Legion! - Great concept, Horrible execution.. What can

[Grandchamp1989]

be done modding wise and in further FA installments to even the faction score.

 

*English isn't my first language, so please bear with me - Long read coming up* ;)

 

Lets go back for a second, to Fallout 3 and take a look at how they managed the primary factions: Enclave and BOS. While Enclave was CLEARLY the more advanced faction the BOS had two trumph cards: Liberty Prime and The Lone Wanderer. It made the end feel kinda balanced, while Enclave dominated most of the map for 80% of the time, they got absolutely demolished near the end.

 

Now lets take a look at the disaster... I mean faction called Legion:

 

Map - They get an unimportant corner of the map, sure they rely on raiding tactics but they

A) don't respawn (Nelson, Cottonwood etc)

B) Let an NCR outpost dwell right beside their main base of operation! get in there and burn it down, dammit!

C) you mean to tell me they don't want to take advantage of a perfectly good Goldmine right beside Cottonwood, when they got Gold as a currency and slaves to work the mine? No, that's just lazy execution!

 

Vendors - Sigh... Every important vendor is either in NCR territory or NCR owned (Gun Runners, Crimson Caravan, Hoover Dam Quartermaster, Lucy, 188 Trading post.. I could go on) If you side with Legion you get the pleasure of having your weapons confiscated, have the guard say you belong on a cross and then talk with the most useless vendor in the whole game. One you can buy 1 purified water and a 9mm weapons mod from. THAT is just lacy execution! Even the Blacksmith is useless, lol.

 

Quests - Am I wrong when I say it's a 45:7 ratio favouring the NCR? You could here make the argument that there's more NCR personal to kill for experience and stuff to loot. I definitely agree with that, HOWEVER, when there's SO much potential for great Legion quests like:

Help bring in slaves (Paradise Falls Style)

Participate in raiding parties (Bitter Springs style)

Create a line of quests revolving sabotage and make it lead up to the big ''sabotage of the monorail''

Create a line of assassination quests, which should lead up to the big killing og President Kimball

Help further the Legion's advance on the map and watch legion camps grow as you do so

Expand on the Arena (Oblivion style)

 

Then there's NO excuse to just have 7 measly quests available for the Courier if he supports The Bull.

 

Companion Side with legion and you lose Boone. You'll end up destroying the BOS bunker so Veronica is likely to leave, and if you got evil karma doing Legion's dirty work then you can say goodbye to Cass aswell. Oh, Arcade will hate you too.

 

Any Legion companions? Rex was made in Big Mt. he worked as a legion dog, however, and with Lupus brain he could be looked at as a legion companion. Notice that even though you're vilified by legion lupus/rex will still follow you.

 

Biased much? lol. Atleast the modding community gave us Joshua Graham as a companion - a former Legion Legate. A big thanks to the modding community!

 

Trumph personel Legion got these badasses called Centurions, check this.. They're totally cool - It's so hard to become a Centurion that Dead Sea didn't become one despite almost singlehandedly taking down an enemy tribe. They're so cool they use armor of their fallen enemies to create their own super armor. There's just 1 of these badasses through the entire Mojave and... DAMMIT Boone, you just 1 shot'd the Centurion, now what?

 

Caesar - Excellent character, well fleshed out, one of the best in the game. He's the very symbol the Legion's strength, his head would look great over my Courier's bed, yes? Pop a turbo and a slasher, and make it happen, it's THAT easy.

 

As I played through Legion I was thinking to myself... Where's the Liberty Prime of this faction? Where's the superior numbers or brutal strength of The Bull. You hear stories of Legion bravery in battle, but all I see is Legion Veterans run like little girls away from me once I head-shot a few of his friends. Horrible execution!

 

Here's my gripe: Don't give us 4 factions and make one of them so clunky and underwhelming they become a joke. Who gonna side with that, lol? They gave NCR Everything. The biased towards this faction is unbelievable. OR you can choose to fight for Las Vegas with House or do it YOURSELF (Independant). Legion is never really a choice, they're the very definition of a villian-a**hole. Except this bully gets owned by everyone around him, which should contradict lore quite a bit, yes?

 

GREAT concept, horrible execution.

