to see folks talking about how "all men are free", but, back at home, they have a collection of slaves, that are decidedly NOT free.Quite hilarious that. We could stop taking what they said out of context and perverting it to our own ends, and argue these rights as actually envisioned.. Kendo @Ghogielhaven't seen anything for you yet either. It's called logic. Something I haven't seen from you. try it. You debunked your entire argument on logical fallacies. You keep asserting you are stating facts. lol So, no? Ok, well, lets look at it: ALL men are created equal. Maybe they were created that way, but they sure as shootin' didn't STAY that way..... or is that the caveat? Or were there varying degrees of "equal"? some were more equal than others?? Then we have: that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness but, they left off the caveat: unless of course, you are of a race which we deem inferior, in which case, you aren't really "men" anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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