Shantih Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Reading your post I can't see what is so great about the Legion; no booze or substances, no fun, no freedom... No wonder they set up crosses on slow Friday nights. :happy: Sure the NCR is corrupt but it's something that can be compared to the world today. Some persons are still trying to "fight the good fight" and are striving to make a difference and even if the smart money in New Vegas isn't on them it doesn't mean that their hearts are not in the right places. I understand the whole "survival of the fittest" theme going on in the background. The problem is that there is nothing good that can come out of the atrocities that the Legion represents and has come to symbolize in the eyes of wastelanders. "Give me liberty or give me death..." The difference is deeply philosophical. I understand what you're saying but as an individual I can't possibly subscribe to the "necessary evil" rationalisation or "the end justifies the means" logic. We have to agree to disagree on this one. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marharth Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 If the legion was not sexist, and it was more like Rome, I would support them over the NCR. I don't like either one of them though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandchamp1989 Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) Reading your post I can't see what is so great about the Legion; no booze or substances, no fun, no freedom... No wonder they set up crosses on slow Friday nights. :happy: Sure the NCR is corrupt but it's something that can be compared to the world today. Some persons are still trying to "fight the good fight" and are striving to make a difference and even if the smart money in New Vegas isn't on them it doesn't mean that their hearts are not in the right places. I understand the whole "survival of the fittest" theme going on in the background. The problem is that there is nothing good that can come out of the atrocities that the Legion represents and has come to symbolize in the eyes of wastelanders. "Give me liberty or give me death..." The difference is deeply philosophical. I understand what you're saying but as an individual I can't possibly subscribe to the "necessary evil" rationalisation or "the end justifies the means" logic. We have to agree to disagree on this one. :thumbsup: Lol, don't get me wrong I get what you're saying! Life be kinda dull no doubt. Love the Patrick Henry reference ;) It's really a matter of do you want more of a ''modern and highly corrupt society'' or do you want a more of a ''medieval, harsh society with more stability'' Being the history buff I am I can't but admire the concept of legion and facepalm over the lack execution in making them. :) I really think NW was meant for you to join the NCR and kick the invading ''rapists'' out of the Colorado area. This biased is a fail in my book, then they might aswell make it FA3 style and give us just 1 choice but make it as good as possible. And lets face it, FA3 was damn good! Edited October 13, 2011 by Grandchamp1989 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquillus Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 The whole 'Legion are evil' thing seems to be skin deep alone IMO. Sure, they are guilty of some horrible things by todays standards, but the Legion never kills people for pleasure; they kill out of neccesity, or to make a point. You may well think that the killings are done without reason (think Nipton) but the Legion has its reasons, valid or not, and they certainly are not carried out because of sadistic tendancies. In that respect, Bethesda/Obsidian has fleshed out the Legion remarkably well. This has been balanced out by the number of NCR weaknesses, such as mass murder (Bitter Springs), corruption, cowardice, a large number of traitors etc etc. This all adds up to make the NCR/Legion conflict far more complex than a simple good/evil one; I find it hard to define which one of the two is actually the good one and which one is evil.The specific example of Nipton kinda refutes the notion that the Legion's cruelty is dispassionate. Sure, wipe out a profligate sinkhole of a town - bit harsh, but perhaps a justifiable move considering their worldview. But the whole business about the lottery reeks of sadism. You make a good point that it's perhaps more complex than good vs. evil... but the harshness of their methods aside the Legion are still extremely sexist and practice slavery - not the relatively benign slavery as understood by ancient Greeks/Romans but the barbaric Atlantic model. As for Bitter Springs, many NCR-affiliated folk are known to express unease over it, which no matter what the top brass is like at least suggests that the NCR as a whole has a much more humane culture than the Legion. They try to please their citizins with hollow privileges like legalized gambling, alcohol and drugs. This only creates a number of other problems like seen with the junkie trooper in Forlorn Hope and Freeside.I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. I'd instead argue that the fact that no one in the Legion seems to have vices other than arrogance and bloodlust indicates a much less tolerant society, something that's also confirmed by Caesar himself. Is a society that actively roots out what it considers to be weak and unworthy really a society worthy of admiration? Speaking for myself that's a solid 'no'. To flesh out the Legion I agree, more Legion vendors would be nice, as would less NCR-affiliated vendors and places. It makes sense from a lore perspective but it can make aligning with the Legion feel masochistic. Places like the 188 really don't need to be NCR-affiliated. Making the Legion less monolithic is also a good idea. I mean with the NCR you have sub-factions with different goals (Chief Hanlon for example), different dispositions (the more humane Hsu versus the hardliner Moore), and NCR-affiliated individuals complaining about the NCR (Boone, Cass). I guess it makes sense as the Legion we see in the Mojave is a military vanguard as opposed to an occupation force like the NCR. But still for gameplay reasons it'd be nice to see the Legion with the same kind of variety and number of NPCs. Also, more quests! Even short ones similar to the 'Bitter Springs Infirmary Blues' or 'I Don't Hurt Anymore'. I can think of a dozen famous Roman quotes off the top of my head that would make great quest names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minngarm Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Well