 

Your thoughts, ideas, rants about legion? Opposing arguments are very welcomed, just keep it respectful ;)

Edited October 14, 2011 by Grandchamp1989

[saintjimmyz]

The whole 'Legion are evil' thing seems to be skin deep alone IMO. Sure, they are guilty of some horrible things by todays standards, but the Legion never kills people for pleasure; they kill out of neccesity, or to make a point. You may well think that the killings are done without reason (think Nipton) but the Legion has its reasons, valid or not, and they certainly are not carried out because of sadistic tendancies. In that respect, Bethesda/Obsidian has fleshed out the Legion remarkably well. This has been balanced out by the number of NCR weaknesses, such as mass murder (Bitter Springs), corruption, cowardice, a large number of traitors etc etc. This all adds up to make the NCR/Legion conflict far more complex than a simple good/evil one; I find it hard to define which one of the two is actually the good one and which one is evil.

 

However, the developers decided not to include much in the way of Legion presence in the Mojave, which is very disappointing. Simply by taking the existing Legion outposts, adding in a few named soldiers and a few quests, the Legion could have been made much more of a viable option IMO. However, you must remember that the Legion is stuck on the other side of the Colorado, the Dam is blocked off to them, and only small raiding parties can cross; so having proper Legion settlements would not be logical. The only way to include the Legion properly into the game would be to greatly expand the desert the other side of the river, which would take the focus further away from New Vegas. I can understand why the developers decided not to pursue this option; I just wished they expanded the existing Legion presence some more.

[ModelV]

You know when you become accepted they stop saying you should be a cross right?

[minngarm]

Right you would think Caesar himself would see the merit in having yet another courier in his employ and send you out on more missions when you start to serve the Legion. While the geography makes snese of it all as posted above. It really could stand to have a bit more depth. Hell even just adding a guy training at the camp who talks about how he joined the Legion after his family was butchered at Bitter Springs, and he was left a orphan would add a hell of a lot more character to the Legion.

[Grandchamp1989]

The whole 'Legion are evil' thing seems to be skin deep alone IMO. Sure, they are guilty of some horrible things by todays standards, but the Legion never kills people for pleasure; they kill out of neccesity, or to make a point. You may well think that the killings are done without reason (think Nipton) but the Legion has its reasons, valid or not, and they certainly are not carried out because of sadistic tendancies. In that respect, Bethesda/Obsidian has fleshed out the Legion remarkably well. This has been balanced out by the number of NCR weaknesses, such as mass murder (Bitter Springs), corruption, cowardice, a large number of traitors etc etc. This all adds up to make the NCR/Legion conflict far more complex than a simple good/evil one; I find it hard to define which one of the two is actually the good one and which one is evil.

 

However, the developers decided not to include much in the way of Legion presence in the Mojave, which is very disappointing. Simply by taking the existing Legion outposts, adding in a few named soldiers and a few quests, the Legion could have been made much more of a viable option IMO. However, you must remember that the Legion is stuck on the other side of the Colorado, the Dam is blocked off to them, and only small raiding parties can cross; so having proper Legion settlements would not be logical. The only way to include the Legion properly into the game would be to greatly expand the desert the other side of the river, which would take the focus further away from New Vegas. I can understand why the developers decided not to pursue this option; I just wished they expanded the existing Legion presence some more.

 

Excellent points. I don't find Legion ''evil'' either, I get what they're about. What I like about them is that they don't mask or hide who and what they are. The Bull is all about brute natural strength and stability - whatever the cost.

I understand that they can only get to the other side of Colorado through boat, but the very Fort is highly lackluster IMO. Add to that the fact that there's fundamental flaws like legionaires running like little girls from a battle and the horrible way you get treated even as an ally of the Legion...All in all, Highly underwhelming and I really think Obisidian dropped the ball when they made Legion. I'm happy that I'm not the only one who think so, but don't mind opposing views either :)

Edited October 12, 2011 by Grandchamp1989

[Shantih]

FYI the Legion wasn't created by Obsidian. The concept had been created for Van Buren (the original Fallout 3 project by Black Isle).