I suck at making territory in GECK as yet, but If anyones up for a mod compilation to bring more life into the legion point of view I'm game. First would be picking where in Legion territory to go thats not insanely far away as to make the timeframe unrealistic. Then to make the territory itself, and then settlements, encampments, patrols, and all those other tidbits that make an area worth exploring. I'm thinking around the size of OWB if not a little bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marharth Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Yea a mod that is really needed is a legion expansion mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquillus Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Yeah, I'd definitely download a Legion expansion mod. I don't think it's even necessary to add any new land, I've gone swimming in the Colorado and it seems like there's a lot of unused land near the river that's simply off-limits because of invisible walls (the one thing I really really dislike about FNV). One thing I forgot to say: Legion companion! I mean, there's an NCR companion, a BoS companion, an Enclave (sort of) companion, a Super Mutant companion, a ghoul companion... but no Legion companion. I have no idea how to make companions myself, but Silus could probably be modded to be a companion. It'd make sense - he's grateful that you sprung him out, but he's also afraid of Caesar's wrath. His quest could be getting Caesar's forgiveness or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minngarm Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Couldnt use that land even if its accessable, wouldnt fit in. Legion townships are further back east. Were in/on the border of NCR territory we have to shift right to get into the Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModelV Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 The leaders doing acts of evil while the majority of the lower people(voters) disagree with what they are doing is proof that the 2 headed bear is a flag of tyranny. "They try to please their citizins with hollow privileges like legalized gambling, alcohol and drugs. This only creates a number of other problems like seen with the junkie trooper in Forlorn Hope and Freeside." Drugs are not legal in the NCR. However this just created a wide black market(see my theory on Jet and the NCR and the great khan quests) because the NCR wont take the time to crack down on crime and most of those drug dealers have gotten to the point where they can just bribe everything away. NCR is a great example of how bad Capitalism and Democracy can get however this isnt to bash democracy or capitalism as all other options arent that good either(Socialism and communism are a nightmare.) and i sense a revolution. "I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. I'd instead argue that the fact that no one in the Legion seems to have vices other than arrogance and bloodlust indicates a much less tolerant society, something that's also confirmed by Caesar himself. Is a society that actively roots out what it considers to be weak and unworthy really a society worthy of admiration? Speaking for myself that's a solid 'no'." Again with thinking the Legion are violent and mindless raiders. Vices. Are. Bad. Drugs and alcohol are bad they dont just change your stats they have terrible side effects long term and short term. The Legion's views against drugs an alcohol should be instantly seen as a good thing. Also people dont require having a vice not everything has to be addicted to something psychological or otherwise. Please be aware that in modern time we are in a society flooded with excessive entertainment as seen by the fact we are even talking to each other about this right now. Regarding Nipton:Well if your able to decipher the frumentarii's cryptic speech impediment youll see why the lottery is...well brilliant and not actually sadistic at all. The Legion were out numbered at any time the tons folk and the powder gangers could have overrun the Legion troops and stopped they lottery stopped the killing as people were dragged away to die. But they didnt it was designed to show how much of a fragmented community-less and cowardice the people of Nipton were. They could have stopped it but because they only cared for themselves they didnt. Also its incredibly effective psychological warfare which was again the whole point of the attack as Nipton is pretty far away. Now about adding more Legion content: Ulysses was originally the only Legion oriented companion and was supposed to reinforce the faction system but they have to strip him out so this could explain some lacking of Legion... As for a new Legion companion perhaps Dialogue writing would be best left to someone somewhat Legion siding. Like me? Or perhaps Marharth if he didnt speak in one liners... I say this because im getting the feeling the point of more Legion content is an attempt to show the Legion's good side. I think if we do a Legion companion it would have to be a new character. *Story writing system engaging!!!* *Breaks out Van Buran material!" Perhaps we should all attempt to locate a modder with the skills necessary to create such a companion. Our meaningless bickering of who is better may actually yield some fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandchamp1989 Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 One thing I forgot to say: Legion companion! I mean, there's an NCR companion, a BoS companion, an Enclave (sort of) companion, a Super Mutant companion, a ghoul companion... but no Legion companion. I have no idea how to make companions myself, but Silus could probably be modded to be a companion. It'd make sense - he's grateful that you sprung him out, but he's also afraid of Caesar's wrath. His quest could be getting Caesar's forgiveness or something. That's another EXCELLENT argument, and one I added to my first post. I like the idea. Maybe even give us Vulpes Inculta? or one of their Frumentarii's to help out, they're undercover agents and would be able to blend in everywhere. If you become liked by NCR you get an emergency radio to either get an NCR ranger or Trooper companion! This will stack with your other two companions lol. Add to that the fact that you can recruit a former 1st recon sniper (Boone) and you got youself a pretty effective NCR killing team. What's the legion equivalent to this again? that's right... There is none. Lazy execution Obsidian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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