 

I find a lot of rationalisation going on in this thread. As bad as the NCR may be at times it is hard to pretend that it is as bad as the Legion. No amount of prevarication can justify or make acceptable the fact that the Legion is relying on cruelty and barbarism to impose a new order on the Wastes.

 

The end cannot justify the means. At least not in a civilized society.

 

Civilized people like the NCR may well put you on trial but they won't crucify you for fun nor would they set up a lottery to determine who will die and who will survive (while potentially ending brutally maimed like Boxcars).

 

The major difference is that the NCR doesn't use the same approach and when NCR troops do they feel bad about it. Bitter Springs is seen by many people from the NCR as a shameful disaster. You won't find any character affiliated to the Legion who will say the same about Nipton or other places like Nelson.

 

I agree that the NCR is not good by definition but the Legion can't be said not to be evil... Of course that depends on your definition of evil. Facist, brutal dictatorships are evil in my books. People who condone torture and ethnic cleansing (remember Karl's journal?) are most certainly evil too.

 

That is without bringing up the gender issue.

 

Be it as it may I do agree that the Legion questline could have been fleshed out a little more. As it is there is no denying that the game is partial to NCR allied characters or characters who remain somewhat neutral towards the NCR.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Shantih

[minngarm]

The only way we can flesh out the legion/legion territory more is by going there. We would need someone to painstakingly detail out an area east that is under legion control and has at least one long standing legion settlement. The Mojave is the front line for the Legion, they dont live there, they came there, just like the NCR. The differance is the general population is against the Legion as they crucify and butcher civilians. We need to go into Legion territory and interact with already established towns and villages that view the Legion as their protectors and saviors.

[ModelV]

I think people are forgetting about Moore here. She will yell at you if you find a peaceful solution to a problem and prefers you brutally slaughter a tribe or group. A person like that being put in charge of anything shows a lot.

 

Also Nipton was...well it was a sinkhole a Prostitute town full of people who in some view points also be seen as evil. Nelson was a NCR military town which is a justifiable target.

 

There is no way to cut bittersprings to favor the NCR im sorry. Civs come through the guys on the radio tell you to start shooting and you shoot. Personally in that situation i wouldnt fire and id shoot the troops around me that do fire. We have a similar issue in a certain real life war going on right now. I dont care if the CO didnt know they were civs what i care about is that the Soldier's carried out that order and that people like Moore get to be in charge of these people.

 

 

The Legion meets violence with violence. Arizona and New Mexico are real hellish places where such tactics are a necessity.

[Shantih]

Soldiers are meant to follow orders, not question them. They are train to do what they are told on the battlefield because their survival depends on following orders.

 

Don't forget that what happened in Bitter Springs was the main reason why Boone left the military.

 

I agree about Moore being a bastard. In fact playing the game it seems obvious that the NCR is dealing with several factions inside its military; the butchers like Moore and Oliver and the sensible ones like Hsu and Hanlon.

 

Bittersprings is meant to be a proof that the actions of the NCR can be as bad as the Legion's. The major difference is that it's one occasion and that many NCR soldiers don't agree with that line of action (and won't even be willing to talk about it) whereas the Legion is responsible for countless similar massacres and nobody inside the Legion would ever dream of questioning Caesar's orders.

 

Also Nipton was...well it was a sinkhole a Prostitute town full of people who in some view points also be seen as evil.

 

So is New Vegas... Casinos, hookers, drug dealers, criminals... Are they all to be considered as being "evil"? Following that logic it would be alright for the Legion to slaughter everybody in New Vegas and put them on crosses.

 

Now consider how the NCR is dealing with the Vegas situation. The NCR made a treaty with House so NCR soldiers can't carry weapons on the Strip and instead they establish a partnership wih House making New Vegas a resort for NCR soldiers and civilians alike. Don't forget that they also try to set up a relief program to feed people in Freeside (it may not go smoothly but they are trying).

 

As a Freeside resident would you rather have the legion or the NCR calling the shots?

 

The Legion meets violence with violence. Arizona and New Mexico are real hellish places where such tactics are a necessity.

 

The Mojave is a violent place and it's pretty much the same anywhere in the Fallout world. The NCR is violent. The major difference is that the Legion is always trying to outdo its competition by displaying senseless gratuitous violence. It may act as a deterrent for the weak but there is no way that this can be seen as being "right" or justifiable on moral grounds.

 

You may have to fight fire with fire, but the moment you start indulging into senseless acts of violence you're no longer acting in self defence. Think about Joshua Graham, his own crusade is a perfect example of that mindset. There is nothing righteous about his fight and the narrative at the end makes sure we don't miss that point.

[Grandchamp1989]

Soldiers are meant to follow orders, not question them. They are train to do what they are told on the battlefield because their survival depends on following orders.

 

Don't forget that what happened in Bitter Springs was the main reason why Boone left the military.

 

I agree about Moore being a bastard. In fact playing the game it seems obvious that the NCR is dealing with several factions inside its military; the butchers like Moore and Oliver and the sensible ones like Hsu and Hanlon.

 

Bittersprings is meant to be a proof that the actions of the NCR can be as bad as the Legion's. The major difference is that it's one occasion and that many NCR soldiers don't agree with that line of action (and won't even be willing to talk about it) whereas the Legion is responsible for countless similar massacres and nobody inside the Legion would ever dream of questioning Caesar's orders.

 

Also Nipton was...well it was a sinkhole a Prostitute town full of people who in some view points also be seen as evil.

 

So is New Vegas... Casinos, hookers, drug dealers, criminals... Are they all to be considered as being "evil"? Following that logic it would be alright for the Legion to slaughter everybody in New Vegas and put them on crosses.

 

Now consider how the NCR is dealing with the Vegas situation. The NCR made a treaty with House so NCR soldiers can't carry weapons on the Strip and instead they establish a partnership wih House making New Vegas a resort for NCR soldiers and civilians alike. Don't forget that they also try to set up a relief program to feed people in Freeside (it may not go smoothly but they are trying).

 

As a Freeside resident would you rather have the legion or the NCR calling the shots?

 

The Legion meets violence with violence. Arizona and New Mexico are real hellish places where such tactics are a necessity.

 

The Mojave is a violent place and it's pretty much the same anywhere in the Fallout world. The NCR is violent. The major difference is that the Legion is always trying to outdo its competition by displaying senseless gratuitous violence. It may act as a deterrent for the weak but there is no way that this can be seen as being "right" or justifiable on moral grounds.

 

You may have to fight fire with fire, but the moment you start indulging into senseless acts of violence you're no longer acting in self defence. Think about Joshua Graham, his own crusade is a perfect example of that mindset. There is nothing righteous about his fight and the narrative at the end makes sure we don't miss that point.

 

 

The NCR is corrupt to the bone, they don't follow one mindset and as Ulysses points out, the two headed bear will suffer from its own greed. Two heads, is one too many.

 

Like Legion will likely end up suffering for their brutal ways, so will the NCR:

Corruption at the highest level

Taxes set way too high resulting in good people having to move from their home and livelyhood

The murder of bitter springs (And likely quite a few similar incidents)

Fast expansion resulting in multiple enemies like Khans, BOS and a tense relation with Vegas.

 

This is how revolutions gets started and it's only a matter of time. They try to please their citizins with hollow privileges like legalized gambling, alcohol and drugs. This only creates a number of other problems like seen with the junkie trooper in Forlorn Hope and Freeside.

 

Legion live off of being more brutal than anyone else, but once a tribe is succesfully absorbed into The Legion they scare everyone straight. There's no gambling, no raiders in their lands, no drug addicts or alcoholics. Taxes are reasonable. Trade can flow succesfully, everyone follow the same guidelines, and while far from perfect, they don't mask who they are and offer something WAY better than a wasteland of deathclaws, raiders and mutants - Raul himself don't mind Legion for these reasons.

 

I'm well aware of their history with slaves, rape, sexism and torture for everyone who don't follow their guidelines. But that in itself have been human history since the very beginning. Rome, Feudal Japan, Germany 1940s, America before the civil wars etc. All these were necessary atrocities any country in todays world got a history of doing. Don't expect post apocalyptic people to act any different. It's a mean to an end really. Just wish Obsidian made more an effort into showing the strength and good sides of the legion.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Grandchamp1989